Trust and Honesty...opinions please
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Shadowsdream
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bump
Esclava
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Thanks for bumping the thread, Ma'am!
IMOHO, in the same way one can neither love without discipline nor discipline without love - one cannot have trust without honesty or have honesty without trust.
I share much with those who have been victims of giving trust in the face of false honesty ("false honesty" - the oxymoron from hell).
In the beginning of a relationship, it is attraction that initially draws you close. Physical, mental, emotional, verbal - something about you attracts you to another (and hopefully vice versa
). I believe that somewhere in that attraction comes the desire to trust. It is on that "desire" that the ability to share honestly is built. Tidbits of trivial information are exchanged in the hopes that the offering will be accepted and more trust earned or gained. My experience has shown me that this is how the foundation bricks of trust are laid and held together with the mortar of honesty.
Something I believe in that I like to share with others is: People are who I allow them to be. If I allow you to be yourself, you need never hide from me.
That means you have to be honest enough with yourself to come, as you really are, and enjoy the reward of living in the open without fear of judgement from me.
Esclava
IMOHO, in the same way one can neither love without discipline nor discipline without love - one cannot have trust without honesty or have honesty without trust.
I share much with those who have been victims of giving trust in the face of false honesty ("false honesty" - the oxymoron from hell).
In the beginning of a relationship, it is attraction that initially draws you close. Physical, mental, emotional, verbal - something about you attracts you to another (and hopefully vice versa
). I believe that somewhere in that attraction comes the desire to trust. It is on that "desire" that the ability to share honestly is built. Tidbits of trivial information are exchanged in the hopes that the offering will be accepted and more trust earned or gained. My experience has shown me that this is how the foundation bricks of trust are laid and held together with the mortar of honesty.Something I believe in that I like to share with others is: People are who I allow them to be. If I allow you to be yourself, you need never hide from me.
That means you have to be honest enough with yourself to come, as you really are, and enjoy the reward of living in the open without fear of judgement from me.
Esclava
LittleLambLost
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What an amazing thread...
Hello to all--
I am new to this board (although I've been lurking for a while) and I must say that this is the thread that I have enjoyed the most. I think the issues of trust and honesty are what have fueled my interest in this lifestyle. For as long as I can remember, the nameless, faceless star of my sexual fantasies was a man I could trust completely - utterly - and this trust was what made all my deviant, twisted little scenarios so pleasurable. Indeed, I think that sometimes the fantasy guy was more of a turn on than the sex itself.
From what I've read, commitment to trust and honesty are the cornerstone of this lifestyle - on both sides. And I agree with many of you about the dating scene - trust and honesty don't seem to be high on the list of priorities. In fact, they seem to be a hindrance. When I hear men talk about women they've dated, I hear the words 'needy' and 'too dependent' used again and again. As if these are necessarily bad things.
I am in the process of ending a long term relationship that was rife with dishonesty of every kind - on both sides. It was exhausting and demoralizing and left me doubting my ability to be honest and truthful. And yet, I still have hope because I know that I have it in my head and heart to bring the two back to front and center. What a wonderful journey it must be to develop a bond based on trust with someone over time!
Uh oh. Another long post. I promised on my last (first) one that I'd try not to be so verbose. Thank you all for the eloquent and insightful views on this subject, and especially, for the opportunity to be heard.
Hello to all--
I am new to this board (although I've been lurking for a while) and I must say that this is the thread that I have enjoyed the most. I think the issues of trust and honesty are what have fueled my interest in this lifestyle. For as long as I can remember, the nameless, faceless star of my sexual fantasies was a man I could trust completely - utterly - and this trust was what made all my deviant, twisted little scenarios so pleasurable. Indeed, I think that sometimes the fantasy guy was more of a turn on than the sex itself.
From what I've read, commitment to trust and honesty are the cornerstone of this lifestyle - on both sides. And I agree with many of you about the dating scene - trust and honesty don't seem to be high on the list of priorities. In fact, they seem to be a hindrance. When I hear men talk about women they've dated, I hear the words 'needy' and 'too dependent' used again and again. As if these are necessarily bad things.
I am in the process of ending a long term relationship that was rife with dishonesty of every kind - on both sides. It was exhausting and demoralizing and left me doubting my ability to be honest and truthful. And yet, I still have hope because I know that I have it in my head and heart to bring the two back to front and center. What a wonderful journey it must be to develop a bond based on trust with someone over time!
Uh oh. Another long post. I promised on my last (first) one that I'd try not to be so verbose. Thank you all for the eloquent and insightful views on this subject, and especially, for the opportunity to be heard.
Esclava
10 Locks-Do U have keys?
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NP with the verbose posts, Lamb!
Welcome to Lit! Hopefully, you will find a multitude of personalities and topics to whet you appetite for knowledge, thoughtful insight, introspective examination, and just plain old laugh out loud funny-ness.
These were not what I was looking for when I came to this place, but I have found a world more satisfying than any I could have created in my own little space.
Keep posting!
Esclava
Welcome to Lit! Hopefully, you will find a multitude of personalities and topics to whet you appetite for knowledge, thoughtful insight, introspective examination, and just plain old laugh out loud funny-ness.
These were not what I was looking for when I came to this place, but I have found a world more satisfying than any I could have created in my own little space.
Keep posting!
Esclava
LittleLambLost
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Esclava said:NP with the verbose posts, Lamb!
Welcome to Lit! Hopefully, you will find a multitude of personalities and topics to whet you appetite for knowledge, thoughtful insight, introspective examination, and just plain old laugh out loud funny-ness.
These were not what I was looking for when I came to this place, but I have found a world more satisfying than any I could have created in my own little space.
Keep posting!
Esclava
Thank you, Esclava. I've found all those things and more. I read this passage recently:
For there are only two worlds - your world, which is the real world, and other worlds, the fantasy. Worlds like this are worlds of the human imagination: their reality, or lack of reality, is not important. What is important is that they are there. These worlds provide an alternative. Provide an escape. Provide a threat. Provide a dream, and power, provide refuge, and pain. They give your world meaning. They do not exist; and thus they are all that matters. --Neil Gaiman
I found it (as well as your words) comforting. Thanks!
LLL
SwtSouthrnSub
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.
Last edited:
AngelicAssassin
Something Wicked
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Re-bump
A Desert Rose
Simply Charming Elsewhere
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Jeeepers...
I was once really honest and really serious in my posting.
Scary.
But fun to re-read these threads and see old friends.
And mostly, my opinions haven't changed too much over the last couple of years. I sure have learned a lot and find I have lots more to learn.
Great bumps... all, AA.
I was once really honest and really serious in my posting.
Scary.
But fun to re-read these threads and see old friends.
And mostly, my opinions haven't changed too much over the last couple of years. I sure have learned a lot and find I have lots more to learn.
Great bumps... all, AA.
RJMasters
workaholic
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foundations
*snoopy dance.
Two points of the corner stone to lay the foundation for any relationship.
The encouragement to think about these two words and their meanings, is nothing but good.
Infact I think I am going to take some time myself this evening and do just that.
Thanks for the post and the bump. I probably would never have seen this thread as the task of digging through the vast amount of past threads is daunting.
*snoopy dance.
Two points of the corner stone to lay the foundation for any relationship.
The encouragement to think about these two words and their meanings, is nothing but good.
Infact I think I am going to take some time myself this evening and do just that.
Thanks for the post and the bump. I probably would never have seen this thread as the task of digging through the vast amount of past threads is daunting.
AngelicAssassin
Something Wicked
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Actually
A five minute perusal of the threads on the first two pages of results gave you the bumps.
If you want to find thread titles alone with your search word, such as shaving, you get to make one more click. If you want all the variations: shave, shaved, shaving; you type shav* and get them all. A simple search doesn't require a lot, and anyone that takes the time can do the same.
- i clicked the search button
- set Search By Keyword to guilt
- selected --BDSM Talk from the drop down menu under Search Forum...
- selected any date from the drop down menu in Search For Posts From... and
- left the remaining choices as defaults
A five minute perusal of the threads on the first two pages of results gave you the bumps.
If you want to find thread titles alone with your search word, such as shaving, you get to make one more click. If you want all the variations: shave, shaved, shaving; you type shav* and get them all. A simple search doesn't require a lot, and anyone that takes the time can do the same.
Shadowsdream
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Taking this subject of Trust and Honesty into account for its tie to Guilt I would suggest breaking it down for conversation.
Anyone care to join Me?
Often guilt that refuses to be assauged by the submissive is not Honest but a back door attempt to control the actions of the Dominant.
This action may be concious or subconcious but none the less if any Trust is to be built long term the Dominant must be able to feel confident that the one they control is Honestly trying to be all they can be for the joy of their Mistress or Master.
To hold onto guilt after correction does not show a Trust for the Dominants ability to know when enough is enough....so in My opinion it compounds disHonesty if the submissive tries to feign acceptance of a punishment that has done only half of its job.
...Hmmmmm now that I have made Myself dizzy with My opinions I will stop typing and start reading! ~~grin~~
Anyone care to join Me?
Often guilt that refuses to be assauged by the submissive is not Honest but a back door attempt to control the actions of the Dominant.
This action may be concious or subconcious but none the less if any Trust is to be built long term the Dominant must be able to feel confident that the one they control is Honestly trying to be all they can be for the joy of their Mistress or Master.
To hold onto guilt after correction does not show a Trust for the Dominants ability to know when enough is enough....so in My opinion it compounds disHonesty if the submissive tries to feign acceptance of a punishment that has done only half of its job.
...Hmmmmm now that I have made Myself dizzy with My opinions I will stop typing and start reading! ~~grin~~
Shadowsdream
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I look forward to it!RJMasters said:I will join you in morning, after I get a little sleep.
A Desert Rose
Simply Charming Elsewhere
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Shadowsdream said:
You know what I wish? I wish He'd been You... or vice versa.
Now, there's some magic...
Shadowsdream
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Hello little oneA Desert Rose said:
One day magic will sweep you away in such an earth shattering manner that Vegas will light up in triumph for you. I have no doubt about it..never did and never will!
A Desert Rose
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Shadowsdream said:
And Elvis will sing at my wedding. ;-) You are a kind Person, Ma'am.
But on topic...
I don't suffer from a lot of guilt... not you're typical Catholic, for sure. I try to immediately make right whatever wrong I have done, otherwise I have a real hard time living with myself. If I know, and I usually do, that I have done my best to right my mistake, I don't beat myself up over it. It's my place to apologize and to attone. It's the other's place to accept that I am sincere and, in the context of my Dom, apply the appropriate discipline/punishment.
And in all fairness, He was good and even-handed when He did punish. It was not common and I deserved it, on those rare occassions. His disappointment was really the worst punishment.
To hold onto guilt after correction does not show a Trust for the Dominants ability to know when enough is enough....so in My opinion it compounds disHonesty if the submissive tries to feign acceptance of a punishment that has done only half of its job.
This statement by You, is exactly on point... for me at least.
RJMasters
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Ok here goes...
It seems that most Dom/mes seem to get this pretty easy and many of the subs with their head screwed on straight do as well. But I see some out there still struggling to accept or understand this simple truth, which Shadowsdream has elequently stated.
Since I like turning things upside down here goes:
A Dom/me made a wrong choice during a scene and it ended up hurting their submissive. Not bad mind you, but enough where afterwards the Dom/me has some measure of guilt about what happened. Over the next few days the Dom/me seems to be distracted and their sub inquires what is the matter? So they talk it out and during the conversation the Dom/me in a right and good way says "I'm sorry." Being the loving submissive he/she is, his/her heart is softened and wraps their arms around their DOM/mes' neck and says I forgive you! Its a good time and Dom/me leaves for work.
The sub then gets ready as he/she knows tonight is their special time together. Because of the last few days of semi-neglect and the talk they had that afternoon has left them in a state where they have some strong needs, waiting to be met.
Night comes, Scene begins, but goes horrible. Dom/me is fustrated with themselves. Second guesses everything they they do. The sub is unhappy and unsatisfied Dom/me leaves angry fustrated at themselves now feeling even worst than before.
Cpl days go by, Sub is full of doubt wondering what happen. More semi-neglect happens. Sub begins to question and doubt themselves. They wonder if they have displeased their Dom/me in some way.
Dom/me return a few days later and they talk again(mind you almost a week and half since last time any need have been met). Dom/me explains they just don't believe their sub has forgiven them for what they had done, and just can't bring themselves to their normal level of Dominacy. The sub can't believe what they are hearing. Again they insist and insist that its ok, I forgive you! I forgive! The Dom/me smiles and says thankyou, to you, but inside is saying to themselves...I just don't know...I just don't know...what if I do it again....etc...
YUK!
Can you hear me now? Good.
No matter what you do, its just not good enough to get your Dom/me to accept your forgiveness. Even though you talked and the Dom/me seems to accept your forgiveness, your love and your GIFT, but in reality they have rejected your forgiveness, your love and your GIFT, because their actions and emotional state don't show it.
::Takes a step
Can you hear me now? Good.
Honesty and Trust is about givning and accepting. As each gives of themselves honestly to the other, and the other accepts lovingly what is offered, over time trust is formed and deepens. Forgiveness is one of those things we give to those we love.
Shadowsdream said it best...
To hold onto guilt after correction does not show a Trust for the Dominant's ability to know when enough is enough...so in My opinion it compounds disHonesty if the submissive tries to feign acceptance of a punishment that has done only half of its job.
.
It seems that most Dom/mes seem to get this pretty easy and many of the subs with their head screwed on straight do as well. But I see some out there still struggling to accept or understand this simple truth, which Shadowsdream has elequently stated.
Since I like turning things upside down
here goes:A Dom/me made a wrong choice during a scene and it ended up hurting their submissive. Not bad mind you, but enough where afterwards the Dom/me has some measure of guilt about what happened. Over the next few days the Dom/me seems to be distracted and their sub inquires what is the matter? So they talk it out and during the conversation the Dom/me in a right and good way says "I'm sorry." Being the loving submissive he/she is, his/her heart is softened and wraps their arms around their DOM/mes' neck and says I forgive you! Its a good time and Dom/me leaves for work.
The sub then gets ready as he/she knows tonight is their special time together. Because of the last few days of semi-neglect and the talk they had that afternoon has left them in a state where they have some strong needs, waiting to be met.
Night comes, Scene begins, but goes horrible. Dom/me is fustrated with themselves. Second guesses everything they they do. The sub is unhappy and unsatisfied Dom/me leaves angry fustrated at themselves now feeling even worst than before.
Cpl days go by, Sub is full of doubt wondering what happen. More semi-neglect happens. Sub begins to question and doubt themselves. They wonder if they have displeased their Dom/me in some way.
Dom/me return a few days later and they talk again(mind you almost a week and half since last time any need have been met). Dom/me explains they just don't believe their sub has forgiven them for what they had done, and just can't bring themselves to their normal level of Dominacy. The sub can't believe what they are hearing. Again they insist and insist that its ok, I forgive you! I forgive! The Dom/me smiles and says thankyou, to you, but inside is saying to themselves...I just don't know...I just don't know...what if I do it again....etc...
YUK!
Can you hear me now? Good.
No matter what you do, its just not good enough to get your Dom/me to accept your forgiveness. Even though you talked and the Dom/me seems to accept your forgiveness, your love and your GIFT, but in reality they have rejected your forgiveness, your love and your GIFT, because their actions and emotional state don't show it.
::Takes a step
Can you hear me now? Good.
Honesty and Trust is about givning and accepting. As each gives of themselves honestly to the other, and the other accepts lovingly what is offered, over time trust is formed and deepens. Forgiveness is one of those things we give to those we love.
Shadowsdream said it best...
To hold onto guilt after correction does not show a Trust for the Dominant's ability to know when enough is enough...so in My opinion it compounds disHonesty if the submissive tries to feign acceptance of a punishment that has done only half of its job.
.
Luna_Wolf72
CinnaWolf circa 2023
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Shadowsdream said:
Trust and Honesty...two words that thrive one inside the other. Without one, the other does not exist. I have been (during my life) on both sides of the equation. (a submissive with no real trust in myself or others, a Dominant who withheld information required. For that matter in my nilla life I didn't use those watch words very well, either.)
Tis a simple task to point out what one should believe, what one should do. However, without learning and commitment to excellence on BOTH sides those two very important ideals become just words. Once that happens? Guess what guilt, anger and alot of other bad mojo slips in.
So though I make trust and honesty my watch words now, I can say with complete confidence that I did not do so before. And the difference is night and day.
Luna
asses the Orange Juice to LUNAA Desert Rose
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Manipulation
Shadowsdream, I've been thinking a lot about guilt and manipulation. They are interwoven, in my mind.
Manipulation is an insidious behavior. Sometimes one does not know they are being manipulated and sometimes one does not realize they are doing the manipulating.
I'd like to read some opinions on this. Manipulation has been on my mind and I'm having trouble sorting out how I feel about what's happened to me, personally, in my past relationship.
Shadowsdream, I've been thinking a lot about guilt and manipulation. They are interwoven, in my mind.
Manipulation is an insidious behavior. Sometimes one does not know they are being manipulated and sometimes one does not realize they are doing the manipulating.
I'd like to read some opinions on this. Manipulation has been on my mind and I'm having trouble sorting out how I feel about what's happened to me, personally, in my past relationship.
Bandit58
Sir's wonder woman
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Re: Manipulation
ADR I don't know if this is what you are after but maybe it'll help.....
During my nilla marriage my husband would lay guilt trips on me. Emotional blackmail if you will. "You never want sex. What's wrong with you?" "You must be frigid." If you loved me you'd have sex with me" and on and on and on........I'd end up feeling guilty because I did think that maybe there was something wrong with me......so I'd give in but ended up feeling horrible about it and him, and myself. It turned into a vicious cycle which lasted for many years longer than it should have.
I thought that I shouldn't feel this way about the man I married......I tried to please him but he treated me like a doormat. He controlled me by using the silent treatment. If I upset him he wouldn't speak to me for days. When I left him he used our children as guilt trips......he knew I wasn't coming back so he blamed me for breaking up the family, for his money problems, for his health problems......he never and still hasn't taken responsiblility for any of it. When he found out I was moving to Australia to be with Master, he tried to use our daughter (who lives with him).......tried to make me feel guilty about leaving her behind (she was almost 16 and perfectly ok with having her mother living in another country, a chance to go overseas on a holiday I think )
In the last couple of years I have done a lot of thinking and I realise now that he used my submissive nature and need to serve and please to manipulate me. He was and still is a total ass. I am not worried about leaving my daughter with him however.....she does not have a submissive bone in her body, in fact I believe she is a Domme in the making
A Desert Rose said:
ADR I don't know if this is what you are after but maybe it'll help.....
During my nilla marriage my husband would lay guilt trips on me. Emotional blackmail if you will. "You never want sex. What's wrong with you?" "You must be frigid." If you loved me you'd have sex with me" and on and on and on........I'd end up feeling guilty because I did think that maybe there was something wrong with me......so I'd give in but ended up feeling horrible about it and him, and myself. It turned into a vicious cycle which lasted for many years longer than it should have.
I thought that I shouldn't feel this way about the man I married......I tried to please him but he treated me like a doormat. He controlled me by using the silent treatment. If I upset him he wouldn't speak to me for days. When I left him he used our children as guilt trips......he knew I wasn't coming back so he blamed me for breaking up the family, for his money problems, for his health problems......he never and still hasn't taken responsiblility for any of it. When he found out I was moving to Australia to be with Master, he tried to use our daughter (who lives with him).......tried to make me feel guilty about leaving her behind (she was almost 16 and perfectly ok with having her mother living in another country, a chance to go overseas on a holiday I think
) In the last couple of years I have done a lot of thinking and I realise now that he used my submissive nature and need to serve and please to manipulate me. He was and still is a total ass. I am not worried about leaving my daughter with him however.....she does not have a submissive bone in her body, in fact I believe she is a Domme in the making
Shadowsdream
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Re: Manipulation
Guilt and Manipulation can indeed be interwoven and I would suggest that manipulation has nothing to do with Domination. When a Dominant has to resort to manipulation to Dominate they are in fact admitting that they do not have a handle on control. It is a very vanilla way to gain control over the "emotions" of another.
Using manipulation to gain control of any emotion or reaction becomes repetitive and when you look at it clearly it becomes obvious to also see the laziness of the act. Manipulation can be demoralizing to the manipulated, especially once they recognize the reality of what they are enduring. It is a lose/lose situation.
Respect is lost as well as Trust. Honesty never exists in manipulation for the act itself is disHonest and weak.
Control takes Honesty for it to be true control.
A Desert Rose said:
Guilt and Manipulation can indeed be interwoven and I would suggest that manipulation has nothing to do with Domination. When a Dominant has to resort to manipulation to Dominate they are in fact admitting that they do not have a handle on control. It is a very vanilla way to gain control over the "emotions" of another.
Using manipulation to gain control of any emotion or reaction becomes repetitive and when you look at it clearly it becomes obvious to also see the laziness of the act. Manipulation can be demoralizing to the manipulated, especially once they recognize the reality of what they are enduring. It is a lose/lose situation.
Respect is lost as well as Trust. Honesty never exists in manipulation for the act itself is disHonest and weak.
Control takes Honesty for it to be true control.
