Tolkien Fans: Comments and Questions

[Britva415]

I’m shorter than everyone, except Sabrina Carpenter.

She sure has a long name

 

[onehitwanda]

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fuck I ADORE Karlach.

 

[LegendInMyOwnMind]

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I'm going to hell.


You bum's nicer than hers, though.

Maybe so. I think a lot of fans of your preferred gender, if any, would enjoy taking the highway to hell with you.

 

[YmaOHyd]

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fuck I ADORE Karlach.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I remember reading an interview with JRR Tokein about that, and I think he said he resurrected Gandalf because his son, who he was writing for, wanted him back.


Despite what Tokein says about how he did a huge amnount of workd-building before writing the Hobbit, it's pretty clear to me that there were a lot of silly things that happened in the first story that he had to ignore or retract. Stuff like tea-drinking (where did they get the tea from?). Gandalfs "slow-wittedness" about the ring in The Hobbit was I think basically that he hadnt really thought things through in all that much detail. Even the "no female dwarfs" thing was probably just something he hadnt really thought about much when he wrote The Hobbit for his son, who was a young kid at the time.

In the first published edition of The Hobbit, Bilbo's interaction with Gollum is very different. Gollum stakes "a present" (the Ring) as a prize in the riddle game, not realising that it's already in Bilbo's pocket; when Bilbo wins, he attempts to honour his promise and is distressed when he can't find it, because he doesn't mean to cheat. Eventually he agrees to show Bilbo out of the caves instead. Tolkien had to revise this heavily when writing LotR because it didn't fit with his new ideas about what the Ring was.

Comparison of the original and revised versions: https://www.ringgame.net/riddles.html

There are a lot of other, subtler differences between Hobbit and LotR. The slapstick trolls that Bilbo meets feel quite different to the more animalistic ones in LotR, and magic in LotR feels like a more remote presence than in The Hobbit where even the trolls have a talking bag.

Also differences between LotR and the Silmarillion. IIRC Tolkien significantly revised his ideas about Balrogs along the way - the version that shows up in Moria is vastly more powerful than the ones in Silmarillion, where a single battle might feature many Balrogs with one warrior slaying several.

 

[YmaOHyd]

the version that shows up in Moria is vastly more powerful than the ones in Silmarillion, where a single battle might feature many Balrogs with one warrior slaying several.

Also worth saying, though, that the quality of warrior in the Silmarillion is much higher.

 

[onehitwanda]

Also differences between LotR and the Silmarillion. IIRC Tolkien significantly revised his ideas about Balrogs along the way - the version that shows up in Moria is vastly more powerful than the ones in Silmarillion, where a single battle might feature many Balrogs with one warrior slaying several.

One could also argue that the warriors of the time of the Silmarillion were people of the calibre of Hurin, Glorfindel, Beren, and not least Ecthelion - who single-handedly killed Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs.

So while Durin's Bane definitely got buffed (boo), I think Tolkien also leaned heavily into the heroes of the Third Age being far less powerful than the mythical warriors of the First and Second ages.

From what I remember, the Balrogs were corrupted Maiar - so a single Balrog was a match for a Maiar like Gandalf.

 

[TheLobster]

Also worth saying, though, that the quality of warrior in the Silmarillion is much higher.

It definitely sounds like a great argument to be has: were the Balrogs of old wimpier, or were the First Age elves stronger?

In general, the “everything decays with time” leitmotif of Tolkien’s works doesn’t seem to fully apply to evil. Sauron is technically a lesser being than Melkor, and it’s his successor, but it took a literal divine intervention to really harm him while his old boss would (IIRC) start limping because someone hit him with his own hammer.

 

[SimonDoom]

One could also argue that the warriors of the time of the Silmarillion were people of the calibre of Hurin, Glorfindel, Beren, and not least Ecthelion - who single-handedly killed Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs.

So while Durin's Bane definitely got buffed (boo), I think Tolkien also leaned heavily into the heroes of the Third Age being far less powerful than the mythical warriors of the First and Second ages.

From what I remember, the Balrogs were corrupted Maiar - so a single Balrog was a match for a Maiar like Gandalf.

This is an interesting theme of LOTR, a reflection of Tolkien's conservatism and Catholicism -- the idea of the fallen world. That the people of the Third Age don't match up to the people of the First or Second. Aragorn says to Boromoir in the council of Elrond, almost apologetically, that he does not resemble the images of Isildur or Elendil. We don't quite believe him, because we believe IN him, but the theme is there.

It's offset by Tolkien's confidence in Sam, the humble gardener who saves Middle-earth.

There's a lot going on there.

 

[EmilyMiller]

This is an interesting theme of LOTR, a reflection of Tolkien's conservatism and Catholicism -- the idea of the fallen world. That the people of the Third Age don't match up to the people of the First or Second. Aragorn says to Boromoir in the council of Elrond, almost apologetically, that he does not resemble the images of Isildur or Elendil. We don't quite believe him, because we believe IN him, but the theme is there.

He absolutely believed in a post-Eden world

It's offset by Tolkien's confidence in Sam, the humble gardener who saves Middle-earth.

He is on record as saying that Sam was an amalgam of the junior soldiers allocated to officers like him in Word War I as servants - batmen is I think the term - who he recognized as being of at least equal character and integrity to himself and his fellow officers.

There's a lot going on there

Indeed

 

[Voboy]

I’ve always found it useful to think of the legendarium in the way Tolkien might have wanted: as a collection of myths and legends written by different people at different times.

So “canon” in that context is as flexible as it needs to be. There are several versions of Tuor’s arrival at Gondolin? No problem: there are also four synoptic gospels. Same matter, different meanings and emphases.

“How powerful were the Balrogs” is a meaningless question in that context. The Zero fighter was nearly unbeatable in 1941, but was more or less a cakewalk by 1945. Different times, different sources, trained differently. Besides, who says all the balrogs were equally great? Gandalf The Grey is not as powerful as Saruman at any point, and nobody whines about that even though both were Maiar.

So maybe Durin’s Bane was the Gandalf The White of balrogs, while the ones at Gondolin or the ones that confronted Feanor were more like the Radagast version. Or the chronicler mistranslated a word, or had weak comprehension of balrogs vs trolls. It’s all good. A sufficiently open minded reader can reconcile all these points.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I wonder if we will be discussing the nuances of Game of Thrones in 2068 (72 years after it was published).

 

[YmaOHyd]

It definitely sounds like a great argument to be has: were the Balrogs of old wimpier, or were the First Age elves stronger?

In general, the “everything decays with time” leitmotif of Tolkien’s works doesn’t seem to fully apply to evil. Sauron is technically a lesser being than Melkor, and it’s his successor, but it took a literal divine intervention to really harm him while his old boss would (IIRC) start limping because someone hit him with his own hammer.

Sauron is a lesser being than Melkor, but the foes arrayed against him are lesser still. Melkor's winning until Earendil, who has been sanctified by the Valar, and the hosts of the Undying Land arrive. One of the things that's suggested (at least; it may be outright stated) is that the elves of Middle-Earth are lesser than those of Aman, and that those who come from Aman are strongest right when they set foot in Middle-Earth.

One could also argue that the warriors of the time of the Silmarillion were people of the calibre of Hurin, Glorfindel, Beren, and not least Ecthelion - who single-handedly killed Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs.

So while Durin's Bane definitely got buffed (boo), I think Tolkien also leaned heavily into the heroes of the Third Age being far less powerful than the mythical warriors of the First and Second ages.

From what I remember, the Balrogs were corrupted Maiar - so a single Balrog was a match for a Maiar like Gandalf.

Even someone like Glorfindel, who's presented as one of the powerhouses of Middle-Earth (Elrond says that not even Glorfindel could open the road to the Fire with strength, which is a super obvious thing to say about anyone unless there's a question about it. Like you wouldn't say, well, it's fine, Aragorn can just take you there and kill anything in the way) is, you know, pretty ordinary by the standards of the Elder Days. When warriors are fighting against Balrogs in groups, it's Feanor and the sons of Feanor, and Feanor is pretty fucking close to being a god.

 

[YmaOHyd]

I wonder if we will be discussing the nuances of Game of Thrones in 2068 (72 years after it was published).

Series won't be done by then.

 

[SimonDoom]

He absolutely believed in a post-Eden world

He is on record as saying that Sam was an amalgam of the junior soldiers allocated to officers like him in Word War I as servants - batmen is I think the term - who he recognized as being of at least equal character and integrity to himself and his fellow officers.

Indeed

If you haven't read it, you might like Paul Fussell's The Great War and Modern Memory, a book about the ways in which British authors came to terms with the experience of World War 1.

I say "if" because I don't assume you haven't read something. You've obviously read a lot.

 

[EmilyMiller]

If you haven't read it, you might like Paul Fussell's The Great War and Modern Memory, a book about the ways in which British authors came to terms with the experience of World War 1.

I say "if" because I don't assume you haven't read something. You've obviously read a lot.

No, I haven’t. But I have read quite a lot about Tolkien, as well as getting quite some way into the stuff CRRT published before discovering sex was even more fun

 

[SimonDoom]

What are your favorite scenes in LOTR?

Mine:

The entire sequence in the mines of Moria is suspenseful and enjoyable, and also moving and shocking, because of the fall of Gandalf.

Eowyn and Merry working together to kill the Witch-King is the best "fuck yeah!" scene in the book.

Sam defeating Shelob, and then believing Frodo is dead, and taking the ring out of a sense of obligation, and facing its temptation and corruption, and resisting it, and going back to save his friend, is the key turning point of the story.

 

[nice90sguy]

In the first published edition of The Hobbit, Bilbo's interaction with Gollum is very different.

That was edition I read as a kid, a tattered hand-me-down from my (much) older brother. Unlike LOTR, which Ive re-read a few times, I havent picked it up since.
My brother is responsible for most of my early literary experiences, including Penthouse and The Furry Freak Brothers.

 

[YmaOHyd]

What are your favorite scenes in LOTR?

The aristeia of Theoden at the Pelennor, the Scouring of the Shire and its rebuilding, Fatty Bolger's escape from Crickhallow, the council of Elrond.

 

[MelissaBaby]

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I'm going to hell.


You bum's nicer than hers, though.

That tall girl thing is for real, for real.

You ever notice how low lots of public toilets are? Sometimes my knees are so bent, I have to avoid knocking my glasses off. Now, I've knocked other people's glasses off with my knees and that was fine. But not my own.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

I wonder if we will be discussing the nuances of Game of Thrones in 2068 (72 years after it was published).

I personally plan to be very dead in 2068.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I personally plan to be very dead in 2068.

I shall be well into my wearing purple phase

 

[old_prof]

There are a lot of other, subtler differences between Hobbit and LotR.

People here keep begging writers to finish their series before starting to publish it...

 

[Bamagan]

He is on record as saying that Sam was an amalgam of the junior soldiers allocated to officers like him in Word War I as servants - batmen is I think the term - who he recognized as being of at least equal character and integrity to himself and his fellow officers.

That reminds me of a parody of sorts I once thought about writing. There are a number of somewhat amusing parallels between Frodo and Bruce Wayne. They are wealthy orphans who set out on a quest that ultimately becomes a battle against the forces of darkness, waged with stealth. They benefit from having access to some of the rarest and/or most useful gear in the entire world. They team up for a while with other remarkable individuals, but spend most of the time fighting the good fight with just the help of their servant, although there's some assistance from a villainous adversary as well as a 'law enforcement agent' who agrees to look the other way and allows the mission to proceed.

Working title was Batman Baggins.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Working title was Batman Baggins.

No! Just no!