To the Critics....

[Joseki Ko]

2 cents worth

Hmm. Lost of misread intention here today.

1. To me it seems like almost all of you misunderstood the content of the original post here. I think Elizabetht's post was not about the justification for critisism in genneral. What got her rallied up was the fact that the whole poem had been rewritten in a "here's how I would had done it" kind of way. I don't agree that it was that preposterous, but I can understand what she mean. None of your replys seems to adress this.

2. The intent of Jim's comment was also misread, as pointed out earlier. He likes the poem, he gives it a shiny 5 and then offers a suggection on how to make it not a better poem, but only more haiku, since it after all was intended as one. The title even says so.

Now, generally speaking, I write for three reasons. First of all for me, because I have things that I feel the need to put into words. I also write to learn how to express myslef. Those two often correlate, but not always. I have poems neatly tucked away that are very important to me, but that are too cryptic to comprehend, like a language of my own. There is one last reason: That I actually am cocky enough to think that what I write can make a differrence to someone else.

Those two last reasons are the ones that makes me show my poems to the world. I don't care either or if people like them, but I do care that they understand them.

I posted a poem some months ago, and got so many "wtf does it mean?" comments and mails that I decided to pull it from the site. That was not because of the "you don't understand me" syndrome, but the exact opposite, the "I don't understand you". And before I did understand, and learn to communicate, I should not give you such personal poems to mis-read.

Everything I post here, in threads or on the site, are there because I want to know if it communicates or not, and if anyone have any good ideas how I could improve the communication.

So please, dissect me.

Ok my 2 cents in here, Lin I see what your saying I just don't agree with some parts.

Yes Elizabetht's origional post was of the how dare you rewrite it kind of thing.

And Jim's post was on how to make it more Haiku

Ok there's the basic argument should it be a better Haiku or a personal poem based on the authors expieience and vision.

I posted to Budded Haiku as well.

Jim I thought your comments were out of line simply because it was a good poem all by itself. It shouldn't be MORE Haiku it should be Echo_s interpretaion of her vision. Ok yes it should be readable by all, but we all read into it what we want.

(I believe) You saw an expression of nature observed in her poem.

What I saw was her life expressed through a vision of nature.

Should you stop posting your comments or just post meaningless plattitudes? The answer is no.

Might it be worth your time to look at the individual behind the writing? The answer is yes.

Not all poems will fit into a neat little box, nor should they, that would be censorship.

Ok that wasn't two cents it was more like a buck and a quarter.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I too don't think I missed any point. All I said remains as my valid opinion.

Like OT said, there's nothing more effective than to show what you mean when you're critiquing a poem. Offer alternatives. Make suggestions. If you think you know of a way to make the third verse of the 16th stanza stronger, great. If you can make justified, well-thought suggestions for each and every one of the verses of a poem, It doesn't get any better than that.

You're the author. You'll consider if any of those changes can make your poem better, you'll take what you want and toss the rest. It's your prorrogative.

Of course that with people reacting this way, who will ever want to help other poets to better themselves? This sort of childish behaviour really gets on my nerves.




Lin-
I'm very proud of having had the presence of mind to save that poem before you had it removed. I still think it is one of the most profound and emotional pieces you have written.

 

[Linbido]

Re: 2 cents worth

Ok my 2 cents in here, Lin I see what your saying I just don't agree with some parts.

Yes Elizabetht's origional post was of the how dare you rewrite it kind of thing.

And Jim's post was on how to make it more Haiku

Ok there's the basic argument should it be a better Haiku or a personal poem based on the authors expieience and vision.

I posted to Budded Haiku as well.

Jim I thought your comments were out of line simply because it was a good poem all by itself. It shouldn't be MORE Haiku it should be Echo_s interpretaion of her vision. Ok yes it should be readable by all, but we all read into it what we want.

(I believe) You saw an expression of nature observed in her poem.

What I saw was her life expressed through a vision of nature.

Should you stop posting your comments or just post meaningless plattitudes? The answer is no.

Might it be worth your time to look at the individual behind the writing? The answer is yes.

Not all poems will fit into a neat little box, nor should they, that would be censorship.

Ok that wasn't two cents it was more like a buck and a quarter.

Censorship? It's not about fitting into a little box.

The whole debacle is that it was intended to be a haiku poem. It was labelled, by echoes herself, to be one.

If I write a sestina that is almost a proper sestina, let's say I switched two lines, or got the meter wrong on one line, I'd sure want someone who knows sestinas to point that out for me. It doesn't matter if it is the most fantastic poem ever written, there are specific guidelines on how to write in that form. Same thing with a haiku, except that it is not meter and rhyme that is the main guidelines.

It's another, more specific and restricted form of poetry writing. It's a purely technical dimension, and I personally stay away from it as much as I can. I applaud those who try though, it can be a tool to write some excellent poetry.

I don't think Jim's suggestion did very much for the poem in question, when it comes to expressing the writer's view and emotions. And that was never the point. It was a technical suggestion, not an artistic one.

Was it too much "correction" for one post? Was it too much to do a rewrite? Maybe, maybe not. But we can't draw a line on what is "accepted" feedback, or people will be so afraid of crossing it that critisism ends up bland and pointless.

Or should every piece of constructive critisism come with a "please don't be offended" disclaimer?


-Lin

 

[Linbido]

I too don't think I missed any point. All I said remains as my valid opinion.

Oh all right then, Snookums. Almost all did.

Which isn't all that strange, since this started with an emotional knee-jerk post to begin with. They are tough to descipher sometimes.

What the heck is up with knees these days? Such jerks...

Now, let's all kiss and make out... or make up, whatever.

 

[jthserra]

We do not write it so that some critic that sits behind their computer screen all day long can come through and RE-WRITE it for us because they didn't get what we were feeling or intending or hell they decided that they needed to change what we were feeling or intending.

The poem in question was not "rewritten". On line one I suggested she drop one adjective (one word) from line one.

For line two I recommended she drop the "ing" ending on one word.

Line three I recommended rephrasing what she said. Then in an effort to make a point regarding strengthening the cut, I offered an alternative, another image to juxtapose against the first.

It was still her haiku to do with what she wanted, to listen to my recommendations and decide. I showed her an alternative and gave her the reasons why.

She considered the recommendation in the spirit in which it was offered and made her own decisions. That is the basic give and take between poets I have always been used to.


jim : )

 

[jthserra]

Re: 2 cents worth

Might it be worth your time to look at the individual behind the writing? The answer is yes.

I was the first poet here at lit to recognize and laud Echoes_s poetry. We have corresponded on poetry and other things since that time, corresponded more than I have with anyone else here at lit, or at several of the other workshops and sites I visit. She has emailed me poems and parts of poems to look at and offer suggestions.

I know her to be seriously interested in learning everything she can about poetry and its forms, and I was confident she would take my recommendations as I intended, a brief discussion in haiku, using her poem as an example.

Funny, in working with her poems, I have watched enviously as she took a recommendation or two, and incorporated them into her work to produce some poetry I wish I could write. It was like when I was much younger... I helped my younger brother in tennis. I'd teach him a trick or two, and then, while playing a game against him, he'd use those very tricks against me. He soon eclipsed me in tennis, going on to become a teaching pro.

I think the point here is that, in this instance, I did exactly what you said, I got to know this poet before I made the level of recommendations that I have.

With respect to haiku... a Japanese master has recently said that Western writers will never be able to write true haiku, because our egos are too large to fit into haiku. The point you made about expressing the poem her way may be an illustration of that point. The image should be presented for the reader to intrepret. This is different than most western poetry, where the poet intreprets the images.

jim : )

 

[Joseki Ko]

Re: Re: 2 cents worth

I was the first poet here at lit to recognize and laud Echoes_s poetry. We have corresponded on poetry and other things since that time, corresponded more than I have with anyone else here at lit, or at several of the other workshops and sites I visit. She has emailed me poems and parts of poems to look at and offer suggestions.

I know her to be seriously interested in learning everything she can about poetry and its forms, and I was confident she would take my recommendations as I intended, a brief discussion in haiku, using her poem as an example.

Funny, in working with her poems, I have watched enviously as she took a recommendation or two, and incorporated them into her work to produce some poetry I wish I could write. It was like when I was much younger... I helped my younger brother in tennis. I'd teach him a trick or two, and then, while playing a game against him, he'd use those very tricks against me. He soon eclipsed me in tennis, going on to become a teaching pro.

I think the point here is that, in this instance, I did exactly what you said, I got to know this poet before I made the level of recommendations that I have.

With respect to haiku... a Japanese master has recently said that Western writers will never be able to write true haiku, because our egos are too large to fit into haiku. The point you made about expressing the poem her way may be an illustration of that point. The image should be presented for the reader to intrepret. This is different than most western poetry, where the poet intreprets the images.

jim : )

Fair enough Jim, I still think in this case that maybe you were wrong, I think Budded is perfect as is, but if I was a true expert I wouldn't do this as a hobby. So I may be wrong I just don't think so.

However I do see your points. Especilly the one about ego. I still see budded as an expression of her state of mind. And by your definitions that's not a Haiku.

LOL fair enough?

 

[Joseki Ko]

Re: Re: 2 cents worth

Censorship? It's not about fitting into a little box.

The whole debacle is that it was intended to be a haiku poem. It was labelled, by echoes herself, to be one.

It's another, more specific and restricted form of poetry writing.




-Lin

Ok it's not about censorship it just has to fit in the box

 

[Joseki Ko]

I too don't think I missed any point. All I said remains as my valid opinion.

Like OT said, there's nothing more effective than to show what you mean when you're critiquing a poem. Offer alternatives. Make suggestions. If you think you know of a way to make the third verse of the 16th stanza stronger, great. If you can make justified, well-thought suggestions for each and every one of the verses of a poem, It doesn't get any better than that.

You're the author. You'll consider if any of those changes can make your poem better, you'll take what you want and toss the rest. It's your prorrogative.

Of course that with people reacting this way, who will ever want to help other poets to better themselves? This sort of childish behaviour really gets on my nerves.

Ok so if I read this right your saying suck it up because expressing an opinion about some one expressing an opinion is childish?

I've had much stonger feedback from Jim. LOL and it was much more deserved too. I just think he was wrong in this case. I think Budded is better as it is. He makes several good points in that last reply to me. Very well thought out and very concise. If this thread hadn't started I wouldn't have appreciatted his viewpoint so much. LOL I still think in this case he's wrong but I can at least understand his viewpoint. And like I said I may be wrong I just don't think so.

Feedback is much like a poem or story, you are putting your thoughts up in public forum. Like a poem or story these comments are subject to judgement from the rest of us. Having people argue or flame you back if you will is part of it as well.

I may not appreciatte Jim as much as I should, and if you've read any of my stuff you'll find that to be true. But unlike so many others I truly respect the fact that he signs his name to each and every comment he makes. He understands and takes responsability for his actions and words.

He more than any critic I've seen is put in the spotlight for his words. He understands that signing these comments means that people like me and Elizabetht will occasionally go off on him. And yet still he signs them. I can respect that.

I'd like to make some cutting remark here to sum up what I've said, but I'll settle for having you read the feedback I've just written and hold it up to your own values and expierience.

Do I have a point, or should you just ignore me?

 

[Angeline]

It seems to me that the bottom line here is that if you check the public comments box "Yes" or accept feedback, you open the possibility that people will say things you don't agree with, don't like. You have the option of not receiving feedback or comments. You also--as Jim pointed out--have the option of not agreeing and not accepting what you're told. Every editor worth his or her red pen will tell you that the writing--whatever it is--belongs to the writer. Not the editor, feedbacker, public commenter, whatever: the writer. So you don't like/agree with what you've heard? Fine. Don't do what the person says. And bear in mind that if someone took the time to comment, even if that comment is "Your poem stinks," you must have done *something* right because you engaged them long enough to read your poem and think about it.

 

[SeattleRain]

When someone offers me a re-write suggestion, I think of it not as changing that particular poem, but of changing the quality of my poems in the future.

On a story I had posted a while back, I got SO much incredibly helpful feedback, I know I made some fundamental changes to my writing, I KNEW there was something I just was not getting but I did not know WHAT it was. I would still not know.



Positive feedback is helpful because you know what to keep on doing.

but....


I think the whole thing boils down to is it constructive or destructive feedback?

and the whole thing with the haiku, I mean if it is not really a haiku call it free verse. seems simple.

I mean if you bake a cake that is the best damn cake ever, dark chocolate, rich and moist with pecan chips and whipped cream icing well then DAMN pass the plate but do not call it "Angel Food"
(unless it means you won't give me a piece unless I say "Please pass the angel food cake" with my fingers crossed behind my back.

you know what I mean?

not censorship at all

Not mean to be disrespectful, I am not talking SPECIFICS here, I dont even think I read the poem in question.

Lets face it, things do get very lovey around here, which is great, great for the community, the ego, the friendship etc etc etc

Please Jim, continue your feedback on my poems. You have been wonderfully helpful.

Seattle

 

[SeattleRain]

universal 50

and to totally change the subject

what is up YDD with the 50% all around for all poems, the ones you like, do not appreciate, etc etc etc I dont get that. Trying to understand.

I personally love your comments on the poems, even when I do not agree with them, they are thougtful and often humorous. But I just do not get the voting thing. I bet I would be like "Okay that makes sense" if I knew his/her reason behind it. I guess it is just none of my damn business. But I saw a 50% on some AWESOME poems that had great comments even from YDD so I don't understand....hmmm.

It kind of sucks that you have to vote to be able to leave a comment. I have not left comments because I want to give it a 4 but know the person might take offense, so I leave a 4 and run before I get whacked in the head for ruining a perfect score

lol

but I understand WHY they have it set up like that...

at any rate


what time is it anyway, anyone got a watch?

Seattle

 

[SeattleRain]

Poetry is about the writer, it is about what we feel when we feel it and how we feel it. We do not write it so that some critic that sits behind their computer screen all day long can come through and RE-WRITE it for us because they didn't get what we were feeling or intending or hell they decided that they needed to change what we were feeling or intending.

Jim is 99% writer 1% critic. Have you seen his list of work Amazing. One of the reasons I love his feedback is because I respect his work.

 

[Liar]

Re: universal 50

and to totally change the subject

what is up YDD with the 50% all around for all poems, the ones you like, do not appreciate, etc etc etc I dont get that. Trying to understand.

I think YDD simply choose not to rate, but only to comment. And then the default rating is at 50%. I too have felt tempted to leave the rating when offering public feedback sometimes. I don't vote on all poems, only on those that I feel I can give a fair rating. But I sometimes want to leave a comment on those poems anyway. I do the same when replying to a PC on my own poens, for instance.

The PC sould really have an option for "no rating". Ah well, can't complain really, it seems like a modular add-on component so I guess it's not all that easy for Manu (Lit's tech master) to just change. On the other hand, maybe noone have asked?

#L

 

[Linbido]

Re: Re: Re: 2 cents worth

Ok it's not about censorship it just has to fit in the box

Ah, again with my foot in my mouth, at least a little bit.

What I meant was that it is the author that choose the small box when attempting to write poetry in a specific form. The "box" is both a limitation and a structure that can help take poerty to new levels. Choosing and conforming to a structure is the poets free choice.

Cencorship is something else. It is a word that has the ugliest of connitations to me. It is saying that "you must not write like that" and even "you must not think like that". Applied from a patronizing above by someone else than the poet, that is.

I have had those reactions to my poems in the past, people who sense that they know better and tell me, patronizing and scornful, that "you can't write like that, that is not True Poetry". My reaction to that is an ever so friently "everything is poetry, so get specific, or piss off". When I tried to write a sonnet a way back, and messed up the meter, I was thankful that people pointed that out. My broken sonnet was still poetry, but a sonnet (which I was trying to write) it was not.

What makes poerty so special is that there are no rules, you can express yourself in anyway you want to, and poems that follow no known rules are niether more nor less worth than one that do. Even poems that break free from the labelled structures, of build their own. If it done intentionally, kudos to the writer. If it is done by mistake, I think it is better to let the poet know, so that he/she knowingly can correct the slip - or choose not to.

Jeez, that got long-winded, babbly and much more than a reply to your question. I can be like that sometmes.

-Lin

ps. Still waiting for Echoes' take on this. It was after all her poem that caused all the hullaballoo. I wouldn't know a real haiku if it jumped up and bit me in the nose. Maybe it is like Jim mentioned, that they can only be written in japanese. (There is a specific type of poetry, a kind of structural chains of kennings, that can only be properly done in old Norse, no other language on the planet, save for maybe Icelandic, has the needed gramattical structure.) But I know that it is a wonderful little sparkle of a poem, whatever it is.

 

[champagne1982]

Re: universal 50

and to totally change the subject

what is up YDD with the 50% all around for all poems, the ones you like, do not appreciate, etc etc etc I dont get that. Trying to understand.

I personally love your comments on the poems, even when I do not agree with them, they are thougtful and often humorous. But I just do not get the voting thing. I bet I would be like "Okay that makes sense" if I knew his/her reason behind it. I guess it is just none of my damn business. But I saw a 50% on some AWESOME poems that had great comments even from YDD so I don't understand....hmmm.[...]Seattle

If the opinion scale is from 0% to 100% then a rating of 50% means that you've got a middle of the road poem that may be somewhere between a 50% and a 75% rating. Perhaps, in the rater's opinion, the piece in question didn't deserve 75%, so how could they possibly give you that grade? Not everyone writes at a B+ average.

This works the same way in the main "Lit" rating system. The rating begins at not voting and continues upwards from 1 to 5. If everyone who wrote a good poem received a vote of 5, doesn't that devalue those truly deserving of the credit? Just curious. The scale doesn't begin at 50 it begins at 0.

 

[echoes_s]

Aaaaa, never never hit escape once you have typed a whole page, or type, save, and copy darn it!
I will write this over...sighs

 

[echoes_s]

I certainly apologize for the delay, not even knowing this was going on. I started reading and commenting on poems yesterday and then got pulled away because of company coming, baking needed to be done and Easter Dinner, then a bunny needed to ply and play his game of treasure hunt before the kids came home....

Well, what to say....???

Elizabetht, I do understand what you are saying here...example of one poem I wrote a long time ago, here are the two versions from another site, where one person didn’t like my original and rewrote it for herself.

Eiderdown

To lay my head down,
close everything away
and cover, vanish within this cocoon
cloaking me in warmth
and comfort,
envelopment.

To rest,
not think,
sink nor flounder.
Not struggle to rise,
to let tears slide, at peace
tensions go, release,
for a little while…

Yes, snuggled
within cotton,
head cushioned on gentleness
absorbing my heat
embracing me
Is this what it's like to be held?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Eiderdown2

To lay down,
and cover,
within this cocoon
cloaking in warmth,
envelopment.

To rest,
just melt and float,
eyes closed, let go
for a little while.

Yes, wrapped, snuggled
within cotton and held,
absorbing heat,
embracing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now quite honestly, the second is better, impersonal, unemotional and just lending to the title, not a person within the writing. But it took out some of what I also wanted to say to reach people.

Budded, I will not change, because I wrote it for a reason as Ko said, with a specific feeling when I was outside looking at my lilac tree, with the sun on my face, surprised at where I was in life and what I was feeling under the circumstances...thank you Ko for recognizing this

Budded is about my surprise about how "not broken up I was with a break up in my life". This is why I am keeping the first version the way it is

Jim! Good lord no, please do not stop!!! If I haven’t said it before enough, I so much value your help, your honesty, your input...everyone's here. There is always room for growth, always need for learning and tightening with poetry.
In concerns to haiku, you didn’t waste your breath on me, that I did read and learn from what you said, and will be applying it. It hasn’t stopped me, or deflated my zest to write haiku, only inspiring me to charge forward and from now on I will be reading your writings on this and striving for the proper forms with the best way that I know, and only request with sincerity your guidance and honesty, hoping to see this and truly appreciating the time and effort you do take. You have helped me so much with all of my poetry right from the beginning. I admire and am awed by your work, I respect your wisdom and look for your honesty. You have given me so much with this, that I cannot express my gratitude effectively to you.

Everyone here has and only honesty of opinion can help any poet.

I have every intention of continuing now to expand on Haiku in proper format and style now that I have broken, played and enjoyed this style of poetry. It has a complex simplicity, beauty and grace.

YDD, I love your comments, your honesty makes me smile although it seems to me there are a couple poems you do not understand (only my opinion) but it still makes me go back and look, and this is wonderful. Sometimes when you are frustrated it shows through with your comments, but that it is understanding because of the position you place yourself in, The Critic. You hold this very well and are a great tribute, continually challenging everyone to stop and think...even if only that. Do not stop either please, this is very refreshing and gives challenge to do better.

This is how I see constructive criticism...challenge to do better, taking what is said, brought to sight and working with it, to see if you can do better (not having to follow and do exactly what the person says, but finding your own voice and taking the example they gave you, expanding on it, most importantly keeping an open mind.)

If someone says the poem is a bit out of focus at the end (psst, thank you) I go back and read it, to find it true. I have a very hard time keeping focus, this is my constant challenge, but I know this and to see this said is a reality check and reminder. Now that it is pointed out, I can go back and rework the poem.

I know the word "clam" was out of place in another poem...and to hear it said was a huge YES to me, other words too, for one word can misplace a whole poem, the flow.

But when a poem is posted, and there are no comments, I think to myself, it must be really bad, and I have no clue where in most cases...feeling lost, and the poem lost, the meaning lost.

Ratings, I don't care about. They mean nothing compared to the comments, the advise given, I have told this to a few people. I cannot, nor can anyone else grow and learn from numbers, but advise, support when chips are fallen, a shove to push one out of a rut and more. This I see so much, and appreciate from here, from Lit.

When I see someone leave here, I feel sad and that a voice is lost, a personality, a heart, a song, a strength. When someone is hurting here, I feel this too...joyous, same, and more. This might only be poetry and words, but there are people behind these and we all contribute to each other and a community in one form or another here. Ok, maybe too sappy for some now...will stop here, but you get my point

The kind of trash talk that was being sent by pm's or emails was more personal attacks on the person, the poet, not the poems and I feel was more vindictive
IE *you suck, go away* *you are fu@#ed up, pi@s off* *whine away from here bit@h* etc...they have nothing to do with the poems and I dont know why they were even sent, did I piss someone off? If so, how? Or was it a poem I wrote that wasn't liked and hurt someone unintentionally? I dont know, nor will I find out because there was nothing more said. But to know I was not the only one getting these lends comfort only in perhaps it was someone trashing more than just one poet...I can't guess more on this. Delete works in the email and pm boxes and the surprised and confused feelings are worked through and dealt with. It is unfortunate that some have to be like this.

Wow, Lin, what were you saying about long winded? Doh…!
sorry everyone about that
*holds breath*

 

[echoes_s]

Going to add something else. I was on this other forum before I came here and spoke very honestly my opinion... only my opinion, trying to help people with writing from what I knew and also from how I wrote, not to change people or poems, feelings or emotions, but one day I did post on one poem...and it was flashed back so suddenly that I was trying to veto freedom of speech, that I was harsh, that I thought I was so perfect and knocking her down...and this was not my intent nor was I telling this person what to do, but making some suggestions. I gave positive feedback at the same time with the suggestion, but the end result was a withdrawl of me trying to help because I felt I had done more damage and the help and encouragement I was trying to give was not felt at all...so that I was doing this wrong.

Now I am very wary of making any suggestions, but do to some people who (I hope) know and accept they are only my humble suggestions and from my simple perspective, not to be taken as Thor's Hammer crushing inspiration

A suggestion is just that, and not meant to be taken personally in my view...

 

[SeattleRain]

Re: Re: universal 50

If the opinion scale is from 0% to 100% then a rating of 50% means that you've got a middle of the road poem that may be somewhere between a 50% and a 75% rating. Perhaps, in the rater's opinion, the piece in question didn't deserve 75%, so how could they possibly give you that grade? Not everyone writes at a B+ average.

This works the same way in the main "Lit" rating system. The rating begins at not voting and continues upwards from 1 to 5. If everyone who wrote a good poem received a vote of 5, doesn't that devalue those truly deserving of the credit? Just curious. The scale doesn't begin at 50 it begins at 0.

yeah I guess so. Maybe I am j ust still living in school where a 50% isnt average/middle of the road, it is a failure lol

waah

like repeat the grade

And you know, I was not even talking about MY poem, Champagne, did not mean it to be personal, I was actually referring to a poem I read that he'she gave glowing comments to, which he/she gave the same rating as one he/she had really seemed to think had a great deal of improving to do.

seemed kind of bizarre

but then again, all rating systems are

damn, anyone can rate anything whatever they want to and do not have to give an explanation.

blah blah blah
why do I even put my nose into such discussions, there is not right answer

SeattleRainand rain and I want some sun

 

[SeattleRain]

Re: Re: universal 50

If the opinion scale is from 0% to 100% then a rating of 50% means that you've got a middle of the road poem that may be somewhere between a 50% and a 75% rating. Perhaps, in the rater's opinion, the piece in question didn't deserve 75%, so how could they possibly give you that grade? Not everyone writes at a B+ average.

This works the same way in the main "Lit" rating system. The rating begins at not voting and continues upwards from 1 to 5. If everyone who wrote a good poem received a vote of 5, doesn't that devalue those truly deserving of the credit? Just curious. The scale doesn't begin at 50 it begins at 0.

agree with the every good poem not being a 5, inflated grading oh my

what about extra credit
clapping chalk erasers
bonus questions


but do not agree with the scale starting at not voting.

to me not voting is not having a strong opinion either way, to me not voting is in no way less than zero.

wasnt that a movie?

 

[champagne1982]

Re: Re: Re: universal 50

agree with the every good poem not being a 5, inflated grading oh my

what about extra credit
clapping chalk erasers
bonus questions


but do not agree with the scale starting at not voting.

to me not voting is not having a strong opinion either way, to me not voting is in no way less than zero.

wasnt that a movie?

I think that not voting when you have the option suggests that you don't feel the poem is good enough to receive the 10 votes needed to get it onto the rating list. Not voting declares ambivalence much as not voting in an election means that you are letting the vocal majority (or in this case the voting one) determine the results of the election regardless of who is best for the job.

A zero rating means that the piece being voted on is graded (in that reader's opinion) at a point between zero and twenty percent. That's only my take.

No one can ever not have an opinion.

By the way, when I use the pronoun 'you' in writing it should be read as generic unless I am addressing someone by name specifically... ie: the collective you.

 

[The_Fool]

Re: Re: Re: Re: universal 50

I think that not voting when you have the option suggests that you don't feel the poem is good enough to receive the 10 votes needed to get it onto the rating list....

*G* No wonder none of my poems get 10 votes...

No, not poking fun at you, Carrie...

Fool

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Ok so if I read this right your saying suck it up because expressing an opinion about some one expressing an opinion is childish?

Well, you're obviously reading it wrong, then. I'll say it again, though.

Elizabetht's original post was not an expression of opinion. It was a whiny, ill intended, openly declared diatribe against people who go to the trouble of including rewrite suggestions in the comments they make on other people's poems(!). The mere concept of someone actually ranting because there are people out there who care for poetry enough to dedicate their time to give their honest opinion and make well-thought suggestions is enough to almost drive you to tears. Or at the very least to make yourself a very large drink.

Catbabe mentioned a comment I left in one of her poems a week ago, where I said it lacked in tension. I know what I meant (and I hope she knows it too) but objectively, what the hell did I mean? What kind of comment was that? If I were a better poet, or if I had more time to dedicate to her poem and possibly identify what made me feel that way about the poem, if I could have found a way to change one or two stanzas - or the whole thing, for that matter - to illustrate my point, she would be able to see what I meant with the same clarity I did.

When someone offers you suggestions to change a poem, they are not making it theirs. It still is your poem. If you don't agree, if you agree but decide not to change, or if you simply don't care about anyone's suggestions is your problem. Like Angeline said too, no one expects the authors to edit their poems to incorporate all (or any) of the suggestions made in public comments. But lashing back on people that went out of their way for your sake is disgusting.

In case you didn't notice, your poem is still there, untouched. Comments don't change that. Your art is safe.

I've had much stonger feedback from Jim. LOL and it was much more deserved too. I just think he was wrong in this case. I think Budded is better as it is. He makes several good points in that last reply to me. Very well thought out and very concise. If this thread hadn't started I wouldn't have appreciatted his viewpoint so much. LOL I still think in this case he's wrong but I can at least understand his viewpoint. And like I said I may be wrong I just don't think so.

Echoes_s included the word haiku in the title of her submission. Between a comment saying "Ah, very nice... I like that you got away from the 17 syllables with a lovely image, but think you can trim a bit more to get to the very essence of your moment. Not exactly a haiku, though." and a comment explaining why it isn't a haiku and offering suggestions on how to make it one, I'll give you one guess as to which one I would choose ten times out of ten.

Feedback is much like a poem or story, you are putting your thoughts up in public forum. Like a poem or story these comments are subject to judgement from the rest of us. Having people argue or flame you back if you will is part of it as well.

Argue, yes. The name of this forum is Poetry Feedback & Discussion.

Flame, no. But yes, being childish is as much a part of life as anything else...

 

[Lauren Hynde]

The ratings on the comments have no consequence whatsoever in the voting average. They are two independent systems. Only the 'classic' vote count. A comment's rating is nothing more than a summary of the comment you're about to make.

So, I think the 'no rating' option for the public comments could be a good idea. I'm sure that is what happens with YDD. He/she doesn't want to give a numeric rate to the poem, wants the emphasis of the comment to remain solely on the words, so chooses to leave the default value of 50%. Doesn't matter one way or the other. No influence.