THIS is PATHETIC

[Tzara]

Now just wait a minute!! What does my AV have to do with verbosity?

You need a mouth to talk. Judging from the photo, yours was surgically removed sometime in the past.

 

[Una Ryce]

My my.... once upon a time long long ago I started writing

And i will continue to do so, and share my poems as I feel that this is what I should be doing right now.

I have read this thread (twice I think) and have also read/ pondered/ and worked with most of the comments and feedback I have received - positive as well as constructive. That is who I am as a person. As a professional non fictional writer, I strive to ensure that my end product is precise, effective and successful. But when I write fiction and poetry, I am less interested in that effectiveness (so hit me) I am not saying that I do not want to be a good poet. But how does one define a good poet anyway?

I write from the heart - I write how I feel. I write what I see. Whether someone else sees the same or doesn’t is irrelevant. (Senna Jawwa referred to my poem as being "Too much around "me". " Of course it is. That is precisely the intention of the poem - to show how "She" affects "Me". So in a way that is actually a complement!) If someone can relate to my words, that makes me smile - if they don't relate - I still enjoy sharing my work.

I acknowledge that I am far from being an experienced poet - that is part of the reason I am here - to learn and grow and share my works with others. In my opinion, my thoughts and feeling come first - then i will concentrate on the detail and on how to "package" my subjective experience.

Having worked with publishers and the public eye for 15 years in a professional capacity has put me in a position where I could see Senna Jawwa's feedback as "just another comment" to consider. I will be honest and say that I was not hurt by his comment - I did however feel that he missed the point of the poem completely. I got the feeling that my poem was not read with an open "clear" mind. As if he decided that he didn't like it and then brought in the reasons as a thickening agent.

His comments around “unnecessary words” and “poor language” is exactly one of the reasons I am here – as I have posted before English is not my first language. In fact it’s my third language, yet I feel more comfortable expressing myself in English than any other language. Those comments I have heard previously and I will continue to work on my flaws.

In my eyes, to give feedback to any writer about their work (whether you are an experienced writer or not) holds a certain level of responsibility. And politeness and common decent manners and respect is always a good ground to work from. When i give feedback, even when i despise the work I am commenting on, i would go to great lengths to discuss the work, and not the person behind the work. Writing is such an incredibly intimate medium - one cannot not be touched by feedback - that would make you inhuman.

I am very aware of the fact that I am possibly making enemies here - that is not my purpose. After what has been said in this thread I think it's only fair that I be open and honest and straightforward about how I feel and what I think.

I do want to say that (without hurting anyone's feelings) the emotion and the passion that I have seen in this thread, in the poetry submissions, and on this board, has moved me deeply and it will stay with me. I honour the fact that we are all very different and subjective and human in our own way. We have our own insecurities and experiences. That is after all what makes us interesting and unique.

 

[champagne1982]

<snip>
Rarely do you see a critique that offers tips for improvement on pentameter, punctuation, rhythm, line breaks or theme. Instead it is usually a diatribe of blanket insult, ripping the submission for no offered reason other than "it sucked" or that was terrible."
<snip>
That may not take place here, I don't know, as I admittedly do not read the critiques for stated reasons (I do read the poems though). I mean my example isn't even a critique-it offers no suggestion for improvement nor does it cite what it is that is problematic in the poem-it just blanketly insults. That is my problem with the idea of critquing-that the example I give is far more often than not the norm of online criticisms that work under the guise of critique or constructive criticism. Those rare offerings of fair and helpful judgments are always beneficial and it's idealistic but I wish that such critique would become the norm rather than the infrequent.</snip>

Okay, in the first paragraph I've snipped from your post, you are explaining ideal critique. A well written critique should offer opinions on how well you used the devices included in your writing to develop theme, not an opinion on the subject matter itself (unless the poem under discussion is about, for example, the virtues (oxymoron intended) of abortion in a right-to-life publication) and possibly, thoughts on how you could make the experience of your poem better for that critic.

The point of my post, however, is that how will you know you've received constructive critique if you don't read them, as you admit? Even the comments that tell you the poem "sucked" are valid opinions of how you, as a poet, effected that particular reader with your expression. How you choose to let those comments make you feel is what determines how thick your skin is.

Unless you number the reader giving harsh opinion about your work among your acquaintances, why would you take his attack personally and let his words injure you? Objectively, when you allow that to happen, you're almost saying the reviewer is a better minimalist poet than you could ever hope to be. After all, look what happened when you read the two word poem: "This SUCKS!"

 

[Senna Jawa]

[...] I write from the heart - I write how I feel. I write what I see.

I've read only one of your poems. It's like trying just one spoon of a soup. You do get an idea of how the soup tastes.

Now tell me, do these phrases come from your heart, is it what you feel:

Sufficiently enough to be precise​

and

[...] I want more
Than mere functionalism​

I seriously doubt it. However, if that's what really comes from your heart then don't write poems from your heart, because, as we see, your heart is a source of an artistic disaster. Fill up your income tax forms with your heart. And poems write from your elbow.

I got the feeling that my poem was not read with an open "clear" mind.

You're a professional writer. Then why do you speculate about me instead of addressing the meritum? You also write about your English in general. There is nothing wrong with your command of English, it's fine. Your problems are artistic, your language in your poem is poor in the artistic sense, and not in a grammatical sense, not because you misinterpret the meaning of a word, etc. Your command of English will not help when you insert a cliche after a cliche, like "Bittersweet torture", "agile digits", "softness of the moonlight"... (there are more). Do cliches come from heart?

You've written:

As she moves
like a cat
around this chair
Silently sitting
holding me captive
with her eyes​

As a professional writer you may appreciate that it is difficult to move around the (this ) chair and to sit on it silently at the same time. But let's show a lot of good will and agree that it is the lyrical subject sitting on that chair. Then how can the other person move around the chair and at the same time keep you captive with her eyes? Do you have another pair of eyes in the back of your head?

The problems with your poem are not restricted to the language. I am sure that (unfortunately) you have written your poem from your heart. But what about the feelings of the readers? Don't you want to induce an emotion in the reader too? Instead, you suddenly introduce some demons and dreams in the last stanza, just like that. Who knows, possibly you did have some "thoughts" and "demons" and "dreams", but for a sensible reader these are just flashy words without any content.

As you see, instead of lecturing us (me, I guess) about the responsibilities of a commentator, and about politeness, you should first think about the responsibilities of an author to her audience. And since you have decided to participate in a poetic forum then why are you not concentrating on the poetry?

But since you mentioned politeness so many times, then tell me: are you condoning the uncivilized and irresponsible outburst by saldne? Because, since you mentioned politeness, that's the real issue here. Or do you think that my comment on your poem justified saldne's phrase

you're fucking rotten​

Do you approve of personal attacks in saldne's style (I quote her again):

Are you afraid she might improve and take you out of the fucking limelight or something?​

or perhaps you liked the following saldne's phrase:

I finally had enough of your conceited crap​

Did you, Una, like the above saldne's phrase? (Is it why you value saldne's "opinions")?

I do want to say that (without hurting anyone's feelings) the emotion and the passion that I have seen in this thread

Please, Una, stop this nonsense. This thread has started as a sick saldne's outburst, and there is no reason to hypocritically legitimize it. Also, her outburst had very little to do with you and your poem; it had everything to do with saldne's insecurity. She just couldn't stand being contradicted. And that's what she cares about, not about you and your poem. No, she played a role here (in her mind), and how dare I to spoil it for her?!

That is after all what makes us interesting and unique.

No, Una, the filthy, aggressive language used by saldne does not make anybody neither interesting nor unique (unfortunately--I wish it were the "unique" saldne only).

Senna Jawa​

 

[mojo_cat]

This is a pretty good thread. I'm glad people feel free to speak their minds, I haven't always felt that way here, and it's good to see I am alone in that!

I think when receiving crit it's always a good idea to consider the source. I've received some real flames for some of my stuff, and I always go and read the flamer's work before I decide if the crit is worth thinking about. Very often the work of the criticizer is terrible and I can say "well, I don't want to write like that person, and so I will not take this to heart."

When I respect the writing of the critic, I will look at their suggestions and see if I can incorporate them without overrunning what I think of as my personal style. I've had some really good suggestions, and they have helped.

But as Eve said, the quality of a lot of work here is average, because many of the writers are not poetry people usually and they're spreading their wings and trying it out. That doesn't make their contributions worthless or not worth checking out, but it does mean that there is a lot out there to comment on, and it's not always easy to be polite and helpful when the work seems unsalvageable, and you can get frustrated reading drivel over and over and wishing that people would raise the bar a bit for themselves.

I don't usually comment on everything, but if something is truly horrid I don't feel it's right to say nice things and encourage someone who obviously is never going to be a good poet, and yes I do believe that there are people like that. Those ones, I just ignore. The ones like this though are usually obvious and the writer is just submitting them because they felt it was funny or cute and don't really expect serious criticism. Some do, and I will encourage them, but some are just stopping by from the AH and posting for fun. And that's great.

I like MET's attitude of being friendly and welcoming with everyone and I think that's a great part of Lit, but i don't necessarily agree that giving honest, even harsh, criticism makes someone an elitist jerk. If something is crappy, you should feel free to say so and if it's public and the person wants opinions, there shouldn't be a guilt reflex associated with it, nor hurt feelings and anger.

Being polite about it is preferrable, though, and after the "this sucks you suck" type criticism I have received in the past myself, I do think making an effort to be honest but polite is the way to go.

JMHO.

 

[bogusbrig]

When I respect the writing of the critic, I will look at their suggestions and see if I can incorporate them without overrunning what I think of as my personal style. I've had some really good suggestions, and they have helped.

JMHO.

The truth is that a good writer is not necessarily a good critic and vice versa. The two have completely different roles and are two entirely different skills.

Best to judge a critique on its own merits.

 

[mojo_cat]

The truth is that a good writer is not necessarily a good critic and vice versa. The two have completely different roles and are two entirely different skills.

Best to judge a critique on its own merits.

I don't think that's "the truth" at all, I disagree completely. If someone writes work, they tend to try to write what they think is good. I don't think anyone purposely writes something that goes against what they believe is good writing. Therefore, their criticism will reflect their opinion of what is good, effective writing. If I think their work is shoddy or just plain bad, then we most likely disagree on what good writing is, so I will not take their suggestion as seriously since they will be suggesting something along the lines of what they feel is good.

It's impossible to be completely objective while experiencing art; you will always bring your own experiences and preconceptions, and that is part of art's beauty, that it can mean many things to many people. Therefore, if I feel that the artist in question has vastly different ideas about the art than my own, no, I won't take their comments to heart because we have different goals with our work and they may be suggesting a road I have no interest in and do not wish to travel down. That's basically what I'm trying to say with these 2 posts.

It's all subjective, anyways, no two people will ever exactly agree on art of any form, and if they do, they will be coming from different perspectives and experiences. So if the authour of "Roses are red, violets are blue, I have a big cock and I wanna fuck you" leaves comments on my poem with "this is gay u suck" (this is a pretty close rendition of a comment I received about two years ago) then no, sorry, I won't take their criticism very seriously. If the author's work seems to be a genuine effort and I think it's good, I will listen.

 

[Senna Jawa]

[...] I disagree completely.[...]

Mojo & Bogo, can we move this mojo's highly interesting and new topic to a new thread? I agree with both of you despite your disagreement. I'd explain in a new thread. It's a multidimensional question.

Senna Jawa​

 

[bogusbrig]

I'd be interested in what other people think but I wouldn't trust the critical faculties of an illiterate but I stick to my view that serious criticism is a different skill to writing.

 

[mojo_cat]

I'd be interested in what other people think but I wouldn't trust the critical faculties of an illiterate but I stick to my view that serious criticism is a different skill to writing.

I agree that it's a different skill, for sure, but I'm saying that that skill is not usually present in someone who is a lousy writer.

I'm editing the rest of this because I want to see what SJ comes up with for his thread and because I'm having a really shitty birthday so far and I don't feel up to intellectual debate quite yet today. I will, however, drop in one of my favourite quotes that sort of sums up how I feel about this subject:

"Well, Art is Art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water. And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh...now you tell me what you know."
Groucho Marx

 

[Guest]

I've read only one of your poems. It's like trying just one spoon of a soup. You do get an idea of how the soup tastes.

Now tell me, do these phrases come from your heart, is it what you feel:

Sufficiently enough to be precise​

and

[...] I want more
Than mere functionalism​

I seriously doubt it. However, if that's what really comes from your heart then don't write poems from your heart, because, as we see, your heart is a source of an artistic disaster. Fill up your income tax forms with your heart. And poems write from your elbow.

You are telling someone they don't write from their heart. How could even say such a thing? I'm sure you're right inside her heart and soul, huh? You know everything going on. You said, "Fill up your income tax forms with your heart. And poems write from your elbow." Boy, oh boy! How do you make it on the outside world with all the sarcasm and heartless talk? And you mention MY insecurities?? How can any of what I said be about my insecurities? I'm addressing you and how I feel about your cold comments you leave on other people's poetry.

You're a professional writer.

I don't believe anyone here on Literotica is a professional writer. Sorry Una and sorry to the others who believe that. It's a really bad term/word to be throwing around. You certainly wouldn't be posting or submitting your work to a place called Literotica if you were. My take.

The problems with your poem are not restricted to the language. I am sure that (unfortunately) you have written your poem from your heart.

"Unfortunately?" Another cut from Senna.

As you see, instead of lecturing us (me, I guess) about the responsibilities of a commentator, and about politeness, you should first think about the responsibilities of an author to her audience. And since you have decided to participate in a poetic forum then why are you not concentrating on the poetry?

Do you honestly think she's giving you a lecture? Paranoia! Paranoia, once again.

Also, are you telling Una she can't participate on this forum? She should be writing poetry right this minute, huh? She can't take a moment of her time to voice her opinion or try to explain her work to others? Gimmie a break!

But since you mentioned politeness so many times, then tell me: are you condoning the uncivilized and irresponsible outburst by saldne? Because, since you mentioned politeness, that's the real issue here. Or do you think that my comment on your poem justified saldne's phrase

you're fucking rotten​

Do you approve of personal attacks in saldne's style (I quote her again):

Are you afraid she might improve and take you out of the fucking limelight or something?​

or perhaps you liked the following saldne's phrase:

I finally had enough of your conceited crap​

Did you, Una, like the above saldne's phrase? (Is it why you value saldne's "opinions")?

You forgot one. "You get a boner every time you insult." Oh boy! My nipples just got hard. We're so much alike, Senna. We're so much alike! <dripping with sarcasm>

Please, Una, stop this nonsense. This thread has started as a sick saldne's outburst, and there is no reason to hypocritically legitimize it. Also, her outburst had very little to do with you and your poem; it had everything to do with saldne's insecurity. She just couldn't stand being contradicted. And that's what she cares about, not about you and your poem. No, she played a role here (in her mind), and how dare I to spoil it for her?!

Please tell me what my insecurities are. Are you inside my mind too? Wow. How do you do this with so many people?

Standing up for a new poet doesn't make me insecure. Maybe, just maybe, I have a heart. Lightbulb, lightbulb!

No, Una, the filthy, aggressive language used by saldne does not make anybody neither interesting nor unique (unfortunately--I wish it were the "unique" saldne only).

Senna Jawa​

Again, Senna met his match but one with a little more class. I think you have the same illness in my sig line. What are we gonna do, Senna? What in God's name are we gonna do?



Did I say I was done? Oops, guess not.

 

[twelveoone]

This would put us back to the statement to only take to heart those critiques by those with "Credentials" ....for all else are simply 'critics in training' or honest opinions of how the poem made them feel.

Ange listens to Senna because of his credentials? I would cast his comment in delete and not think twice about it. For there are way to many polite members here willing to help with a volley of friendly communication.

and I put Tara in the same list as Senna, 1201, sack and........those I do not listen to because they lack social skills and do not communicate well with others that are not at their level of elitism.

WOW ​

You would cast those comments in delete (MET must think he is casting out devils) because they are true and it might interfere with your exaggerated opinion of yourself.

Now lets talk about the friendly communication, social skills of some of your perverse outbursts.
What do you think of the ethics of constantly trying to link to link me to anonymous activity? Answer me evasion boy.

Now, I would think Senna Jawa , has even more right to say what he thinks, ,certainly than you do because he is much closer to the truth than you will ever be.

Note: to WickedEve, he's starting again, isn't he? I'm responding.

 

[twelveoone]

I acknowledge that I am far from being an experienced poet - that is part of the reason I am here - to learn and grow and share my works with others. In my opinion, my thoughts and feeling come first - then i will concentrate on the detail and on how to "package" my subjective experience.

Having worked with publishers and the public eye for 15 years in a professional capacity has put me in a position where I could see Senna Jawwa's feedback as "just another comment" to consider. I will be honest and say that I was not hurt by his comment - I did however feel that he missed the point of the poem completely. I got the feeling that my poem was not read with an open "clear" mind. As if he decided that he didn't like it and then brought in the reasons as a thickening agent.

His comments around “unnecessary words” and “poor language” is exactly one of the reasons I am here – as I have posted before English is not my first language. In fact it’s my third language, yet I feel more comfortable expressing myself in English than any other language. Those comments I have heard previously and I will continue to work on my flaws.

and further more...
can i tell you, I love you?

 

[WickedEve]

Note: to WickedEve, he's starting again, isn't he? I'm responding.

Passing notes on the board? People will talk. They will say we are sexually involved. They will send me PMs asking personal questions about which positions we enjoy. They'll expect me to have a pet name for your penis--like six.

 

[wildsweetone]

Passing notes on the board? People will talk. They will say we are sexually involved. They will send me PMs asking personal questions about which positions we enjoy. They'll expect me to have a pet name for your penis--like six.

between you and Fly i have no need for the glass teat.



you two keep me going for days. i bet you didn't know that.

 

[flyguy69]

between you and Fly i have no need for the glass teat.

....

Is that like an emergency breast? "In case of extreme horniness, break glass"

 

[WickedEve]

Is that like an emergency breast? "In case of extreme horniness, break glass"

Hee hee.
I want a glass teat! What is a glass teat?

 

[WickedEve]

between you and Fly i have no need for the glass teat.



you two keep me going for days. i bet you didn't know that.

Glass teat? Booze? I want to use that phrase in a poem.

 

[twelveoone]

Passing notes on the board? People will talk. They will say we are sexually involved. They will send me PMs asking personal questions about which positions we enjoy. They'll expect me to have a pet name for your penis--like six.

six o what?

 

[wildsweetone]

glass teat? have you never heard that expression? where have you been???

it's another name for the square box.

 

[WickedEve]

glass teat? have you never heard that expression? where have you been???

it's another name for the square box.

What sqaure box?!! Vagina? No, it's not square.

 

[WickedEve]

six o what?

Your penis is just six. Live with it.

 

[wildsweetone]

the thing that sits in the corner of the room. it's in nearly everyone's house. do you mean to say you don't have one?

 

[DeepAsleep]

PSA:

Sometimes, I just want to kick all of you in the face. Because I love you.

RIGHT IN THE FUCKING FACE, YOU FUCKERS.

~R
...I curse unnecessarily. And I misspell things.

 

[WickedEve]

the thing that sits in the corner of the room. it's in nearly everyone's house. do you mean to say you don't have one?

Accordion?