Training New Dominants

[DVS]

The subject line gave me a horrible mental image of a bunch of sweaty guys in black leather in some sort of bizarre boot camp....

sweaty guys, yes. But, I don't think they would receive their black leather until graduation...there would be a large cerimony, and the smell of new leather would be overpowering.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

.... I personally feel Old Gaurd training is best for most people; it allows for the inexperienced to gain knowledge in the lifestyle from the bottom up and helps them see both sides to the pyl/PYL coin.

.... Meh. No offense to the Old Guard, but I don't see it. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but I don't see a need to completely warp my role and do something that I find completely against my grain in order to learn to be a better Top. Not to say that I would not bottom for specific purposes, but that I am not of the opinion that some extended period of service is necessary to be a good Top.

Homburg expressed my feelings up to the last sentence above. I don't do well at bottoming in any sense of the word, and especially agree with "don't see a need to completely warp my role."

For some PYLs, this is certainly understandable. These PYLs are what I refer to as 'naturals'. However, for those who are not naturally dominant, I think serving some time at the bottom can be beneficial to understand that place and what it takes to not only be there but to put someone else there.

at the concept of "not naturally dominant" and why someone would want to go against their nature to be there.

The new PYLs get trained also. I turn to many for learning. I asked a veteran PYL to be my teacher/mentor.....he said yes, thus I am learning. I also learn from everyone I meet in the lifestyle in one form or another. I listen, thus I learn. I watch, thus I learn. I bottom, thus I learn. I ask questions, thus I learn. And when I top, I let the bottom know that I want feedback and that is my way to continue to learn.

I love the word you used second-most in this paragraph: Learn. Learn. Learn. When I stop learning, I stop being effective both for myself and for my pyl.

As for Old Guard - that style of training is not for everyone. I respect the men of past that we now call Old Guard. I respect their traditions, which I am working on learning myself. But it is true that if someone does not respect those traditions or wish to learn that way, it won't work. You can be a GREAT PYL with out having gone from the bottom up, I know a few. I think the key is, PYLs who don't seek knowledge and training may not be the best for pyls to want to be with.

I respect those people - to a degree - for being true to their concept of our culture... until they have the unmitigated (and undeserved) arrogance to say that if I don't do it their way, I'm not doing it right.

.... If you mean "should a Top bottom" IMO, yes. Just like I think a serious student of Italian Renaissance art should at some point go to Florence. I'm pretty unpopular for that POV in the current climate, but so what. I have a better sensory understanding of almost all the implements in my arsenal than I would have had I not bottomed a bunch, I have a more gut-level understanding and empathy than I would have had I not when I'm out there destroying an ego erotically - than I would have had I never played my own edges.
....

The whole scene has gotten very disrespectfully AGAINST bottoming as a learning strategy.

I've never bottomed. Don't ever see myself doing so. I have used or had used on me certain implements, to better acquaint myself with the sensations they bring, but that was to me a learning experience and not in any way bottoming.

.... The issue I have is the common tale, however accurate, of having to serve as a submissive for a year and a day, or whatever, prior to learning to top. No thank you. I may stand still for a flogging, but I have no desire to kneel before anyone, for any reason. This is the issue I have.

Amen, brutha!

Eh. And I say that for a very specific reason, and that is my view on power structures is different due to my upbringing. I was a military brat from day one, and you are positively immersed in power structures in that sort of life. When you are in the military, you know the rank of everyone you deal. When you are a military dependent, you know the rank of any other dependent's sponsor. That's just how it went.

I was raised to say sir and ma'am, and to offer respect where it was due, and "due" was a pretty broad range. Now, find me a Top that wants a salute instead of a bended knee and I might be more flexible. The bottom line for me is that I understand my psychology. Deeply ingrained from a young child forward were rules on how you treat authority. It's a different mindset.

Been there, done that, know perzackly what you mean, and 99% agree. Not only having been a military brat, but also having served in the military, I have "bowed" to the authority represented by superior rank, but never accepted that any innate personal superiority was conferred by that rank. In other words, I might do what was ordered because the one ordering had a higher rank while simultaneously thinking, "Fuck you, moron."

.... I guess I feel like I don't need it because I understand being on the bottom from that perspective of rank.

: nod :

.... You can train a Dom, if he has the basic desires, but you can't create those desires.

Yup. Even though I identify as a Sadist with Dominant tendencies, I don't think you can create a Dominant (or other type of PYL) from someone who doesn't have those desires hardwired into them.

 

[Netzach]

I respect those people - to a degree - for being true to their concept of our culture... until they have the unmitigated (and undeserved) arrogance to say that if I don't do it their way, I'm not doing it right.

The respect extends in the other direction until they have the unmitigated arrogance to laugh at the notion that the way I'm doing it might be valuable or worth consideration.

Not that you're doing it, it just seems like most of the kink world is. To the point it's a large part of why I'm kind of soured on the scene.

I'd rather try things and say "well shit, that doesn't work" than pre-empt as much as possible for me. That's how I live my life as much as I can.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

I respect those people - to a degree - for being true to their concept of our culture... until they have the unmitigated (and undeserved) arrogance to say that if I don't do it their way, I'm not doing it right.

The respect extends in the other direction until they have the unmitigated arrogance to laugh at the notion that the way I'm doing it might be valuable or worth consideration.

Not that you're doing it, it just seems like most of the kink world is. To the point it's a large part of why I'm kind of soured on the scene.

I'd rather try things and say "well shit, that doesn't work" than pre-empt as much as possible for me. That's how I live my life as much as I can.

I agree with your modification, Netz, though I hadn't thought about it that way, of them laughing at the idea that someone else's way "might be valuable or worth consideration." Good point. Kind of a reverse outlook.

Their way to me has value and is worth consideration for some people, just not for me. And likewise, your way, Homburg's way, JoeBlow's way has value for those who follow it and is worth consideration for some people. I've found the way I like to do things generally, though I still can learn from others and perhaps adopt parts of "their way" into mine. And I respect that you, Homburg, the Old Guarders, and JoeBlow may have found the way you like to do things, even if it's not my (perfect ) way.

 

[Netzach]

Been there, done that, know perzackly what you mean, and 99% agree. Not only having been a military brat, but also having served in the military, I have "bowed" to the authority represented by superior rank, but never accepted that any innate personal superiority was conferred by that rank. In other words, I might do what was ordered because the one ordering had a higher rank while simultaneously thinking, "Fuck you, moron."

Did you feel like this shaped you, you learned anything, or had any value for you?
Other than being a run of the mill demoralizing work experience?

I'm not being snarky in asking that.

I'd only had run of the mill demoralizing work experiences at the point in my life I'm talking about.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Been there, done that, know perzackly what you mean, and 99% agree. Not only having been a military brat, but also having served in the military, I have "bowed" to the authority represented by superior rank, but never accepted that any innate personal superiority was conferred by that rank. In other words, I might do what was ordered because the one ordering had a higher rank while simultaneously thinking, "Fuck you, moron."

Did you feel like this shaped you, you learned anything, or had any value for you?
Other than being a run of the mill demoralizing work experience?

I'm not being snarky in asking that.

I'd only had run of the mill demoralizing work experiences at the point in my life I'm talking about.

More than "shaping" me, I think the experience of having been an army brat and then serving in the Navy may have warped my persona to some extent. By the majority of the non-kink people who have known me, I have always been considered to be at least somewhat arrogant, expecting to lead, that my thoughts/ideas would at least be thoroughly considered, etc. (and often adopted ).

Being around the military and military families with that rigid power structure based on (largely) artificial rank/status, I was forced to submerge that part of my innate personality to the structure, which led to a great deal of rebellion, sometimes outward, always inward, and thus a lot of anger and bitterness at knowing I was smarter, more capable, or had better ideas that would not be considered because I was too far down the pyramid to be able to influence events. That's one reason I got the hell out of the Navy at my first opportunity. (That's the only time I've ever been grateful for a 30+ day migraine that totally incapacitated me! Thank the gods/goddesses for a slightly effed-up inner ear that causes me no problems whatsoever except in rolling seas! )

It (and 12 years of teaching in a similar power structure) did have value and teach me something, though - primarily that that type of power structure was not a good environment for me emotionally and psychologically, that I needed to be in an environment where I controlled more (preferably all ) of my day-to-day activities on both the work and a private levels.

That's kind of a long-winded answer to a relatively short question. I hope I answered it, or mostly so.

 

[Tyr51]

As a pyl, I've been recently in a unique situation. My PYL didn't have any experience in this arena. I'm not crazy-experienced myself, but when we met most of this was truly a new concept to him.

Here is my problem.... as a sub, once I become a teacher? I lose most sexual desire for that person. I have no problem communicating, or saying "oooh, that feels good... oh wait... yes RIGHT there.... please...." That's fine. Once I become a teacher (read: a dominant position), I lose the sexy feeling I get in being with my partner. I feel motherly, instructive, nurturing..... these are legitimate feelings and good for me in some places. I cannot be turned on if I feel that way about my lover (thus, likely why I am a sub). From the start we were clear: I cannot teach.

But I could talk about reading lists. He read my stories, he did research on his own. We're doing pretty well. We're still learning in places, but it's exciting for us.

Anyhow, not for this girl. I couldn't teach from the bottom.

 

[DVS]

As a pyl, I've been recently in a unique situation. My PYL didn't have any experience in this arena. I'm not crazy-experienced myself, but when we met most of this was truly a new concept to him.

Here is my problem.... as a sub, once I become a teacher? I lose most sexual desire for that person. I have no problem communicating, or saying "oooh, that feels good... oh wait... yes RIGHT there.... please...." That's fine. Once I become a teacher (read: a dominant position), I lose the sexy feeling I get in being with my partner. I feel motherly, instructive, nurturing..... these are legitimate feelings and good for me in some places. I cannot be turned on if I feel that way about my lover (thus, likely why I am a sub). From the start we were clear: I cannot teach.

But I could talk about reading lists. He read my stories, he did research on his own. We're doing pretty well. We're still learning in places, but it's exciting for us.

Anyhow, not for this girl. I couldn't teach from the bottom.

Well, that's something I hadn't thought about, but it makes sense. I can see how this would happen in more than one relationship. Like Tyr51 says, you become a teacher, which in essence is the dominant person in the relationship, at that point. And once the teacher, always the teacher, in most cases.

It's fine for a PYL to be the teacher for a newbie pyl, and in fact that seems quite normal for me to be in a teaching mode, but I've never thought of it being turned around. Talk about putting a stick in the works.

I'm guessing this isn't the case for all experienced subs with newbie Doms, but I also think some will not understand the feelings as well as Tyr51 does, and will just see it as non-sexual love. Some won't even connect it to the teaching of their Dom.

But, I'm also sure there are some who won't be affected in this way and will have no problems feeling like the teacher. It would be interesting to hear from a pyl who has taught their PYL in the past and is still in that relationship. Maybe there is a mindset that helps counter the teacher feelings.

I think it might also work, if the newly trained PYL would be creative on his own and surprise his pyl with something she hadn't taught him. Maybe something new and exciting that didn't come with her teaching could help her in that area. It's just something to think about.

 

[Sqoodd]

_____I need time to process all of the good information I read here....Be back soon____

 

[Sqoodd]

SweetGigi 10-16-2008, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Homburg
Meh. No offense to the Old Guard, but I don't see it. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but I don't see a need to completely warp my role and do something that I find completely against my grain in order to learn to be a better Top. Not to say that I would not bottom for specific purposes, but that I am not of the opinion that some extended period of service is necessary to be a good Top.

For some PYLs, this is certainly understandable. These PYLs are what I refer to a 'naturals'. However, for those who are not naturally dominant, I think serving some time at the bottom can be beneficial to understand that place and what it takes to not only be there but to put someone else there.

=> I agree with Homburg. I have not been a bottom and do not have the desire to do so. I learned from trial and error as well as listening to the pyl. I would try things that would make it interesting and would not put the pyl in danger. Some worked really well (I can’t wait until I am with another sub) and some did not. And I can see SweetGigi point about the ‘non-naturals’ beginning at the bottom.

 

[Sqoodd]

Netzach 10-16-2008, 12:39 PM
If you mean "should a Top bottom" IMO, yes.

=>IMO, it is up to the Top, but in my case: NO.

Netzach 10-16-2008, 12:39 PM
I have a better sensory understanding of almost all the implements in my arsenal than I would have had I not bottomed a bunch, I have a more gut-level understanding and empathy than I would have had I not when I'm out there destroying an ego erotically - than I would have had I never played my own edges.

=>I can see your point about your arsenal, but you could get that ‘sensory understanding’ by slapping your leg or hitting your other palm. I agree with Sir_Winston54 when he wrote”

“I have used or had used on me certain implements, to better acquaint myself with the sensations they bring, but that was to me a learning experience and not in any way bottoming.”

=>Being a bottom, just to feel what the device can do, is the wrong motivation to be a bottom.

 

[Netzach]

=>IMO, it is up to the Top, but in my case: NO.

=>I can see your point about your arsenal, but you could get that ‘sensory understanding’ by slapping your leg or hitting your other palm. I agree with Sir_Winston54 when he wrote”

=>Being a bottom, just to feel what the device can do, is the wrong motivation to be a bottom.

No.

No you cannot. No more than you can tickle yourself. I am talking about the risk-taking discomfort that comes from putting the control of your experience in someone else's hands. The fact that you think it's the same as hitting your thigh merely demonstrates that you don't know what I'm talking about, any more than a reader is a novelist.

Is your experience going to be identical to a bottom who enjoys that inherently and seeks it out all the time, of course not. But to say "well I can hit myself and get more out of it" is exactly the kind of dismissive attitude that makes me not even want to discuss this issue.

I've done it, you insist you haven't. That makes which of us fit to talk about the validity of it? I am sick to death of people who won't touch bottoming as strategy with a ten foot pole holding forth pronouncements on it. It's like poverty policy experts who live in gated communities.

If you have decided it's a worthless and pointless endeavor based on having done it that's another story, then we simply beg to differ. I think it had its good and bad points and its upside is always dismissed by people who don't actually do it.

 

[CutieMouse]

No.

No you cannot. No more than you can tickle yourself. I am talking about the risk-taking discomfort that comes from putting the control of your experience in someone else's hands. The fact that you think it's the same as hitting your thigh merely demonstrates that you don't know what I'm talking about, any more than a reader is a novelist.

Exactly. Because as someone who has done the painfully LDR/tormented-by-proxy thing, as well as the [very rare] tormented-in-person thing... the former is a cute little gecko; the latter a deliciously wicked dragon.

Or as I've commented to a friend on occasion - I do believe I am kinder to my little pink bits than others would be... self-preservation and all that.

 

[Sqoodd]

No.

No you cannot. No more than you can tickle yourself. I am talking about the risk-taking discomfort that comes from putting the control of your experience in someone else's hands. The fact that you think it's the same as hitting your thigh merely demonstrates that you don't know what I'm talking about, any more than a reader is a novelist.

Is your experience going to be identical to a bottom who enjoys that inherently and seeks it out all the time, of course not. But to say "well I can hit myself and get more out of it" is exactly the kind of dismissive attitude that makes me not even want to discuss this issue.

I've done it, you insist you haven't. That makes which of us fit to talk about the validity of it? I am sick to death of people who won't touch bottoming as strategy with a ten foot pole holding forth pronouncements on it. It's like poverty policy experts who live in gated communities.

If you have decided it's a worthless and pointless endeavor based on having done it that's another story, then we simply beg to differ. I think it had its good and bad points and its upside is always dismissed by people who don't actually do it.

You can make any decision you want, but putting yourself in “someone else’s hand” is a personal choice. You make that decision in the opposite direction than I will.
You are right, I do not understand why someone would go against their very nature, but since you told us earlier I know why you did.
I just disagree with you. And still respect you.