This is a tough one to explain.

[Marquis]

Looking back on the totality of my experiences with women, I'd say that the two most common reasons for resisting meaningful communication were as follows.

1 - The truly baffling theory some women seem to embrace that may be summarized as: "We don't have to talk about it, because if you really cared about me you would just know." It seems to be a bizarre and misguided test of devotion, in a way. Now I'm down with the idea that generally speaking I should be able to pick up non-verbal clues as to irritation, disappointment, etc. However, understanding that someone *is* irritated is not necessarily the same thing as understanding *why*. This theory really exasperates me.

and

2 - Fear of disappointing, angering, or upsetting me with what she has to say.

I have also, on rare occasions, experienced resistance that seemed to be a form of rebellion, as in: You can make me do a lot of things, but you can't make me talk.

I've experienced all of those, but I would have to say my current problem is probably most related to number 2.

To be honest with myself, I know that as available to communication as I make myself, I'm not always the best listener or the easiest person to talk to. I remind myself of my father in that way. He's very judgmental and intolerant. He is also very smart and tends to be right. It creates a combination that makes it extremely frustrating to talk to, and I try to learn from my own experience with him by being more open.

I do fear that I occasionally shoot myself in the foot by making my subs feel like their concerns or opinions are trivial or easily dealt with. It's difficult for me to strike a balance between being a problem solver, and sometimes just listening.

Over the years, I learned to counteract these forces by talking about them early on in a relationship and establishing ground rules. If you want me to list them, I will. But it's hard to know whether or not this would be helpful in your case.

Yes, I would very much like for you to list them, please.

Not wanting to bother with meaningful discussion, taken at face value, isn't exactly a positive sign for commitment to the relationship. It would be helpful to know if a more complex reason explains the reluctance.

I agree, it is absolutely not a positive sign. Particularly with my new sub, I want to believe it stems more from a combination of fear, insecurity and poor time management skills than anything else. Hopefully I'm not being overly optimistic, but she has gone through some incredible trouble to be with me, so it's hard to say.

Personally I've boycotted Valentine's Day since day one. I really *hate* anything that feels like someone telling me what to do in a personal relationship, and the commercial pressure surrounding this particular event is obscene.

It also seems to reinforce the behavior of those men who engage in quasi-obsequious, bank account-draining efforts to get in some woman's bed. No, I'm not talking about male submissives here. I'm talking about non-kinky heterosexuals engaging in this behavior, and it's something that I have always refused to do.

You mentioned being "comfortable as the pursuer", Marquis, and I am too. In fact, I insist on it. But taking the first step and working to convince her I've got the qualities and characteristics to be a great choice for a mate are very different than bribing with roses and jewelry.

So on principle, I refuse to participate in Valentines Day and have never celebrated a single one.

Yeah, I don't go for that shit either. I'm not quite so anti-valentines day, but I'm not into doing anything you're "supposed" to do. I do what I do because I want to. Truthfully, the romance issue isn't as major to me as the communication thing.

As for romantic efforts to please in general, I would describe myself as an outrageously romantic guy who has frequently made his best friends roll their eyes in mock disgust. And I would describe my submissive partners as having been respectful and obedient but also very romantic and keenly eager to please, as often and as frequently as possible.

With some, this actually became annoying at times. As far as I'm concerned, there is such a thing as too much fawning and adoration. However, the right partner just sort of seems to know what I would need or want and the appropriate time to offer it.

I disagree with the idea that all submissives need discipline, though I absolutely agree with the general concept that meeting a partner's needs is an essential part of the relationship.

However, the application of this principle is much broader than the question of whether or not she'll make spontaneous attempts to please you. If you don't meet her needs, she'll become unhappy with the relationship in general and eventually take a hike.

True, and obviously this goes both ways. I'm not at a point where I feel like my needs aren't being met to the point where I need to take a hike. In general, I'm not so much the "take a hike" type as much as I am one to scale back my feelings and involvement.

I can say honestly that my feelings for the new sub in particular are not what they could be if I felt like I was getting more effort from her, and that really disappoints me. I really dislike the feeling of having to exercise restraint in your feelings for a person, but I suppose we're all there at some point or another. She's also dealing with a lot of issues of her own (and on her own) right now, and I suppose she's letting me in as deep as she is capable of at this point in time.

For now, this is fine, but at some point if she can't seem to make the time to talk to me and meet me needs for attention and communication, I'm just going to put her out of my mind.

 

[Marquis]

Hm, that's hot.

Maybe it's a girl sub thing. I know the sub boys if they want to survive the process of elimination learn real quick how to overdo the "good boyfriend" stuff.

Ahhhh, this curse of heterosexuality.

 

[Zinfandel]

Five Love Languages

There is a book called "The Five Love Languages: How To Express Your Heartfelt Commitment to Your Mate". I've actually never read it, but the concept of the Five Love Languages was one that a therapist introduced me to. Basically, the author asserts that most people give and receive love in the following ways:

1. Acts of Service
2. Gift Giving
3. Quality Time
4. Physical Affection
5. Words of Affirmation

My therapist urged me to consider the loving relationships in my life in relation to these. For example: How do I give love to others? How do I prefer to receive it? How does my husband give love? How does he prefer to receive it? Some of the things this allowed me to work towards were: When I feel unloved or unappreciated, recognizing that a loved one may be giving love, just in their primary language, not mine. And trying harder to give love to my loved ones in the ways they need it most (and the ways they will recognize it as such).

I was already thinking of this concept when I read Fury's post:

When I was growing up, my grandmother was always giving me money and expensive things.

My grandfather on the other hand took walks with me, shared his life stories with me and brought me things like cracker jacks prizes. He would keep a small token like that for me until he saw me again. Guess which one made me feel more loved and attached?

and it's a perfect example of the different ways people give and receive love.


Not sure all this is relevant for you Marquis, but I thought I would throw my thoughts out there for consideration.

 

[Marquis]

There is a book called "The Five Love Languages: How To Express Your Heartfelt Commitment to Your Mate". I've actually never read it, but the concept of the Five Love Languages was one that a therapist introduced me to. Basically, the author asserts that most people give and receive love in the following ways:

1. Acts of Service
2. Gift Giving
3. Quality Time
4. Physical Affection
5. Words of Affirmation

My therapist urged me to consider the loving relationships in my life in relation to these. For example: How do I give love to others? How do I prefer to receive it? How does my husband give love? How does he prefer to receive it? Some of the things this allowed me to work towards were: When I feel unloved or unappreciated, recognizing that a loved one may be giving love, just in their primary language, not mine. And trying harder to give love to my loved ones in the ways they need it most (and the ways they will recognize it as such).

I was already thinking of this concept when I read Fury's post:



and it's a perfect example of the different ways people give and receive love.


Not sure all this is relevant for you Marquis, but I thought I would throw my thoughts out there for consideration.

Actually, this is really relevant and really helpful!

If I had to say what the primary difference is between my subs' and my own languages of love is that I'm more into the words of affirmation and they're more into the service. This is totally cool with me overall, but there are times when they are looking for more service and I am looking for more words of affirmation and that's something we can all work on to reach our full potential.

I actually had a really great day with both of my subs today that's really making me feel a lot better. I appreciate everyone offering me some perspective and the opportunity to vent. I hate to sound like a baby, but I don't really have the opportunity to do this with anyone in real life, and certainly not such a great group of people with so much wisdom and experience.

Happy Valentine's Day everyone!

 

[Betticus]

Actually, this is really relevant and really helpful!

If I had to say what the primary difference is between my subs' and my own languages of love is that I'm more into the words of affirmation and they're more into the service. This is totally cool with me overall, but there are times when they are looking for more service and I am looking for more words of affirmation and that's something we can all work on to reach our full potential.

I actually had a really great day with both of my subs today that's really making me feel a lot better. I appreciate everyone offering me some perspective and the opportunity to vent. I hate to sound like a baby, but I don't really have the opportunity to do this with anyone in real life, and certainly not such a great group of people with so much wisdom and experience.

Happy Valentine's Day everyone!

Hi there!

 

[Quint]

..............

 

[Marquis]

I'm really glad you mentioned these; my best friend talked to me about the 5 languages when I was having trouble with T a few years ago. Great way of thinking about how we express love for each other and how we prefer to receive love.

T's birthday is today, the day after Valentine's Day. I give myself a lot of stress trying to make the occasion doubly special. I know that T appreciates it when I do all this planning and shit, but he hates how neurotic I am when I'm planning. It's the same in the kitchen--great food, bitchy cook.

One thing we did is establish a new tradition: every year we switch on who gives the sugar and who gives the spice on V-Day. That way, a little of the pressure is off me and I can relax a little bit more knowing that my efforts are going to be reciprocated. I dunno if setting up a ritual or tradition would help you, but it works to my INTJ mentality.

Cool idea, and definitely one I'll have to give some thought.

It's nice that there are people willing to discuss relationship issues in an honest and constructive manner. It seems that there are many who never have to deal with these types of things, as their relationships are so divine or their commitment to celibacy so strong.

 

[Exogenous]

(snip)

1 - The truly baffling theory some women seem to embrace that may be summarized as: "We don't have to talk about it, because if you really cared about me you would just know." It seems to be a bizarre and misguided test of devotion, in a way. Now I'm down with the idea that generally speaking I should be able to pick up non-verbal clues as to irritation, disappointment, etc. However, understanding that someone *is* irritated is not necessarily the same thing as understanding *why*. This theory really exasperates me.

……

With some, this actually became annoying at times. As far as I'm concerned, there is such a thing as too much fawning and adoration. However, the right partner just sort of seems to know what I would need or want and the appropriate time to offer it.

I agree that people can’t assume others to be mind readers as to understanding “why” someone is irritated, although they read the clues in conversation, tones of voice, and body language that demonstrates that a person *is* irritated. That is an unfair and misplaced expectation, without honest communication, in the case of being irritated. However, I’m confused by your statements that it’s a “bizarre and misguided test of devotion, in a way” for women to wish their partners automatically “just know” and then it’s stated that “However, the right partner just sort of seems to know what I would need or want and the appropriate time to offer it.”

How is it different that the right person “just sort of seems to know” the needs and wants and the “appropriate time to offer it”, versus the theory that some women have in "We don't have to talk about it, because if you really cared about me you would just know."

No sarcasm here, I am asking an honest question, trying to understand. Perhaps I am way off base or just dense.

 

[JMohegan]

Yes, I would very much like for you to list them, please.

For me, laying down strict ground rules regarding communication is a helpful way to deal with the inherent contradiction in a relationship where on the one hand, this is absolutely *not* a democracy and what I say goes, respect for my Dominance is key, etc. ..... but on the other hand, I want and in fact *need* for her to give me verbal feedback as to her wants, needs, reactions, hopes, dreams, etc.

I begin by asking her to create two written lists. One outlines the things she hated or really did not appreciate about the way prior boyfriends communicated, and the other describes her view of her own weaknesses in the communications department.

I create the same two lists about my experiences with prior mates and my own weaknesses. Then we swap lists and talk about them, first to ask questions and check for understanding and then to talk about what reasonable expectations would be for our own relationship.

Some of the ground rules I set are prompted by her remarks as an individual, but some are set by my own experience with submissive women in D/s relationships.

The biggest problem I have had, and the one that takes the most work to overcome and is never really resolved completely, is the tendency of a devoted submissive partner to fear disappointing, angering, upsetting, or alienating me with what she has to say. The fear is genuine and it runs very deep at times.

A typical set of the ground rules I've established would look something like this:


1 - Don't assume that I will be able to pick up on hints that your girlfriends just "get" right away, and don't assume that I'll be able to process metaphorical suggestions or expressions of feeling in the same way either.

The abstract is a cognitive weakness of mine. If you want me to understand something, try to explain it in the most concrete way possible.

Don't give me some flowery, long-winded, philosophically deep and metaphorically lovely rendering of your needs and desires that would make your girlfriends say omg that's the beautiful thing I've ever heard.

Instead, try to tell me what you want or need me to *do*.


2 - I'm a reasonably bright guy and yes I'm paying attention and yes I care about you, BUT.... keep in mind that I have no way of knowing what happened to you at work today or how my behavior is reminding you of the way your father treated you when you were 12 or why this particular act should be irritating when none of my prior girlfriends had a problem with it or indeed a host of other things..... unless you tell me.


3 - A lie is never acceptable. I can not and will not tolerate lying, and at no time is it more important for you to remember this than when we are talking about your feelings, needs, hopes, dreams, or reactions to what I have done or not done or said or not said.


4 - If you are irritated, worried, stressed, etc. and I ask: Is anything bothering you? and you say "Nothing's wrong"...... then you just lied to me. Pause before you open your mouth to respond, and think *very* carefully about point #3 before you do.


5 - If the sentiment is true, it is *always* okay to say things like: "I'm upset but I don't know why" or: "I'm upset but too frightened to talk about it". It's okay to be frightened. I can't order you not to feel fear. But if you deny me the opportunity to help you deal with that fear then you are:

a - Denying me my rights as your Dominant to have access to your heart, mind, and body

and

b - Insulting me greatly by assuming that I won't be able to help work things out in a constructive way.


There are more rules, but they have mostly related to the communication strengths and weaknesses of the individuals involved.

The main idea behind these ground rules is to clearly establish the understanding that while she may fear saying something that sounds disrespectful , the *most* disrespectful thing she could do would be to lie or insult me by breaking the basic rules of communication. And while she fears alienating me, the *most* distancing thing I can imagine is reluctance to participate in meaningful communication, no matter how difficult.

It's difficult for me to strike a balance between being a problem solver, and sometimes just listening.

I hear you, Marquis. This is often difficult for me, too.

Whenever possible, what I try to do to compensate is to break meaningful discussions about her needs/wants/problems into two parts.

In the first part, my goal is not to solve the actual problem, but simply to understand what the heck the problem truly is. Therefore, I try to say as little as possible. Often, I'll even say: Keep talking until you've said everything that's on your mind, and then let me know when you're done.

Then the very next thing I do is to check for understanding by paraphrasing what I think she just said. If I'm off the mark, she clarifies, and the process repeats itself until I really do get it.

Then we take a break, lasting anywhere from minutes to days, while I think about what she's told me, calm down if necessary, put it in perspective, etc.

Problem solving itself doesn't enter into the picture until part 2.

 

[JMohegan]

I can say honestly that my feelings for the new sub in particular are not what they could be if I felt like I was getting more effort from her, and that really disappoints me. I really dislike the feeling of having to exercise restraint in your feelings for a person, but I suppose we're all there at some point or another. She's also dealing with a lot of issues of her own (and on her own) right now, and I suppose she's letting me in as deep as she is capable of at this point in time.

For now, this is fine, but at some point if she can't seem to make the time to talk to me and meet me needs for attention and communication, I'm just going to put her out of my mind.

I assume that we're talking about the gorgeous Canadian here. The one discussed on the GB last year and mentioned again in the First Moments thread. Is that right?

If so, given the update, I'll add more ideas for contemplation here.

Guaranteed she's got well-meaning family and friends who are sincerely, desperately (and outspokenly) concerned about the fact that she appears to be trading in stability and "decency" for some hot piece of male ass she met. On the Internet, of all places. With an established girlfriend, no less.

They have no way of verifying the depth of your feeling for her, and no way of assessing your character beyond what they can imagine given the facts at hand.

Few are the people who are able to relax and watch a friend or daughter speed toward a perceived train wreck without desperately and aggressively trying to "save" her.

You know all of this already, surely.

Your existence as her boyfriend makes it much harder for them to accept that she was genuinely unhappy with him, instead of being the "victim" of your seduction.

Therefore, instead of just putting her out your mind, one option might be to put things on hold for six months or a year. Let her get her life in order and deal with all the old issues before she starts something new with you. Limit contact with her, but tell her to give you a call when the dust has settled.

This wouldn't be exercising restraint about your feelings so much as acknowledging and accepting them but dealing with reality at the same time.

If the goal is a healthy and sustainable long term relationship, then this strategy might be worth trying.

Just a thought.

My older comments on the GB still stand too.

But whatever you choose to do, you have my sincere best wishes for success.

 

[JMohegan]

I agree that people can’t assume others to be mind readers as to understanding “why” someone is irritated, although they read the clues in conversation, tones of voice, and body language that demonstrates that a person *is* irritated. That is an unfair and misplaced expectation, without honest communication, in the case of being irritated. However, I’m confused by your statements that it’s a “bizarre and misguided test of devotion, in a way” for women to wish their partners automatically “just know” and then it’s stated that “However, the right partner just sort of seems to know what I would need or want and the appropriate time to offer it.”

How is it different that the right person “just sort of seems to know” the needs and wants and the “appropriate time to offer it”, versus the theory that some women have in "We don't have to talk about it, because if you really cared about me you would just know."

No sarcasm here, I am asking an honest question, trying to understand. Perhaps I am way off base or just dense.

That's a good question, and of course I don't mind answering it.

Keep in mind that the first example involves resistance to my attempts to initiate communication. I've picked up on the non-verbal clues that she's irritated, and asked: What's wrong?

Instead of answering my question, the woman would respond with stony silence or even come right out and say, "If you really cared about me, this is something you would know."

The situation really does have the appearance of a test of devotion or caring. And as you say, it is an unfair and misplaced expectation.


In the second example, I am talking about the delicate balance between a partner's urge to please me as often as possible and my occasional need for solitude, distance, etc.

When I say that the right partner "just sort of seems to know what I would need or want and the appropriate time to offer it,” what I'm really saying is that she is good at reading me. Somehow she is adept at reading non-verbal clues as to my moods or desires in a given moment. This is part skill, part instinct, but mostly just a question of chemistry. It isn't really something that can be taught or expected. It's just sort of there.

The differences I see between the first example and the second are:

1 - The first really is presented as a test and an unreasonable demand, whereas the second is just something I observe but don't press on.

and

2 - There's a way to resolve the problem in the first example. (When I ask what's wrong, answer the darn question!). But there's really no substitute for chemistry in the second example. It's either there, or it's not.

 

[Soumis]

Just a couple of thoughts after reading...

I hear you, Marquis. This is often difficult for me, too.

Whenever possible, what I try to do to compensate is to break meaningful discussions about her needs/wants/problems into two parts.

In the first part, my goal is not to solve the actual problem, but simply to understand what the heck the problem truly is. Therefore, I try to say as little as possible. Often, I'll even say: Keep talking until you've said everything that's on your mind, and then let me know when you're done.

Then the very next thing I do is to check for understanding by paraphrasing what I think she just said. If I'm off the mark, she clarifies, and the process repeats itself until I really do get it.

Then we take a break, lasting anywhere from minutes to days, while I think about what she's told me, calm down if necessary, put it in perspective, etc.

Problem solving itself doesn't enter into the picture until part 2.

The difference this made in a relationship of mine is not measureable. It was a vanilla relationship that was deteriorating rapidly, and we finally came to the decision that if I wanted his help/advice with a problem than I had to ask for it. We would still vent and discuss whatever we were dealing with and support each other through it, but we didn't put energy into one another's burdens unless that effort was appreciated. This made both of us better listeners, while reducing the stress we spent fretting over problems we were not directly involved in.

In the next bit I use older and younger, but I could have used more experienced in bdsm and less experienced.

As far as the percentage of giving that Marquis discusses with submissives, this is something that I seem to notice a lot with younger people in the lifestyle. I was actually discussing this at a munch this past weekend. It seems like younger submissives AND Doms have difficulty being themselves within what they think are the confines of their role. I'm not saying (obviously) that there are not real limits within bdsm relationships, but letting them hinder expressing care/love/whatever for the other person does not make a relationship stronger. It is easy to get caught up in what I think a submissive should be, but what I "should" be can leave very little room for what I am, which is silly and overly demonstrative on occasion.

I can't think of an occasion where an older Dom was displeased by my efforts to surprise, show I care, or just plum lighten the mood, provided it was done with respect for our relationship. I have on the other hand, genuinely pissed off a young Dom for "thinking outside the leather" when it came to expressing my feelings.

Anyhow, to sum it all up, I think that people, particularly those new to the lifestyle, cling to their ideas of what they should be on occasion. When we define our roles in bdsm they should be inclusive of our personality, not instead of. When I watch people in the lifestyle who have been together for a long time they would still be "a couple" if the leather aspect disappeared. The same can't be said for a lot of newer folks. Granted, this is just my opinion.

 

[liberatedslave]

Interesting thread.
I exasperate Sir by responding "I don't mind" to enquiries about restaurants/how to spend the day etc. Genuinely wanting what he wants can leave Sir feeling like i don't have a mind of my own. When he's upset though, he internalises it almost completely & is very hard to draw out. He's naturally dominant but not really a very confident person & has moments of frighteningly low self-esteem. Generally we communicate very well but sometimes he'll just shut down & leave me feeling useless.

 

[liberatedslave]

I guess what I'm saying is that, as the dominant partner he feels that he should be able to deal with his own shit. The fact he can't talk openly makes him feel ashamed & his self-esteem falls through the floor. I try to quietly keep a dialogue going, often just filling the space between us & talking about whatever i think the issue is. This does calm him & we get back to normal again but I'm often left feeling that we haven't worked through his real hangups at all. I admire JM's approach very much.

 

[jasonlf]

I remember something a lady I knew said once, that I didn't exactly understand at the time.

She said that when she tells her little boy (7) to give her a hug, he does it, and it's sweet -- but it's those times when he just runs up and gives her a spontaneous hug, without any nudging from her, that it means the most.

For me -- I can get all the affirmation and ... well, basically anything I want by asking. Sometimes it'd be nice to not have to ask though.