Trust and Honesty...opinions please

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: Manipulation

ADR I don't know if this is what you are after but maybe it'll help.....
He controlled me by using the silent treatment. If I upset him he wouldn't speak to me for days. ...

... When a Dominant has to resort to manipulation to Dominate they are in fact admitting that they do not have a handle on control. It is a very vanilla way to gain control over the "emotions" of another.

Using manipulation to gain control of any emotion or reaction... becomes obvious to also see the laziness of the act. Manipulation can be demoralizing to the manipulated, especially once they recognize the reality of what they are enduring.

...Control takes Honesty for it to be true control.

Once again we are talking about ignoring a sub with no articulated reason. In my mind, that is not any kind of discipline nor is it a true mindfuck... it is pure and simple game playing, manipulation in it's most passive/agressive form. When I have failed in my duty as a submissive, and I am told that I should go contemplate my mistake and will be spoken to again, in His due time, that's one thing. To be ignored and not know why or what I have done to deserve this behavior, is quite another.

Any Dom/me who cannot control a submissive with honesty and forthrightness, is not a Dom/me. He/She is just another insecure human being. People who are insecure in themselves resort to manipulation to get what they want out of others.

Sure is hard to snip quotes by Shadowsdream... every sentence seems to be full of wisdom. ;-D

 

[TigerClaw]

Honesty, Trust, Communication and so many others are so important. Slip on any one and there can be dire consequences if not caught.

Honesty and Trust

A word that speaks volumes that so many never even think about. So easily the single word * honest!* without a thought of the consequences to the subtleties of slight deceptions in the purity of the statement, can pass the lips before they pass the brain.

Honesty has no less importance when it is presented by the Dominant. To mouth the word in insincerety shows Her weakness. Her honesty must be in all things and at all times for it is the strength of Her committment.One digression can bring down Her house of cards.

*******************************************

This is so very true. I dont think it is impossible it is that ppl just dont want to work at regaining it in general. It is easier to dust it under the rug.

"Trust lost is seldom regained."

Lance

 

[TigerClaw]

Re: a feeble attempt

~~~~~It's difficult to be honest, completely honest, at all times. Speaking only for myself and past experiences, I was always afraid that those things I felt I needed to express honestly, would displease. Therefore, I spent a great deal of time saying and doing what I thought would please and to a point, I even had myself convinced that this was truth and honesty. Needless to say, because of this failing on my part, a myriad of things fell apart.

It's a thin line; difficult to walk when as a sub, your goal is to please and submit, and which has been more elequently stated by Cymbidia and Shadow.

If the Dom/me is not willing to encourage honest discourse, is egomaniacal per se, then the sub has no recourse but to be dishonest and fail all concerned.

Does this make any sense to anyone? I am not even sure it makes sense to me.......

Rose

I was going to reply to your post but I read Shadowsdream's and several responses after and find this to be far deeper then I had originally thought.

I would say the Dom sets the tone for how much honesty they want to hear. How can a Dom guide the relationship if he doesnt care about your experiences and what you think? How does that develop trust?

I have heard some Doms say they dont care what the sub thinks and yet want Honesty. How? How does this work? It is not something I can do at least. I have to have that connection and open lines of communication.

How can you help each other grow if you dont listen. Listening will promote Truth in Honesty just by the willingness to know the other person. Yes, the sub does help the Dom grow also. It is a two way street as I see it.

 

[FungiUg]

I find it intriguing that we all say we want and need honesty and trust in our relationships. And yet when I look around, most relationships are founded on a lie.

It's a big lie too. The lie that one person can be everything we ever need in a partner. That lie is called monogamy.

Now before you get all riled up, I'm not claiming that monogamy doesn't work. For some people it does. And yet, for every case I know of where monogamy works, I know at least ten where it doesn't. Where people have affairs, flings, see prostitutes and so on.

And yet our society pushes the whole monogamous concept. As hard as this is to realise, it's one big lie. It is RARE that monogamy works. It is the exception, not the rule.

Perhaps it is an ideal to aim towards? But if so, should we do so at the expense of honesty? Which is the better ideal?

And I have to ask, how many of us (and yes, including myself) have not lied to their partners, to those they theoretically love best about their involvement or lack of involvement with another person? And yes, I include lying by omission.

Honesty is the basis of trust. And yet in all honesty, I think honesty itself is rare. I'm often surprised that we (as a species) manage to make relationships work at all, when we can't even be honest with each other over the basis of those relationships.

So there you go... just a little something to think about.

 

[TigerClaw]

I find your post very interesting. I dont think it is monogamy that is at fault but the peoples choice who get into the relatinships. I am surprised that society is not in more Chaos then it already is. I believe in Monogamy. I was tempted in my 20's to cheat but did not. When I looked at what was driving those feelings it was the disatisfaction of what was going on in the relationship.

I had to learn to discuss and work out problems in a relationship or decide to end it rather then to stray.

But it really was not until my Mid 30's that I really had enough skill to work out the major problems in a relationship. So, how did the generations before us get married at such young ages and make a marrage work. By work I mean being civil to each other and bringing up the kids with the problems we all now know they faced. Cheating. loneliness, emotioinal seperation etc.

Yes the law played a big part in it. But I fear the generations around today dont have the fortitude or skill for that matter to really make a relationship work. Respect, Conformity, Responsibiliyt all had a place in school. These very same words seem to be evil today. Are we lacking or not as skilled as our parents were at these.

I may be in the wrong forum to be stating that I believe in Monogamy. So let the flaming begin, I am sorry if this goes against most peoples grain here.

So there you go... just a little something to think about.

 

[Esclava]

Nothing wrong with monogamy...

I find your post very interesting. I dont think it is monogamy that is at fault but the peoples choice who get into the relatinships.

<snip>I may be in the wrong forum to be stating that I believe in Monogamy. So let the flaming begin, I am sorry if this goes against most peoples grain here.

I have to agree with you, TigerClaw. I don't think monogamy is at fault either. People DO make choices - they reach a crossroad and must decide to cheat or not to cheat (or whatever the decision is). For most, they just do what is easier - at the time - and will face the consequences later.

I have NEVER advocated infidelity. But it's a hard limit for me as it is just somewhere I will not go since my last relationship split. When you realize something is not as you want it to be, it is much healthier and more sane to talk it out - even if it means a break-up - rather than the misunderstandings and lack of communication that can occur without trust and honesty as the cornerstones.

And don't you DARE run! I don't believe you will find anyone on these boards who will hang, draw and quarter you for a monogamistic outlook on life.

Esclava

 

[TigerClaw]

Re: Nothing wrong with monogamy...

Thank You Hon,
I agree. Your post hit home in more ways then one. An agreed break up is better then trying to cover up a decision that is not good or right for the two of you. Once you make that decision and follow through youve just changed the course of the relationship. If it was on shaky ground before it will now be crashing on the rocks.

I have NEVER advocated infidelity. But it's a hard limit for me as it is just somewhere I will not go since my last relationship split. When you realize something is not as you want it to be, it is much healthier and more sane to talk it out - even if it means a break-up - rather than the misunderstandings and lack of communication that can occur without trust and honesty as the cornerstones.

Esclava

 

[TigerClaw]

One addition.

Once a decision has been made that will harm the relationship why even continue. Steps have just been taken to break up and yet the person usually will not say it is over?

That is mind boggling to me.

The only conclusion for the one time I had this happen was for the control as Shadowsdream suggests earlier.

 

[h_i_s]

Very good topic, very well written!

Honesty and trust are true examples of Ying and Yang. Interestingly enough, how honesty and trust can not exist without the other when compared to a D/s or a top/bottom relationship. Can a dominant truley express and embrace their dominance in absence of having a submissive willing to submit to them? Can a submissive truley express and embrace their willingness to submit in serving and obeying and providing pleasure in absence of having a dominant to submit to? Very deep thought provoking post! Bravo.

 

[catalina_francisco]

This thread has much to offer and some might wish to contribute further to the discussion that thrived. and maybe we will have another Shadowsdream sighting.

Catalinahttp://members.home.nl/animation.world/index/dolzz/Dolzz15.gif

 

[catalina_francisco]

Honesty and Trust

Two extremely innocent and unassuming words. Study them. Think about them. Taste them. Inhale them. Devour them. Commit to them if your desires take you past the bedroom games of Domination and submission and into the lifestyle you say you crave. Without one the other cannot exist.
Honesty is the backbone of integrity and tests the vulnerability of a submissive as he or she lays their life completely open at the feet of the Dominant they have chosen to present the gift of their submission to.

A word that speaks volumes that so many never even think about. So easily the single word * honest!* without a thought of the consequences to the subtleties of slight deceptions in the purity of the statement, can pass the lips before they pass the brain.

Honesty has no less importance when it is presented by the Dominant. To mouth the word in insincerety shows Her weakness. Her honesty must be in all things and at all times for it is the strength of Her committment.One digression can bring down Her house of cards.

Another bump some might enjoy, and wish to add to...posted the introductory post, but encourage people to take the time to skim through if time permits.

Catalina

 

[intothewoods]

Interesting thread. I'm making my way through it, but I wanted to note that sometimes honesty is lost because a person has too much bravado to say simply, "I don't know."

 

[MzChrista]

Come back Marlene, wherever you are!

 

[cherokee_dove]

Very recently, He and i sat down and had a long talk; and tried to make our relationship work for us again.

He had always said there are two things to a relationship that HAVE to ALWAYS be there for it to work.

Those two things being: Honesty and Trust.

Well, just a couple of nights ago; His dishonesty in the one and only thing i had ever asked of Him tore us apart forever.

(And yes, i am laying my heart open here)

i had asked of Him one thing for there to ever be a chance of our relationship getting back to what it was. And that was that He told the whore He no longer wanted her coming around visiting(supposedly) and wanted her out of His life. And He had agreed that He would do so that same day.

She is a known troublemaker in the area, and i just felt with her still around; the relationship would never be able to have the closeness again.

To make a long story short, phone call came in, and i heard Him in the background at a mutual friends house; and then i heard HER also. Only way she could have gotten there was by Him.

The one who called me verified that He had brought her with Him.

At that point, i just told the friend who called me; to relay to Him three words right then and there. "t"(me) says Goodbye."

If Honesty Becomes Lies, Then Trust Is Lost Forever.

 

[faeriefire]

OMG, this post is amazing. I'm relatively new and feel like I don't even deserve to be here with your great minds, but I just had a really wonderful experience with honesty and trust and thought, well, I'll share anyway.

Growing up I could not admit to myself that my sexuality was a part of me. I did not recognize the needs inside, struggling to break free, and this was affirmed by those around me, parents, teachers, friends, Church. Only now am I beginning to be honest with myself. It is hard, but also feels like finally fitting in my own skin as is destined to be.

In my family I saw a breakdown of trust. And I knew that I could not trust my own parents with honesty in certain cases. Because I saw others try to be honest and they were shunned, criticized, pushed away and called 'judgemental'. When I tried to be honest with them I forgot the importance of responsibility, of thinking how words can hurt another. Communication is a two-way street. Trying to be honest with someone about things that hurt can rebound and destroy a relationship, but so too can having to hide or repress feelings in fear of rejection.

It is hard for me to trust another with myself, just as sometimes it is hard to look at myself and accept the person I am with flaws and all. But I did. And He accepted what I said and held me closer instead of pushing me away. His honesty about His past fed the compulsion to tell everything about myself. Because He was honest I took a risk and the reward: acceptance without measure and a promise to protect and nurture all that I am.

And it is glorious, absolutely transcendental to know you are loved for yourself. There will be a lot of work and more hard conversations in the future. But where honesty is pursued, cherished and nurtured great things really do happen.

There will probably be times I mess up and have to ask forgiveness, but I know if I am honest with myself and with Him, my trust will not be abused or exploited. Honesty breeds honesty. Trust builds when affirmed by actions and words. And broken trust can only mend if both sides are willing to talk through the hurt and find common ground on which to rebuild. Rebuilding I think starts with full demolition...trying to shore up a shaky building just puts a patch on the problem. The next earthquake will rip it off and send the whole structure into a heap.

Thank you so much for this thread...it's wonderful and I've learned a lot from reading everyone's words.

 

[SubKekiLee]

I've learned that it takes years to build up trust, and only seconds to destroy it.

I used to live by this... now I agree to a point, in this lifestyle... I think trust builds up fairly quick if you have great communication with your PYL/pyl and which in turn, turns to love... and communication is the forefront of this type relationship.... Soooo yes I agree 110% that honesty and trust is very important and that you need it in any type of relationship but moreso in this type of relationship..

 

[faeriefire]

*bump* for one of faerie's favorite threads

 

[celticsunspiral]

This Touched My Heart

I am very new to this board (actually any board) but I had to say that while reading this thread I was so touched by the heartfelt and trully thoughtful words put into describing two such simple, but important words.

"Truth and Honesty"

If I could find one person who I truely felt wanted to know me and me them even in a nonsexual relationship I would be one of the luckest persons alive. For those of you who have found this I applaud you. I know that it must be work on both sides, but to come home or make a call and know that someone knows the true you and still loves/cares for you is so special.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

We have trust and honesty in bucketloads. Our relationship has never been stronger, despite recent difficulties and problems on both sides lately. Never rains but pours.

Having said that, I don't expect to know his every waking thought. As a slave there are times when it is appropriate for me to operate on a need to know basis. It tests the trust that I profess to have in him and has strengthened our bond immeasurably. It also keeps me on my toes and prevents me from becoming complacent or assuming that I know everything there is to know about him now.

He does not lie though. He reserves the right to withhold information, give me partial truth or manipulate the truth to serve whatever his goal is but he does not lie. The few occasions he has done (like when he convinced me he was about to cut his initials into my skin when he was in fact holding a key against me) it has been in jest, a temporary deception that is short lived.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Hello to all that have shared so many conversations with Me and to those who are yet to get to know Me. I am honored to see so many words of wisdom coming from all angles.

Trust and honesty for Me are 2 words that build the back bone of integrity and when I feel either sliding away with a tinge of obligation, that raises My hackles, I retreat one small step at a time from believing in the one that talks the talk but skips over the walk.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hello to all that have shared so many conversations with Me and to those who are yet to get to know Me. I am honored to see so many words of wisdom coming from all angles.

Trust and honesty for Me are 2 words that build the back bone of integrity and when I feel either sliding away with a tinge of obligation, that raises My hackles, I retreat one small step at a time from believing in the one that talks the talk but skips over the walk.

So happy to see you here again lovely lady...hope you are planning on staying awhile at least. Also hope life has been kind and generous to you of late.

Catalina

 

[Shadowsdream]

So happy to see you here again lovely lady...hope you are planning on staying awhile at least. Also hope life has been kind and generous to you of late.

Catalina

So nice to see you again...wow what a group you have going on in Lit these days. I must steal every moment I have to read through the many wonderful posts in My absence.

I am a fortunate Woman (who still capitalizes in a weird unnecessary manner) life has been good to Me.

I trust life continues to shine on you as well ~~smile~~

Thank you for the lovely hello Catalina

 

[celticsunspiral]

During my nilla marriage my husband would lay guilt trips on me. Emotional blackmail if you will. "You never want sex. What's wrong with you?" "You must be frigid." If you loved me you'd have sex with me" and on and on and on........I'd end up feeling guilty because I did think that maybe there was something wrong with me......so I'd give in but ended up feeling horrible about it and him, and myself. It turned into a vicious cycle which lasted for many years longer than it should have.

I thought that I shouldn't feel this way about the man I married......I tried to please him but he treated me like a doormat. He controlled me by using the silent treatment. If I upset him he wouldn't speak to me for days. When I left him he used our children as guilt trips......he knew I wasn't coming back so he blamed me for breaking up the family, for his money problems, for his health problems......he never and still hasn't taken responsiblility for any of it. When he found out I was moving to Australia to be with Master, he tried to use our daughter (who lives with him).......tried to make me feel guilty about leaving her behind (she was almost 16 and perfectly ok with having her mother living in another country, a chance to go overseas on a holiday I think )

In the last couple of years I have done a lot of thinking and I realise now that he used my submissive nature and need to serve and please to manipulate me. He was and still is a total ass. I am not worried about leaving my daughter with him however.....she does not have a submissive bone in her body, in fact I believe she is a Domme in the making

One of my first posts. I do alot of self analyzing but if you think of something I didn't please speak your mind.

I understand this a little from both sides. I am currently in a marriage and my husband has no sex drive what so ever, medical and probably mental caused. For some reason when I hit 30 mine went into overdrive and it continues. When the problem first started, before it had gone on for years, I was really understanding we enjoyed mutual play and even if it didn't get him up I knew he enjoyed it. However as time has gone along and he has not made any effort to correct the problem and his sex drive has continued to decrease the dynamic of our relationship changed. First, I was like I can help him I kept track of carbs and cooked good breakfast and supper, etc. He did not help. Then I thought there must be something wrong with me, and I got really down on my self, I spent alot of time begging, sometime crying because it had to be me. This stage lasted a long time, years. Recently, I started the last resort. Guilting him and ultimatiums. "go get a prescription for a little blue pill." Talking with a friend of mine I have realized that at this point in time I feel like his mom and I think he looks at me as his mom, and neither of is is turned on by this image. We probably could work it out if he would talk to me, but he ignores anything resembling a relationship discussion.

Does he trust me? I don't know. Do I trust him? At this point, No, at one time completly. Have I been honest with him? Yes! Has he been honest with me? I don't know if he has been honest with himself. To me marriage is a partnership and he is not fulfilling his end of the bargin in several ways. I do not want / do not like being a manipulator but that is what has happened. He is also manipulating me in other ways.

I want a relationship where the man WANTS to take care of me. I will always take care of those who love me and those I love, no matter what, and I enjoy/need to do it! But you can only continue to give without receiving anything for so long before everything turns sour.

This is an excellent example of how failing trust and honesty to each other and yourself can ruin a relationship.

OK so I know this maybe a little much to say by a newer poster by I really just needed to get it out. Thanks for listening.

 

[Enygma55]

I have to agree with all those that have said this.... this a great thread. I have been cheated on. I have been the other man. I have been honest to a fault and lied like a rug. trust and honesty make for a great relationship along with communication, attention and desire. My last dom/sub relationship ended poorly because she didn't trust me enough to ask for more attention and I didn't have the courage to jump to that conclusion. Most of the faults I have found in myself and others is fear... fear of consquences .. fear of rejection fear of intimacy fear of one's self. I have spent a lot of time thinking of what I want and I have come to the conclusion that I want a loving relationship based on honest trust adn NO fear. People react instead of act and if you act you are making your decision if you react your decision has been made for you.

 

[her_soffie]

Honesty and Trust

Two extremely innocent and unassuming words. Study them. Think about them. Taste them. Inhale them. Devour them. Commit to them if your desires take you past the bedroom games of Domination and submission and into the lifestyle you say you crave. Without one the other cannot exist.
Honesty is the backbone of integrity and tests the vulnerability of a submissive as he or she lays their life completely open at the feet of the Dominant they have chosen to present the gift of their submission to.

A word that speaks volumes that so many never even think about. So easily the single word * honest!* without a thought of the consequences to the subtleties of slight deceptions in the purity of the statement, can pass the lips before they pass the brain.

Honesty has no less importance when it is presented by the Dominant. To mouth the word in insincerety shows Her weakness. Her honesty must be in all things and at all times for it is the strength of Her committment.One digression can bring down Her house of cards.

Honesty sets the parameters and illuminates the boundaries within which we interact. It basically gives us a solid ground to launch from. Trust springs from the ground of honesty only when nurtured through respect and compassion for the partner as equal in humanity if not necessarily in
stature.