The Whole Jealousy Thing...

[James G 5]

Re: Societised responses

I partially agree with the earlier comment that monogamy is a societal thing, not a natural human response.

However, societal pressures aren't to be ignored. They have developed over time as a way to address the need for people to live together without going crazy and killing each other. They're not perfect, but they're better than anarchy.

In the last 50 years, we've seen a lot of ingrained societal influences start to change, and in this day and age, it pays to make up your own mind. But for most people, monogamy still works. It's largely about peer and economic factors.

Which is a shame, because I think Robert A. Heinlein's concept of line marriages would be way more stable as family and economic units! Ah well, we may yet get there.

Societal pressures have developed for a variety of reasons, most of them bad. The idea that examining flawed & outmoded ones and abadoning them SELECTIVELY will lead to anarchy is faalscious and supports dogmatic social inertia.

Monogamy does NOT work. Most so-called monogamous relationships end up in infidelity on the part of one or both partners (most=better than 50%, as statistics bear out) or in a split because partners are unhappy or unfulfilled with just one person (often the source of "irreconcilable differences" in a divorce...."My needs weren't being met"). I think the peer factor is changing somewhat, and economically in THIS climate a group arrangement is CERTAINLY more secure.

I agree, BTW, that Heinlen's line concept is better, but even n his works the S-grops were about mutual suport & caring for the kids, but the members weren't sworn solely to one another. It's unnatural to try & tie sexual fidelity to a social contract.

 

[FungiUg]

Re: Societised responses

Societal pressures have developed for a variety of reasons, most of them bad. The idea that examining flawed & outmoded ones and abadoning them SELECTIVELY will lead to anarchy is faalscious and supports dogmatic social inertia.

Hmmm... yes, I can partially agree with that, in particular your stress on selectivity. However, I would argue your point that most of the societal rules are there for bad reasons.

In fact, whether the rules are bad or not, some rules are best adhered to, because of the "ripple effect" that too many people ignoring rules can have.

Having said that, changing a rule that is clearly wrong makes sense. And I agree that the custom of monogamy falls into that category.

Monogamy does NOT work. Most so-called monogamous relationships end up in infidelity on the part of one or both partners (most=better than 50%, as statistics bear out) or in a split because partners are unhappy or unfulfilled with just one person (often the source of "irreconcilable differences" in a divorce...."My needs weren't being met"). I think the peer factor is changing somewhat, and economically in THIS climate a group arrangement is CERTAINLY more secure.

Monogamy CAN work, and does for some people. Those people are a minority, but that doesn't invalidate the concept. However, the concept that everyone should be monogamous is clearly falacious.

I agree, BTW, that Heinlen's line concept is better, but even n his works the S-grops were about mutual suport & caring for the kids, but the members weren't sworn solely to one another. It's unnatural to try & tie sexual fidelity to a social contract.

Yeah, well, I take objection to Heinlein's "it's okay to fuck your mother and your sister in the same bed at the same time". But otherwise his ideas of human sexuality and relationships to support that make more sense to me than much of what people have now.

I read a report on a study a while ago which compared promiscuity with the size of testicles in primates. Apparently small testes tend to go with monogamy, whereas large go with promiscuous. Humans are medium-sized. So perhaps our confusion over promiscuity vs. monogamy is simply biological?

 

[cellis]

This whole issue has been part of my BDSM journey. I have found that part of what I have had to do is work through those jealousy issues.

I was amazed at Himself's capacity to care for others... It was not part of my background... but I have/am learning to share with others... of course it helps to know where you stand and to be given some choice in the matter...

 

[Ebonyfire]

Choices

I believe that monogamy can work. It just does not work FOR ME.

YMMV.

 

[ammre]

i wish i wasne't a jealious person.. but in the present relationship if we included another person i would get jealous... this relationship started as aloving relationship... just girlfriend and boyfriend.. than the sexual sub/dom side of it grew and so there's other things at work in our relationship...
i don't think i would have _as much_ of a problem (i like attention so i know i would still feel twinges) if it started as a simply sexual sub/dom relationship... my first partner alan is now living with his girlfriend (who's a fantastic dom may i add) and there is not a single trace of jealousy in me for them. we play yhatzee and go to dungeons together and all that fun stuff...
i don't know... I wish i was more like EbFire, but i just get attached to things. but really.. differences is what makes us unique.. *shrug*
To each their own.

 

[Ebonyfire]

i don't know... I wish i was more like EbFire, but i just get attached to things. but really.. differences is what makes us unique.. *shrug*
To each their own.

You can be attached without being jealous. The assumption that non-jealous people do not care as much or love as much is erroneous.

We just to not have the need to possess the people in our lives.

 

[Ebonyfire]

You can be attached without being jealous. The assumption that non-jealous people do not care as much or love as much is erroneous.

We just to not have the need to possess the people in our lives.

 

[FungiUg]

You can be attached without being jealous. The assumption that non-jealous people do not care as much or love as much is erroneous.

We just to not have the need to possess the people in our lives.

Agreed. I do care deeply for my lover (or I would have dumped her -- it would make my exploration of D/s so much easier!) I just don't get jealous. I cared deeply for my ex-wife, but I was thrilled for her when she found a woman lover. Of course, I wasn't at all thrilled when she informed me that she no longer wanted sex for me... so while I don't get jealous, I can still be hurt.

I'm not sure I would agree with an earlier comment (not yours, Ebonyfire) that jealousy is a learned behaivour though. It's too common. Also, have you seen kids play? Some are naturally "mine, all mine!" while others are happy to share. I would say it's a fundamental part of the human psyche.

"I yam wot I yam!"

 

[SexyChele]

I'm not sure I would agree with an earlier comment (not yours, Ebonyfire) that jealousy is a learned behaivour though. It's too common. Also, have you seen kids play? Some are naturally "mine, all mine!" while others are happy to share. I would say it's a fundamental part of the human psyche.

"I yam wot I yam!"

Well, I am no one's idea of a pyschologist, but I'm not certain if you mean jealousy or selfishness in this example. I can only cite myself on this one. As an only child, I always knew all the toys in the house were MINE! When my cousins would come over to play, if they touched my toys, I would become furious and wanted the toy "back". It wasn't jealousy that spurred that behavior, it was selfishness. And something my parents had to jump on very quickly to instill a sense of sharing. I think this is learned in families where there are multiple siblings, but only children have difficulty with it.

Now, a sense of jealousy might come about when a child has been the only one for a period of time, and suddenly there is a new baby in the house. Or, as I've seen before, if an only child sees a parent show affection towards another child. This is a situation where I could see jealousy being directly related to insecurity - child sees parent giving love and affection to another child, and s/he feels their position as "number one" in their parent's eyes is compromised. However, I think this very basic form of jealousy is soon outlived, just as playground selfishness is. (okay, well maybe some don't!)

Now, if I am dating a man and he flirts with another woman, I don't feel anything either way, if flirting is part of his nature. Doesn't bother me to see him dance with another woman as well. But there are certain intimacies that do bug me. Is that hold out from childhood? I don't know. Was it "learned"? I don't think so, but it is who I am and I've come to accept it as being me.

 

[FungiUg]

... Is that hold out from childhood? I don't know. Was it "learned"? I don't think so, but it is who I am and I've come to accept it as being me.

I think the reason I object to the idea of jealousy being a "learned" response is the corollary that you can "unlearn" it. In my experience, that's simply untrue, and anyone who says differently is covering it up. (And yes, I do have experience with exactly this.)

So I agree with you Chele. You are the way you are, and accepting yourself for who you are is best. In my experience, you either get jealous (in varying degrees), or you don't. Most people do. And it's not something that I have seen change in people.

 

[SexyChele]

I think the reason I object to the idea of jealousy being a "learned" response is the corollary that you can "unlearn" it. In my experience, that's simply untrue, and anyone who says differently is covering it up. (And yes, I do have experience with exactly this.)

So I agree with you Chele. You are the way you are, and accepting yourself for who you are is best. In my experience, you either get jealous (in varying degrees), or you don't. Most people do. And it's not something that I have seen change in people.

Thank you - and I agree as well.

But what puzzles me, then, is when Doms (some, not all, by any means!) state that they will "help" a sub "overcome" her jealous tendencies. And yes, I've been told this a couple of times.

Okay, now I know when a relationship is new, I tend to be a little more uptight about it. Will it last? Does he really mean what he says? Will I be able to hold up my end of it? Etc. It is during this time, for me, that jealousy can become an issue. Once I've been with some one for a period of time, that fades, though I will admit that every once in a great while, something might happen that sparks that jealousy.

So, for me, as a relationship builds and trust is gained, my jealousy fades - but not completely. So, then why do Doms insist they will "help" me overcome that? (Rhetorical question, I understand) Anyway, that's my take on it.

 

[Ebonyfire]

But what puzzles me, then, is when Doms (some, not all, by any means!) state that they will "help" a sub "overcome" her jealous tendencies. And yes, I've been told this a couple of times.

I think that may be a man thing, chele. Men and women think differently, and many times men think in terms as something being a "problem needing a solution." And if it is a problem, then it can be fixed. Not all men are like this, but it is a men are from Mars, women from Venus kind of thing. Men are taught to be problem solvers, and women are taught to be nurturers, generally speaking, of course.

 

[Ebonyfire]

an empty post, sorry folks

Well, I am no one's idea of a pyschologist, but I'm not certain if you mean jealousy or selfishness in this example. I can only cite myself on this one. As an only child, I always knew all the toys in the house were MINE! When my cousins would come over to play, if they touched my toys, I would become furious and wanted the toy "back". It wasn't jealousy that spurred that behavior, it was selfishness. And something my parents had to jump on very quickly to instill a sense of sharing. I think this is learned in families where there are multiple siblings, but only children have difficulty with it.

Now, a sense of jealousy might come about when a child has been the only one for a period of time, and suddenly there is a new baby in the house. Or, as I've seen before, if an only child sees a parent show affection towards another child. This is a situation where I could see jealousy being directly related to insecurity - child sees parent giving love and affection to another child, and s/he feels their position as "number one" in their parent's eyes is compromised. However, I think this very basic form of jealousy is soon outlived, just as playground selfishness is. (okay, well maybe some don't!)

Now, if I am dating a man and he flirts with another woman, I don't feel anything either way, if flirting is part of his nature. Doesn't bother me to see him dance with another woman as well. But there are certain intimacies that do bug me. Is that hold out from childhood? I don't know. Was it "learned"? I don't think so, but it is who I am and I've come to accept it as being me.

I must be tired!

 

[FungiUg]

...What puzzles me, then, is when Doms (some, not all, by any means!) state that they will "help" a sub "overcome" her jealous tendencies. And yes, I've been told this a couple of times.

...So, then why do Doms insist they will "help" me overcome that? (Rhetorical question, I understand) Anyway, that's my take on it.

Okay, a "rhetorical" question, but I'm gonna throw out several ideas in reply. (And prepare to get stomped on for some of them!)

Some Doms are into control more than others. Some of them like to be able to control a person completely, even to the point of remaking that person's character. Personally, I think that's sick and they are living in a dangerous fantasy world that has little to do reality.

Another reason is that some Doms don't have a lot of real world experience with D/s and multiple partners. They think they know how it works (I know I did!) but until you actually get there, it's hard to know what the real world complications are.

Thirdly, some Doms have no fucking idea.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Okay, a "rhetorical" question, but I'm gonna throw out several ideas in reply. (And prepare to get stomped on for some of them!)

Some Doms are into control more than others. Some of them like to be able to control a person completely, even to the point of remaking that person's character. Personally, I think that's sick and they are living in a dangerous fantasy world that has little to do reality.

Another reason is that some Doms don't have a lot of real world experience with D/s and multiple partners. They think they know how it works (I know I did!) but until you actually get there, it's hard to know what the real world complications are.

Thirdly, some Doms have no fucking idea.

I did not see anything to jump on you for. I happen to agree.

As a female dominant, and after chatting with quite a few of my dominant Sisters, I find that We are not apt to try to change a sub who may not have the traits We require. We usually move on and find subs who fit Our requirements.

 

[FungiUg]

...I find that We are not apt to try to change a sub who may not have the traits We require. We usually move on and find subs who fit Our requirements.

Fanks.

I'm not sure if this is a female/male thing, or an experienced/inexperienced thing. But I do know that I always try to accept people as they are; that works for me.

 

[SexyChele]

I think that may be a man thing, chele. Men and women think differently, and many times men think in terms as something being a "problem needing a solution." And if it is a problem, then it can be fixed. Not all men are like this, but it is a men are from Mars, women from Venus kind of thing. Men are taught to be problem solvers, and women are taught to be nurturers, generally speaking, of course.

I think is more correct than supposed. (And no, I'm not "man bashing"!) My experience with Dommes has been limited to online forums, unfortunately, but of those I've had the pleasure to talk to, they seem to select their subs as the sub suit them. Some Doms (again, not all) seem willing to take on a sub, and then change what they perceive as being problems.

Interesting set of dynamics!

 

[Ebonyfire]

I think is more correct than supposed. (And no, I'm not "man bashing"!) My experience with Dommes has been limited to online forums, unfortunately, but of those I've had the pleasure to talk to, they seem to select their subs as the sub suit them. Some Doms (again, not all) seem willing to take on a sub, and then change what they perceive as being problems.

Interesting set of dynamics!

I am going by what is posted by the femsubs who post here. I seldom (if ever) have read about males subs mentioning a Domme trying to change them. And I have seldom read anything from a male sub who protests his treatment, unless it is in regard to an unfortunate scene with "Domme" who disregarded SSC play.

 

[WynEternal]

BTW, for those who crave monogamy & can make it work, more power to you, you're more than welcome to go your own way & I won't scorn it....just because *I* think it's unnatural doesn't mean I think it's WRONG and if you can walk that hard road, I admire you
I just know I've tried it & I know its not for me........nor is it for most other people, but unfortunately they either try it & live miserably or try it & FAIl miserably. I wish you luck.

A far cry from my slave days, now I'm in a monogamous marraige. As it is now, mono works well for the both of us. But we are both comfortable with each other to make joking comments about adding another to the mix.

 

[Ebonyfire]

A hard road?

I personally do not find monogamy a hard road to walk.

I just do not want to be monogamous. I have made a conscience decision not to restrict myself.

I make no judgment on others who walk a different path.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Could someone please tell me what this thread is about? I don't want to post stupid to it but I am also totally strung out and cannot focus enough to figure it out tonight.

I am afraid I will post something that is entirely off topic to this and then look like a total rube.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Could someone please tell me what this thread is about? I don't want to post stupid to it but I am also totally strung out and cannot focus enough to figure it out tonight.

I am afraid I will post something that is entirely off topic to this and then look like a total rube.

Rose, you gotta just read the entire thread. It is very clear when you read it in sequence.

 

[bunny bondage]

Re: A hard road?

I personally do not find monogamy a hard road to walk.

I just do not want to be monogamous. I have made a conscience decision not to restrict myself.

I make no judgment on others who walk a different path.

Eb, i gotta love your security in your own lifestyle and your respect for that of others. it's no suprise you have flocks of malesubs begging for your attentions!

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: A hard road?

Eb, i gotta love your security in your own lifestyle and your respect for that of others. it's no suprise you have flocks of malesubs begging for your attentions!

Thanks. I try not to be judgmental, but I have my blind spots too!

 

[A Desert Rose]

Rose, you gotta just read the entire thread. It is very clear when you read it in sequence.

Okay, maybe tomorrow.