The Whole Jealousy Thing...

[James G 5]

Re: Re: Societised responses

Hmmm... yes, I can partially agree with that, in particular your stress on selectivity. However, I would argue your point that most of the societal rules are there for bad reasons.

In fact, whether the rules are bad or not, some rules are best adhered to, because of the "ripple effect" that too many people ignoring rules can have.

Having said that, changing a rule that is clearly wrong makes sense. And I agree that the custom of monogamy falls into that category.

The rules debate is something I'd love to take up with you elsewhere sometime

Glad we agree on monogamy

Monogamy CAN work, and does for some people. Those people are a minority, but that doesn't invalidate the concept. However, the concept that everyone should be monogamous is clearly falacious.

That's why I said "MOST" in my post.....if you read my post back on page 1 I talk about monogamy working for some
I think it generally fails tho becuase it's a bad CONCEPT

Yeah, well, I take objection to Heinlein's "it's okay to fuck your mother and your sister in the same bed at the same time". But otherwise his ideas of human sexuality and relationships to support that make more sense to me than much of what people have now.

He's not perfect but he's got SOME good ideas.....I don't like his public whippings as punishment theories either...I think whippings should be kept in the bedroom for fun

I read a report on a study a while ago which compared promiscuity with the size of testicles in primates. Apparently small testes tend to go with monogamy, whereas large go with promiscuous. Humans are medium-sized. So perhaps our confusion over promiscuity vs. monogamy is simply biological?

Hmmmmm
Any guys out there who believe in monogamy wanna compare nut size with me?

 

[James G 5]

Okay, a "rhetorical" question, but I'm gonna throw out several ideas in reply. (And prepare to get stomped on for some of them!)

Some Doms are into control more than others. Some of them like to be able to control a person completely, even to the point of remaking that person's character. Personally, I think that's sick and they are living in a dangerous fantasy world that has little to do reality.

Another reason is that some Doms don't have a lot of real world experience with D/s and multiple partners. They think they know how it works (I know I did!) but until you actually get there, it's hard to know what the real world complications are.

Thirdly, some Doms have no fucking idea.

How about 4thly some times people who are interested & willing CAN be helped to change their perspectives?
You make it sound like people ALWAYS go in to it in a negative way with negatove outcomes.

 

[FungiUg]

Re: Societised responses

...[Robert A. Heinlein]'s not perfect but he's got SOME good ideas.....I don't like his public whippings as punishment theories either...I think whippings should be kept in the bedroom for fun

Heinlein liked to play "devil's advocate" in many of his stories, so just because he wrote about it doesn't necessarily mean he agreed with it. Starship Troopers is the classic example of this. Apparently Heinlein went to some lengths to explain that he wasn't an extreme right-wing fanatic after it was published. (For those of you who haven't read the book, it contains the scene with the public whipping that James was referring to.)

In contrast, The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress (my favourite Heinlein) is the book where he recommends an anarchistic society, and then shows some of the downfalls.

I think Heinlein liked to explore human and societal interaction, and this included politics and sex.

In his later stories though, there is a consistent theme of "it's okay to fuck your parents and your sister, really it is!" I love my sisters dearly, but have sex with them? No way. In fact, I tend to prefer anything but blondes, because my sisters are blonde.

Each to their own. Heinlein died a dirty old bugger, and I hope to go the same way myself! (If not dirty in quite the same way.)

 

[FungiUg]

How about 4thly some times people who are interested & willing CAN be helped to change their perspectives?
You make it sound like people ALWAYS go in to it in a negative way with negatove outcomes.

Sorry, I've not met that case. Yes, I have heard of it (helping people to change when they want to.) But it's not part of my experience.

I have seen the "negative way with negative outcomes" though. More than once.

Which is why my personal philosophy is to make an effort to accept people as they are, and not to expect people to change. Jealousy I regard an inherent part of someone's personality, and if I don't like it, I move on rather than trying to change it.

Of course, if people really doesn't like something about themselves, they can change. But I have never seen this happen with jealousy. So I remain a sceptic.

 

[James G 5]

I am going by what is posted by the femsubs who post here. I seldom (if ever) have read about males subs mentioning a Domme trying to change them. And I have seldom read anything from a male sub who protests his treatment, unless it is in regard to an unfortunate scene with "Domme" who disregarded SSC play.

I think that part of this comes from some of the difference in what male & female Tops expect from their bottoms
Dommes I know tend to select subs who meet their criteria and then train them in service to the Dommes that would not need to involve things like accepting multiple partners......as you said, that would be one of the criteria. But the focus of the bottom's training is on service to the Domme.

Male Doms tend to find women who wish to be mentored or taugh in braoder areas, or who tend to desire service that would take the subs in to the more uncomfortable areas of thinsg like sharing, and the men tend to think more of "molding" the sub....Plus, I would venture to say that femals tend to be less honest (moreso with themslves than with the Dom) about what they can accept. It might be VERY easy for a new female sub to say "I can chare you" than it is to LIVE it. As a friend of mine says, accepting something INTELLECTUALLY and accepting something EMOTIONALLY are 2 VERY different things.

I would posit here that part of the issue is that Alpha males tend to want a group, but females out of jealousy & insecurity have more trouble handling it, whereas when Alpha females tend to seek a group, the kind of men they attract are more likely to be accepting since they've already gone against the "natural" (so to speak) gender order in accepting a servile role, and so are less inclined to have jealousy issues.

 

[James G 5]

Re: A hard road?

I personally do not find monogamy a hard road to walk.

I just do not want to be monogamous. I have made a conscience decision not to restrict myself.

I make no judgment on others who walk a different path.

If you don't choose to walk it, I imagine you don't find it very hard at all
I never made a judgement on people who chose it, in fact back on page 1 I stated I admire them
Just because I happen to feel the idea is bad doesn't mean I revile those who live by it
They're not hurting anyone & they're adults who've made that choice, I say Mazeltov

 

[FungiUg]

Re: Re: A hard road?

If you don't choose to walk it, I imagine you don't find it very hard at all
I never made a judgement on people who chose it, in fact back on page 1 I stated I admire them
Just becuase I hapen to feel the idea is bad doesn't mean I revile those who live by it
They're nto hurting anyone & they're adults who've made that choice, I say Mazeltov

Hmmm. I have been in a monogamous long-term relationship (the whole marriage thing). Been there, done that, never again.

I do resent when monogamous people make it clear that because monogamy works for them, I should follow suit. That's just silly: lots of people ski, but if I did it I would kill myself! (I am a natural klutz.)

However, those who choose to be monogamous I accept. It's just not for me any more.

 

[James G 5]

Sorry, I've not met that case. Yes, I have heard of it (helping people to change when they want to.) But it's not part of my experience.

I have seen the "negative way with negative outcomes" though. More than once.

Which is why my personal philosophy is to make an effort to accept people as they are, and not to expect people to change. Jealousy I regard an inherent part of someone's personality, and if I don't like it, I move on rather than trying to change it.

Of course, if people really doesn't like something about themselves, they can change. But I have never seen this happen with jealousy. So I remain a sceptic.

We agree on the Heinlen thing, including how we wanna go out

Ok, I've read thru more of the posts & think I have a response to this.........
I think some level of jealousy and possesiveness IS inborn. HOWEVER.....the transference of it from things like toys (SC's "my toy, gimme gimme") comment to people is VERY telling.....People who get jealous on THAT basis are feeling jealous because they see the person they're with as PROPERTY. An extension of this is the common occurence of only children feeling like they DESERVE all the time and attention of those around them because it's ALL about them.
Second, as is pointed out in "The Ethical Slut", some jealousy comes not from insecurity per se but from a feeling that love is a finite thing, that a person only has so much to give. This is what occurs in the example of a child who feels unloved when a sibling enters the home as a newborn, costing the older child attention.

While a person may not be able to become "not jealous" it should be possible (and HEALTHY!) for a reasonable person to learn to see that a lover or partner is NOT property (even within the context of D/s and owning someone LOL), that the world doesn't revolve around him or her, and that love is a wonderful thing that can GROW when shared or DIE when stifled.

Therapists work with people to teach them those things so they can be happy in GENERAL in their lives.
I believe it's possible for a caring knowledgeable Top who's doing it FOR THE RIGHT REASONS to help a sub see things in that fashion.

IMHO, as always

 

[James G 5]

Re: Re: Re: A hard road?

Hmmm. I have been in a monogamous long-term relationship (the whole marriage thing). Been there, done that, never again.

I do resent when monogamous people make it clear that because monogamy works for them, I should follow suit. That's just silly: lots of people ski, but if I did it I would kill myself! (I am a natural klutz.)

However, those who choose to be monogamous I accept. It's just not for me any more.

I'm right there with you on all of the above

 

[sweetnpetite]

Re: Who? Jealous? Me?

I don't get jealous. Never have. I've no idea why, it's just not an emotion I've felt.

I've felt angry, hurt, bewildered, envious, and so on. But not jealous. When my ex-wife and I broke up, one of the comments she made was that she wished I were jealous even a little, because that way she would have felt more desired. Of course, her next lover was insanely jealous, and she ran screaming from that relationship! Sometimes it pays not to get what you ask for... *chuckle*

I find that I am jealous when I'm with someone who is jealous. And if I'm with someone who I never really expected to be faithfull I'm not jealous then either. Does that make sence to anyonne here?

 

[James G 5]

Re: Re: Who? Jealous? Me?

I find that I am jealous when I'm with someone who is jealous. And if I'm with someone who I never really expected to be faithfull I'm not jealous then either. Does that make sence to anyonne here?

Yep! Adapt to your environment/give what you get

 

[sweetnpetite]

Well I do not know if I am well adjusted or just pragmatic.

I look at it this way. What will jealousy accomplish? For Me nothing. And I can't see myself giving that person that much power over my emotions

Absolutly. If they where worth getting upset about, they wouldn't be doing anything worth getting upset about!

 

[sweetnpetite]

We agree on the Heinlen thing, including how we wanna go out

Ok, I've read thru more of the posts & think I have a response to this.........
I think some level of jealousy and possesiveness IS inborn. HOWEVER.....the transference of it from things like toys (SC's "my toy, gimme gimme") comment to people is VERY telling.....People who get jealous on THAT basis are feeling jealous because they see the person they're with as PROPERTY. An extension of this is the common occurence of only children feeling like they DESERVE all the time and attention of those around them because it's ALL about them.
Second, as is pointed out in "The Ethical Slut", some jealousy comes not from insecurity per se but from a feeling that love is a finite thing, that a person only has so much to give. This is what occurs in the example of a child who feels unloved when a sibling enters the home as a newborn, costing the older child attention.

While a person may not be able to become "not jealous" it should be possible (and HEALTHY!) for a reasonable person to learn to see that a lover or partner is NOT property (even within the context of D/s and owning someone LOL), that the world doesn't revolve around him or her, and that love is a wonderful thing that can GORW when shared or DIE when stifled.

Therapists work with people to teach them those things so they can be happy in GENERAL in their lives.
I believe it's possible for a caring knowledgeable Top who's doing it FOR THE RIGHT REASONS to help a sub see things in that fashion.

IMHO, as always

I think jealousy can be unleaned if those involved are *willing* Gor my part, i would try to overcome it if my partner where willing to try to overcome his, but as he can't or won't neither will I. However, it doesn't bother me to go to a strip club with him (I am confortable sooner than he) or look at porn together. So I'm already less jealous than 90% of the women I know in real life.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I really am in awe of those of you who actually live this as a life-style. I LOVE being dominated, controlled, posessed ect. In sexual situations- but in life or in a relationship, no way. Its that reversal thing of being in control all day and then letting go at night (not neccesarily nite-time, but whenever) that exights me. On the other hand, I don't actually have that control anywhere in my life, so maybe its just the surrender of trying. I'm not interested in trading in my guy, but is it actually possible to find a man who is domanant and controlling in the sack but NOT the rest of the time? What do you think? Or speaking of learned behavior from earlier, do you think its possible for him to ever learn to not be that way the rest of the time, and remain sexually dominant?

 

[FungiUg]

...I'm not interested in trading in my guy, but is it actually possible to find a man who is domanant and controlling in the sack but NOT the rest of the time? What do you think? Or speaking of learned behavior from earlier, do you think its possible for him to ever learn to not be that way the rest of the time, and remain sexually dominant?

Yeah, it's possible. I for one love dominating women sexually, but am in no way interested in control other than sexual control. I like strong women, "feisty" women, who when they give themselves to me sexually to be used and controlled, it means something, rather than complete walkovers.

Outside of sex though... I'm just not interested.

So keep looking if that's what you are after. People like that do exist.

As for "training" your Dom... er... see earlier comments about people changing. If he wants to change, then it's possible. But he won't change because you want him to.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Absolutly. If they where worth getting upset about, they wouldn't be doing anything worth getting upset about!

Exactly.

I have found that if a person does something to try to make be jealous, they are doing it on purpose. It is a calculated move to get a response from Me.

I am more inclined to question them to find out what is the issue behind the manupulation. Then if they can be honest, and tell me what really is the issue, we can deal with it. If they refuse to be honest about the real issue, I usually remove myself from the situation.

This is how I deal with things, others have their own ways of coping.

Eb

 

[Ebonyfire]

Originally posted by sweetnpetite

but is it actually possible to find a man who is domanant and controlling in the sack but NOT the rest of the time?

You can find most anything you want in life if you are willing to do the work to find it, and have the patience to wait for it, cause it may take a long time (even years).




What do you think? Or speaking of learned behavior from earlier, do you think its possible for him to ever learn to not be that way the rest of the time, and remain sexually dominant?

People change only when they are motivated internally to do so. At least that has been my experience.

 

[bunny bondage]

it's the old nature verusus nurture argument. effects of environment compared to what is naturally inborn. since there's absolutly no way to prove either side, you guys could run this discussion around in circles until you all got dizzy and threw up.

 

[Ebonyfire]

it's the old nature verusus nurture argument. effects of environment compared to what is naturally inborn. since there's absolutly no way to prove either side, you guys could run this discussion around in circles until you all got dizzy and threw up.

Do not spoil the surprise.

I don't think anyone is naive enough to believe we are trying to find a definitive answer.

There are no definitive answers. Most the the subjects here are just as subjective.

So if folks want to discuss it until the cows some home, then I have no problem with that.

 

[bunny bondage]

don't get me wrong, i'm not saying i mind, just stating the obvious!

 

[Ebonyfire]

don't get me wrong, i'm not saying i mind, just stating the obvious!

Yes well, if you must! I look at it as an exchange of ideas, and an addition to my high post count.

 

[bunny bondage]

lol! gotta bump up the post count, and you might as well do it with an intelligent discussion!

 

[Richard49]

To have a definitive answer
you have to have the right question


That I do not have

 

[FungiUg]

To have a definitive answer
you have to have the right question


That I do not have

What do you get when you multiply 6 by 9?

(Sorry, couldn't resist, after Bunny's 42.)

 

[sweetnpetite]

Yeah, it's possible. I for one love dominating women sexually, but am in no way interested in control other than sexual control. I like strong women, "feisty" women, who when they give themselves to me sexually to be used and controlled, it means something, rather than complete walkovers.

That is an excellent point. Btw, when I'm searching for good BDSM stories, I won't read anything by somebody who sounds like there a self-hating doormat in there profile. Or who seem to be saying "you can do whatever you want to me" becuuse they think thats the only way to get a guy, and not because its *there* desire. We may all be flawed and fucked up here, but it seems to me that these people are just a little too unhealthy. I bet this would make a good thread: How to be a sub and keep your self esteem. (and avoid preditors) Like I said, I try to avoid those who seem to have been abused and just no longer have any self-worth. Unfortunatly there are preditors (none on this board I'm sure) who could care less, and probably go specificly for this type. For myself, I am in a loving relationship with an imperfect humanbeing who just happens to have the same kinks as I do. *delerious smile*