The way to a Dominant's heart

[alice_underneath]

I believe this happened with Alice when I read a post of hers and had missed the couple of posts she had mentioned being vanilla

Please allow me to clarify further.

I am a woman who has come to believe that she is sexually submissive. For this reason, I do not actually consider myself "vanilla".

However, I do not call myself a "sub", for two reasons.

#1. I have never had anything but vanilla experiences.

#2. I have trust issues where men are concerned, and I am not sure I would have the strength and/or courage necessary to actually submit to someone.

So what am I? *shrugs* A sexually submissive woman in a vanilla marriage. That's the best way I can describe it.

Alice

 

[RJMasters]

No, I don't think you are getting it, and I suspect you have not noticed many of the posts I speak of as some were before your time, but many have been since, even recent months. Also I suspect as you are not a moderator you don't have occasion to read each post or as near to as possible. They not only relate to things such as caning, but also how people can expect to feel after such events or in a D/s relationship, often from people who don't even have the experience of online. I have even actually only discovered it a couple of times when I have commented on something I did not ever know of happening the way which a poster has described or advised a newbie on, to then be told by the poster they actually have no experience, or only online, but this is what they think it would be like. They do not add that in their original advice, so yes, it is misleading and I get the impression it is done so with a purpose. From memory. I believe this happened with Alice when I read a post of hers and had missed the couple of posts she had mentioned being vanilla, instead seeing a lot of posts that did not mention it, and so mistakenly thought she was talking from a postion of having experience of whatever it was being discussed...after that she began mentioning she did not have experience but that she was saying how she felt or thought which IMHO is fine. What I am fed up with is being told by vanilla and onliners who come here, that I should not mention I am in a RL relationship or have RL experience. Why not? It is relevent when I mention it because I am speaking of my experience and answering what has been asked or is being discussed.

Another time I mention RL and online as ways of being are when I mention our current discussions with prospective subs and Dominants for play. You know what the funny thing is? I have never been wrong in my initial assessment of them when they have no experience and when asked, admit it is limited to fantasy, sometimes online, and porn...often even by reading a profile alone I pick up on it....know why? Because I have extensive RL experience (and online though not of the calibre of 'oh, that hurt when you spanked me Master' type, and once only in an effort to learn and move to RL) which usually makes it easy to pick those who don't in a moment. Do we discard them once that is discovered? No, we actually make first contact with some who have no experience, and they are not passed over unless they have a bad attitude or feel that RL is going to be the same as online etc., and insist they don't need safe words, and show signs they are very into unsafe play and not listening.

When I start telling people they should not mention they are online players, or they are vanilla, or they don't even know if they are interested in BDSM or D/s, then I expect I should not have a problem with those people chastising me for saying anything about RL, especially when it is relevant. At this point in time I have encouraged everyone to say what their experience is and relate it to others...as I said, if they have a problem with my or anyone's RL experiences and mentioning it when discussing anything on this or any BDSM board, then might I suggest the problem is not mine but theirs and they should begin to look at why they feel so strongly that I and others with experience should try and hide that fact, while they post however they like, often omitting the fact they are not speaking from any experience apart from their fantasies. Could part of the problem be as Alice keeps saying in her posts, that they feel they are clueless or not relating to what is being discussed?...not my problem and as I am sure you will agree, everyone here with experience does try then to explain matters in a friendly way. This is a BDSM board after all, not a RPF or a GB. Difference does not mean better or worse, but can make a hell of a lot of difference when talking about some topics, which is all I have ever said, but which some have an issue with and try to imply otherwise.

Catalina

Ok thank you for making that clear.... my question was why hasn't there been any action taken to split the RL'ers and the OL'ers into two different sections since this has been an ongoing problem for a long time and has resulted in many good people leaving.

As to you sharing your RL experiences...I am always thankful that you do, as I am others. There are many things you all do in RL I would never do over the Internet, because it isn't practical or safe. In fact I would warn many of those who have only online relationships, to take care in reading RL'ers posts and not assume that what they do is ok to do online for obvious safety reasons as you have mentioned.

As a suggestion, you might consider adding some instruction to the board's description that addresses all onliners to ensure they put proper disclaimer when they post if their experience is only online. Maybe that would help clear up any confusion. So that when one onliner is sharing an online expereince with another onliner, we can identify that we are speaking to only ourselves. And that any online expereience that would be valid for other onliners to hear, would be able to know. Because you never know that they might want to try something similar online with their online submissive and might be asking for advice from those, who have been online for many years, some of the SSC things we have done. Maybe even want to share how it felt to do it.

 

[Blushing Bottom]

Being & Nothingness existential philosophy and the title of a work by Jean Paul Satre.

What I meant to refer to in using it was that a submissive should give her all, her being (exiatance) and her nothingness (reason for existance) as there are those who believe there may be no reason to "be" just a big nothing behind the why of it all. And if that be the case then I say play on.

Thank You Blushing Bottom.

There was some other comment posted saying something about a poem being in there somewhere.

I remember when I started this thread I really wasn't sure what I was looking to do. I just sort of blurted it out...Nice to know that even blurts can be poetic in a sense. I have a whole volume of discourse upon submission of three levels Mind, Heart and Body(similar to what you mentioned the mind, body and soul), perhaps one day I will get around to publishing it. Of course if you ever want to complicate something, as the saying goes, just give it to a man.

Let them...
Let them, I say!
Let them labor and toil under the hot sun in the fields
Scratching and clawing in the dirt till they are faint with sacrifice
I prefer to sit by the river and contemplate its submissive flow.


I would like to ask you a question reguarding your post ....

You wrote:

"To surrender mind, body and soul is the gift of being"

But then you added

"and nothingness"

Could you please explain to me what it is you meant by add this at the end. It may be that I just woke up and can't get the wheels turning to get my mind around it. Thank in advance for your time in doing so.

 

[RJMasters]

Being & Nothingness existential philosophy and the title of a work by Jean Paul Satre.

What I meant to refer to in using it was that a submissive should give her all, her being (exiatance) and her nothingness (reason for existance) as there are those who believe there may be no reason to "be" just a big nothing behind the why of it all. And if that be the case then I say play on.

Thank you I understand

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

deja vu .............

 

[alice_underneath]

As a suggestion, you might consider adding some instruction to the board's description that addresses all onliners to ensure they put proper disclaimer when they post <snip>

Nice graphics, RJ.

If I knew how to create this type of thing, I would make a blank box for the Clueless People (like... for example... me!)

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Nice graphics, RJ.

If I knew how to create this type of thing, I would make a blank box for the Clueless People (like... for example... me!)

Dammit Alice join the queue would you

oops I cussed again, bites lip HARD , ahhh better...lol

 

[alice_underneath]

Dammit Alice join the queue would you

oops I cussed again, bites lip HARD , ahhh better...lol

Under different life circumstances, I would be honored to join your "queue", Rebecca.

But since my circumstances are what they are..... *sigh*....... I'll settle for another pic of that Double L guy Feel free to PM it to me whenever you get the chance......

 

[catalina_francisco]

Ok thank you for making that clear.... my question was why hasn't there been any action taken to split the RL'ers and the OL'ers into two different sections since this has been an ongoing problem for a long time and has resulted in many good people leaving.

The reason it has not been split is because it has been discussed before and like the original splitting into Talk and Cafe was not popular with many (including me), nor was the idea of separating online and RL and trying to work out who went where (eg. RL though online mostly due to distance). Most did not want to divide people because they felt there was value in everyone's input, but the problem arises when from time to time people take exception to another's experience, most recently as I have been chastised for by onliners and vanillas, my having RL experience (yes, I have used it again) and daring to mention it in posting. If they don't want to hear about RL experiences, why are they on a BDSM board which was formed to discuss RL BDSM? I have never been a supporter of segregation or censorship and am not about to start now. Those who left did not leave because they objected to online people being on this forum (most had online experiences themselves), many left because they became tired of this same attitude I am dealing with once again now.

Sweet Dommes said it much better than I can in this post in this thread we started which perhaps you have missed reading through in your travels. It seems some think difference equates to better or worse, often the same basis for racist and homophobic sentiments. The difference is not the problem, the insistence one should hide who they are to make another more comfortable is, or in this situation the times when advice is offered on RL questions without the added information it is not based on any experience based knowledge and can thus if followed lead to problems or worse for the one doing the asking. If someone wants to know how something is in RL, they usually want to know from someone who has some knowledge of that presumeably through a similar experience themselves...if they want to know how to deal with an online relationship issue, they usually get the more informed answer and understanding from someone who has been there themselves...I have been in both situations, and it is vastly different.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Please allow me to clarify further.

I am a woman who has come to believe that she is sexually submissive. For this reason, I do not actually consider myself "vanilla".

However, I do not call myself a "sub", for two reasons.

#1. I have never had anything but vanilla experiences.

#2. I have trust issues where men are concerned, and I am not sure I would have the strength and/or courage necessary to actually submit to someone.

So what am I? *shrugs* A sexually submissive woman in a vanilla marriage. That's the best way I can describe it.

Alice

My apologies to you Alice as I misread your earlier post, partly because I had just dealt with another suggestion that I should not mention RL in posts. I am aware you have clarified your posts often, and seek knowledge respectfully which was why I was surprised when I misinterpreted your post. I thank you for trying to clarify my positon to others, but some just do not want to hear. I figure if people can't agree to disagree and tolerate each others differences on a porn board, what hope is there for world peace?

Catalina

 

[graceanne]

Nice graphics, RJ.

If I knew how to create this type of thing, I would make a blank box for the Clueless People (like... for example... me!)

LOL And me. But I liked the idea so here ya go.

 

[Slutacus]

It seems some think difference equates to better or worse, often the same basis for racist and homophobic sentiments. The difference is not the problem, the insistence one should hide who they are to make another more comfortable is, or in this situation the times when advice is offered on RL questions without the added information it is not based on any experience based knowledge and can thus if followed lead to problems or worse for the one doing the asking. If someone wants to know how something is in RL, they usually want to know from someone who has some knowledge of that presumeably through a similar experience themselves...if they want to know how to deal with an online relationship issue, they usually get the more informed answer and understanding from someone who has been there themselves...I have been in both situations, and it is vastly different.

You sure hit the nail on the head with that one. I have encountered this numerous times in my "travels" online, too. So it happens here, too? Why am I not surprised? One root cause of this problem seems to be an attitude that increasing numbers of people, particularly online, seem to adopt wholeheartedly. I sometimes call it "I Speak Therefore I Know Syndrome," at other times I call it the "We're all Bozos On this Bus Democracy" but the more common name is "Everybody's Opinion is Equal to Everybody Else's On Every Topic." I don't know why people so often like to deny the existence of expertise and experience in (other than the fact that it soothes their egos, which are frequently hugely invested in their "online personas," to do so). Perhaps it is part and parcel of the grand ol' American anti-intellectual movment. I mean, we can't have a democracy and all if folks on a message board go around putting on airs and don't realize that even though they are a doctor or a lawyer or a physicist, their opinions on medicine, the law, or physics are absolutely equal to and worth just as much as that of the ignorant hostile drunk who flunked out of highschool and is currently shooting his mouth off in a chatroom, giving dangerous advice right and left which other people are believing simply due to the strengh of his ability to convince.

If you deny the advice of experts in real life or get angry when they identify their opinion as an informed, educated, or experienced one, it often results in tragic or disasterous consequences. For example, if a cancer patient quaffs Magic Scientology Potions instead of following the advice of his oncologist, he can wind up underground...fast. If you are stupid enough to let the bigmouthed idiot next door fix your pipes rather than paying a skilled plumber, you have only your own foolishness to blame if your basement floods. But online, very often people get angry if somebody says, "I can speak to that subject because I have specialized in it or have some experience with it." They somehow think it's unfair, undemocratic of you, if you happen to be able to prove that you actually know more than someone else about a subject, to the point of the extreme absurdity which you mentioned, Catalina: being told that it isn't right or desireable for you mention the fact that you have in-depth experience when you voice your opinion on a topic where that experience is extremely germaine.

 

[alice_underneath]

My apologies to you Alice as I misread your earlier post

Thank you, Catalina. I appreciate that very much.

partly because I had just dealt with another suggestion that I should not mention RL in posts.

To be honest with you, Catalina, I have never read a single post in which someone criticized you for mentioning RL.

However, I have read posts in which people misinterpreted your comments as an attempt to invalidate OL experiences as not being "real" in their own way. But that is quite different from suggesting that you "should not mention RL in posts".

I am aware you have clarified your posts often, and seek knowledge respectfully which was why I was surprised when I misinterpreted your post.

Everyone misinterprets posts sometimes. Given limited personal knowledge of the correspondents, not to mention the total absence of tone, body language, and facial expressions, this is quite easy to do.

There's an irony here, Catalina. Can you see it?

Look at what just happened. I wrote a post which inadvertently triggered a negative reaction from you. You read an insult where none was intended, and lashed out at the wrong person.

Does this sound familiar in any way?!?

I sincerely appreciate your apology. But I am also compelled to point out that it might have been much harder for you to apologize, if I had spent the last 24 hours typing thinly veiled accusations that your misinterpretation implied you "have issues".

I thank you for trying to clarify my positon to others, but some just do not want to hear. I figure if people can't agree to disagree and tolerate each others differences on a porn board, what hope is there for world peace?

In the interest of peace on the porn board, I was happy to stand up for you.

But let me be perfectly clear about something. I am not taking sides here. And to prove it, I am now going to stand up for RJ, too.

He has acknowledged and validated your concerns and opinions repeatedly on this thread. For example:

I also agree that real life relationship and online are very different and for safety reasons that difference needs to be respected. That is not to say that both are not real and I think you would agree with me if I have read your other posts on this topic correctly elsewhere.

As to you sharing your RL experiences...I am always thankful that you do, as I am others. There are many things you all do in RL I would never do over the Internet, because it isn't practical or safe. In fact I would warn many of those who have only online relationships, to take care in reading RL'ers posts and not assume that what they do is ok to do online for obvious safety reasons as you have mentioned.

Now let's look at RJ's concerns, the crux of which (as I understand it) may be found here:

However, I can show you many posts that have nothing to do with a person being in any danger or fitting the criteria you mentioned, but clearly insinuates the submission of an online submissive as not being genuine or real, and just as many posts which say the dominance of a person online isn't genuine or real. That is because in their opinion genuine emotions of love, trust and respect or other things shared or felt in a D/s relationship... cannot be real over an Internet medium. But of course that is thier opinion and that is their perogative to feel that way. Mine is, I can agree they are different, but they are real and no less valid.

Please forgive me if I missed it, Catalina, but I have not seen you acknowledge the validity of his concerns. Even in your most recent post to him, you wrote:

Most did not want to divide people because they felt there was value in everyone's input, but the problem arises when from time to time people take exception to another's experience, most recently as I have been chastised for by onliners and vanillas, my having RL experience (yes, I have used it again) and daring to mention it in posting. If they don't want to hear about RL experiences, why are they on a BDSM board which was formed to discuss RL BDSM? I have never been a supporter of segregation or censorship and am not about to start now. Those who left did not leave because they objected to online people being on this forum (most had online experiences themselves), many left because they became tired of this same attitude I am dealing with once again now.

You are responding to his respectful assertion that OL people face a certain bigotry here, by repeatedly asserting that RL people (and you, specifically) get criticized too.

To be perfectly honest, I have seen many examples of what RJ is talking about here, and none of what you are describing. To be fair, though, I should point out the obvious - I have only been here since October, and have only read a handful of threads in that time.

But your assertion actually serves to validate RJ's original question. Since this seems to be the longest and most continued problem that has existed on this forum, why hasn't there been any changes to better accomendate the two different camps to make everyone happier?

Alice

 

[alice_underneath]

LOL And me. But I liked the idea so here ya go.

LOL! *hugs*

Thanks, Graceanne.

Alice

 

[catalina_francisco]

Thank you, Catalina. I appreciate that very much.
To be honest with you, Catalina, I have never read a single post in which someone criticized you for mentioning RL.

However, I have read posts in which people misinterpreted your comments as an attempt to invalidate OL experiences as not being "real" in their own way. But that is quite different from suggesting that you "should not mention RL in posts".

Yes it is different, but also not what has been happening...I have been told directly (publicly and privately) I should not mention RL and I am surprised you have not seen it, though as I said before, not everyone here outside moderators are required to try and read each post etc. As I also have said, I am not responsible for how people might choose to interpret my words based on the fact I relate experiences in terms of both online and RL of which I have experience of both, and therefore feel I am in some sort of place to differentiate on the two areas in particular issues....those criticising in most cases only have online (or no) experience and so do not have a view from both sides of the coin, but also don't want to acknowledge there is a difference.

You have been here a short time so you can be excused for not knowing a lot of what has gone before, but I can assure you I am not the only one who has had this message loud and clear both online and off, and in the past week or so, though only on Lit I'm sorry to say. We have posted on another site, very briefly and very low key, and already in a matter of a few days and a handful of brief posts have had unsolicitored comments from complete strangers on how valued our experience is and how they hope we continue to contribute. This is not the first time and site we have had recognition for experience and what we do and how we do it and how we treat others. It is sad that Lit is not of the same mood these days, but I can't say I have not been warned, just I am perhaps more of an optimist than those who have gone before me, but that optimism and charm is wearing off really quick of late.

Catalina

 

[RJMasters]

There is something I want to say. For going on nine years now....I have spent alot of time online. In that time have met many people and have learned many things. I have often been a stong, caring voice of reason that has often helped those who have been used and broken to pick up the pieces and find their self worth so that they can have the courage to go on. I admit in that length of time I have done my share of stupid and even selfish things which have hurt others(not in a physical way). I am coming up on age 40...young to some and old to others, but I know what loving, hating, trusting, caring, being sad, being happy, betrayal, jealiousy, confidence and regret are and what they feel like in real life. All of these I have felt also while being online and wheather in real life or online, these feelings certainly feel the same to me.

Though some may have seen the 3 graphics I made as a bit of a joke(which is fine if they feel that way I have no problem with that), i can assure you I am most serious about why I made them and why now the one sits in my signature. I hate to see a problem exist and no one ever does anything about it other than grip about it. This was the reason why I asked about the splitting of the Forum into towo sections. I don't see it as a form of segregation as much as a way to better suit the needs of all here. You have shared that many don't see it that way so I accept that as not being a solution to the problem. However, maybe no one else will ever wish to place a tag in their signature like I have, but I don't mind being a maverick. I am dead serious in people knowing that I am only online and that anything I say shouldn't be misconstruded or misinterpreted. Maybe not a perfect solution, but its a step in doing something at least for my part.

Not only am I online only, I have no plans at this time to pursue RL. Just not possible for me, just like many others. If that opportunity ever became available to me, I have confidence that I would make a rather decent Dom. That's because who I am online is who I am in real life. Good, bad and ugly its true.

Alice,

Thank you for your words, and yes I thought very simillar things to what you posted as far as it concerned me and "my comments". Anyone who wishes to reread my posts would see that I never once suggested that Catalina's knowledge or experience is second best to anyone. Catalina, like many others, have both alot of RL and OL expereince, not to mention alot of common sense to boot. However, I am willing to wager that I have expereinced things online that Catalina never has experienced and visa versa. This is not a slight, it is an acknowledge and a reaffirmation that OL has never been her focus nor is it a desire to be in as far as it is online only. For the last nine years, it has been mine.

I am no bumpkin that feel off the cabbage truck yesterday. I have sat and listened and learned, thought long about the why's and wherefore's of the D/s relationship. Have done alot of soul searching into who I am. Many of my posts bear that out. I have learned from many who are well respected on this forum board, such as Catalina & Francisco and ShadowsDream, Lady Kouka certainly comes to mind, but over the last nine years I have meet others like them and have learned from them as well. Much of my advice, thoughts and understandings come from what these people taught me and how it rings true in my heart and mind.

And regardless wheather me and Catalina or anyone else have a disagreement on something, that in no way removes the respect I have for her or them. And again I would point back to my posts in this thread and say I don't think I was even disagreeing with Catalina. In fact there is alot I did agree with, point and case check my signature. I certainly agree that everyone has the right to know if a person making a post has RL experience on a topic or online only. As for me, that matter is now forever resolved as no post shall come forth from me without that little sign there letting people know. This problem is obviously too big for any one or two people to fix, however this is my way of showing that I do respect that there are differences and I do not wish to confuse or mislead anyone. Wheather people take that at face value is up to them.

As to these other events that you are mentioning Catalina I am only aware of one. Not that I am 100% happy about that one, and wish a more ameable resolution could be attemtped rather than seeing it dragged out. Its not my affair so its not my place to meddle, I only mention it because you have repeatedly mentioned these other events and because I would like to say I am sorry you felt you had to defend sharing your expereince...as I have said all along I don't think anyone should have to do that.

I am done with this discussion and I thank you for the answers you provided me throughout it. I don't have any more questions and I have said all I wished to say.

 

[Netzach]

I've done the online thing. The feelings are real. Not much more is.

I've done the flesh thing. The feelings are just as real and then you have a whole other thing going on on top of that.

I've done the online maintenance of the real thing at a distance. Frankly once you've actually gotten together, correct me if I'm wrong, this loses a lot of the steam and appeal it once had. You find yourself looking forward to the next time he's crouching before you and you can smell the fear in his sweat, it's all entertaining but it loses resonance.

Sorry to piss people off but when you realize that sense of dissonance and you feel sad it *is* because one does not equate the other. And yes, it does fall short. Sure, I'm falling prey to applying what I know for me to be true to others.

But take a poll. So shoot me.

They're not the same. Sure, some of the online things I read are moving, intense, sweep me up in the tide of emotion, but we're talking apples and oranges. Writing about horses will never ever neigh and stomp you dead or throw you in a ditch or nuzzle you with its big velvety nose.

I think Slutacus is dead-on with this one. Ignorance is only infuriating to the willfully ignorant, to those secure in themselves, it's just a lack of experience and not a big deal. In a room full of people who have been at what I do longer than I have, I have the good sense to shut up and listen when it comes to career, but when you start talking about sexuality people are terrified to think it might involve a knowledge base.

I'm thrilled to field whatever people want to accuse me of, pigheadedness, bigotry, one true wayism, go for it.

 

[RJMasters]

I've done the online thing. The feelings are real. Not much more is.

I've done the flesh thing. The feelings are just as real and then you have a whole other thing going on on top of that.

I've done the online maintenance of the real thing at a distance. Frankly once you've actually gotten together, correct me if I'm wrong, this loses a lot of the steam and appeal it once had. You find yourself looking forward to the next time he's crouching before you and you can smell the fear in his sweat, it's all entertaining but it loses resonance.

Sorry to piss people off but when you realize that sense of dissonance and you feel sad it *is* because one does not equate the other. And yes, it does fall short. Sure, I'm falling prey to applying what I know for me to be true to others.

But take a poll. So shoot me.

They're not the same. Sure, some of the online things I read are moving, intense, sweep me up in the tide of emotion, but we're talking apples and oranges. Writing about horses will never ever neigh and stomp you dead or throw you in a ditch or nuzzle you with its big velvety nose.

I think Slutacus is dead-on with this one. Ignorance is only infuriating to the willfully ignorant, to those secure in themselves, it's just a lack of experience and not a big deal. In a room full of people who have been at what I do longer than I have, I have the good sense to shut up and listen when it comes to career, but when you start talking about sexuality people are terrified to think it might involve a knowledge base.

I'm thrilled to field whatever people want to accuse me of, pigheadedness, bigotry, one true wayism, go for it.

Glad I am not one of those pissed off people, and there will be no target practice here at least form me.

I see like Catalina that you have done both OL and RL and have expereince in both, and also like Catalina have chosen a preference of RL to OL. In fact I would argue that there is no contest in your minds by the statement you have both made. I agree that anyone who is genuinely into the many aspects of BDSM when given a choice, will naturally gravitate to a RL relationship. Some have went to great sacrifice and lengths to make that choice because for them there could be no other way.

I am certainly not opposing nor saying they are the same. They are different, and given the choice if someone is through and through....they will choose RL over OL.

Saying that, there are however many, no thousands, of people who do not have that choice for various reasons.

So for them coming online for the first time and trying to fill a need within themselves, is there nothing for them? Is there only listening to the mantra of that because they cannot experience RL, they will never know what its like?

Well, im part and to be fair, the answer is yes, but it is also no, there are things which can be experienced and somethings that can just never be expereienced over the Internet or phone.

Wouldn't it be great though if you were just coming online for the first time and find someone who has been around for a while and comes from the same circumstances as you(meaning cannot have Rl for whatever reason). Wouldn't it be nice to have someone to explain that there is no 1 way fits all kinda of thing and its really about discovering who you are and what you like. Wouldn't it be nice to have someone who you could ask advice from about doing some things and what some of the possible dangers might be?

Granted they may never expereince what you and Catalina have experienced, but if you say that your not interested in pursuiing anything that would only result in being online only...because you have already made the leap and crossed over...then you are not much help to those who have nope hope of ever going RL.

That is not because you don't have the experience to offer, but simply a matter of numbers and where you choose to direct your interest and time which are reserved for those things which will lead to RL. I know Catalina has said that they meet with online folks all the time for the first time to intorduce them to RL, yet this does little to help the person who cannot do such a thing. I doubt either of you would turn anyone away who has a qestion.

There is no axe to grind here...there is no accusation, the fact is, if someone is only online and will forever remain that way, then by way of dis-interst they are often discounted or politely pointed towards the roleplay rooms etc...

If I ever made the leap to RL I am sure that I would also say there is just no comparing the two....but in the here and now where I find myself and many others do as well, I am glad that I can be online only, and still have an interest to teach, share and experience...to what ever extent I am able over an online medium.

For those who are here with the intent of moving from online to RL, those who are here who are already in RL, and for those who may never get the chance to expereince RL but are given the benefit of both yours and Catalina's experience, I am very glad.

 

[Purple Sage]

The Tao that can be described is not the true Tao. There is a difference between the thing described and the thing-in-itself. To be sure, the description of a thing is a thing-in-itself, but not the same thing as the thing described. One would hope that, on a board whose major focus is erotic writing, that both the power of the imagined experience and the very different power of the real experience could be acknowledged. Watching 'Top Gun' is a real experience, but it's quite a different experience than the experience of flying an F-15. Through movies, books, poetry, and even on-line BDSM relationships, we can have valid emotional experiences. It's not particularly healthy, however, to confuse these with the real physical and emotional experiences on which these things are based, or from which they get their inspiration. One only has to listen to a couple of high-school boys talking in Klingon to affirm this.

If the subject were, say, combat, we would easily agree that reading Tom Clancy novels, playing Sniper on the X-box, and even playing paintball belong in a category very different than actually hunkering down in a rain-filled foxhole in the jungle while the guy next to you bleeds out through the stump of his left leg and mortar rounds keep dropping all around.

Every experience is in some sense 'real', but some realities have considerably more consequences than others, and our bodies know this. We have a visceral reaction to the 'really real' that fictions, by their very nature, cannot match. Which, of course, is what fiction is for- tailored experience, with limited consequences. Here, of all places, we ought to be able to appreciate fictions, but for my own part I believe that the best fictions, and the real appreciation of them, have a solid grounding in reality. Not all reality, all at once, just the part of reality that's pertinent to the fiction. In that context, I'd expect people to want to know whether information and opinions are originating with individuals who have the pertinent or experience or not.

 

[Netzach]

The Tao that can be described is not the true Tao. There is a difference between the thing described and the thing-in-itself. To be sure, the description of a thing is a thing-in-itself, but not the same thing as the thing described. One would hope that, on a board whose major focus is erotic writing, that both the power of the imagined experience and the very different power of the real experience could be acknowledged. Watching 'Top Gun' is a real experience, but it's quite a different experience than the experience of flying an F-15. Through movies, books, poetry, and even on-line BDSM relationships, we can have valid emotional experiences. It's not particularly healthy, however, to confuse these with the real physical and emotional experiences on which these things are based, or from which they get their inspiration. One only has to listen to a couple of high-school boys talking in Klingon to affirm this.

If the subject were, say, combat, we would easily agree that reading Tom Clancy novels, playing Sniper on the X-box, and even playing paintball belong in a category very different than actually hunkering down in a rain-filled foxhole in the jungle while the guy next to you bleeds out through the stump of his left leg and mortar rounds keep dropping all around.

Every experience is in some sense 'real', but some realities have considerably more consequences than others, and our bodies know this. We have a visceral reaction to the 'really real' that fictions, by their very nature, cannot match. Which, of course, is what fiction is for- tailored experience, with limited consequences. Here, of all places, we ought to be able to appreciate fictions, but for my own part I believe that the best fictions, and the real appreciation of them, have a solid grounding in reality. Not all reality, all at once, just the part of reality that's pertinent to the fiction. In that context, I'd expect people to want to know whether information and opinions are originating with individuals who have the pertinent or experience or not.

Thank you for articulating this well and in a way that's not so inflammatory.

Discussing something ad infinitum will never place you squarely in it will never make you it.

One can become an expert in a culture or a subject not one's own, via passion, dedication and empathy -- I'm not so bigoted as to think no-one can write or make art from outside their own cultural comfort zones, but 190000 hours of beadwork will not make me a Lakota.

I have no interest in policing anyone's activity, posting, participation, or whatever, but it's very frustrating to be told "I know what you mean" or "you're not doing it right" from someone with absolutely no experience in my proverbial moccasins.

 

[Netzach]

nevermind lol

 

[catalina_francisco]

It just amazes me that no matter how many times I and other RL people say that OL and RL are different, but that does not mean the two cannot exist on this discussion board peacefully, and experiences both ways can respectfully be shared with awareness, that it gets mentioned that it is very good we feel that way etc etc and that we are nice folk doing nice things etc, and that you have no issue with RL people here, and then the conversation once again takes the tone that onliners are not being accepted by people with RL experience. RJ, I find it incredible you still go on that it would be nice for new people to feel comfortable to explore their options and feelings here in a suppportive environment where we all share the value of our experiences and observations with them as if it doesn't happen. Sheesh, I don't know how many threads and questions we have to answer from such people, usually very friendly and over and over until they begin to feel their questions are answered and they understand, before you see it. It still translates to me, 'if you are RL, please keep that to yourself here as it offends me because I can't be'.

You say it is OK, you don't have an axe to grind, then explain that you have likely had online experiences I could never have had when I was online (lol, and you would know what I experienced online would you?), and insinuate with this lovely statement about Netzach and I "Granted they may never experience what you and Catalina have experienced, but if you say that your not interested in pursuiing anything that would only result in being online only...because you have already made the leap and crossed over...then you are not much help to those who have nope hope of ever going RL" that because we are RL we have nothing to offer anyone who isn't?!! Now who is the one with the problem RJ, it sure sounds like you have it all sorted for all your nice words that OL is your way and if anyone new comes here looking for directions and knowledge they should pull up a chair with you before either Netzach or I because what the fuck would we know anyway, we're just RLers who have also had the benefit of online experience....definately not good enough IYO.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

"Granted they may never experience what you and Catalina have experienced, but if you say that your not interested in pursuiing anything that would only result in being online only...because you have already made the leap and crossed over...then you are not much help to those who have nope hope of ever going RL"

Catalina

Someone should alert my phone-session-only clients. There goes my livelihood.

N.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Someone should alert my phone-session-only clients. There goes my livelihood.

N.

LOL, and a lot of people we are communicating with also I'm afraid. Sheesh they were sure misguided when they said they were glad to finally be talking with 2 people who understood them and knew what they were doing. Better tell them to check in here and get the real drill on how it all goes down.

Catalina

 

[RJMasters]

It just amazes me that no matter how many times I and other RL people say that OL and RL are different, but that does not mean the two cannot exist on this discussion board peacefully, and experiences both ways can respectfully be shared with awareness, that it gets mentioned that it is very good we feel that way etc etc and that we are nice folk doing nice things etc, and that you have no issue with RL people here, and then the conversation once again takes the tone that onliners are not being accepted by people with RL experience. RJ, I find it incredible you still go on that it would be nice for new people to feel comfortable to explore their options and feelings here in a suppportive environment where we all share the value of our experiences and observations with them as if it doesn't happen. Sheesh, I don't know how many threads and questions we have to answer from such people, usually very friendly and over and over until they begin to feel their questions are answered and they understand, before you see it. It still translates to me, 'if you are RL, please keep that to yourself here as it offends me because I can't be'.

You say it is OK, you don't have an axe to grind, then explain that you have likely had online experiences I could never have had when I was online (lol, and you would know what I experienced online would you?), and insinuate with this lovely statement about Netzach and I "Granted they may never experience what you and Catalina have experienced, but if you say that your not interested in pursuiing anything that would only result in being online only...because you have already made the leap and crossed over...then you are not much help to those who have nope hope of ever going RL" that because we are RL we have nothing to offer anyone who isn't?!! Now who is the one with the problem RJ, it sure sounds like you have it all sorted for all your nice words that OL is your way and if anyone new comes here looking for directions and knowledge they should pull up a chair with you before either Netzach or I because what the fuck would we know anyway, we're just RLers who have also had the benefit of online experience....definately not good enough IYO.

Catalina

Now who is the one with the problem RJ

It still looks to me you are still the one with a problem Catalina. Anyone who has half a brain can read the following paragraph of the post you quoted here and see that I did say:

- That is not because you don't have the experience to offer, but simply a matter of numbers and where you choose to direct your interest and time which are reserved for those things which will lead to RL.

- I doubt either of you would turn anyone away who has a qestion.

and in the final paragraph of the same post:

- ...and for those who may never get the chance to expereince RL but are given the benefit of both yours and Catalina's experience, I am very glad.

So you see my Three-of-a-kind statements seem to make what you were trying to do with your 1 of kind out of context quote seem rather absurd and rediculious.


You said:

It sure sounds like you have it all sorted

Well actually I do, at least for myself. Not like the way you seem to imply or suggest, however I do know why I am here, who I am, and what if any my business is. I am thankful that I neather require affirmation, approval or permission from you or any other to do what I want or be who I am.

You say it is OK, you don't have an axe to grind, then explain that you have likely had online experiences I could never have had when I was online

Nope again you have misread or misinterpretetd what I said. I didn't say there are experiences that I have had that you could never have or never had, I said that our experiences are no doubt different. Meaning simply that unless you have talked to all the people I have meet online or have done the exact same things and had the exact same conversations, then your expereiences online is different than my experiences online. To me, a large part of D/s online is about growing and learning things that will serve a person well not only online but also in RL.


Unless there will be anything else except cheap attempts to insult me or try to twist my words or the intent of them, I have more important matters to attend to. Sorry I am not all broken up or pissed off by the things you or others are saying. I realize that some will never like me, nor what I do, but I wish you Neztach and anyone else who might chime in, a pleasant day.