Tolkien Fans: Comments and Questions

[Voboy]

There are many Tolkien fans and nerds in this forum, and many previous threads that have discussed his works, but I thought I'd start a thread anyway to give people an opportunity to ask questions or offer opinions on his work.

I read LOTR in 1976, 50 years ago. Been a fan and nerd ever since.

Here's a question I have: How did Gandalf and Elrond know how to destroy the One Ring? They somehow knew you could only destroy it by casting it into the fires of Mount Doom, but how did they know that? As far as we know, Sauron forged the ring by himself, and it doesn't make sense that he would put in writing how to destroy it. I can't imagine that Gandalf or Elrond found a scroll in the Minas Tirith archives somewhere where Sauron or some other witness wrote, "Just in case anybody wants to destroy the ring, here's how you do it."

My presumption was that Celebrimbor might have left behind some lore (or a helpful binder of notes).

I have always assumed that "can only be destroyed by the fire that created it" is a cool, logical way in which all the rings of power might have been designed. At which point, Celebrimbor and all the rest of the Gwaith-i-Mirdain would have been well aware of that property, meaning it would have been fairly common knowledge in Eregion. Hence, it would have been understood by many at Imladris.

It would make sense to me that, say, Narya, Vilya, and Nenya (to say nothing of the other 16 Great Rings) might only be destructible within Celebrimbor's own forge. If he knew that, then he would also know the One Ring would only be destructible in Sauron's forge.

 

[VerbalAbuse]

I read LOTR in 1976

and you haven't re-read it since?

 

[Voboy]

Here's another question: When the fellowship sets off, why don't they take the road through the Misty Mountains that the Dwarves and Bilbo took in The Hobbit, and then proceed down the Anduin through Lorien, and thereby avoid the obvious problem of Saruman?

They are trying to avoid the Vales of Anduin (which would bring them close to Dol Guldur) and the Gap of Rohan (which would bring them close to Nan Curunir). The plan was to take the Redhorn Pass down to the Dimrill Stair and thence to Lorien, at which point Gandalf intended to consult with Galadriel.

Sauron learned his ring lore from Fëanor (can’t figure out the diacritics). Perhaps the Maia figured some of it out. More practically, if a ‘forge’ is hot enough to form a metal object, it is hot enough to melt it.

I don't believe that is the case. He learned his smithcraft from Aule himself, I think. I'd be happy to be corrected if that's not the case.

IIRC the rings were forged in the fires of Mount Doom, so it is also hot enough to melt them.

No, all the rest of them were forged in Eregion by the elves.

 

[TheLobster]

No, all the rest of them were forged in Eregion by the elves.

The Elven ones were, i.e., the Three. The Seven, the Nine, and of course the One were all forged by Sauron.

 

[onehitwanda]

The Elven ones were, i.e., the Three. The Seven, the Nine, and of course the One were all forged by Sauron.

But many lesser, unnamed rings were also forged by the elves. The Three were Celebrimbor's final rings, not the only ines he and other Noldor smiths made. But the rest were likely lost or consumed by Dragons.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Here's another question: When the fellowship sets off, why don't they take the road through the Misty Mountains that the Dwarves and Bilbo took in The Hobbit,

But remember what happened to the Dwarves and Bilbo in the Misty Mountains!

Even with the One Ring lost and Sauron's attention elsewhere, even for thirteen tough dwarves plus Gandalf (plus Bilbo), that was a dangerous road. By the time of LotR Sauron's power has grown considerably, the Misty Mountains have grown more dangerous, and the Fellowship is a much higher priority for him than the dwarves were in The Hobbit.

Here's a question I have: How did Gandalf and Elrond know how to destroy the One Ring? They somehow knew you could only destroy it by casting it into the fires of Mount Doom, but how did they know that? As far as we know, Sauron forged the ring by himself, and it doesn't make sense that he would put in writing how to destroy it. I can't imagine that Gandalf or Elrond found a scroll in the Minas Tirith archives somewhere where Sauron or some other witness wrote, "Just in case anybody wants to destroy the ring, here's how you do it."

Tolkien never lays out the rules of magic (probably for the best) but something that shows up in a lot of folklore is the Law of Contagion: things that have been connected remain connected. This shows up in the idea that somebody who gets hold of your hair/nail clippings can use them against you, in the belief that saints' relics and pieces of the True Cross have special power, and many other places.

Orodruin is not only the forge where the One Ring was made, it's right next door to Barad-dûr, Sauron's long-term home. Folklore/myth often associates power with places (see e.g. vampires needing to sleep in their home soil; in Tolkien, Galadriel's ties to Lorien and Bombadil's to the Old Forest.)

The idea that "what made it can unmake it" is pretty intuitive, and a repeated motif in LotR is the idea of evil turning against itself. Smaug's vanity leads him to reveal his weak spot; Sauron corrupts Saruman but is then betrayed by him, and Saruman in turn is betrayed by his own minion Gríma; Gollum isn't slain by Frodo or Sam, but rather topples into the volcano at his moment of "triumph".

Put those things together, and it makes a lot of sense that Sauron's power should be unmade by destroying his own creation in the forge where he made it.

Meanwhile, nobody asked but it seems inevitable that I post this at some stage in this thread:

 

[Voboy]

The Elven ones were, i.e., the Three. The Seven, the Nine, and of course the One were all forged by Sauron.

Incorrect.

The elves forged them all (except the One, clearly). The Seven and the Nine, however, were forged with Sauron's more or less direct guidance; the Three did not involve him at all.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The Elven ones were, i.e., the Three. The Seven, the Nine, and of course the One were all forged by Sauron.

No, @Voboy is correct here. The only ring that Sauron forged himself was the One. The other nineteen (plus possibly others) were all made by the Noldor (Elves). However, Sauron guided and corrupted the creation of most of those rings; the Three (Narya, Nenya and Vilya) were the only three that weren't corrupted, and the only three that the Elves were able to keep.

cf. The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings Of Power and the Third Age":

In those days the [Noldor] smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.

Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last.

...

But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings. But he ... was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel. But the Elves fled from him; and three of their rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them.

Now these were the Three that had last been made...of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them...but Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them...Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.

...Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-Earth...Seven rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine...And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making...

 

[Bramblethorn]

IIRC the rings were forged in the fires of Mount Doom, so it is also hot enough to melt them.

The One Ring was. The rest were made in Eregion.

 

[YmaOHyd]

Also also the Eagles aren't, like, birds. They're more akin to elves. They're trouble-magnets. The Ring making it to the Fire because it's carried by someone who's utterly beneath Sauron's notice or contempt is, like, the point. They say that specifically at the Council of Elrond and several other times besides.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I don't believe that is the case. He learned his smithcraft from Aule himself, I think. I'd be happy to be corrected if that's not the case.

"Among those of [Melkor/Morgoth's] servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lord of that people." - Silmarillion, Valaquenta.

Fëanor learns his metalwork via his father-in-law Mahtan, "among those of the Noldor most dear to Aulë". [Aulë being the Valar of smithing and crafting.]

I'm not sure it's ever explicitly stated where Sauron learned to make Rings of Power, but as one of Aulë's most powerful servants it seems more likely that he got his knowledge directly from his direct master than indirectly via Aulë-Mahtan-Feanor.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Also also the Eagles aren't, like, birds. They're more akin to elves. They're trouble-magnets. The Ring making it to the Fire because it's carried by someone who's utterly beneath Sauron's notice or contempt is, like, the point. They say that specifically at the Council of Elrond and several other times besides.

One of the difficulties with "why is it so?" questions in Tolkien's works is that it's often hard to distinguish between Doylean and Watsonian causes - does this happen because the author felt it would make the story more satisfying to have the great evil defeated by small humble people, or does it happen because that's how magic and fate work in his world? Or do magic and fate work that way in Middle-Earth because that's what the author finds aesthetic?

 

[crookedletter]

I love this thread. I wish I had half the memory capacity you all do. I’ve read these books a dozen times — Silmarillion just once, decades ago — and I can’t remember a fraction of this stuff.

I love the movie adaptations, but they have the unfortunate effect of essentially overwriting my memory. The visual stuff just takes hold better, I guess. So as much as I grew up with the books and regularly reread them, the first thing that comes to mind when considering these questions is always what happens in the movies. Which is a big bummer.

 

[onehitwanda]

I just have to state, once again, that Faramir was never tempted by the Ring, and Peter Jackson can go choke on a bushel of horse cocks for daring to imply that he was.

 

[Writer61]

I love this thread. I wish I had half the memory capacity you all do. I’ve read these books a dozen times — Silmarillion just once, decades ago — and I can’t remember a fraction of this stuff.

Completely agree.

I have a couple of long flights coming up, so I will download them.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

I just have to state, once again, that Faramir was never tempted by the Ring, and Peter Jackson can go choke on a bushel of horse cocks for daring to imply that he was.

In other news, the movie story isn't the book story and was never meant to be.

I hated the movies, but not because they varied from the book plot.

 

[SimonDoom]

I just have to state, once again, that Faramir was never tempted by the Ring, and Peter Jackson can go choke on a bushel of horse cocks for daring to imply that he was.

I have a bit of a different take. The one person that was never corrupted by the ring was Sam. He bore it, briefly, and the ring tried to seduce him, and it didn't succeed. I see him as the true hero of the story. So I don't mind that the movie treated Faramir's encounter a little differently. In the movie, he acquitted himself well. He has nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Recently an early draft of The Hobbit has been unearthed, I excerpt text from it below:

—

I circled the butte, in the growing gloom. It was tree-covered, but demons have hawk-like vision. Nevertheless, at first I could see neither sign of a cave, nor anything else, through the thick vegetation. Just as I was about to give up for the day, I picked out a dim flickering and a little smoke. It was coming from the uppermost stand of trees. Lacking any other plan, I decided to go investigate.

I had prudently landed some way from what I now realized was a fire. As I made my way stealthily through the dark wood towards the light, I became aware of voices. Loud voices, speaking a language I didn't understand, but punctuated with more Anglo-Saxon expletives than I typically used in a day, which was fucking saying something. I could vaguely make out shadowy shapes; three large, shadowy shapes; and -- as I moved ever nearer -- three large, shadowy, scaly shapes. 'Trolls, very dangerous. If only there was someone else with me,' I thought to myself.

I'd gone on a date with a troll once. Not a guy of many words, more action-oriented, which I didn't generally mind in a man. But his extensible appendage had been on the large side, even for me. You can have too much of a good thing, it seems. Banishing these thoughts, I crept further forward, with no real plan beyond checking the group out.

Before I reached the small clearing the trolls were occupying, my heightened hearing detected another noise. Someone, or something, quietly shifting position, leading to tiny rustling sounds. Zeroing in on the location, I almost said the name 'Hrafn' out loud -- a memory restored -- but then I realized it was not my erstwhile companion, but an older, and slightly larger man. His cloak and hat suggested he was another wizard, a determination supported by his long hair and beard, things that had led to my initial misidentification. He was crouched several feet to my left, in the last row of trees before the glade. Curiouser and curiouser.

It was now almost pitch black, nights seemed to fall very quickly round here. I could just see the wizard's face, illuminated by the dancing flames. He had his hand to his mouth and, as I watched, he spoke in a voice not dissimilar to the three figures gathered around the bonfire. I had no clue what he was saying or what was happening, but the man's words seemed to discombobulate the trio, who fell into a raucous argument. As they did, I glanced back at the wizard to see a faint smile play across his whiskers.

A movement caught my eye, and I saw a large sack in the clearing, tied up tight with a hefty rope. The sack seemed to be wriggling, and one of the trolls got up and gave it a rough kick. At first this only made the undulations worse, but a second blow quietened them. What the fuck was going on? Bizarrely, no sooner had the light almost totally failed, than once more a slight paleness was evident in the sky. Was time itself messed up in Arcadia?

Then the wizard spoke again, his voice sounding like stone. Whatever he said immediately led to troll fisticuffs, and I thought I could make out the sound of a barely suppressed chuckle. As the commotion died down, I sensed a light behind me. Turning, I saw the first rays of dawn on the horizon. My attention was brought back to the tableau in front of me by the mage once more speaking. This time, the trolls picked up flaming brands and began to attack each other with them.

In the midst of their battle, the wizard stood and stepped forward out of the trees, staff aloft, declaiming something in what I assumed was his own voice. As he spoke, sunlight burst through the trees and illuminated the giant figures. For a few seconds, it seemed that they had been turned to stone, frozen in the act of beating each other. Then they exchanged glances, gave a collective shrug, and moved surprisingly quickly towards the man. Their intentions didn't seem wholly friendly.

The wizard held his rod protectively in front of his face, now seeming to be the one rooted to the spot, awaiting inevitable dismemberment, possibly followed by roasting, or vice versa.

Quickly, I too stood and yelled, "Gøra grýttr!"

The trolls became motionless. Looking in my direction with some astonishment, the wizard then walked forward and tapped the nearest figure with his staff. A dull, lithic note boomed, and there was no reaction from the petrified monster.

From the sack came a clamor of voices, which the mage entirely ignored, now walking very cautiously towards me. At a discreet distance, he stopped, and bowed low, sweeping his tall, pointed hat in an arc in front of him as he did.

Rather nervously to my ears, he said, "Thank you, my mistress. Your servant is in your debt. But may I know your name? Never have I heard tell of so powerful a witch."

Feeling a little flattered -- vanity is one of my biggest flaws -- I answered, "I am Emmoreth, daughter of Naamah, but you can call me Emma." Emma! That was the name, the one I had almost forgotten.

The man bowed again, even lower. "Ah! The daughter of Naamah, this explains much. You have clearly inherited your parents' powers. Thank you again for sparing me."

Parents? Plural? What the actual fuck? But, suddenly, my mind felt muzzy. I couldn't quite recall what we had been talking about.

Confused, I inquired, "And you are...?"

The wizard seemed flustered, as if he had committed a faux pas. "My apologies for my indiscretion, mistress. My name is Virgadryas. I am at your service."

Screams of annoyance were now emanating from the sack. I looked at it pointedly. "Don't you need to get that?"

"All in good time, mistress. Is there any way in which I can aid you?"

It seemed a long shot, but I asked anyway. "Aigókerōs, I am seeking Aigókerōs. Do you know where he may be found?"

Virgadryas smiled. "Certainly, my mistress. If you turn and look to the horizon, you will see a high peak. Aigókerōs's abode is there, when he is not traveling. I understand he travels a lot."

The tumult from the sack was now deafening. "I really think you should see to that."

The mage looked bashful. "Ah! Yes. Well, truth be told, it would be better for my... reputation... if you weren't here when I let my friends out. You see, they have rather a high opinion of me. And I don't want to disabuse them of it."

I had my directions. Whatever game Virgadryas was playing was really none of my business, so I returned his bow, thanked him for the information, and soared -- much more certainly -- into the morning sky. Maybe I was, at last, getting somewhere.

 

[SimonDoom]

The Ring making it to the Fire because it's carried by someone who's utterly beneath Sauron's notice or contempt is, like, the point. They say that specifically at the Council of Elrond and several other times besides.

That's my interpretation of the whole thing.

Fly into Mordor with a bunch of eagles, and the Nazgul see 'em miles off and it's a turkey feast. As Boromir said in the movie, "Not with 10,000 men could you do this." They'd all get butchered. The only way to do it was with two inconspicuous hobbits that nobody noticed. Whether or not you think that makes sense, I think that's what the author meant.

 

[Britva415]

how did they know that?

I never thought about it, but I figure magic is consistent enough that a wizard could figure it out. Like, maybe it took a Sauron to figure out how to make it, but then another wizard and the elves could figure out how to unmake it.

The elves were so evolved with making all the other rings of power, so, in the ensuing thousands of years, they and Gandalf could have used what they knew to reverse engineer the one ring, or at least how to destroy it.

I guess my only question would be about how they knew it was forged in the fires of Mount Doom. That seems to be the key to knowing it would take the fires of Mount Doom to unmake it.

 

[Britva415]

I agree with you that the character of Gandalf is a bit of a cheat. He magically shows up to do whatever he has to in order to propel things to the next stage of success. But he's so well-drawn and likable that Tolkien gets away with it.

I think it fits, though, with Tolkien's faith. A Catholic postulating a Christ like figure. Of course he's going to have transcendent powers - but they're also fallible and vulnerable, because the opposing forces are so debased.

 

[Britva415]

The YouTube channel InDeepGeek has a ton of great videos exploring questions like these. What makes them great is that the creator (idk his name) answers them with evidence from Tolkein's letters, notes and other works, not with speculation and wild-ass guesses. To the extent that there is evidence, he finds it and shares it. To the extent that evidence is absent, he's transparent about that too.

 

[SimonDoom]

and you haven't re-read it since?

Many times.

 

[SimonDoom]

Be honest, Tolkien fans.

Don't you wonder about Aragorn and Eowyn getting it on at some point?

Think about it from Aragorn's POV. You're the most eligible bachelor in Middle-Earth. Arwen is hundreds of miles away, and you've been hanging out in the wilderness with dudes on a desperate quest for a long time, with no relief.

Suddenly, you are faced with a hot horse-warrior princess who is practically throwing herself at you.

You've got to be thinking, "I'll invite her into my tent. I'll have Legolas stand watch at the tent door. Elves are discreet. Nobody will know."

I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought about this.

 

[Writer61]

Don't you wonder about Aragorn and Eowyn getting it on at some point?

It has crossed my mind, and I expect his, too, but I have always seen Aragorn as the master of self-denial.