Tihmmnmmish's Very Laid-Back Summery Poolside Threadcast

[wildsweetone]

I think the isolation is true of all addictions, as you suggested. Once I had progressed beyond just drinking too much and too often I could be in a bar with lots of other people and sometimes feel so alone. Early on I attributed my drinking to my extreme dejection over an unrequited love, but I now think I would have become alcoholic anyway, although likely on a different path. This lost love is the regrets I referred to earlier - they've come back, in spite of my needs in that area being currently met.

I think trying to do it oneself can also be a trait of the alcoholic or addict as well. And not just when I was out there, but today as well. A lot of the workplace jargon these days is about collaboration and teamwork, but I generally one of those who does his best stuff on my own. Pragmatically, they appear to recognize that.

I mentioned the Oxford Movement mostly as a historical footnote. I believe it was much more focused on a Christian, rather than simply a spiritual approach.

Sounds like your getting to some meetings. You might find some benefit from open AA meetings as well. Have you found a sponsor?

as a codependent, i transferred anger and denied grief. anger was transferred out of fear, and grief was denied due to what others thought/expected from me. i had to learn what both those emotions really felt like and had to learn how to deal with them appropriately. i am still learning those two.

one thing i learnt about grief is that a loss is not something that you deal with and then it's over and done with for life. loss is something that comes back maybe a couple of times in your life, or maybe often. the more we put it off, the harder it becomes to deal with when it comes back to bite us. the important thing i learnt was that loss is something that is forever lost and so it's obvious it's going to come back and hurt to varying degrees at different times in our life.

i think maybe regrets mainly fall under the 'grief' banner.

so maybe you need to give yourself a break with that one.

interesting you talk about workplace... working systems are often set up in a codependent manner here in NZ, to a lesser degree in overseas countries. even going shopping is often set up as codependency. it's wrong and not healthy, but it's very difficult to combat something that has spread like a cancer through society.

today was a rough day for me, but i'll see if i can look up about the Oxford Movement tomorrow or in the next few days. it sounds interesting

i haven't been to AA meetings, only counsellor meetings but those have made a fairly huge difference in my life. in a little while when i'm closer to being up and running again, i'll ask about going to an open AA meeting. i can't do much at the moment. there is suddenly no stress in my life and my body is trying to figure out how to deal with that so it's chucking stuff at me to deal with. exhaustion kicks in constantly so i just have to let that get through my system before i take a different tangent in my healing.

so no, i don't have a sponsor. do adult children of alcoholics have sponsors too? i thought they were just for the alcoholics. (i'm pretty ignorant about these things, so thanks for helping me out).

 

[EroticOrogeny]

as a codependent, i transferred anger and denied grief. anger was transferred out of fear, and grief was denied due to what others thought/expected from me. i had to learn what both those emotions really felt like and had to learn how to deal with them appropriately. i am still learning those two.

one thing i learnt about grief is that a loss is not something that you deal with and then it's over and done with for life. loss is something that comes back maybe a couple of times in your life, or maybe often. the more we put it off, the harder it becomes to deal with when it comes back to bite us. the important thing i learnt was that loss is something that is forever lost and so it's obvious it's going to come back and hurt to varying degrees at different times in our life.

i think maybe regrets mainly fall under the 'grief' banner.

so maybe you need to give yourself a break with that one.

interesting you talk about workplace... working systems are often set up in a codependent manner here in NZ, to a lesser degree in overseas countries. even going shopping is often set up as codependency. it's wrong and not healthy, but it's very difficult to combat something that has spread like a cancer through society.

today was a rough day for me, but i'll see if i can look up about the Oxford Movement tomorrow or in the next few days. it sounds interesting

i haven't been to AA meetings, only counsellor meetings but those have made a fairly huge difference in my life. in a little while when i'm closer to being up and running again, i'll ask about going to an open AA meeting. i can't do much at the moment. there is suddenly no stress in my life and my body is trying to figure out how to deal with that so it's chucking stuff at me to deal with. exhaustion kicks in constantly so i just have to let that get through my system before i take a different tangent in my healing.

so no, i don't have a sponsor. do adult children of alcoholics have sponsors too? i thought they were just for the alcoholics. (i'm pretty ignorant about these things, so thanks for helping me out).

I do try and give myself a break over the regret issue. My rational mind understands that its past and tries to come up reasons to help understand. I wouldn't be doing those things if the feelings kept quiet, but they don't. Some sort of reactivation of old mental patterns. I think I'm understanding more and working on these things is primarily for my peace of mind, rather than for a more concrete purpose. The important thing to keep in mind is doing it a day at a time - this too shall pass.

Are you continuing to eat well and get a nights sleep? Those can help. Early on in sobering up alcoholics no longer have that 'lights out' knockout, so initial sleep may be difficult. I'm long past that, but continue trying to eat right and get good sleep.

I know Al-anons have sponsors, so I would expect that other 12 step programs would also. Make sure you spend some time with those who have more recovery - stick with the winners.

 

[wildsweetone]

I do try and give myself a break over the regret issue. My rational mind understands that its past and tries to come up reasons to help understand. I wouldn't be doing those things if the feelings kept quiet, but they don't. Some sort of reactivation of old mental patterns. I think I'm understanding more and working on these things is primarily for my peace of mind, rather than for a more concrete purpose. The important thing to keep in mind is doing it a day at a time - this too shall pass.

Are you continuing to eat well and get a nights sleep? Those can help. Early on in sobering up alcoholics no longer have that 'lights out' knockout, so initial sleep may be difficult. I'm long past that, but continue trying to eat right and get good sleep.

I know Al-anons have sponsors, so I would expect that other 12 step programs would also. Make sure you spend some time with those who have more recovery - stick with the winners.

in my case, it's not alcohol that is the addiction i have. it's codependency. in NZ codependency is the number one addiction, after that comes alcohol, gambling, and then all the illegal drugs. 90% of NZers are codependent. 10% are narcissists. i don't know the percentage of the other addictions/disorders. those are the two that relate for me.

the sleeping issue is rough at the moment. i was sleeping well and then when i separated, my sleeping went up the booai again. i'm pretty erratic with it - if i sleep through the night it's about 5 hours or so. if i don't sleep through, i seem to be waking three or four times. either way i tend to get exhausted pretty quickly.

i know it'll settle. but the blood pressure going up and down and the blood sugar levels going up and down don't seem to be evening out just yet. i have some anger to work through - i think i found it last night but have to find an appropriate way of letting it out - using apunch bag would be ideal but i have a torn muscle and that will not be good for it. so i have to figure out another way.

eating is weird. something that seems really appealing manages to last about two mouthfuls and then starts tasting like cardboard. i'm managing breakfast okay (i have a healthy day menu on the fridge that i look at when i'm stuck). but lunch isn't appealing at all. dinner - hmm i'm being looked after in that area. where i'm staying, they're making sure i eat an evening meal. i've eaten a bit of junk food - just quick small snack type things in the last couple of weeks and i know that's not good but it's about all i can swallow at the moment. i know i'm not drinking as much as i need to too. i have to work on that.

there used to be codependent meetings here like AA meetings, but they ended up not working because everyone became more codependent on each other.

my counsellor i guess is my equivalent to your sponsor. she's great and i see her weekly. i have the ability to call her at any time and i've only used that once in the last six months.

i have a measure of depression. there's no black nasty place, but there's exhaustion and lethargy and inability to focus, slowed reactions etc. i'm trying to let my body work it off itself without having to go down the antidepressant meds route. my counsellor is taking note of those things and will send me in that direction if there's no improvement in the next week or so. i'm not going to be very happy about having to take them.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Someone asked me recently 'have I moved on?' and it got me wondering as to what moving on really is. I live a normal adult life I'm not addicted to anything so is that enough to say I have? I doubt it as even though the exterior say yes I am a survivor inside buried away is that child with no hope and carrying a barrel load of guilt. Tell me over and over again that I was a child and none of it was fault until you are blue in the face, because I know and nothing will ever change that knowledge of guilt.

 

[EroticOrogeny]

in my case, it's not alcohol that is the addiction i have. it's codependency. in NZ codependency is the number one addiction, after that comes alcohol, gambling, and then all the illegal drugs. 90% of NZers are codependent. 10% are narcissists. i don't know the percentage of the other addictions/disorders. those are the two that relate for me.

the sleeping issue is rough at the moment. i was sleeping well and then when i separated, my sleeping went up the booai again. i'm pretty erratic with it - if i sleep through the night it's about 5 hours or so. if i don't sleep through, i seem to be waking three or four times. either way i tend to get exhausted pretty quickly.

i know it'll settle. but the blood pressure going up and down and the blood sugar levels going up and down don't seem to be evening out just yet. i have some anger to work through - i think i found it last night but have to find an appropriate way of letting it out - using apunch bag would be ideal but i have a torn muscle and that will not be good for it. so i have to figure out another way.

eating is weird. something that seems really appealing manages to last about two mouthfuls and then starts tasting like cardboard. i'm managing breakfast okay (i have a healthy day menu on the fridge that i look at when i'm stuck). but lunch isn't appealing at all. dinner - hmm i'm being looked after in that area. where i'm staying, they're making sure i eat an evening meal. i've eaten a bit of junk food - just quick small snack type things in the last couple of weeks and i know that's not good but it's about all i can swallow at the moment. i know i'm not drinking as much as i need to too. i have to work on that.

there used to be codependent meetings here like AA meetings, but they ended up not working because everyone became more codependent on each other.

my counsellor i guess is my equivalent to your sponsor. she's great and i see her weekly. i have the ability to call her at any time and i've only used that once in the last six months.

i have a measure of depression. there's no black nasty place, but there's exhaustion and lethargy and inability to focus, slowed reactions etc. i'm trying to let my body work it off itself without having to go down the antidepressant meds route. my counsellor is taking note of those things and will send me in that direction if there's no improvement in the next week or so. i'm not going to be very happy about having to take them.

In many ways those problems are harder than chemical (alcohol, drugs), since the alcoholic/addict can stop taking them. That leaves us with life's problems to still deal with, but at least I can say at the end of the day that I didn't drink.
We claim spiritual progress, not perfection.

It may be difficult in these scheduled times, but I heard that the notion of sleeping thru the night may be a myth - our less time-harried ancestors would often get up at times during the night for a bit. I hope you're able to stabilize w/o meds, but perhaps its just for a short while - you're going thru signicant changes.

Take care.

 

[EroticOrogeny]

Someone asked me recently 'have I moved on?' and it got me wondering as to what moving on really is. I live a normal adult life I'm not addicted to anything so is that enough to say I have? I doubt it as even though the exterior say yes I am a survivor inside buried away is that child with no hope and carrying a barrel load of guilt. Tell me over and over again that I was a child and none of it was fault until you are blue in the face, because I know and nothing will ever change that knowledge of guilt.

I think you've brought up a key point. We often judge others outsides against our insides.

 

[wildsweetone]

In many ways those problems are harder than chemical (alcohol, drugs), since the alcoholic/addict can stop taking them. That leaves us with life's problems to still deal with, but at least I can say at the end of the day that I didn't drink.
We claim spiritual progress, not perfection.

It may be difficult in these scheduled times, but I heard that the notion of sleeping thru the night may be a myth - our less time-harried ancestors would often get up at times during the night for a bit. I hope you're able to stabilize w/o meds, but perhaps its just for a short while - you're going thru signicant changes.

Take care.

i think it's not just the addiction side of the codependency that's a problem but it's also the emotional abuse that is part and parcel of the whole deal. emotional abuse is harder to deal with than physical abuse, i know. but with codependency you can't not meet people so you have to learn skills to stop the emotional abuse happening. it's taken me 6 months to get to the point where i can fairly easily recognise covert codependency, but am still a youngster when it comes to the overt stuff. and there's a world of difference between recognising it and having the skills not to be dragged back into it. but it's no good hiding away, i need practice and i need to be in contact with other people to be able to practise the skills i'm learning. in a way, it's like an alcoholic having to walk into a bar dozens of times every single day and not be tempted to take a drink, no matter how sweetly it's offered each time.

sleep will come when my system's evened out a bit. hopefully and today i've decided that yeah, if i need a little help with that for however long, then sobeit. i've come to recognise i need help with a few things lately.

thanks for your help by the way. it's not often i get a chance to talk about this stuff and it's interesting to get another person's thoughts on addictions.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

When you are 'stunted' by other peoples actions especially in your growing years, you don't really know how to act and react to the world out there. You've never been taught the proper social skills and it does hold you back it's like being dumped on an alien planet where they speak an entirely different language .... everyone else knows but somehow you can't grasp all the nuances and you stumble on hoping somewhere along the line you'll find the right things to say and do.

 

[wildsweetone]

When you are 'stunted' by other peoples actions especially in your growing years, you don't really know how to act and react to the world out there. You've never been taught the proper social skills and it does hold you back it's like being dumped on an alien planet where they speak an entirely different language .... everyone else knows but somehow you can't grasp all the nuances and you stumble on hoping somewhere along the line you'll find the right things to say and do.

for me, that was not something that could be worked out on my own. guidance has put me on the path to becoming well. if i hadn't asked for help, i'd still be stuck in the same bad place i'd been for 47 years.

from a baby we learn how to interact with others by examples we are shown from those around us. when those examples are not healthy ways of life, we don't know any better until we are older and things start going wrong. we might get depression. we might be in an abusive relationship. we might be abusing others. we might simply feel that we don't fit in. we might have a serious illness. lots of different things that add up to us not living to our true self in an honest and self loving way.

when we are living true to our selfs and in a self loving way, then we have peace of mind and are healthy, we have the ability to say 'no', to tell the plain truth without beating around the bush, we have the skills and knowledge to stop others from crossing the boundaries of self loving that we have learnt to erect to keep us safe and loved.

we also have the ability to see that it is not really another person's fault that we are the way we are. they may have brought us up in a wrong way, but they most likely did not know any better themselves.

so, with all the incorrect learning we have used to live our lives, there is a lot of un-learning to do and a lot of new skills to learn to be able to live healthier.

for me, this new path began when i realised i could not fix something myself. i went for help to find out what else i could do. that's a classic codependent trait. and because of that, i began my road to getting well. i have been taught the correct skills i need to use in order to live healthy. they didn't come naturally when i realised i wasn't coping. i had to learn them from a healthy professional.

one of the most important things i've learnt is that it's okay for me to ask for help when i'm out of my depth. and the help is always right there when i need it. all the support is right there.

i'm thankful i'm going through this now and not when i'm 67, or 87. what a waste of a wonderful life that would have been. at least now i've got time to live healthy and in peace (or chaos if i choose it) - therein lays the beauty, i get to choose exactly how i want to live and that's the coolest thing.

i have a second chance at life and i'm only going to be concerned with living my own life however i want to live it. all i had to do was to ask for help.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I'm glad you found the right help when I reached out for help I got entirely the wrong person. Someone that had been abused herself but she kept telling me her story and I didn't need her guilt trip as well, she kept saying she shouldn't be telling me things that it was against the rule and policies of her training. Yeah well those rules were there for a purpose because she did eff all for me. Just one more person who let me down and sent my trust and lack of self esteem spiralling even further downwards

 

[wildsweetone]

I'm glad you found the right help when I reached out for help I got entirely the wrong person. Someone that had been abused herself but she kept telling me her story and I didn't need her guilt trip as well, she kept saying she shouldn't be telling me things that it was against the rule and policies of her training. Yeah well those rules were there for a purpose because she did eff all for me. Just one more person who let me down and sent my trust and lack of self esteem spiralling even further downwards

do you only get one chance of finding the right help where you live? sorry i don't know your laws or medical policies. here we are lucky i guess. if we don't connect in an appropriate and good way with the first professional, we can look elsewhere many times until we can find the right person who will help in a professional manner.

if we're looking for help, i don't think anyone else has the right to take away our need. our need still exists and needs to be met. i won't allow my ex, or my parents to take one more moment of my time and do what they want with it. it's my time, my life and i'll be the one making the choices for myself.

i had something similar happen to me in '98. depression hit me and wiped me out for a while. i went to the doctor asking for some kind of help. he sat forward on his chair looked at the ground to purposely avoide eye contact with me and said 'tell me what's happening in your life?' i said, 'if i started talking about everything it would take me 6 months.' he said, 'okay here's a note, you can have a week off work'.

i went on from that point at the end of '98 to the end of 09' spiralling down in my addiction. i could have been given help in '98, but the health professional i saw did not have the skills to send me in the right direction.

what a waste of another 11 years of my life.

if you get a chance and are able, it is your right to find the right help for you.

Article 3 in The Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.​

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I suppose if I wanted to look I could but I don't know if I would have to pay the 1st counsellor was free up to a point then I was told to pay ..... I think a lot of mine is a deep seated anger and sadness that the perpetrators will never be made to pay or explain why now as they are all dead. No amount of counselling is going to bring that about

 

[wildsweetone]

I suppose if I wanted to look I could but I don't know if I would have to pay the 1st counsellor was free up to a point then I was told to pay ..... I think a lot of mine is a deep seated anger and sadness that the perpetrators will never be made to pay or explain why now as they are all dead. No amount of counselling is going to bring that about

i have difficulties with repressed grief and transferred anger. i have just received a book my consellor wants me to work through - The Grief Club (The Secret to Getting Through All Kinds of Change) by Melody Beattie. if you like, i can let you know how i get on with it. it looks really interesting actually, and covers all manner of things. i know how much help her codependency book gave me, so i've no doubt whatsoever that this one will help too.

sorry but my focus is shot to hell today, i hope some this makes sense.

i'll try reading and working through the book when i'm able.

The Grief Club by Melody Beattie

a thought just struck me. i don't know how long ago you looked for help, but there's a fairly good chance that rules/regulations/policies may have changed since then, and to your own benefit. it might well be worth just making a phone call to a professional to find out. the worst you could find out would be you couldn't get help, but i doubt that's going to happen somehow. at the very least, you could get yourself a copy of that book and work through it by yourself (a library might even have it so the cost would be minimal). but it would probably be more helpful to have some guidance or someone you can bounce your thoughts/questions off with.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I don't know that I want to dig it all out again quite frankly that sort of thing hurts too much I've had enough pain to last a lifetime and I know you are supposed to get it all out before it can heal but I just don't feel strong enough especially after being so ill last year

 

[wildsweetone]

I don't know that I want to dig it all out again quite frankly that sort of thing hurts too much I've had enough pain to last a lifetime and I know you are supposed to get it all out before it can heal but I just don't feel strong enough especially after being so ill last year

you are the only one who knows when the time is right for you and which direction you want to take. *hug* just keep in the back of your mind that there is good professional help out there with the ability to give you a comfortable and safe environment in which to work.

 

[EroticOrogeny]

I don't know that I want to dig it all out again quite frankly that sort of thing hurts too much I've had enough pain to last a lifetime and I know you are supposed to get it all out before it can heal but I just don't feel strong enough especially after being so ill last year

I thing I've heard is that we act when the pain of the solution is less that the pain of the problem.

We never head out one fine day and say "I think its time I address ___".
There are many ways we can redirect ourselves from these persistent problems.
With something like drinking or an abusive relationship we need to take care of first things first, and address that problem. Even if the sleeping dogs are restless, perhaps they're not too much underfoot, especially if we can move on in another direction.

 

[EroticOrogeny]

do you only get one chance of finding the right help where you live? sorry i don't know your laws or medical policies. here we are lucky i guess. if we don't connect in an appropriate and good way with the first professional, we can look elsewhere many times until we can find the right person who will help in a professional manner.

if we're looking for help, i don't think anyone else has the right to take away our need. our need still exists and needs to be met. i won't allow my ex, or my parents to take one more moment of my time and do what they want with it. it's my time, my life and i'll be the one making the choices for myself.

i had something similar happen to me in '98. depression hit me and wiped me out for a while. i went to the doctor asking for some kind of help. he sat forward on his chair looked at the ground to purposely avoide eye contact with me and said 'tell me what's happening in your life?' i said, 'if i started talking about everything it would take me 6 months.' he said, 'okay here's a note, you can have a week off work'.

i went on from that point at the end of '98 to the end of 09' spiralling down in my addiction. i could have been given help in '98, but the health professional i saw did not have the skills to send me in the right direction.

what a waste of another 11 years of my life.

if you get a chance and are able, it is your right to find the right help for you.

Article 3 in The Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.​

Sounds like you found someone who was just collecting his paycheck without really doing his job. A long time ago the court ordered me to go to these meetings, some sort of group therapy (lots were kids is some sort of trouble at home, and perhaps the law). One of the counselors there took an interest in me (a now sober alcoholic) and tried to get me to take a closer look at my drinking, but I wasn't ready at the time - still in too much denial. I had several more years to go before making a real start on the solution for me. I really could have benefited from recovery much earlier, but wasn't aware of a real solution. My years out there weren't a total waste, I did finish my BS and get my MS as a drunk.
I am grateful that I am now continuing to live in my solution, even if things in the past could have been different.

I really like your reference there The Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
May have had it in high school history class, but it didn't make much of a mark. I recall more Wilson's failure to get the League of Nations started.

Sometimes I think we remember the bad things more readily then the good things. Perhaps I'm fortunate in that there's really just one major bad period, which was preceded and followed by basically good periods. But its so easy to forget the good - an attitude of gratitude helps.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I have huge chunks of my childhood missing and a lot of it is good stuff and it's been only my sister talking about it that made me realise I wasn't remembering on my own if you see what I mean. Things like I forgot my father had a brother! There are bad bits blocked too things I know are there on the edge of reality but I reckon they are gone forever which is probably for a reason.
EO I am curious and you don't need to answer but was the drinking a symptom for something deeper troubling you?

 

[EroticOrogeny]

I have huge chunks of my childhood missing and a lot of it is good stuff and it's been only my sister talking about it that made me realise I wasn't remembering on my own if you see what I mean. Things like I forgot my father had a brother! There are bad bits blocked too things I know are there on the edge of reality but I reckon they are gone forever which is probably for a reason.
EO I am curious and you don't need to answer but was the drinking a symptom for something deeper troubling you?

Lots of these things may not really be gone, but just deeply buried. Whether or not its worth digging them out is another question. I've heard hypnotism can do that, but have no firsthand knowledge. But others are lost. Some things O'd like to ask my mother now, but didn't think of when she was around, for example.

Drinking was a symptom, as well as a problem in its own right. One reason I drank was to blank out the pain of an unrequited love, quite possibly brought about in part by my extreme fear and inhibitions back then. Early on in my recovery I attributed my desire to drink to that cause. But I also found partying fun, and didn't seem to know when to say when. At one point early in my drinking I went into a favorite pub to have a sandwich and a beer between classes and such. For a brief moment the thought "I have a taste for this" crossed my mind. I passed it off and went about my usual ways. This was an early sign that I had a physical affinity for alcohol. I now believe I would have become an alcoholic even without that misfortune turning point in my emotional world. Might have been a slower progression, but at this point its starting to get into fiction. My recovery has involved dealing with a spiritual solution to my life, rather than just not drinking, with all else being the same. I now have a set of tools which help me to live. Sometimes I wish I had them long ago, but comes down to live and learn.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

Didn't anybody submit an erotic poem in May 2009?

 

[hmmnmm]

Didn't anybody submit an erotic poem in May 2009?

had a couple but I don't like 'em anymore so I sent in a deletion request, but they're sure taking a while to process it. Got the itch to get back to some old style feel. It was good to apply the focal facilities to it.

 

[EroticOrogeny]

Didn't anybody submit an erotic poem in May 2009?

I had one for a recent challenge in the main poetry forum. And quite a few just for my wife.

Welcome back - how are you doing ?

 

[EroticOrogeny]

Here its definately summer - getting into the 90's already!

 

[UnderYourSpell]

and here also altho I think it's about to change in the next few days, hope it's nice at the weekend though for the County Show

 

[EroticOrogeny]

Good to hear you're getting a break for a bit. Unlikely here until October. And I'd rather just have it hot than a hurricane. We did get a break Saturday before last when it rained all day, but forcast now jas chances of slim or none.