Tolkien Fans: Comments and Questions

[Bramblethorn]

I never thought about it, but I figure magic is consistent enough that a wizard could figure it out. Like, maybe it took a Sauron to figure out how to make it, but then another wizard and the elves could figure out how to unmake it.

Remembering also that "wizards" in LotR aren't merely humans who studied hard at wizard school. In Catholic terms they're angels walking the earth in human form, acting as agents of more powerful angels (the Valar). Gandalf (and Sauron, Saruman, Radagast, the two blue dudes, Melian, and assorted Balrogs) were part of the choir that created the world. His knowledge runs pretty deep.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Be honest, Tolkien fans.

Don't you wonder about Aragorn and Eowyn getting it on at some point?

I shipped Aragorn and Eowyn pretty hard, because Arwen was mostly Being Very Pretty Offstage and Eowyn...look, in this house we RESPECT a woman who drags up so she can stab the King of the Nazgûl in the face.

It's one of the reasons I didn't object to Jackson putting Arwen in Glorfindel's place at the ford crossing. It makes Aragorn's choice more understandable to modern audiences (in a story which, let's face it, is not overflowing with significant female characters) and Tolkien himself acknowledged that it didn't have to be Glorfindel, and probably shouldn't have.

But Aragorn wouldn't have cheated on Arwen. He'd have broken off the engagement with her before pursuing things with Eowyn.

 

[Voboy]

Be honest, Tolkien fans.

Don't you wonder about Aragorn and Eowyn getting it on at some point?

Think about it from Aragorn's POV. You're the most eligible bachelor in Middle-Earth. Arwen is hundreds of miles away, and you've been hanging out in the wilderness with dudes on a desperate quest for a long time, with no relief.

Suddenly, you are faced with a hot horse-warrior princess who is practically throwing herself at you.

You've got to be thinking, "I'll invite her into my tent. I'll have Legolas stand watch at the tent door. Elves are discreet. Nobody will know."

I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought about this.

Nah. There was no opportunity. He was never alone with her long enough to get it goin'.

Besides, Aragorn likes to edge.

 

[YmaOHyd]

Also elves are absolutely chatty bitches.

 

[Writer61]

Nah. There was no opportunity. He was never alone with her long enough to get it goin'.

Not in the book, but Aragorn had been knocking around for yonks beforehand.

 

[Britva415]

Not in the book, but Aragorn had been knocking around for yonks beforehand.

A real yonkknocker

 

[Voboy]

Not in the book, but Aragorn had been knocking around for yonks beforehand.

Yeah... I liked the movies, but the book is my canon and the movies are not. Even if Aragorn wanted to fuck Eowyn, and even if Eowyn was down for a mere roll in the hay (which was not her intent; she wanted to be a queen at that point), there was simply no opportunity. Aragorn is also not a pedo; he reminds Eowyn that he walked the land of Rohan "ere [she] was born to grace it," implying he thought she was far too young (and probably too rustic) for his impressive neo-Numenorean loins.

As for Aragorn's past? I think we're supposed to believe he was waaaay too noble to go around boning any female randos when he was Thorongil. Well, too noble, and too in love with Arwen; as Aragorn's mama pointed out, he was setting his sights quite high right from the start. His canonical devotion to Arwen, I think, precludes any messing around once he'd met her.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

You've got to be thinking, "I'll invite her into my tent. I'll have Legolas stand watch at the tent door. Elves are discreet. Nobody will know."

I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought about this.

Aragorn is over a century old at this point, and we know the fertility of the Numenoreans is less than that of "lesser" races. Presumably their sex drive, too.

 

[Voboy]

Aragorn is over a century old at this point, and we know the fertility of the Numenoreans is less than that of "lesser" races. Presumably their sex drive, too.

Nah. He's only in his eighties. And, as far as we know, still a virgin!

Whatever happened, he was later able to whelp a son and an unspecified (but plural!) number of daughters on Arwen. So he seems to have been fully "capable" in that regard.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Aragorn is also not a pedo; he reminds Eowyn that he walked the land of Rohan "ere [she] was born to grace it," implying he thought she was far too young (and probably too rustic) for his impressive neo-Numenorean loins.

Okay, but if we're talking age gaps, Arwen/Aragorn is far worse. Arwen was born in TA 241, Aragorn in 2931, and they met somewhere around 2950 when Aragorn was "in his nineteenth year" and Arwen about 2709 years old. Aragorn fell in love immediately but Arwen didn't reciprocate until thirty years later...when she would still have been more than fifty times his age.

Nah. He's only in his eighties. And, as far as we know, still a virgin!

I think I met that guy in the Lit forums one time.

 

[Britva415]

Yeah... I liked the movies, but the book is my canon and the movies are not. Even if Aragorn wanted to fuck Eowyn, and even if Eowyn was down for a mere roll in the hay (which was not her intent; she wanted to be a queen at that point), there was simply no opportunity. Aragorn is also not a pedo; he reminds Eowyn that he walked the land of Rohan "ere [she] was born to grace it," implying he thought she was far too young (and probably too rustic) for his impressive neo-Numenorean loins.

As for Aragorn's past? I think we're supposed to believe he was waaaay too noble to go around boning any female randos when he was Thorongil. Well, too noble, and too in love with Arwen; as Aragorn's mama pointed out, he was setting his sights quite high right from the start. His canonical devotion to Arwen, I think, precludes any messing around once he'd met her.

Wasn’t Arwen also a hell of a lot younger than he, too?

EDIT:
Nevermind. @Bramblethorn right there with the receipts.

I didn’t count her Elf years.

 

[Voboy]

Okay, but if we're talking age gaps, Arwen/Aragorn is far worse. Arwen was born in TA 241, Aragorn in 2931, and they met somewhere around 2950 when Aragorn was "in his nineteenth year" and Arwen about 2709 years old. Aragorn fell in love immediately but Arwen didn't reciprocate until thirty years later...when she would still have been more than fifty times his age.

This is true... but it's Aragorn's story, not Arwen's; we get his viewpoints. Elrond had doubts about their relationship partly because of that age gap, but Arwen didn't seem to care once her decision was made. Aragorn mentions it directly to Eowyn, so it's on his mind as something he seems to think is important when turning her aside.

Arwen, as you know, is just about nonexistent in the books. She has more time in the appendices than she does in the main text, and by quite some margin. I do think it's sorta interesting, in a role-reversal sense, that Eowyn's love for Aragorn is somewhat parallel to Aragorn's for Arwen: both are aiming high, and know it.

 

[SimonDoom]

Okay, but if we're talking age gaps, Arwen/Aragorn is far worse. Arwen was born in TA 241, Aragorn in 2931, and they met somewhere around 2950 when Aragorn was "in his nineteenth year" and Arwen about 2709 years old. Aragorn fell in love immediately but Arwen didn't reciprocate until thirty years later...when she would still have been more than fifty times his age.

In Literotica terms, LOTR is a Mature story.

Works for me.

 

[YmaOHyd]

She's also related to him. She's Elrond's daughter. Elrond's brother Elros is Aragorn's many-times-great grandfather; they're first cousins sixty-something times removed.

 

[Bramblethorn]

She's also related to him. She's Elrond's daughter. Elrond's brother Elros is Aragorn's many-times-great grandfather; they're first cousins sixty-something times removed.

Mind you, just about any two random people on Earth would be more closely related than Arwen and Aragorn are to one another. It's only incestuous because they keep records.

 

[StillStunned]

I take it every true Tolkien fan is familiar with "DM of the Rings".

 

[onehitwanda]

This is true... but it's Aragorn's story, not Arwen's; we get his viewpoints. Elrond had doubts about their relationship partly because of that age gap, but Arwen didn't seem to care once her decision was made. Aragorn mentions it directly to Eowyn, so it's on his mind as something he seems to think is important when turning her aside.

Arwen, as you know, is just about nonexistent in the books. She has more time in the appendices than she does in the main text, and by quite some margin. I do think it's sorta interesting, in a role-reversal sense, that Eowyn's love for Aragorn is somewhat parallel to Aragorn's for Arwen: both are aiming high, and know it.

I'm Éowyn's number one fangirl (I even have the card). But I have to say this for my girl - she fell in love with the image of the man, not the man. And I say that as someone who sees Elessar as "an image of the splendour of Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world".

Éowyn grew up amongst valorous men. Her uncle was the King of the Mark, her brother Éomer was one of Théoden's closest and most trusted commanders. She watched as these men she loved rode out to battle time and time again to defend the Riddermark - and she despaired because all she wished to do was ride and die beside them. Instead, she was forced because of her gender and position in the court to stay home - to be the nanny for her people while the people she adored and idolised won praise and victory and, sometimes, glorious deaths.

No queens of Rohan were buried in barrows, just the kings, in line of descent from Eorl the Young. Éowyn knew that no matter how she did her duty, her fate would be to fade away.

Enter Grima, and the possession of Théoden by Saruman. Imagine being Éowyn, watching your uncle the King descend into madness and dotage, knowing that his chance of glorious death was gone, but being unable to step aside from your duty. Now imagine Théodred - your cousin - dies and your brother is exiled. Yet you remain, the last of your house - but you are not a warrior in the eyes of your people, merely a woman. (Note, there is no indication that the title of Shield-Maiden that Éowyn ascribed to herself was in any way official in the Riddermark, though it is a common term in Saxon and Viking traditions that Tolkien borrwed from.)

So - you're a young, angry and confused. Your father figure is ill. Your brother is exiled, your cousin is gone. Shit is pretty fucking dark. Your greatest fear is

"A cage," she answered. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire"

Éowyn wants glory - to win renown for herself and for her people, to be sung of by the Bards and remembered as something more than someone's wife or mother.

Enter Aragorn.

A strange-looking weather-beaten Man with a shaggy head of dark hair flecked with grey, and in a pale stern face a pair of keen grey eyes

This man arrives at Edoras in company with Gandalf Stormcrow, has audiencei with Théoden... and suddenly, the Lord of the Mark comes forth from Meduseld bearing his sword - alert and years younger in appearance. The dotard is gone, your Uncle the King has miraculously returned, and this shaggy-haired dude was the only Man in the group.

So my girl fixates. She works out quickly that this Ranger is an accomplished warrior. She also sees that he is treated with deference by Théoden and Gandalf - Théoden listens to his counsel. He and his companions will be riding to Helm's Deep with the host of Edoras while Gandalf rides to find Erkenbrand and the men of the Westfold to come and bolster their numbers (and incidentally, break the siege).

Helms Deep happens. Théoden is victorious in Éowyn's eyes - as expected - but Aragorn performs several highly-visible deeds of valour each of which would probably earn him a Bard's oratory by itself. Éomer and Théoden themselves sing his praises. So of course our girl is watching him and going "I want some of that."

Somewhere along here she falls in "love" with the idea of him - the tall, dark, polite, honourable man who is so brave and valiant - he's ticking basically every box with a big fat green check mark, right?

But of course she doesn't have the history. She probably knows very little of the Rangers of the North - the last remnants of the last remnants of the men of the Kingdom of Annúminas. She likely doesn't know that Aragorn is the descendant of Isildur, wears the ring of Barahir, and is by rights King of Gondor. And she definitely doesn't know at first that Aragorn and Arwen Undómiel are basically pledged to one another.

She broods, and fixates, and crushes, and falls in love with this ideal Man.

And then he forces her hand at Dunharrow during the Marshalling of Rohan by announcing that he and the Grey Company will be taking the Paths of the Dead.

So my girl understandably loses the plot. She begs him not to go, confesses her love for him, entreats him to stay - and he gently, with great care and tact, disentangles himself. I firmly believe that Aragon loved Éowyn by this point - but as one would love their sister. Later, after his coronation, when Faramir and Eowyn are wed, he says:

And Faramir and Éowyn stood forth and set hand in hand; and all there drank to them and were glad. 'Thus,' said Éomer, 'is the friendship of the Mark and of Gondor bound with a new bond, and the more do I rejoice.'

'No niggard are you, Éomer,' said Aragorn, 'to give thus to Gondor the fairest thing in your realm!'

Then Éowyn looked in the eyes of Aragorn, and she said: ‘Wish me joy, my liege-lord and healer!'

And he answered: ‘I have wished thee joy ever since first I saw thee. It heals my heart to see thee now in bliss.'

I've got to admire him for this. A modern-day toe-rag would have totally boned her and disappeared by cock-crow. Aragorn recognised her and honoured her for her beauty, her bravery, and even at one point commented to her brother:

But Aragorn said: “I saw also what you saw, Éomer. Few other griefs amid the ill chances of this world have more bitterness and shame for a man’s heart than to behold the love of a lady so fair and brave that cannot be returned. Sorrow and pity have followed me ever since I left her desperate in Dunharrow and rode to the Paths of the Dead; and no fear upon that way was so present as the fear for what might befall her. And yet, Éomer, I say to you that she loves you more truly than me; for you she loves and knows; but in me she loves only a shadow and a thought: a hope of glory and great deeds, and lands far from the fields of Rohan.”

So now my girl decides since love is off the cards, Death it is then. But she doesn't want to die quietly and politely in some corner somewhere. My girl is a warrior, of the line of Eorl the Young, who rode out of the North to the Fields of Celebrant when Gondor's need was great.

She knows the final battle is coming. She embraces death, dons armour, and becomes Dernhelm for a time. She slays the Fell beast that slew Théoden. And then, because that's not awesome enough, my girl teams up with Merriadoc Brandybuck and stabs the fucking Witch King of Angmar in the face.

I mean. Wow, right?

Then various things happen, and Éowyn wakes up in the Houses of Healing, and lo and behold, there is Faramir. Both of them are bitterly hurt in body and soul, both of them yearn to be riding with the Lords of the West. They begin walking together on the walls of the house, and somewhere along the way she realises that he is, actually, the better of the two from her perspective.

"Do not scorn the pity that is the gift of a gentle heart, Eowyn! But I do not offer you my pity. For you are a lady high and valiant and have yourself won renown that shall not be forgotten; and you are a lady beautiful, I deem, beyond even the words of the Elven-tongue to tell. And I love you. Once I pitied your sorrow. But now, were you sorrowless, without fear or any lack, were you the blissful Queen of Gondor, still I would love you. Eowyn, do you not love me?'

Then the heart of Eowyn changed, or else at last she understood it. And suddenly her winter passed, and the sun shone on her.

'I stand in Minas Anor, the Tower of the Sun,' she said, 'and behold! the Shadow has departed! I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren.' And again she looked at Faramir. 'No longer to I desire to be a queen,' she said.

Then Faramir laughed merrily. 'That is well,' he said; 'for I am not a king. Yet I will wed with the White Lady of Rohan, if it be her will. And if she will, then let us cross the River and in happier days let us dwell in fair Ithilien and there make a garden. All things will grow with joy there, if the White Lady comes.'

'Then I must leave my own people, man of Gondor?' she said. 'And would you have your proud folk say of you: "There goes a lord who tamed a wild shieldmaiden of the North! Was there no woman of the race of Numenor to choose?"'

'I would,' said Faramir.

And he took her in his arms and kissed her under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many."

I mean... yeah. I can't top that, right. This, right here, is probably the single most romantic passage I've ever read, anywhere, and it has lived rent-free in my head for decades.

Before she met Faramir, though, Éowyn was totally flicking the bean over Aragorn. Totally. Totally.

Shit, this turned into quite an essay. Sorry!

 

[StillStunned]

Before she met Faramir, though, Éowyn was totally flicking the bean over Aragorn. Totally. Totally.

And because it's Tolkien we'll have to assume that the only reason she visits him in her nightie as he's getting ready for bed is to talk to him. Just talk.

 

[BeechLeaf]

I'm adding 'a shadow and a thought' and 'her winter passed' to my list of good titles, now what would the story be?

 

[ElectricBlue]

Shit, this turned into quite an essay. Sorry!

I'm seriously impressed at the depths of this fan-girldom.

Me, I thought it was just a book on my brother's bookshelf, that had its moments, but not that many...

I know, heathen infidel, and next he'll mention Gormenghast. Much fucking better, and Fuschia is... well, Fuschia. Wears a red dress.

 

[onehitwanda]

I'm seriously impressed at the depths of this fan-girldom.

When I was young, I think I identified very strongly with Eowyn. But even more, I have to respect that at a time when a strong woman's place was standing behind a famours man, Tolkien gave us someone - barely more than a girl - who was without a doubt a top-three badass in his books. In fact I think she's number two on my personal list, because Samwise Gamgee will always be my best boy for being so brave, and so humble, and so stout and true-hearted.

I love her, and I always will love her - through her descent into darkness and out the other side.

This portrait of her by Dmitry Sivakov is how I see her. Quiet. Withdrawn. Doomed. She's not pretty by some measures. But to me she's beautiful.

Elessar, Faramir and most importantly Meriadoc Brandybuck of all people provide her the help she needs to change her fate.

 

[BeechLeaf]

The essay encapsulates Éowyn's story well*, as when we're reading it in the book it's all there but we get somewhat distracted by various action scenes and other characters in between.

* and dare I say, makes it sound rather like a onehitwanda story

 

[TheLobster]

Be honest, Tolkien fans.

Don't you wonder about Aragorn and Eowyn getting it on at some point?

Think about it from Aragorn's POV. You're the most eligible bachelor in Middle-Earth. Arwen is hundreds of miles away, and you've been hanging out in the wilderness with dudes on a desperate quest for a long time, with no relief.

Suddenly, you are faced with a hot horse-warrior princess who is practically throwing herself at you.

You've got to be thinking, "I'll invite her into my tent. I'll have Legolas stand watch at the tent door. Elves are discreet. Nobody will know."

I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought about this.

*scribbles notes furiously for the Fan Fiction challenge*

 

[TheWritingGroup]

I know, heathen infidel, and next he'll mention Gormenghast. Much fucking better, and Fuschia is... well, Fuschia. Wears a red dress.

Gormenghast? Do you mean the unreadable pile of glop by Peake, or is there another, better story by that name?

 

[GrushaVashnadze]

I've always been more of a The Hobbit fan - as evidenced by this story, which begins thus:

In a Hole in an Arse there lived a Fockit...