Trust and Honesty...opinions please

[A Desert Rose]

thank you Shadowsdream and Eb

~~~~~~~I do want to say that I don't take full blame, anymore than I fully blame him for this failure. Neither of us really knew what we were doing. We failed each other.

But I am on a quest to learn from my mistakes. And that makes all the difference.

Rose

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: thank you Shadowsdream and Eb

~~~~~~~I do want to say that I don't take full blame, anymore than I fully blame him for this failure. Neither of us really knew what we were doing. We failed each other.

But I am on a quest to learn from my mistakes. And that makes all the difference.

Rose

EXACTLY

 

[cymbidia]

Re: Re: a feeble attempt

Hey, 1 1/2 years later I am still listening. It is not a love match, at least not in the conventional sense, in that he and I are not lovers, but he and I are closer that many who claim to be lovers.

We cannot help but be closer then so many who claim to be lovers, we who open our souls to another, the barriers completely lowered and our fears held out in the palms of our hands. It is that incredible and almost indescrible intensity of realness that so many of us crave, that causes us to take such chances when opening up to those who hurt us instead of cherishing us gently, Eb, as you did.

I am 1.5 months - only a month and a half - into what is becoming an incredibly central relationship in my life. It began between us as matched kinks, as body heat and mind passion, though were upfront and honest about wanting, eventually, a permanent and deeply meaningful real BDSM pairing - with someone. We're both experienced lifestylers and we knew the score, knew what to do with each other and how to do it. We knew all the whens and wheres and whys, too. We'd both been there, done that, a bunch.

At the beginning he told me to be open, and explained that tenderness and caring would come but trust and honesty had to precede them. And so i began to open. I began with little bits at a time, and the opeing process is still ongoing, of course.

He's remained stalwartly trustworthy. He's not told me any lies. He does and is as he claims. He listens. He's made it impossible for me to run and hide, emotionally, and he's cultivated an atmosphere of acceptance while urging me to open wider and farther.

I trust him. I'm already open wide enough to be hurt by him, but i trust that he will not do that to me. We're at the heady beginning of that most wonderful of feedback loops, the place where trust begets truth which fosters more trust, on and on.

In a year and a half, Eb, i hope he's still listening. I trust that he will be. I know that he will be. I think ours will be a love match by then, though, a match made stronger for the power exchange reality that will permeates every facet of our lives together. (Like most subs, i'm not capable of not falling in love with my dominant. I think it's something in our wiring.)

 

[A Desert Rose]

thank you, Cym

Your words make a great deal of sense, especially in the context of my previous relationship, I see many correlations.

Rose

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: a feeble attempt

We cannot help but be closer then so many who claim to be lovers, we who open our souls to another, the barriers completely lowered and our fears held out in the palms of our hands. It is that incredible and almost indescrible intensity of realness that so many of us crave, that causes us to take such chances when opening up to those who hurt us instead of cherishing us gently, Eb, as you did.

I am 1.5 months - only a month and a half - into what is becoming an incredibly central relationship in my life. It began between us as matched kinks, as body heat and mind passion, though were upfront and honest about wanting, eventually, a permanent and deeply meaningful real BDSM pairing - with someone. We're both experienced lifestylers and we knew the score, knew what to do with each other and how to do it. We knew all the whens and wheres and whys, too. We'd both been there, done that, a bunch.

At the beginning he told me to be open, and explained that tenderness and caring would come but trust and honesty had to precede them. And so i began to open. I began with little bits at a time, and the opeing process is still ongoing, of course.

He's remained stalwartly trustworthy. He's not told me any lies. He does and is as he claims. He listens. He's made it impossible for me to run and hide, emotionally, and he's cultivated an atmosphere of acceptance while urging me to open wider and farther.

I trust him. I'm already open wide enough to be hurt by him, but i trust that he will not do that to me. We're at the heady beginning of that most wonderful of feedback loops, the place where trust begets truth which fosters more trust, on and on.

In a year and a half, Eb, i hope he's still listening. I trust that he will be. I know that he will be. I think ours will be a love match by then, though, a match made stronger for the power exchange reality that will permeates every facet of our lives together. (Like most subs, i'm not capable of not falling in love with my dominant. I think it's something in our wiring.)

sissy and bitchboy are special. But aren't all subs special to their Dom/mes?

 

[Lancecastor]

I suggest....

....that *any* relationship (vanilla, bdsm, business, family, whatever) that doesn't include honesty and trust as cornerstones is more likely to fail than one that does.

To suggest that BDSM relationships somehow place higher priority than other relationships on trust & honesty is simply erroneous and is narrow, exclusive thinking.

Failed relationships all carry a price tag; BDSM is no better or worse in this regard.

Lance

~gently~ Darlin', if the dom/me isn't willing or capable of encouraging honesty between him/herself and you then you've got a nilla relationship playing at being BDSM, not a BDSM relationship.

The amount of focus and effort and acceptance and daily energy it takes to be honest, dom/me to sub and sub back to dom/me, is enormous. It's not something one can do on the weekend or when one is in the mood. It's not something, i believe, that one can do over vast distances for long periods of time.

If the dom/me doesn't make you and what you bring - your honesty - a priority in his/her life, then you're being cheated. If you stay, accepting the glitter of the kink instead the golden reality of a BDSM relationship, then you're contributing to the fraud of your reality.

If what you want is kinky sex and playing at being BDSM'ers, then so be it. There's nothing in the world wrong with that. Lots and lots and people do it every day and it makes them very happy.

If what you want, though, is the intensity of a fully realized BDSM power-exchange relationship, then it comes with a price - and that price is honesty. If you can't give it, if it isn't of value to you partner, if you aren't sure you're getting it, then you have to walk away. The relatinoship is not what you want, after all, and you'll never make each other happy.

From the inside of a strong power-exchange relationship, life is easy. One is loved and cared for. One is heard. One's needs are met. There are problems and issues and cares and concerns, yes, but they're dealt with as they arise - and then harmony is restored and the journey of intensity continues.

Real BDSM relationships are built entirely of honesty and trust.
Without those, and they are really the same thing, there is nothing of value that can exist.

 

[Quint]

cym, I read so much of myself--and who I want to be, and how I'd express that if I could find the words--in your posts. As always, thank you.

I especially relate to your 1.5 month relationship. That's about how long T and I have been talking, and I see all sorts of parallels: similar desires, similar experiences, a deep and abiding respect and trust that is slowly being nurtured into something very rewarding.

But I think that the trust came in from the non-BDSM side. As my friend, before I ever considered him as a lover, let alone my Dom, I was open with him about my life and desires and dreams. That's where we first established our rapport, and that is what has continued to push us beyond kinky kids. We have shared beauty. We have confided our most personal, most precious wishes. If I can trust him with my emotions like that, I know my body is in the best of hands.

I'm still at the hesitant "I know I should just be ME, dammit, but I so very much want to make you happy" stage...but he knows and understands this, and he is slowly taking me out of that and into the "everything you do pleases me because it is YOU" world that we belong in. I too am investing a lot more of myself into him and into our relationship than I originally intended, and I know that if it were his intention to hurt me, he could very easily do so. I trust that he won't. And he trusts the same from me--emotionally, we are and always will be equals.

 

[P. B. Walker]

Re: I suggest....

....that *any* relationship (vanilla, bdsm, business, family, whatever) that doesn't include honesty and trust as cornerstones is more likely to fail than one that does.

To suggest that BDSM relationships somehow place higher priority than other relationships on trust & honesty is simply erroneous and is narrow, exclusive thinking.

Failed relationships all carry a price tag; BDSM is no better or worse in this regard.

Lance

That is an excellent point! I couldn't agree more.

PBW

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: I suggest....

That is an excellent point! I couldn't agree more.

PBW

In my opinion, people may want honesty and truth, but they are rewarded for lying and subtefuge.

Isn't that that dating is all about? Hiding who you are?

Eb

 

[li'a-wahine]

Oh my goodness EB that is so true....but its been so long since I dated I have forgotten!!! lol

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: Re: I suggest....

In my opinion, people may want honesty and truth, but they are rewarded for lying and subtefuge.

Isn't that that dating is all about? Hiding who you are?

Eb

I think the trick is to rise above that stuff and tell it like it is.

There's a book entitled "Radical Honesty" that's worth a read.

Lance

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I suggest....

I think the trick is to rise above that stuff and tell it like it is.

There's a book entitled "Radical Honesty" that's worth a read.

Lance

I have found in my forays into the land of vanilla, that trick is usually too hard for many to rise above.

Ebony

 

[SexyChele]

For me, trust and honesty are cyclical and like the layers of an onion. You begin with the very basics of honesty, and that developes a basic foundation of trust. This trust allows you to peel back another layer of honesty, which, hopefully, will further and broaden that foundation of trust already established. And on and on it goes, the layers being peeled back and revealed. Trust being given as each layer is revealed and accepted without question.

I do believe a Dom/me has the harder job! To constantly keep the lines of communication open, to assure the sub that is alright to reveal her/himself, creating an environment where openess and honesty can begin to be revealed. Not a job I would want, but one I respect when I see it in Dom/mes!

While I would agree with cym that this is not necessarily something that can be attained over distance and time, it is not always true. It is harder, yes. And it takes much, much longer! I have a very close friend who I've only known from being online. I've never met him, don't know that I ever will, yet I trust him completely emotionally. We've both been honest with each other, shared in other's good times, been there to talk (both online and on the phone) when we were each going through tough times, and argued and fought about misunderstandings and miscommunications. It can happen. But then, I've known this man for almost 1 1/2 years. It can happen, but it does take a whole lot longer!


Eb, dating can be about hiding oneself, yes. And those are usually the relationships that fail - miserably. I have to agree with Lance - BDSMers have no real corner on honesty and trust. Though, I will admit that, having recently begun the steps into a BDSM relationship, we are more honest more quickly than those in the 'nilla world.

However, if two people want any type of relationship to go to the serious stage, they need to be honest with each other and develop trust. It may happen more quickly within a BDSM relationship, but it does in the vanilla world as well.

And let us not forget that not all Dom/mes and subs practice the fine arts of honesty and trust. How many subs here have been hurt - badly - because they gave their trust to a Dom who then turned around and abused them? In a vanilla dating relationship, if you discover dishonesty and mistrust, you walk away with broken heart. In a BDSM relationship gone sour, you may get away with some serious injuries - both emotional and physical.

Honesty and trust are foundations of any long-lasting relationship, regardless of the level of kink involved. (Well, unless it is only a one night stand, and hell, anything goes with those!)

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: I suggest....

....that *any* relationship (vanilla, bdsm, business, family, whatever) that doesn't include honesty and trust as cornerstones is more likely to fail than one that does.

To suggest that BDSM relationships somehow place higher priority than other relationships on trust & honesty is simply erroneous and is narrow, exclusive thinking.

Failed relationships all carry a price tag; BDSM is no better or worse in this regard.

Lance

~~~~~~~~~~I am pretty certain that no one here would disagree with your post Lance, however the discussion was about a D/s relationship- or what I thought was one, since many of the posts referred to my post. Therefore, that is the context in which the posts were made.

Vanilla, licorace, peppermint sticks........ doesn't matter. It's all the same and you are correct. If there is no trust and honesty, they will all eventually fail.

Rose

 

[Ebonyfire]

I LOVE your analogy of an onion. It is perfect!

And you will not get any argument from me when you say "Honesty and trust are foundations of any long-lasting relationship, regardless of the level of kink involved. "

All of the successful relationships I know of have this in common. My point was that dating practices have not been useful in fostering an atmosphere of trust and honesty.

Maybe that is changing now. I am not sure.

Eb

 

[SexyChele]

I LOVE your analogy of an onion. It is perfect!

And you will not get any argument from me when you say "Honesty and trust are foundations of any long-lasting relationship, regardless of the level of kink involved. "

All of the successful relationships I know of have this in common. My point was that dating practices have not been useful in fostering an atmosphere of trust and honesty.

Maybe that is changing now. I am not sure.

Eb

Funny how your compliments bring a blush to my cheeks! Thank you!

I do have to admit that there is a good deal more honesty and "truth-seeking" when talking to potential Doms (on average), then when dealing with most men in the 'nilla world. The first few times I met with potential Doms I was taken back by their questions, yet they made me feel so comfortable, I really didn't hesitate to answer. (These were just basic questions, btw) It does take a little getting used to, but I like it! And when I've told a couple of really close girlfriends, they told me they wished there was such honesty in the vanilla world, too. Guess there are a few things worth learnin'!

 

[Lancecastor]

A Real Man...

The first few times I met with potential Doms I was taken back by their questions, yet they made me feel so comfortable, I really didn't hesitate to answer.

....can do that to a woman, regardless of BDSM or not.

I believe a vanilla guy can conduct himself with straightforwardness, integrity, honesty and strength of character sufficient to produce the response/effect you refer to above.

It's not BDSM-exclusive.

Separate issues, in my view.

Lance

 

[MissTaken]

Yes, you can find honesty in a vanilla world.

It is no less important than in the BDSM world. The risks are different, but do exist.

However, one has to be honest with themselves on many levels before being able to offer that honesty to another.

I don't agree that honesty takes time to develop. Being honest is an act that can start and should start from the first contact. I am an honest person, always.

It is trust that needs to be nurtured and fed with honesty.

The two cannot exist without the other.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Trust takes time. Honesty does not.

Rose

 

[SexyChele]

Lance, had you read my earlier post, you would find that I do not disagree with you in the least. Being relatively new to the whole BDSM way of life, I just have more experience with dating. And there are very few guys out there who, when the thought that they might just make a speedy entry into a ladies panties enters their heads, will lie to acheive their objective. Yes, it is also done in BDSM circles as well. But most Doms that I've met (and this is only personal experience, here), are willing to wait before playing. Lots of vanilla guys exit stage right if they figure out they ain't "gettin' any". (And, yes, I do know there are few nice ones out there - I've had the pleasure of meeting them!)



Miss T, yes, honesty begins at the beginning. Trust may seem longer to establish, but honesty is something that is continually worked at. People get to a point where trust is there, it's established. Honesty is something you need to do day in, day out. And sometimes, it can be a conscientous decision - depending on the issue involved.

But I do believe honesty, complete honesty, does take time. Maybe not for everyone. Maybe it's just one of my weird little quirks. I am an honest person, yes. But I don't meet some one right out of the gate and tell them absolutely everything there is to know about me in 3 hours or less. Being honest - as is required in building trust that allows some one to potentially cause harm to me - takes time.

I'm not talking about the facts of my hair color, political views, height, weight, or past relationships. I'm talking about the inner me, the real me, the only me knows me me. I'm talking about baring my soul to another person who can choose to rip that out and tear it to shreds honesty. No, that type of honest takes time for me. I can't, and don't, reveal that much about me from the first minute I talk to some one. I reveal a little, gain trust. Real a little more, gain a little more trust. Reveal a huge chunk, and jump ahead with trust. Reveal a tiny amount, and get a little more trust. And on and on until I can tell that person, "You know absolutely everything there is to know about and/or that I know about myself."

For me, that takes time. But at the end, I know I can trust the other person with my life.

 

[Lancecastor]

This Is The Title of This Post

Having read your post, and those of the others, I expressed myself.

As I am about to again:

I suggest your quote below is about "disclosure" and not "honesty", as I feel that you are honest in your communications, Chele.

Obviously, safety issues, relative confidence & self esteem....a variety of things....dictate relative levels of disclosure, as trust builds.

That's my take on it.

Lance

But I do believe honesty, complete honesty, does take time.

 

[MissTaken]

Being honest doesn't equate to spilling your guts.

It just means that what you do chose to spill is the truth, that if you chose not share something, you say, "I would rather not discuss this, right now," as opposed to lying.

That is what I was referring to.

Yes, I agree with Lance, honesty and disclosure aren't the same thing.

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: Trust and Honesty...opinions please

Honesty is a goal, a grail, a touchstone living in the exact center of the intersection between who we are (we who are submissive) and who we so fervently wish to be and between who you want (you who are dominant) and who are trying to be.

We tend toward honesty.
We try to be honest.
We succeed and we fail - and we keep trying.

And therein lies the paradoxical nature of our existence at your side: we need to be truthful but we also need to please you. Which need is more important? Can they exist simultaneously - all the time? Which do you value more?

-------------------------
wow! Cym strikes again!! another great post however my own personal thoughts on this subject is as badly as we wanna serve our Masters,if we do NOTBE honest with them ,no matter what ,then not only are we presenting them with a "dishonest" sub ,but we are lying to ourselves as well..

We do NEED to please them yes,but only in Truth,if we do so falsely,we have deprived our Master of a great gift indeed,not only Our submission but His/Her Trust in us to be honest..
Master wants for me to be honest with Him in all things ,if I am not,then I would be slowly chipping away at onne of the "cornerstones " of our relationship.....trust is the thing that is worked upon ..either you are an honest person going in to the relationship,or you are not..everyone does make mistakes tho..

 

[NemoAlia]

It's hard, when I arrive late to a thread like this, to choose which parts of it to respond to. However, I refuse to give up entirely, so here goes!

cym wrote, "Trust and honesty are interwoven from the same silken spider's web. They belong together and are never found one without the other within our kind of relationships. They're the proverbial two halves of the same coin."

This phrase has been echoed in many different forms throughout this thread. However, I figure I might as well stir things up by suggesting that the this is not necessarily true:

In my opinion, honesty is often (99 times out of 100?) the best way to prove one's untrustworthiness. For example, if I were developing a relationship with someone and he said, honestly, "I do not consider our relationship to be valuable enough to sacrifice any of my television time," I would not trust him with my heart. His honesty would have broken my trust. (There are several less weightless examples I could give, but I figure this makes sense as a basic example.)

Thus, honesty can exist without trust. In fact, sometimes it seems like the world would be a better place if we separated the two more often, allowing honesty to enter relationships at the earliest possible moment, so that we don't end up allowing trust to grow before we know the truths upon which it ought to be based. Otherwise, we end up discovering that we've put down roots in shallow sand.

Of course, if this sand/soil analogy were perfect, we would not be able to "put down roots" where there was only "shallow sand" to nourish and support them. Trust would not grow without honesty and the truths it reveals. However, humans are interesting creatures: we can build trust in someone even when we shouldn't. As long as we don't know that our trust is unfounded, it continues to grow -- even without honesty on the other person's behalf. Only when we discover the truth does our trust cease to support us. (For example, a marriage that goes along swimmingly until someone discovers that her spouse has been having an affair. She trusted him even without his honesty -- but the honesty ended the trust.) In cases like these, trust can exist only without honesty, and honesty can exist only without trust.

Ideally, we will all find someone with whom we can have both. Hopefully, we will be able to keep them. However, often it seems that, too often, trust and honesty are mutually exclusive.

 

[cymbidia]

Most Doms that I've met (and this is only personal experience, here), are willing to wait before playing.

This is what i think, too, though i don't have any real experience to speak of with regard to dating nillas. I just don't do it, and haven't in more than 20 years.




While honesty and trust are the cornerstones of all good human relationships, i suspect they play a more obvious and upfront role in BDSM relationships. We talk about those things, all of us, in all of our relationships. We actively seek them. We don't take them for granted or disregard them as something expected. We seek them out, honesty and trust, with the intensity of people whose safty and pleasure depend on them being in place and tended to in a forthright manner.

Of course all good human relationships require honesty and trust. such a statement is self-evident. However, inside a BDSM relationship, they are accorded a place of dedication not usually given them in a (probably) a majority of non-BDSM relationships. They are taken out, honesty and trust, and examined and flexed and caressed in a way that simply doesn't happen routinely in other kinds of human relationships . They are almost ritualized in BDSM relationships. That's simply notr so in non-BDSM relationships, for all that they are present there, too, in some form or another.

We ritualize honesty and trust.
They are sacred attributes to us.
In other kinds of human relationships, these attributes are not used as we use use them, not viewed in the same way that we see them, not preeminent in the way that they are preeminent to us.

Neither way is inherently better or worse but they are, indeed, different. To say they are not is to be blind to the reality of our kind of human interaction and the priorities we place on the manner in which we interact with each other.


Edited to add that i know dishonest and untrustworthy BDSM'ers exist. I think - no proof - that if they are real lifestylers and not just players (i.e., look at me, MasterMachoDom! I'm wonderful! Bow to me! Now get down on your knees and suck my cock, slutslavewhore!) they are less prevalent as a proportion of the population then are players of the non-BDSM lifestyle ilk. In other words, there are dishonest people everywhere. I maintain, based on no proof but a lifetime of dealing witrh BDSM'ers, that there are less of them among us then there are in the general population as a whole, proportionally speaking.