To the Critics....

[Guest]

Well, you're obviously reading it wrong, then. I'll say it again, though.

Elizabetht's original post was not an expression of opinion. It was a whiny, ill intended, openly declared diatribe against people who go to the trouble of including rewrite suggestions in the comments they make on other people's poems(!). The mere concept of someone actually ranting because there are people out there who care for poetry enough to dedicate their time to give their honest opinion and make well-thought suggestions is enough to almost drive you to tears. Or at the very least to make yourself a very large drink.

Flame, no. But yes, being childish is as much a part of life as anything else...

Interesting.

There are few times that I say this to people because actually getting to this point is bothersome.

You are wrong.

Please remove whatever rod that you have acquired and pay attention while I explain it as if everyone that reads Lit was 6 years old....

My original posting was done because I get irritated with people that set themselves up to be self proclaimed know it alls. I get irritated with people that say oh well this person posted all of this shyte today and its not really worth the read. I get irritated when someone takes that step beyond giving a critique of a poem or story and rewrites it... yes I leave feedback, pc, and all of the anon stuff intact so that anyone that feels like saying something about my writings has the ability to do so.

Yes, I did in fact some time ago when I was talked about in the new poems thread state quite clearly that I had some poetry up that stood as it was written, errors and all. Not ONE person bothered to ask me why I took such a harsh stand on THOSE particular poems so I am damn well not going to explain now.

I can critique a poem or a story without rewriting it for the author and handing it back to them. I believe that we are all authors and readers... but unless we are SPECIFICALLY asked to be editors, then step off and back off.

Your postings in this thread of been nothing but thinly veiled slander. Let me take off the veil for you dear.

 

[minsue]

Wow.

OK, everybody back to your corners and take a deep breath, please. It's painful to see things come to this here.

Peace. Please.

 

[echoes_s]

I did not ask my poem to be set up here as an example.

It makes me sad and upset to see people flaming and getting upset with something that was referred even remotely towards something I did.

Elizabetht, Ko,
I thank you very much that you felt to stand and defend something which I erred in calling a Haiku, that I thought it was and was wishing for direction and comment, which I received with open arms and heart myself, that perhaps I should have asked personally first or posted on the boards before putting it up.
Thank you also for appreciating what I had to say in the poem, but what Jim and YDD both said, and more, in honest form, it is not a Haiku, again, I admit error to listing it as one.

Everyone else, I am truly sorry this has become a flame fest.

the end...

Please someone lock this thread...moderator?

 

[jthserra]

Interesting.

I get irritated when someone takes that step beyond giving a critique of a poem or story and rewrites it...

The poem in question was not "rewritten". On line one I suggested she drop one adjective (one word).

For line two I recommended she drop the "ing" ending on one word.

Line three I recommended rephrasing what she said. Then in an effort to make a point regarding strengthening the cut, I offered an alternative, another image to juxtapose against the first.

It was still her haiku to do with what she wanted, to listen to my recommendations and decide. I showed her an alternative and gave her the reasons why.

She considered the recommendation in the spirit in which it was offered and made her own decisions.

My original posting was done because I get irritated with people that set themselves up to be self proclaimed know it alls. I get irritated with people that say oh well this person posted all of this shyte today and its not really worth the read.

I ask you. Have you ever seen seen me, in my contact with you or anyone here at lit, even intimate that a poem was shyte and was not worth a read? Have I in my contact with you ever taken the position of a know it all?

It is interesting... and ironic that the person who's haiku I critiqued has emailed me, thanking me for the recommendations. I as I told Joseki, I have worked with Echoes_s on a number of poems sometimes making recommendations on how to perhaps improve things, other times encouraging her to explore different poetic techniques and forms.

I think if you were complaining about a specific comment made to one of your poems, I think your complaints would be valid. But to complain so vehemently about a comment to someone else's poem, someone who clearly welcomed the recommendations, is misguided at best.

I go to great lengths to find the positive in all my comments, I also will mention the things I think detract from a poem. I will make recommendations on a few poems.

I am serious about poetry here as are most of the poets I interact with here and at other sites. The give and take of advice and recommendations is an open exchange, an avenue to improvement. If you find that open exchange disconcerting you might consider simply ignoring it. If I step on someone's toes in my public comments or in my reviews I think they have the ability to let me know about it.

I better get back to my Monday New poem review.

jim : )

 

[Guest]

Love it? Hate it? Have suggestions?
You can leave a public comment on this submission!

This is printed at the top of the PC page. Criticism is purely personal opinion. Take it or leave it. it's everyone's choice.





edited to add IMO jim has a wealth of knowledge and has never been anything but helpful and consructive in his comments.

 

[echoes_s]

The poem in question was not "rewritten". On line one I suggested she drop one adjective (one word).

For line two I recommended she drop the "ing" ending on one word.

Line three I recommended rephrasing what she said. Then in an effort to make a point regarding strengthening the cut, I offered an alternative, another image to juxtapose against the first.

It was still her haiku to do with what she wanted, to listen to my recommendations and decide. I showed her an alternative and gave her the reasons why.

She considered the recommendation in the spirit in which it was offered and made her own decisions.




I ask you. Have you ever seen seen me, in my contact with you or anyone here at lit, even intimate that a poem was shyte and was not worth a read? Have I in my contact with you ever taken the position of a know it all?

It is interesting... and ironic that the person who's haiku I critiqued has emailed me, thanking me for the recommendations. I as I told Joseki, I have worked with Echoes_s on a number of poems sometimes making recommendations on how to perhaps improve things, other times encouraging her to explore different poetic techniques and forms.

I think if you were complaining about a specific comment made to one of your poems, I think your complaints would be valid. But to complain so vehemently about a comment to someone else's poem, someone who clearly welcomed the recommendations, is misguided at best.

I go to great lengths to find the positive in all my comments, I also will mention the things I think detract from a poem. I will make recommendations on a few poems.

I am serious about poetry here as are most of the poets I interact with here and at other sites. The give and take of advice and recommendations is an open exchange, an avenue to improvement. If you find that open exchange disconcerting you might consider simply ignoring it. If I step on someone's toes in my public comments or in my reviews I think they have the ability to let me know about it.

I better get back to my Monday New poem review.

jim : )

And Jim, that I sincerely apologize to you, you have shown me nothing but friendship since I first started here, offering me help and guidance, inside Lit and out, that you do not deserve this flame or feeling of abuse, that this angers and hurts me also to see this happen that you would have to feel to justify any comment made to me, because you had your heart in the exact spot it should have been, and no other place where I would have wanted. As I said in my email. Please do not change anything.
Again Jim, and everyone else, I apologize.

 

[echoes_s]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Love it? Hate it? Have suggestions?
You can leave a public comment on this submission!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This is printed at the top of the PC page. Criticism is purely personal opinion. Take it or leave it. it's everyone's choice.



and what baffles, confuses and hurts me, is I did not have a complaint at all about what was said. That I gobble up any advise given to me so that I can learn, and what I do not agree with, I think about and possibly get something better or another idea from , yet people who do help me are getting hurt in the intern???

 

[echoes_s]

double post

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Echoes, I can't let you apologize. None of what is being discussed here in this thread is your fault in any way, and the only people being flamed are thick-skinned enough to don't even remember this in the morning.

All you did was write a wonderful poem, one of the best haiku in the site, and got some wonderful feedback for it. You shouldn't be upset.

Also, forget about poetry breaks and not doing your comments on Tuesdays. Don't do that to me. Not today.

 

[SeattleRain]

Damn Lauren! I did not know that! How Cool! Wow!

I wanna be like you when I grow up.

Thanks, that really cleared things up for me. I think YDD is cool if he/she is as you describe. This works!

Seattle

The ratings on the comments have no consequence whatsoever in the voting average. They are two independent systems. Only the 'classic' vote count. A comment's rating is nothing more than a summary of the comment you're about to make.

So, I think the 'no rating' option for the public comments could be a good idea. I'm sure that is what happens with YDD. He/she doesn't want to give a numeric rate to the poem, wants the emphasis of the comment to remain solely on the words, so chooses to leave the default value of 50%. Doesn't matter one way or the other. No influence.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Please someone lock this thread...moderator?

I'm going to let the thread die its own natural death.

The issues discussed are important, and I need to stress that, in my opinion, under no circumstances should Jim or anyone else hesitate to post comments in any way they feel. If that happens, this will have been indeed a very sad day for poetry in Lit. If anything came out of this thread was echoes_s' recognition that the comments were helpful.

I also need to ask echoes_s to continue to write and post as usual. None of this was your fault, and no one got hurt.

 

[echoes_s]

Echoes, I can't let you apologize. None of what is being discussed here in this thread is your fault in any way, and the only people being flamed are thick-skinned enough to don't even remember this in the morning.

All you did was write a wonderful poem, one of the best haiku in the site, and got some wonderful feedback for it. You shouldn't be upset.

Also, forget about poetry breaks and not doing your comments on Tuesdays. Don't do that to me. Not today.

I'm going to let the thread die its own natural death.

The issues discussed are important, and I need to stress that, in my opinion, under no circumstances should Jim or anyone else hesitate to post comments in any way they feel. If that happens, this will have been indeed a very sad day for poetry in Lit. If anything came out of this thread was echoes_s' recognition that the comments were helpful.

I also need to ask echoes_s to continue to write and post as usual. None of this was your fault, and no one got hurt.

Trying to think of something funny to say, but one cup of coffee isnt enough to wake me in the morning...
Reviews will be posted tonight after kids go to bed if I cant get to them before they come home from school
bleah, my sense of humor just won't wake up right now. It will...
Thanks Lauren. Hugs

 

[Joseki Ko]

Ok I'll admit Lauren's right

Echo_s it say's alot for you that several of us are fighting over something you wrote. As I've heard said on this thread, a poem that can cause this much controversy is a rare and fantastic thing.

It it such a good poem that you have people who care about it fighting over it.

LOL now that's a success!

And another thing Lauren is right about. All of us that are arguing are highly opinionated and thick skinned, I doubt Lauren or I will think anything of this next month.

We all (That includes me, Lauren, Elizabetht and Jim) truly believe we are taking a stand in the face of evil.

LOL we're just currently deciding who's more evil.

Have fun Echo_s and enjoy what you do. We all enjoy what you do so much we are fighting about who loves it more

 

[Joseki Ko]

Well, you're obviously reading it wrong, then. I'll say it again, though.

Elizabetht's original post was not an expression of opinion. It was a whiny, ill intended, openly declared diatribe against people who go to the trouble of including rewrite suggestions in the comments they make on other people's poems(!). The mere concept of someone actually ranting because there are people out there who care for poetry enough to dedicate their time to give their honest opinion and make well-thought suggestions is enough to almost drive you to tears. Or at the very least to make yourself a very large drink.

Catbabe mentioned a comment I left in one of her poems a week ago, where I said it lacked in tension. I know what I meant (and I hope she knows it too) but objectively, what the hell did I mean? What kind of comment was that? If I were a better poet, or if I had more time to dedicate to her poem and possibly identify what made me feel that way about the poem, if I could have found a way to change one or two stanzas - or the whole thing, for that matter - to illustrate my point, she would be able to see what I meant with the same clarity I did.

When someone offers you suggestions to change a poem, they are not making it theirs. It still is your poem. If you don't agree, if you agree but decide not to change, or if you simply don't care about anyone's suggestions is your problem. Like Angeline said too, no one expects the authors to edit their poems to incorporate all (or any) of the suggestions made in public comments. But lashing back on people that went out of their way for your sake is disgusting.

In case you didn't notice, your poem is still there, untouched. Comments don't change that. Your art is safe.



Echoes_s included the word haiku in the title of her submission. Between a comment saying "Ah, very nice... I like that you got away from the 17 syllables with a lovely image, but think you can trim a bit more to get to the very essence of your moment. Not exactly a haiku, though." and a comment explaining why it isn't a haiku and offering suggestions on how to make it one, I'll give you one guess as to which one I would choose ten times out of ten.


Argue, yes. The name of this forum is Poetry Feedback & Discussion.

Flame, no. But yes, being childish is as much a part of life as anything else...

I believe I questioned; do I have apoint or should you ignore me. I'm guessing by your post I had a point.

As for Elizabetht's post, she just fight's nastier than I do. She felt no less conviction. But this isn't about her any more.

It's about your drinking problem:-]

You contend that there should be no reprecussions for honest well thought out suggestions on submitted work. Ok let's talk about honest and well thought out. The entire process started with the ferverant belief that the origional comment was not well thought out merely a convient example on the quest for the ultimate western Haiku.

I don't believe that the comment was well thought out, because it was dedicated to Haiku in general not the poem itself. I don't think it recognized what the poem was about.

Now that gets us back to the signature. If the origional comment had been signed Anonymous nobody would have cared. It was however signed by a prominant member of the community. By a man who stands by his words. That changes the dynamics of the situation.

Did Jim suffer a personal attack. Yes he actually suffered two, were they worse than some comments we get from Anonymous no they were actually much nicer than some things I've gotten. They were however was also signed. Both people who felt strongly about the origional reply were also willing to stand up and face criticism for what they said. Hence this thread.

Lauren, if that makes you want a large drink send me your address and I'll send you some nice scotch.


Quote

I'll give you one guess as to which one I would choose ten times out of ten.


That's you Lauren, that may not include everyones viewpoint. I personally am not a poet nor will I ever be. Hell if you've read what I write I'm barely a writer. I also am an ex-bouncer, biker and all around hard case. (That was the macho disclaimer) I found that I responded to the poem. It touched a part of me I thought was locked away forever. I thought I'd seen too much of the world to ever appreciatte something like that. I was REALLY wrong. So I took...and still do come to think of it, take it very personaly that changes were suggested to make it more HAIKU.

You mentioned that you wished you could offer a better suggestion on a different poem, to improve the clarity of what you saw. I saw this poem with complete clarity, from my point of view

Quote

But lashing back on people that went out of their way for your sake is disgusting.


Everybody has an agenda Lauren even Saints. To say that a comment is for someone elses sake is incorrect. As you stated yourself a comment is made because you see something that you think the author did not.


Quote

In case you didn't notice, your poem is still there, untouched. Comments don't change that. Your art is safe.

That was a cheap shot.

Whew talk about rambling. Ok tag your it.

 

[jthserra]

So I took...and still do come to think of it, take it very personaly that changes were suggested to make it more HAIKU.

You took offense to my comments about another poet's poem?

No offense was intended to you or anyone.

She posted a haiku, a pretty good haiku, one that is better than many I see. I offered some ideas on how she could trim her poem to the essence of the image and how to make it more in the moment. In that vein, I offered a couple of ideas on how she could continue on line three.

Then to make a point regarding the cut, I offered an alternative to the last line. I mentioned it made her message much more subtle and let her decide.

I closed by telling her: "Either way, you have a very good haiku, that shows an appreciation and understanding of the art. I applaud your haiku and your morning dew... : ) "

The morning dew I mention there was a personal comment to my friend regarding her fresh new change.

Again I meant no offense to you or anyone.


jim : )

 

[jthserra]

By odd coincidence

over the past few days... my most recent articles regarding haiku:
Cold Moon, A Review of Gabriel Rosenstock's Erotic Haiku and Erotic Haiku, An essay on writing and appreciating erotic haiku got excellent sendoffs with each getting a 1. My essay I can understand, but folks, please. lets give Gabriel Rosenstock a better break than that.


Joseki, Gabriel Rosenstock has some excellent erotic haiku and senryu that I think you might enjoy. I cite a few examples of his work in my review. Skip over my preaching, but see his work... It's not porn, but he does some interesting things.


jim : )

 

[Angeline]

Y'all need to calm down--well those of you who are feeling less than calm. Lauren pulls no punches and she never has--I guess you didn't either Elizabeth. And yes Lauren is my friend so take this however you want, but I've never known her to slander anyone, only speak her opinion--albeit strongly--as did you. I suppose that evens it out.

Frankly, there are poetry boards where you could post the equivalent of "Roses are red" and be told you're the next Shakespeare, but who needs that? What does anyone get from it besides a gratuitous ego boost? That's my opinion anyway. Anyone who wants to know where those places are, pm me and I'll be happy to send you the urls--they're not right for me though.

I'm glad this is a forum where I can get objective but critical feedback--it's what keeps me here. Anyone who wants nothing more than "great job" should just say so. I would rather hear your full opinion though, even if it is that my poem failed for you in whatever way.


Angeline

 

[SeattleRain]

One good thing came from all this scuffle
(besides stirring things up to get some oxygen to the murky depths in a little spring overturn)

....so many of us were inspired to tell jthserra how much we honestly appreciate him.

We are fortunate to have someone so dedicated to us and poetry, and knowledgable (not a know it all by any stretch of the imagination) spend time (and it takes a lot of time) to make comments on our work.

 

[ag2507]

Thank you Linbido.
That was entirely my point. Critic if you want but rewriting it for me as your critique makes it your poem not mine.

As for those that completely missed what I was saying.
Yes, I write for me. I post for me. I do any and all writing for me and for some that I just think would enjoy it. Somedays what I write is wonderful to others and some days it only makes sense to me. However, I leave the PCs on and the Feedback on because I want to know if something struck someone as particularly interesting.

And maybe... just maybe.. .that newbie writer that puts something up that has it get trashed or rewritten for them... needed our support... not our slice and dice...

Elizabeth

I teach poetry and run groups where individuals regularly and as a matter of course rewrite each other's poetry. It is not about making it not your poem but about helping you to overcome specific problems and offering other ways to look at an idea. You can chose to accept, reject or use it as inspiration to apply a completely different fix. As a matter of course, I never comment on a poem unless invited: that's just good manners - but it is equally good manners not to publish a poem unless you have considered the reader.

The second you have published a poem it is public property and open for comment: I come across many who have expressed your point of view - but they publish because they want someone to like their poems. Or rather, they want to bypass the most imprtaant phase in personal development, the feedback loop. No artist develops without it: and as we are social animals, we need it as port of out psyche. The trick is to develop a little humility, figure out what habit(s) you have that readers don't like, and do better next time.

Like you I hate to change a finished poem, but I will apply lessons learned to the next one.

Keep writing

a

 

[Joseki Ko]

You took offense to my comments about another poet's poem?

No offense was intended to you or anyone.


jim : )

Hey Jim, Sorry I didn't mean to catch you up in this again. Liking poetry is not something I'm real good at. So when I found a poem that I felt called to me...ok I don't really know how to explain it.

LOL ok work with me a little on this. You know what good petry can do.

It wouldn't have called to me the way it did if it was trimmed.

 

[jthserra]

Joseki...

Hey Jim, Sorry I didn't mean to catch you up in this again. Liking poetry is not something I'm real good at. So when I found a poem that I felt called to me...ok I don't really know how to explain it.

I have been meaning to tell you... you inspired me to write a poem a while back. You had commented on my Chance of You, asking me what it was about... Well I went to answer, but ran into a problem. That problem led to a poem:


While Explaining One of My Poems to a Reader, I Suddenly Realize I’ve Forgotten What It’s About. Honestly, inspired by Joseki Ko.

jim : )

 

[aquaglide1]

i believe that we own the writing during creation...but once we release it into the wild it's no longer ours...each reader takes ownership, applies their standards and experiences to it and the story/poem may be a completely different one to each person...it may have nothing to do with what i thought i was saying

however i do love PC and feedback even if you think i suck...at least you're paying attention

 

[My Erotic Tail]

Hey E~

Poets are passionate People~

A bit more verbal than "Authors"

Sorry I didn;t see this thread earlier and
get in on the best part of the debate...

You have to have compassion for the
ignorant sweetie, They know not what they do

When someone points out your faults is one
thing but to guide you through a proper
procedure is another! They are drilled in so
called workshops or hang outs for the lonely.
They're no longer looking at it as "Literary Art."
then their looking for the structure instead
of the artists intent and purpose their trying
to reveal their souls thoughts.

The comments I've seen are mostly pointing
out grammer or meters (what ever that is)
And the proper guidelines for the way they
have been taught or read that a poem is
suppose to be by some other person.
Instead of reading what some one is trying
to say.

The best example I know is Mark Twain or
Abe Lincoln who were also told they're
grammer and Literature would never do
in the eyes of the "Knowledgeable"
They said Samuel Clemon's stories would
never be nothing more than childrens books.
Well honey they're not being laughed at now.
Good thing ole Abe didn't let pompus structure
and grammer finatics bother him. (EXAMPLE)
There is something to be said about the
good ole country boy/girl who sits on the farm
and writes from the heart because they love it.
Some of the greatest writings known were from
people who just did it for enjoyment. Will Rodgers
and more.

I was at a college a couple weeks back at a
law enforcement course and the teacher had
miss-spelled a word on the chalk board and
someone sitting there said ("Imprisonment"..lol)
"Huh huh that's mispelled" the guy turned
and said "Can you make out what I meant?"
The man sitting in class said .."Yes".....
"Well then whats the problem"...smiles...

The other thing I noticed (jim excluded here) If your
female your gonna get praised a bit better.
But if ya got a tail on lit...I mean third leg...the
critics will try to make you look worse so they
shine in the light for their groupies.

Hence the word...LITERARY ART!!!
Not college exam~

Now tristesse and wicked and a few females
that comment quite a bit have been kind,
those are honorable remarks done in a kind way.
They're not thinking with two brains. hehehe

It shows...anyway my two cents...only words..
nothing more...this tiger growled a bit but hey
I'm with you, they try to hard to build themselves
up and knock others down...smiles...only Soar
like an Eagle and look down at the turkeys...lol

Yeah I know opinions are like assholes and Im
showing mine, I am normally passive but my paw
is still a bit sore from getting stepped on from
these groupies defending their GAWD which is
another subject...they should take up the teachings
of Budda and seek enlightenment, instead of
crusades and jihads...(is this a poetic battle) smiles

I spend more time in the "AUTHORS" hang out
which seems to be a bit more understanding
of literature, But I love poetry and obviously
my words are felt in several books, they didn't
harp on my structure or meter or grammer...
which you know from editing my stuff I'm
pure country and accented greatly..ye haw
But my tales...are very well liked and wanted.

Any way the key to tranquility is exceptance!!!
Therefore I except them for what they are...

mere words in my comment section....
Crows squack...canaries sing...hehehe
You know me I've always taken the way
of the Tiger, solitude and stance. Some birds
like to flock together...I don't get in here as
much as others and I see why. Squacking
gives me a headache...
I'd rather curl up and right a good story
It's a passion... an Art..in a forum!!!
you want a class go back to school...hehehe

One final note...in my poem YDD ia a Ying Yang...
"We all see things differently"...except it...
Also- "Everything has an opposite...boy I
see that clearly here...

Damn I must be tired I ain't spewed
like this in awhile...
Hope I didn't step on to many toes...
while walking around lit today...
Guess the Tiger roared today..hehehe
Thanks for the vent..smiles..
night night

Thanks E~

 

[Angeline]

Yeah I know opinions are like assholes and Im
showing mine, I am normally passive but my paw
is still a bit sore from getting stepped on from
these groupies defending their GAWD which is
another subject...they should take up the teachings
of Budda and seek enlightenment, instead of
crusades and jihads...(is this a poetic battle) smiles

Well, that makes two of us--my female paw is getting a bit sore from hearing things like "groupies defending their GAWD," a statement I find both sexist and obnoxious. Think Buddha would have any thoughts on letting go of misplaced anger?

 

[air2o]

sorry
go back to the way is should be
the old way
the way it is

at 4:50 in my day
nothing
simple nothing
so AM it is
blaming the PM for being here

scratch voiced
putting distance in my air
against the log and burnable belongings

hugging miles and ways traveled
conversations in a compartment
driver, passenger, passenger
some fun, some sexual, end of professional respect
at end of roll

dropped off at the end
to stand stark blank blinkless
knocking on a door when opened
reveals reason for leaving