Tolkien Fans: Comments and Questions

[nice90sguy]

That is a good question, and I have no answer to it other than "reasons"

If I may, I'll toss a question out there. How the hell did Gandalf not know what the ring was when Bilbo first took it from Gollum? Then even after he sees the writing on it in Fellowship of the Ring he still has to run to look it up in all the old books. Maybe this is in the book, but I read them a little after you, maybe 79/80

One thing that I've always been annoyed with is Gandalf basically dying after the fight with the Balrog, then being resurrected 'just because' its one of those cheap "well the good guys have to win so let's make something up' devices I've never liked, almost as bad as in Clash of the Titans when Perseus collapses and Zeus cheats by picking up the clay statue and setting it right when no one is looking.

These things actually started me off on a "Good has to cheat to win" crusade I still revisit from time to time.

I remember reading an interview with JRR Tokein about that, and I think he said he resurrected Gandalf because his son, who he was writing for, wanted him back.


Despite what Tokein says about how he did a huge amnount of workd-building before writing the Hobbit, it's pretty clear to me that there were a lot of silly things that happened in the first story that he had to ignore or retract. Stuff like tea-drinking (where did they get the tea from?). Gandalfs "slow-wittedness" about the ring in The Hobbit was I think basically that he hadnt really thought things through in all that much detail. Even the "no female dwarfs" thing was probably just something he hadnt really thought about much when he wrote The Hobbit for his son, who was a young kid at the time.

 

[nice90sguy]

By the way, I'm also pretty certain that Tolkeins image of Aragorn was very close to Basil Rathbone (I thought Viggo Mortenson was miscast). Aragorn totally channels Basil Rathbone's Sherlock Holmes when he's doing his sleuthing, and is the epiome of an English Upper-class gentleman, with all his derring-do.

I read LoTR when I was very young (too young), but got really into it in my late teens when I reread it. All in all, I thought the movies did an amazing job of compressing it, even though Tom Bombadil and The barrow-downs were excised from it.

Lothlorien was badly reproduced -- the imagery was clearly that of Pre-Rapaelite art in the original writing, but there was none of that in the movie. In fact the movie completely missed any English romantic sensibility, which was all over the book (and the Narnia stories too, of his friend CS Lewis).

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm seriously impressed at the depths of this fan-girldom.

Me, I thought it was just a book on my brother's bookshelf, that had its moments, but not that many...

I know, heathen infidel, and next he'll mention Gormenghast. Much fucking better, and Fuschia is... well, Fuschia. Wears a red dress.

It's why I started the thread. I knew we'd get this kind of reaction.

I've never read the Gormenghast books. I suppose they're another thing to add to my list.

 

[onehitwanda]

It's why I started the thread. I knew we'd get this kind of reaction.

I'm a magpie. Shiney Tolkien Threads are my kryptonite. When I was younger and stupider I even made myself a cloak and embroidered it with a facsimile of Rohirric symbols.

... shit I can't believe I just admitted that.

 

[BeechLeaf]

I was once stopped by the police in my cloak.

Cloak and sword, actually.

 

[Bamagan]

I'm a magpie. Shiney Tolkien Threads are my kryptonite. When I was younger and stupider I even made myself a cloak and embroidered it with a facsimile of Rohirric symbols.

... shit I can't believe I just admitted that.

I get the feeling you're only pretending to be slightly abashed and are actually pleased for the chance to admit it.

 

[nice90sguy]

the Gormenghast books

I read them too, as a precocious kid. Unreadably tedious to me -- but a great idea, an incredibly massive castle, like an entire country.
Michael Moorcocks weird parallel universe book Gloriana is dedicted to Mervyn Peake, and is about as unreadable as Titus Groan.

Mentioning Gloriana because I can tell that some people here are into those fantasy type books, and it's actually very well written and inventive, and Moorcock was a brilliant writer.

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm a magpie.

There are many birdwatchers here, so you're in the right place.

 

[onehitwanda]

There are many birdwatchers here, so you're in the right place.

Look at my lovely tits!

 

[TheLobster]

Despite what Tokein says about how he did a huge amnount of workd-building before writing the Hobbit, it's pretty clear to me that there were a lot of silly things that happened in the first story that he had to ignore or retract

Tolkien had to straight-up retcon the scene in Hobbit that is most important for LotR, because he first described Gollum giving up the ring willingly. The result is mediocre to say the least, but it had to be done for the ring's corrupting powers to make any sense in the trilogy.

 

[SimonDoom]

Tolkien had to straight-up retcon the scene in Hobbit that is most important for LotR, because he first described Gollum giving up the ring willingly. The result is mediocre to say the least, but it has to be done for the ring's corrupting powers to have any sense in the trilogy.

Unlike many, I read LOTR first, and the Hobbit a couple of years later. I remember being disappointed by The Hobbit, because it was just a children's story compared to LOTR and its tone, as well as some events, didn't fit with the trilogy.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I'm Éowyn's number one fangirl (I even have the card). But I have to say this for my girl - she fell in love with the image of the man, not the man. And I say that as someone who sees Elessar as "an image of the splendour of Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world".

Éowyn grew up amongst valorous men. Her uncle was the King of the Mark, her brother Éomer was one of Théoden's closest and most trusted commanders. She watched as these men she loved rode out to battle time and time again to defend the Riddermark - and she despaired because all she wished to do was ride and die beside them. Instead, she was forced because of her gender and position in the court to stay home - to be the nanny for her people while the people she adored and idolised won praise and victory and, sometimes, glorious deaths.

No queens of Rohan were buried in barrows, just the kings, in line of descent from Eorl the Young. Éowyn knew that no matter how she did her duty, her fate would be to fade away.

Enter Grima, and the possession of Théoden by Saruman. Imagine being Éowyn, watching your uncle the King descend into madness and dotage, knowing that his chance of glorious death was gone, but being unable to step aside from your duty. Now imagine Théodred - your cousin - dies and your brother is exiled. Yet you remain, the last of your house - but you are not a warrior in the eyes of your people, merely a woman. (Note, there is no indication that the title of Shield-Maiden that Éowyn ascribed to herself was in any way official in the Riddermark, though it is a common term in Saxon and Viking traditions that Tolkien borrwed from.)

So - you're a young, angry and confused. Your father figure is ill. Your brother is exiled, your cousin is gone. Shit is pretty fucking dark. Your greatest fear is



Éowyn wants glory - to win renown for herself and for her people, to be sung of by the Bards and remembered as something more than someone's wife or mother.

Enter Aragorn.



This man arrives at Edoras in company with Gandalf Stormcrow, has audiencei with Théoden... and suddenly, the Lord of the Mark comes forth from Meduseld bearing his sword - alert and years younger in appearance. The dotard is gone, your Uncle the King has miraculously returned, and this shaggy-haired dude was the only Man in the group.

So my girl fixates. She works out quickly that this Ranger is an accomplished warrior. She also sees that he is treated with deference by Théoden and Gandalf - Théoden listens to his counsel. He and his companions will be riding to Helm's Deep with the host of Edoras while Gandalf rides to find Erkenbrand and the men of the Westfold to come and bolster their numbers (and incidentally, break the siege).

Helms Deep happens. Théoden is victorious in Éowyn's eyes - as expected - but Aragorn performs several highly-visible deeds of valour each of which would probably earn him a Bard's oratory by itself. Éomer and Théoden themselves sing his praises. So of course our girl is watching him and going "I want some of that."

Somewhere along here she falls in "love" with the idea of him - the tall, dark, polite, honourable man who is so brave and valiant - he's ticking basically every box with a big fat green check mark, right?

But of course she doesn't have the history. She probably knows very little of the Rangers of the North - the last remnants of the last remnants of the men of the Kingdom of Annúminas. She likely doesn't know that Aragorn is the descendant of Isildur, wears the ring of Barahir, and is by rights King of Gondor. And she definitely doesn't know at first that Aragorn and Arwen Undómiel are basically pledged to one another.

She broods, and fixates, and crushes, and falls in love with this ideal Man.

And then he forces her hand at Dunharrow during the Marshalling of Rohan by announcing that he and the Grey Company will be taking the Paths of the Dead.

So my girl understandably loses the plot. She begs him not to go, confesses her love for him, entreats him to stay - and he gently, with great care and tact, disentangles himself. I firmly believe that Aragon loved Éowyn by this point - but as one would love their sister. Later, after his coronation, when Faramir and Eowyn are wed, he says:



I've got to admire him for this. A modern-day toe-rag would have totally boned her and disappeared by cock-crow. Aragorn recognised her and honoured her for her beauty, her bravery, and even at one point commented to her brother:



So now my girl decides since love is off the cards, Death it is then. But she doesn't want to die quietly and politely in some corner somewhere. My girl is a warrior, of the line of Eorl the Young, who rode out of the North to the Fields of Celebrant when Gondor's need was great.

She knows the final battle is coming. She embraces death, dons armour, and becomes Dernhelm for a time. She slays the Fell beast that slew Théoden. And then, because that's not awesome enough, my girl teams up with Merriadoc Brandybuck and stabs the fucking Witch King of Angmar in the face.

I mean. Wow, right?

Then various things happen, and Éowyn wakes up in the Houses of Healing, and lo and behold, there is Faramir. Both of them are bitterly hurt in body and soul, both of them yearn to be riding with the Lords of the West. They begin walking together on the walls of the house, and somewhere along the way she realises that he is, actually, the better of the two from her perspective.




I mean... yeah. I can't top that, right. This, right here, is probably the single most romantic passage I've ever read, anywhere, and it has lived rent-free in my head for decades.

Before she met Faramir, though, Éowyn was totally flicking the bean over Aragorn. Totally. Totally.

Shit, this turned into quite an essay. Sorry!

It’s funny. Tolkien was a) a man of his times, b) a conservative (in the British sense), Catholic, establishment figure, c) creating a genre which drew on the Elder Edda and other POC / women-free texts, and d) had a royalty worship fetish. And you see some of that in his writing for sure.

But, the accusations of racism are kinda dumb. There is even the memorable scene where (I think) Peregrine wonders about a dead ‘cruel Haradrim’ and his home life and what lies he had been told and what promises he had been made in order to fight for Mordor. Tolkien gives a dead, black ‘bad guy’ a mini-imagined back-story, and makes him a human like anyone else.

And multiple anecdotes from his life, plus extant letters show he was far from racist, particularly given the a) - d) I cite above. He is documented as standing up against antisemitism for example.

The same with women. His world of Oxford dons was a very masculine one. And most women in his work (where they appear at all) are ethereal and beautiful (Arwen, Goldberry), ethereal and beautiful and wise (Galadriel), or just background figures.

And then you have Eowyn. One of the most relatable and memorable heroines in literature. This supposedly male-centric guy writes a totally believable arc for an awkward, angry, depressed, down-trodden, desperate young woman who yearns to break free from her societal bonds. And she is awesome, totally awesome.

And she’s so much more of a woman than your average chick lit protagonist. Even her crush on Aragorn is in character and consistent with a confused and hurt young woman yearning for anything but her current miserable situation.

Eowyn is not the work of a misogynist - she’s a rounded, flawed, scared young woman, and in many ways she is the stand out character of the whole book. And I identified with her so, so much too.

 

[StrentWriter]

I really wish I had something meaningful to add, but as a long time Tolkien fan, can I just say I appreciate you all so much for this entirely wondrous thread. Thank you for something beautiful and thought provoking.

I will now go back to listening to the score from The Hobbit whilst I work.

Fool of a Took that I am!

 

[Statius]

First read Tolkien when I was 12 and just remember being so mad Aragorn didn't end up with Eowyn, at the time it didn't make sense to me and to some extent I'm still mad about it. She was one of my favorite characters and the Rohan sequences in LOtR are still my favorite.

 

[SimonDoom]

First read Tolkien when I was 12 and just remember being so mad Aragorn didn't end up with Eowyn, at the time it didn't make sense to me and to some extent I'm still mad about it. She was one of my favorite characters and the Rohan sequences in LOtR are still my favorite.

I think it added poignancy to the story that her crush was unrequited.

I liked her arc, at least until she and Faramir get together. That seemed a bit rushed and contrived. If she really pined for Aragorn could she really fall in love with another man so fast?

 

[StrentWriter]

I think it added poignancy to the story that her crush was unrequited.

Agree with this. There was an extraordinary elegance and beauty to how it was portrayed in the written word, too.

 

[TheArsonist]

I liked her arc, at least until she and Faramir get together. That seemed a bit rushed and contrived. If she really pined for Aragorn could she really fall in love with another man so fast?

Tolkien responded to this criticism in an unsent letter (letter 244 in the collected Letters):

It is possible to love more than one person (of the other sex) at the same time, but in a different mode and intensity. I do not think that Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn really changed much; and when he was revealed as so lofty a figure, in descent and office, she was able to go on loving and admiring him. He was old, and that is not only a physical quality: when not accompanied by any physical decay age can be alarming or awe-inspiring. Also she was not herself ambitious in the true political sense. Though not a 'dry nurse' in temper, she was also not really a soldier or 'amazon', but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.

In my experience feelings and decisions ripen very quickly (as measured by mere 'clock-time', which is actually not justly applicable) in periods of great stress, and especially under the expectation of imminent death. And I do not think that persons of high estate and breeding need all the petty fencing and approaches in matters of 'love'. This tale does not deal with a period of 'Courtly Love' and its pretences; but with a culture more primitive (sc. less corrupt) and nobler.

 

[YmaOHyd]

Also, Faramir is Aragorn in his essential qualities, but more approachable and human. He looks at her, rather than through her.

 

[StillStunned]

I liked her arc, at least until she and Faramir get together. That seemed a bit rushed and contrived. If she really pined for Aragorn could she really fall in love with another man so fast?

She had something like two conversations with Aragorn, but spent weeks talking and bonding with Faramir.

 

[SimonDoom]

Tolkien responded to this criticism in an unsent letter (letter 244 in the collected Letters):

I hadn't seen this before. It's amazing how much has been written on these subjects.

 

[onehitwanda]

She had something like two conversations with Aragorn, but spent weeks talking and bonding with Faramir.

s/d/k/g

 

[BeechLeaf]

All EmilyMiller says about his attitudes and his time is correct, of course, and we all probably wince at certain things. But then there was his lifelong inspiration, generally and for specific characters, and beyond life, as on their gravestone:

EDITH MARY TOLKIEN
LUTHIEN​

 

[StillStunned]

s/d/k/g

 

[EmilyMiller]

All EmilyMiller says about his attitudes and his time is correct, of course, and we all probably wince at certain things. But then there was his lifelong inspiration, generally and for specific characters, and beyond life, as on their gravestone:

EDITH MARY TOLKIEN
LUTHIEN​

I visited their shared grave when I was studying in London.

 

[SimonDoom]

Point of View Characters

I'm trying to recall who all the point of view characters are in LOTR.

The major ones are Frodo, Sam, Pippin, and Merry.

Bilbo, in the beginning.

Aragorn, a little bit. I think. Maybe I'm wrong.

Faramir, at the end. Gimli, briefly, IIRC during the Paths of the Dead scene.

I don't recall Gandalf being a point of view character, or Legolas.

I'm not sure if I'd call Eowyn a point of view character, except Tolkien briefly narrates how she first perceived Aragorn, so that's a bit of point of view.

An interesting choice is that when characters of different "station" are together, the character of lesser station generally has the point of view. Thus the Hobbits get most POV time, and when one Hobbit is with another character, such as Merry with Eowyn or Pippin with Gandalf, the Hobbit gets the point of view. In Path of the Dead scene, if I recall Gimli has the POV, not Aragorn.

It's very different from Game of Thrones, where POV shifts from one chapter to another and stays on one character's POV throughout the chapter, and where POV is generously spread around among different types of characters.

I'm doing this from memory. I could be way off or forgetting somebody.