Trust and Honesty...opinions please

[Lancecastor]

I beg to differ.

....i don't have any real experience to speak of with regard to dating nillas. I just don't do it, and haven't in more than 20 years.


In other kinds of human relationships, these attributes are not used as we use use them, not viewed in the same way that we see them, not preeminent in the way that they are preeminent to us.

I beg to differ with your position.

Trust & Honesty are completely independant of sexual practises.

Granted, your experience over the past two decades is limited to but one p.o.v.....but surely you understand that Trust & Honesty are highly revered and considered sacred in places other than BDSM communities, yes?

Lance

 

[MissTaken]

NemoAlia?

IN the situation you described, you have shown that trust can exist without honesty.

However, I would suggest that in a healthy relationship, the two are necessary and interwoven pieces,

In the situation you described, I would much rather know that television is more important than I am. Then, I have a choice to make based on facts, rather than being mislead and hurt by lies in the future.

Hmm my thoughts wander....

 

[cymbidia]

In the situation you described, I would much rather know that television is more important than I am. Then, I have a choice to make based on facts, rather than being mislead and hurt by lies in the future.

There will always be specific exceptions to general rules. I still maintain that within the bonds of healthy BDSM relationships, trust and honesty "are interwoven from the same silken spider's web. They belong together and are never found one without the other...the proverbial two halves of the same coin."

There will always be those for whom the concept of hnorable interaction with thier partner doesn't seem to be high on the priority list, BDSM'er or not. For every one bad guy, though, i believe that there are many more who adhere to the dictum of trust and honesty being necessary, crucial actually, for the evolution of intimate relationships, BDSM style.

Honor lives and flourishes among our kind.
Trust and truth are still the coin in our realm.
A person's word is still of immense value.

I like inhabiting such a world.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: I beg to differ.

I beg to differ with your position.

Trust & Honesty are completely independant of sexual practises.

Granted, your experience over the past two decades is limited to but one p.o.v.....but surely you understand that Trust & Honesty are highly revered and considered sacred in places other than BDSM communities, yes?

Lance

Yes, it's called ethics.
Rose

 

[Shadowsdream]

Rose

(~~~~~~~I do want to say that I don't take full blame, anymore than I fully blame him for this failure. Neither of us really knew what we were doing. We failed each other. )

you are already on the raod to success when you recognize where failure may have come from.

There is no easy way to learn this lifestyle and it takes a great deal of trial and error in a new relationship when both are beginning the journey at the same time.

you have begun the quest for a deeper knowledge that will make you much more aware what will be the safest, sensual and committed for you.

 

[zipman]

Another Opinion

I don't believe that trust and honesty are any more prevalent in the BDSM world than elsewhere. I think they are just different - it all depends on the people and the context for the relationship.

For example, a sub may not tell her Dom something because she feels that it may disappoint him. She wants to please him so she doesn't say anything that she feels may interfere with his pleasure. Isn't this the way that boundaries are pushed, and new desires sometimes brought to life? A Dom may not be truthful with a sub because of timing. A sub (female) asks a Dom if he wants other women involved in their relationhip. He say's no, even though he does, because he doesn't feel that she is ready for it. He waits until the timing is right - maybe her level of trust is greater, or the thought of another woman doesn't threaten her.

We, as a community, have very recently witnessed lies and deceit hurt one of us. The misrepresentation that we saw is human nature - the ugly side of it. Similarly, there are many nilla that make choices that are based on trust where the end result is just as dangerous if not more so. A woman asks her boyfriend how many drinks he has had before she gets in the car to drive home. She is trusting him to answer honestly so that she can make a decision that directly impacts her safety. Is this not more important than trusting someone not to spank you too hard?

I think it is. I think we could all use more honesty and more trust in our lives - BDSM or not.

 

[Shadowsdream]

(There will always be specific exceptions to general rules. I still maintain that within the bonds of healthy BDSM relationships, trust and honesty "are interwoven from the same silken spider's web. They belong together and are never found one without the other...the proverbial two halves of the same coin." )

I believe the *key* word here could be *healthy*

Which is what W/we are all striving for. Healthy BDSM relationships built upon trust and honesty. 'nilla relationships are not the topic for We do not need to hold one up against the other to validate the lifestyle We have chosen for Our happiness.

Honesty should never be expected to cross the line of stupidity where privacy becomes a personal exposure that offers nothing to the relationship but facts not necessary for the strength or growth in a budding relationship.

Small example might be: When I was 12 I was gang raped by 3 drunk teenagers. In My opinion this FACT kept to oneself in the early stages of a D/s relationship is a matter of raw privacy and should only be shared inside of a committed D/s relationship where the trust has already been gained.

When the trust has a foundation and the relationship reaches a real depth that both feel will become more than occassional play this above FACT must be disclosed to enable understanding of why some things trigger certain unhealthy reactions in My opinion.

opinions?

 

[zipman]

(There will always be specific exceptions to general rules. I still maintain that within the bonds of healthy BDSM relationships, trust and honesty "are interwoven from the same silken spider's web. They belong together and are never found one without the other...the proverbial two halves of the same coin." )

I believe the *key* word here could be *healthy*

Which is what W/we are all striving for. Healthy BDSM relationships built upon trust and honesty. 'nilla relationships are not the topic for We do not need to hold one up against the other to validate the lifestyle We have chosen for Our happiness.

Honesty should never be expected to cross the line of stupidity where privacy becomes a personal exposure that offers nothing to the relationship but facts not necessary for the strength or growth in a budding relationship.

Small example might be: When I was 12 I was gang raped by 3 drunk teenagers. In My opinion this FACT kept to oneself in the early stages of a D/s relationship is a matter of raw privacy and should only be shared inside of a committed D/s relationship where the trust has already been gained.

When the trust has a foundation and the relationship reaches a real depth that both feel will become more than occassional play this above FACT must be disclosed to enable understanding of why some things trigger certain unhealthy reactions in My opinion.

opinions?

I agree with you but I would make the distinction that was raised earlier about not confusing honesty with disclosure. Are you dishonest for waiting to tell someone something? I would say absolutely not. In your example, it is a matter of comfort before you decide to tell shomeone.

Let's use a different example. You meet someone that you like. You begin talking about sexual preferences. You have an STD but are unsure when to raise it. If the other person asks you and you say no, that IS dishonest. If the other person doesn't ask you and you decide to lay together and you don't say say anything, that is unethical. If you tell them when you know you want to be with that person, then it is an honest disclosure.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Zip

Agreed honesty is not disclosure...

 

[A Desert Rose]

Small example might be: When I was 12 I was gang raped by 3 drunk teenagers. In My opinion this FACT kept to oneself in the early stages of a D/s relationship is a matter of raw privacy and should only be shared inside of a committed D/s relationship where the trust has already been gained.

When the trust has a foundation and the relationship reaches a real depth that both feel will become more than occassional play this above FACT must be disclosed to enable understanding of why some things trigger certain unhealthy reactions in My opinion.

opinions?

Absolutely this kind of information should be disclosed when a relationship has progressed into a committed one. All our past experiences color our present reality. No question that something as violent and severe as rape, colors things in a major way, but many minor things do also.

I never disclose unless I am specifically asked and then only to people I feel a degree of trust in. That is based primarily on past experiences online. It's a safety issue on my part. I do withhold, and I rarely volunteer information but I won't lie if asked something specific.

Building trust is a slow steady climb, for both partners. The more trust that developes, the more can be disclosed, slowly and gradually. And therein lies my biggest fear- getting to a place where I can bare all to another.

Rose

 

[Shadowsdream]

Rose

(And therein lies my biggest fear- getting to a place where I can bare all to another. )

Magic has a way of exploding from a direction that you seldom expect.

I am watching you grow before My very eyes as you begin to trust your own voice. It pleases Me to have you join the journey of these threads meant to test reality.

 

[cymbidia]

Let's use a different example. You meet someone that you like. You begin talking about sexual preferences. You have an STD but are unsure when to raise it. If the other person asks you and you say no, that is not dishonest.

With all due respect, zipman, i cannot see how saying No, i do not have an STD when you do can possibly be seen as anything but dishonest. A lie. And a lie about an important subject, too.

I understand the difference between disclosure and truth, the juxtaposition between honesty and disclosure - but i don't see how saying I do not have an STD is anything but a lie when one is asked that directly and, in fact, one does have STD. Even in the very early stages of a relationshgip, before there is any physical intimacy, such is a lie. If it came out later, when intimacy was desired, that we had to be careful because there was that STD to consider, i would feel terribly hurt and confused and lied to.

Perhaps if it's a treatable STD, one that will entirely disappear, and one has had the treatment for it already, then such a lie could maybe be uttered. By the time intimacy arrived, the disease would be gone, hoepfully. However, all of us have a right to hear about a potential partner's health history before we play, a history that most assuredly includes any and all bruses with STD's. To lie about such matters is to doom the relationship from the beginning, to my way of thinking.

It is not my intention to attack you, not at all. I hope you don't feel that way. I only need to ask for clarification on this lie-that's-not-a-lie. I don't understand your meaning, i suppose.

Disclosure vs truth:
With new-to-me people, i tell them about my first dominant, the one who first saw in me the potential for submission and who first trained me in the ways of this lifestlye. I was 15.

I do not disclose to new-to-me people, not easily or quickly, that i married him, my Master, when i was a few days over 18 - against my parents wishes - and when his buisness began to fail, he began to beat the shit out of me. Then i left. I was almost 19.

I don't disclose to anyone, really, except those to whom i am incredibly close, where i went from there and who i became for the next few years.

So i understand truth vs. disclosure.
But i don't understand lying about an STD.
Maybe your STD is my marriage/getting beat up within the auspisces of it being a BDSM relationship?

 

[Lancecastor]

Clearly a lie.

Got another example, Zipman? That one was easy.

Plus, I get to agree on something with Cym!

Lance "Synchophant In Training" Castor

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: A Real Man...

....can do that to a woman, regardless of BDSM or not.

I believe a vanilla guy can conduct himself with straightforwardness, integrity, honesty and strength of character sufficient to produce the response/effect you refer to above.

It's not BDSM-exclusive.

Separate issues, in my view.

Lance

BUT, you are not rewarded for it, and that is MY point!

The mating/dating dance fosters an atmosphere of bullshit.

It is usually up to the individual to step up to the plate and rise above the bullshit. Some do, and some don't.

Now I shall invoke my age here. I have been single all my life. And I have been dating from the age of 16.

At the age of 52, I am hearing the same old lies on the dating scene, that I heard when I was 16.

But, sprinkled in that there are been some truth and honesty.

I have been lied to in D/s and in Vanilla.

If an individual is a liar and untrustworthy, it will not matter if he/she is a Dom/me or vanilla.

If a person has integrityand is truthful, it will not matter what the flavor is.

You choose to lie. You choose to tell the truth. You chose to be trustworthy; just like you choose to betray that trust. Motive and intention is everything.

Just my opinion.

Eb

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: A Real Man...

If an individual is a liar and untrustworthy, it will not matter if he/she is a Dom/me or vanilla.

If a person has integrityand is truthful, it will not matter what the flavor is.

You choose to lie. You choose to tell the truth. You chose to be trustworthy; just like you choose to betray that trust. Motive and intention is everything.

Just my opinion.

Eb

~~~~~~~~Absolutely, Eb. It comes down to ethics and integrity, regardless of your style choice.

I think it's much harder to fool people online than many think. One can throw out the buzz words, write a doctoral thesis for a post and bullshit all day long, but insincerity and immaturity and just plain meanness, will shine through.

And it is all about choices, as Eb says. Most of us are big, grownups; we will suffer or revel in the decisions we make. And we might hurt people in the process. Those of us who are ethical, will USUALLY hurt others *less* often and make amends *more* often.

Just another opinion peice, MINE.

Rose

 

[Lancecastor]

Agreed...

.....Eb & ADR....character and integrity are qualities separate from sexuality.

Having been raised to turn the other cheek while also keeping my chin up and shoulders square, I sometimes err in letting people tread on me perhaps more than I should...and sometimes in swatting those who piss in my cornflakes with too much added gusto.

But, in the end, we are known not just by our values, but our actions, so we cant help but appear as diamonds to others....and depending on which facet one looks at us through, one might see only the flaws, or only pure light.

The trick is, I think, to take the time to look through many facets of others, then step back and see others in toto.

Cheers;

Lance

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Agreed...

.....Eb & ADR....character and integrity are qualities separate from sexuality.

But, in the end, we are known not just by our values, but our actions, so we cant help but appear as diamonds to others....and depending on which facet one looks at us through, one might see only the flaws, or only pure light.

Cheers;

Lance

Well yes, indeed, I agree. However, actions are motivated by values such as intergrity and ethics and humanity. And no matter what you say, babydoll, those values will shine through the typed word. You will be eventually found out for the kind of person you are ...... didn't take me long to figure you out, hon or EB or others here whom I respect and whose opinions I value.

And is it written that we have to talk only about topics that pertain to bdsm and sexuality? Yes, these are values seperate from sex, but they are also a very important part of a sexual and/or romantic relationship.

There ya go big dog ---- bounce the ball back or go dribble in your corner. LMAO

Rose

 

[~Dream~]

being truthful

(.

Honesty should never be expected to cross the line of stupidity where privacy becomes a personal exposure that offers nothing to the relationship but facts not necessary for the strength or growth in a budding relationship.

Small example might be: When I was 12 I was gang raped by 3 drunk teenagers. In My opinion this FACT kept to oneself in the early stages of a D/s relationship is a matter of raw privacy and should only be shared inside of a committed D/s relationship where the trust has already been gained.

When the trust has a foundation and the relationship reaches a real depth that both feel will become more than occassional play this above FACT must be disclosed to enable understanding of why some things trigger certain unhealthy reactions in My opinion.

opinions?

very much into the beginning of our relationship I told Master about the fact that I was raped several years ago ..and why did I choose to do it so soon into our relationship? because from the get-go I wanted Him to know who I Really was and what He was getting Himself into...lots of "emotional baggage" if you will..
I am Very honest even about the 'personal' stuff like that cause it gives me a greater "feel' if I am really gonna be accepted by this person "unconditionally"..This is Important to ME but may not,I understand work for everyone..honesty has always been the 'best policy" to me tho..

 

[A Desert Rose]

Dream Lady

You made a choice early on, with Artful, that you wanted to make a committment to him. Therefore you felt it important to tell him the truths you felt were neccessary for him to make an informed decision. Good on ya, sweetie. You are a lady of integrity........

Love,
Rose

 

[A Desert Rose]

Lunch is over

I am back to work now, please hold my calls.

Love
Rose

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Dream Lady

You made a choice early on, with Artful, that you wanted to make a committment to him. Therefore you felt it important to tell him the truths you felt were neccessary for him to make an informed decision. Good on ya, sweetie. You are a lady of integrity........

Love,
Rose

Thank-you so much sweet SIS Rose..I try ,God knows I try..lol
Seriously tho I want No part of me to remain hidden from Master,HE shares things with me about His past life as I shall continue to do with Him also..it's all part of OUR journey together..btw ask Lance sometimes why He never posts to ME? does He wanna see me cry? hmmm ..geez lol

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Agreed...

Well yes, indeed, I agree. However, actions are motivated by values such as intergrity and ethics and humanity. And no matter what you say, babydoll, those values will shine through the typed word. You will be eventually found out for the kind of person you are ...... didn't take me long to figure you out, hon or EB or others here whom I respect and whose opinions I value.

And is it written that we have to talk only about topics that pertain to bdsm and sexuality? Yes, these are values seperate from sex, but they are also a very important part of a sexual and/or romantic relationship.

There ya go big dog ---- bounce the ball back or go dribble in your corner. LMAO

Rose

Well I was not talking about sexuality. And for me, I look for truth and honesty in all my dealings with other people.

I just have learned to add a big dose of skepticalism and salt to the mix.

Eb

 

[jewel_GR]

deleted

 

[Ebonyfire]

Interesting thread. Something some not-so-well-meaning people have taught me, is that honesty is contractive and expansive--something like the "whole truth" or intent. If asked a question, they can give truthful answers, yet not reveal their intent. As a recovering alchoholic, i have to evaluate my motives constantly, so it has made me hyper-sensitive to others' motives concerning me.

i have found many people can duck and dodge that self-evaluation while still mouthing the truth, keeping them "honest," yet, not really. If someone asked me if i've had an STD, i could honestly say no...however, that does not reveal if i have been checked, or have had complications of some kind that may be related. So i'm not so sure that truth and honesty are a true basis, by definition, but that maybe motivation is. JMO.

I try not to deal with absolutes. the "whole truth" is a loaded gun in my mind.

That is why I use my instincts as well as taking my time about (some) people. I find that my instincts are very good.

I do not worry about other people's motives, my own keep me busy 24/7. However, being the person I am, I have lots of street smarts, that I find helps me out regularly.

Eb

thanks for posting, and I hope you will continue to do so.

 

[cymbidia]

Interesting thread. Something some not-so-well-meaning people have taught me, is that honesty is contractive and expansive--something like the "whole truth" or intent. If asked a question, they can give truthful answers, yet not reveal their intent. As a recovering alchoholic, i have to evaluate my motives constantly, so it has made me hyper-sensitive to others' motives concerning me.

Honesty is a continuum, then, with a complete utter lies on one end and the stark truth on the other. In between is everything else.

Where do the lies fall when the person telling them has convinced himself that they're true? What about the person bending the truth a bit because it's more humane - or because the "end justifies the means" in his opinion?

Ah! But we're not concerned with those kinds of truths or lies - we're talking interpersonal BDSM style stuff here.

Still...still...stilll jewel has raised a good point. When does telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth become impractical, unnecessary, cruel? When does it become a form of lying?

We all do it. We can decide not to, deliberately, but we still do it, even if it's just in small ways. Maybe being utterly truthful all the time, to everyone isn't something we're capable of sustaining for any long period of time?

Maybe we save our utter truthfulness for only a few people in our lives, for only a couple special people who can pull from us that deep need to be completely open and starkly naked, down into our souls. Maybe that's part of the essence of a healthy BDSM relationships, that willingness - ability - aching - to be so open and honset that it scrapes down into our soul with its rare purity.

I don't know. I've only been open like with two people in my whole life. Maybe we just get people we can be so open with too often in our lives. I hope Tex becomes like that for me.




Hello and it's very good to see you back here again, jewel, and posting. Your thoughts are as logical and sound as i remember them being.