Two Masters?

[Etoile]

Ah yes...now I remember why my interest in having a child was never more than a passing whim. It's all just too much. Kudos to those who can have them and enjoy them, but I think they would just be overwhelming for me.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Ah yes...now I remember why my interest in having a child was never more than a passing whim. It's all just too much. Kudos to those who can have them and enjoy them, but I think they would just be overwhelming for me.

*smiles* they ARE overwhelming sometimes, but the rewards far outweigh all of that. i love my kids with all my being i think it has been made to sound alot harder than it is to balance both kids and Master, atleast for me anyway *shrugs*

 

[Etoile]

As for the job thing, I don't think having a job, enjoying a job, or even being unable to quit at a moment's notice means that one is less of a submissive. Not everyone can afford not to be a double-income home. The Master needs the submissive to work because that income is necessary. Therefore, the submissive needs to KEEP the job so that income keeps rolling in. If a Master in this situation said "slave, I want you to stop going to work," to me that would be akin to asking them to kill someone. (And we've all had THAT discussion!) I think a perfectly appropriate response would be "Master, I want to follow your orders, but please tell me how we would pay the mortgage if I leave my job?" It's a matter of a sanity check, same as Catalina saying if Francisco ordered her to kill, she would try to find out what was going on in his head that prompted it, rather than running off and stabbing someone.

Having a job does not mean one is not a submissive or not a slave. It means one is contributing to the household because it is necessary.

 

[callinectes]

I can very much see where osg is coming from, probably because in these things we tend to think a lot alike. We all make choices, including on what terms we submit, or what terms we can afford to submit to at a particular time. For me that choice was always going to be that when I did submit, I wanted it to be a TPE situation where my Master would be the first person to whom I answered, and as such he had precedence over everything else. For me, if I worked, it would mean he would have to take second place to the demands of my job unless I could afford the luxury of working for myself in my own time. It is natural if you work that you have to put aside the immediate needs of your PYL at times in the interests of fulfilling your employment responsibilities otherwise you will not hold the job for long. In that way it is like serving more than one Master, and also having to give preference to the needs of the one which is most needed for whatever reason you may choose. If I went to work tomorrow, I would expect I would have to be at work at certain times, would not be free to call in sick everytime he wanted me here serving him, and basically it would mean his needs would come after those of my employer....that is not what I envisioned when I set out to live this lifestyle, and that to me is not serving him on an equal basis to my employer.


Similarly if you have small children it is wise to choose a PYL who is going to place as much importance on their needs as the submissive does. While my son is an adult, he has major problems which mean he needs me for quite a time yet, and fortunately, not only does F recognise the importance of that need, but he is also the one responsible for offering us an opportunity for my son to eventually lead an independent and healthy life and supporting us to find the solutions needed. Despite not having children of his own, he has gone above and beyond what I or anyone would ever have expected to care for my son, and especially has done more for him then his biological father who hasn't bothered to have contact or see him for most of his life. Regardless of the stress and time consuming demands of my son's situation, F still comes first and does not get put aside until I have time for him. It is a matter of F being a part of the solution instead of standing by and demanding instant miracles of me....he actually takes as much of the responsibility as I do, and plays an important role in my son's life, and through it all, if and when F needs and/or wants me, F comes first irrespective of what I am doing.

It makes sense for us in that without F my son would not have the life he now has, or a chance at a future. If I had small children I imagine F would still take precedence, but that would not mean I loved my children less or cared badly for them. I think the mistake a lot of people make when children become part of their life is they believe the relationship shoud be put aside for the sake of the children's needs....what usually happens is the children develop a sense of belief they are the center of the universe and should be entitled to whatever they want when they want, and the parents slowly lose the relationship they had, and then what often follows is divorce and children without 2 loving parents in one home. It is so much easier and healthier if they realise their parents (or parent) is healthier and happier if they are able to have an adult loving relationship which co-exists with the relationship between parent and child, and everyone's needs are met, not just those of the child because that child first formula usually results in the childs needs not being met either.

Catalina

I hear what you are saying about children and relationships Cat. My marriage did not end because the child became the center of the universe..there were a multitude of reasons but that wasn't one of them. You say your son is an adult. With the exception of some serious health and mental conditions, there is a hell of a lot of difference between parenting an adult child and parenting a 10 year old. Adults and teens can be left alone, are more autonomous, and generally want to spend as little time as possible with the parents. We aren't there yet. (I don't know what your son's situation is so my remarks may be inappropriate)

Having said all of that, it is obvious you chose well when you chose F. You also had to move halfway around the world to find him. Again, we don't all have the luxury.

So, sure, it can work if all the pieces are in place..but you gotta admit those are some big pieces.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I hear what you are saying about children and relationships Cat. My marriage did not end because the child became the center of the universe..there were a multitude of reasons but that wasn't one of them. You say your son is an adult. With the exception of some serious health and mental conditions, there is a hell of a lot of difference between parenting an adult child and parenting a 10 year old. Adults and teens can be left alone, are more autonomous, and generally want to spend as little time as possible with the parents. We aren't there yet. (I don't know what your son's situation is so my remarks may be inappropriate)

Having said all of that, it is obvious you chose well when you chose F. You also had to move halfway around the world to find him. Again, we don't all have the luxury.

So, sure, it can work if all the pieces are in place..but you gotta admit those are some big pieces.

i agree and we all also don't have the luxury of our Masters/Doms having a good enough job that we don't have to work. i know that's the situation with us anyway. it takes two incomes more often than not these days.

 

[HottieMama]

exactly, i agree completely. and i also don't think it makes a submissive less submissive if she puts her kids first, or a slave less of a slave for that matter because i just don't see the children as part of the lifestyle *shrugs* we have gotten way off topic *grins* ah well, it happens on every thread i've ever seen started here on lit

i agree with you. i just don't see kids as part of the lifestyle either.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

A Ds relationship does not exist in a vaccuum. It is affected by everything around it, as is any other type of relationship. She has kids that need cared for and raised, and that is something that has to be a priority in her life, and I fully concur with that belief. In fact, I could not respect her as a person if she were to completely set aside her children's needs for me.

My step mom came between my dad and I, and no way would I wsih htat on any child.

 

[Netzach]

I definitely believe that my slave should be working outside the home. Whenever remotely feasible, financially, his work benefits me. I place my desires behond those of his obligations to himself (rent food etc.) and his daughter (tuition) because I choose to live in reality. But when there's a chunk of money for leisure purposes, it's for my leisure.

Far more valuable to me than having my feet rubbed on a moment's notice or my food carried hot to my table.

 

[shy slave]

[RANT]
Sometimes I read things on here and wonder if people see D/s in some sort of vortex, outside of reality.

There are many people out there who do not have a job, not because they don't want to work but because their SO does not want them to work.

There can be nothing BDSM'ish about the relationship.
I hear about it a great deal in vanilla couples. One person persuades the other that being at home or with them is a better thing to do.
Sometimes it is for all the right reasons and sometimes it is for other reasons.

Finances are the same, on another thread it was mentioned about giving up financial security and how they could not do that. Yet for years that has been part of people's marriages. Money was in a joint account and before bank accounts one person in the relationship held the purse strings. I know my grandfather handed his wages over to my grandmother each week and she dealt with the money side of life.

I am not commenting on whether these issues are right or wrong I am saying that not everything in life is about D/s, sometimes it is about what works best in a relationship.

Does no-one ever look at social history anymore without seeing BDSM/Abuse/Denial of rights anymore?

Sometimes life is just well, life.
[/RANT]

 

[shy slave]

i would argue that she herself is shorted out of the experience of fully being the child's mother...and the children are shorted their mother's attention. Both pretty shitty, IMO.

i am thrilled that this has never been an issue with my PYL. He likes the fact that no matter what, i put my children first. Seriously, i don't think any woman should have a child if she's "unable to" or "unwillingly to" take care of it...and put the child's needs above all else.

I find this post very very offensive.

Does a father miss the experience of being a father because he works?

Perhaps they should both stay home and live off Govt handouts paid for by other peoples taxes?

Women who work do not put their children second.
It is incredible that such a post can make so flaming angry as this one has done.
I am in disbelief that in the 21st century people can still have such immature and short sighted views.
It is this sort of rubbish that gives me strong urges to punch things.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I find this post very very offensive.

Does a father miss the experience of being a father because he works?

Perhaps they should both stay home and live off Govt handouts paid for by other peoples taxes?

Women who work do not put their children second.
It is incredible that such a post can make so flaming angry as this one has done.
I am in disbelief that in the 21st century people can still have such immature and short sighted views.
It is this sort of rubbish that gives me strong urges to punch things.

you just made her point more. she was not saying that mothers miss out on raising their children by working, she was saying they miss out if they put their Dom/Master above their children's needs. she was responding to another post made that if you put your kids before your Master/Dom then why bother with a Master/slave relationship.....

 

[callinectes]

[RANT]
Sometimes I read things on here and wonder if people see D/s in some sort of vortex, outside of reality.

There are many people out there who do not have a job, not because they don't want to work but because their SO does not want them to work.

There can be nothing BDSM'ish about the relationship.
I hear about it a great deal in vanilla couples. One person persuades the other that being at home or with them is a better thing to do.
Sometimes it is for all the right reasons and sometimes it is for other reasons.

Finances are the same, on another thread it was mentioned about giving up financial security and how they could not do that. Yet for years that has been part of people's marriages. Money was in a joint account and before bank accounts one person in the relationship held the purse strings. I know my grandfather handed his wages over to my grandmother each week and she dealt with the money side of life.

I am not commenting on whether these issues are right or wrong I am saying that not everything in life is about D/s, sometimes it is about what works best in a relationship.

Does no-one ever look at social history anymore without seeing BDSM/Abuse/Denial of rights anymore?

Sometimes life is just well, life.
[/RANT]

Maybe I am misunderstanding your post. I'm really not sure. I agree with you about the job and money issues and thier relevance to relationships in general. I'm certainly not slamming anyone because they don't have a job, etc. I'm very happy for those that are in situations that they are comfortable in. I'm way past being surprised by other people's situations..if they are happy then it's all good. Myself, I was offended by what I interpreted as an assertion that because I had other responsibilites I shouldn't even bother with my relationship. As I said above, the whole topic reminds me of the working mom vs stay-at-home mom debates. One has to do what is right for their situation. In my situation, regardless of the flavor of the relationship, kid and job has to come before the man. Should my situation change, then all of that could change too. I'm just doing what I have to do right now.

 

[Netzach]

I just find it really really interesting that these issues are not raised in the context of male slaves. It would never be questioned for a male slave to work outside the home, it would seem obvious and the norm - keeping one home would seem renegade and unusual.

I don't understand how one can think hierarchically about relationships with children versus relationships with partners OR owners - it seems to me that demanding priority OVER children, minor OR adult children, is completely useless in regard to having any kind of relationship with anyone fit to be a parent - if you and the persons's kids are in "competiton" something is really really wrong with your security in the relationship.

 

[Netzach]

Oh - I also grew up with a mother who was extremely submissive and essentially it was extremely clear that she was not the real authority and kow towed to the whims of someone else almost every single time. She was not the decision maker. She would accept any comment made shrug her shoulders and take it.

That the someone else was her parents and not a Master doesn't really matter - I watched this authority vacuum - I watched it close and often every time it went down.

I have immense hatred mixed with my love and I'm still paying therapy bills. Just sayin'.

I'm not saying parents cant be submissive and still OK parents - but I will say that parents who show no authority with their children and drive home the point, tacitly OR explicitly, that they're not really the man behind the curtain are in for a few nasty surprises.

 

[ownedsubgal]

i think some have DRASTICALLY misunderstood the points i was attempting to make, re: children, working, etc. however Catalina expressed it beautifully in her last post. it's not about neglecting or disregarding your children, it's about having the right Master who knowledgeably and willingly takes on those responsibilities so that you, the slave, can feasibly retain your Master as your top priority. this is not something extreme or new. many more traditional vanilla couples have operated this way (and thrived). my aunt would be a great example...to this day she remains in my mind the standard for the perfect wife and mother. there was never any question in their household that her husband, my uncle, came first in her life. she would bend over backwards to submit to his slightest request. now, does this mean that she neglected her 4 children, that she would make a steak dinner for her husband and give the kids cheerios? no, of course not. because those children were HIS top priority, and he always made sure that all of their needs and most of their wants were taken care of. when there were severe paycuts for railroad employees, and he couldn't bring in enough money to support the family comfortably, he was the one who told my aunt she needed to go out and clean some whitefolks' houses until they could get back on their feet. is this a move she would have made without his directing it? absolutely not. but do you think she worried for one second that her children would go hungry or unclothed? no, because she had faith in her husband, and she knew that by serving him first, the whole family unit would continue to run smoothly. now why such a concept seems disturbing or dysfunctional to some here, i truly don't know.


now, as for the whole working vs. not working issue. i don't think it makes anyone more or less slavelike if they work or if they do not work. my point was that if a person has a demanding career, then that job is in many ways your Master. heck, my own Master complains about hardtimes forcing him to work for a company as opposed to for himself as he is accustomed to...to an extent, he certainly considers his company to be his Master. so it is not just a sub/slave thing. callinectes said something about everyone not having the "luxury" that we do. well girlie, trust me, my not working has certainly never been a luxury. there have been times we have seriously struggled financially. however if i do not work, and therefore we have less money, cannot afford certain things, etc., that is the sacrifice my Master is willing to make in order to maintain the control and power over me that he needs. now, when i have worked (which i have for months at a time), it was always at his command, at a business of his choosing. even when technically working for someone else, he has always been able to control my work life, setting my schedule, vacations, etc. now this was always possible with us because of the nature of work i've done...subservient, never demanding, etc. however i know of slaves in seemingly very high-powered positions, whose Masters are able to do the same. so it's far from impossible.

and really that's been my point....you CAN be a good mother, and still put your Master first. you CAN maintain a job/career, and still put your Master first. however if one's Master does not come first, and even the very idea of such a thing seems ridiculous to you, then yes it makes me wonder, why bother with a Master at all?

(and please note i am talking about Masters and slaves, not other D/s exchanges).

 

[lil_slave_rose]

i think some have DRASTICALLY misunderstood the points i was attempting to make, re: children, working, etc. however Catalina expressed it beautifully in her last post. it's not about neglecting or disregarding your children, it's about having the right Master who knowledgeably and willingly takes on those responsibilities so that you, the slave, can feasibly retain your Master as your top priority. this is not something extreme or new. many more traditional vanilla couples have operated this way (and thrived). my aunt would be a great example...to this day she remains in my mind the standard for the perfect wife and mother. there was never any question in their household that her husband, my uncle, came first in her life. she would bend over backwards to submit to his slightest request. now, does this mean that she neglected her 4 children, that she would make a steak dinner for her husband and give the kids cheerios? no, of course not. because those children were HIS top priority, and he always made sure that all of their needs and most of their wants were taken care of. when there were severe paycuts for railroad employees, and he couldn't bring in enough money to support the family comfortably, he was the one who told my aunt she needed to go out and clean some whitefolks' houses until they could get back on their feet. is this a move she would have made without his directing it? absolutely not. but do you think she worried for one second that her children would go hungry or unclothed? no, because she had faith in her husband, and she knew that by serving him first, the whole family unit would continue to run smoothly. now why such a concept seems disturbing or dysfunctional to some here, i truly don't know.


now, as for the whole working vs. not working issue. i don't think it makes anyone more or less slavelike if they work or if they do not work. my point was that if a person has a demanding career, then that job is in many ways your Master. heck, my own Master complains about hardtimes forcing him to work for a company as opposed to for himself as he is accustomed to...to an extent, he certainly considers his company to be his Master. so it is not just a sub/slave thing. callinectes said something about everyone not having the "luxury" that we do. well girlie, trust me, my not working has certainly never been a luxury. there have been times we have seriously struggled financially. however if i do not work, and therefore we have less money, cannot afford certain things, etc., that is the sacrifice my Master is willing to make in order to maintain the control and power over me that he needs. now, when i have worked (which i have for months at a time), it was always at his command, at a business of his choosing. even when technically working for someone else, he has always been able to control my work life, setting my schedule, vacations, etc. now this was always possible with us because of the nature of work i've done...subservient, never demanding, etc. however i know of slaves in seemingly very high-powered positions, whose Masters are able to do the same. so it's far from impossible.

and really that's been my point....you CAN be a good mother, and still put your Master first. you CAN maintain a job/career, and still put your Master first. however if one's Master does not come first, and even the very idea of such a thing seems ridiculous to you, then yes it makes me wonder, why bother with a Master at all?

(and please note i am talking about Masters and slaves, not other D/s exchanges).

why bother? because Master/slave Dom/sub the whole lifestyle does not exist in a Vacuum. there are other aspects to life besides what goes on in a Master/slave relationship. i don't know of any jobs out there that would allow my Master to set my work schedule, my vacations, etc...when there needs to be two incomes, well there's not much you can do. yes, Master loves my kids and will help provide and take care of them, but it is not His responsibility to take care of my kids while i 'serve' Him. i can serve Him and care for my children with no problems at all, as He stated Himself He WANTS my kids needs to come first before Him. He is not the biological father of my children therefore He has not obligations to them, and it's not fair to expect that He raise them. we will do it together, as a team, but since my children are not a part of the lifestyle, He doesn't get the 'final' say with my kids, i do.

as i said in an earlier post, i think it's been made out to be more complicated than it is, because i've never had a problem taking care of my kids, and Master. they all feel that i give them the amount of attention they need, so i must be doing something right. the world that you describe where Master can control my work schedule, sounds nice, but i just don't see anywhere here that would allow that, so i will work for however long i need to and if my job demands alot out of me, well it's something we'll have to deal with as it comes along. Master is supportive, and doesn't have me living in a tunnel where only His needs are important, maybe that's the difference. *shrugs* i just know, it works for us, and what works for you works for you, and that's what matters.

 

[Etoile]

I am just guessing here. I think that "slave puts the Master first, and Master looks out for the children" does not necessarily mean that slave does not care for the children. In fact, I would expect that most mothers do the caretaking and most fathers help out as they desire to, regardless of who is Master/slave...yes, there are exceptions, but that's the majority.

In the case of a slave mother and Master father, I would say that the slave still does most of the day-to-day caretaking. And again, the Master participates as he wishes to, which may be a little or a lot.

But what I think is the point, is that the Master arranges the slave's life in a way that enables her to look after the children. If they need two incomes, maybe he allows her to work part-time and then come home so she's there when the kids are home from school. Or he expects her to care for the kids all the time, but if he is going to make some demand of her, he will provide an alternative caretaker for while she is serving him. She can rest comfortable that whenever she is going to be focusing on him, her children will still be taken care of. (Alternative caretaker could be a babysitter, a movie, whatever.)

Does that sound like something that could work in everyday life?

 

[callinectes]

Ownedsubgal, the written word and I have not been getting along well the last couple of days. I am offending you when that honestly is not my intention. By "luxury" I did not mean you sat around and ate bon bons while your Master pulled down 500k/year. What I meant was...When you went to your Master you had the "luxury" of not having any obligations or responsibilities to people who depend on you for their care. You were able to leave your old life behind and become totally and completly his. You did not have to worry about the impact it would have on your child. I also have parents who are in excellent health but are approaching their mid-70s. I have to consider those people's needs. From my POV it would be a luxury to not have to take those factors into consideration when entering/maintaining a relationship. Please understand I am not using the word luxury as a negative here. I am not condeming or judging you here. It is simply a difference in circumstances.

I can understand why you would think I was being ugly as I did lob some pretty harsh posts towards you a couple of months ago. At the same time I was quick to take offense in this thread by what I interpreted as a dismissal of the validity of my relationship. Fact of the matter is I may never be able to commit myself the way you have. But that does not mean I have not come to respect and have a better understanding of a relationship such as yours.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I am just guessing here. I think that "slave puts the Master first, and Master looks out for the children" does not necessarily mean that slave does not care for the children. In fact, I would expect that most mothers do the caretaking and most fathers help out as they desire to, regardless of who is Master/slave...yes, there are exceptions, but that's the majority.

In the case of a slave mother and Master father, I would say that the slave still does most of the day-to-day caretaking. And again, the Master participates as he wishes to, which may be a little or a lot.

But what I think is the point, is that the Master arranges the slave's life in a way that enables her to look after the children. If they need two incomes, maybe he allows her to work part-time and then come home so she's there when the kids are home from school. Or he expects her to care for the kids all the time, but if he is going to make some demand of her, he will provide an alternative caretaker for while she is serving him. She can rest comfortable that whenever she is going to be focusing on him, her children will still be taken care of. (Alternative caretaker could be a babysitter, a movie, whatever.)

Does that sound like something that could work in everyday life?

yes Etoile, it does sound like it could work. but also as i've said i think it's been made out to be alot harder than it sounds to balance both. when Master is here, His needs are met, as well as my children's with no problems whatsoever, it's just not that hard. the things i do to serve Him are simple and don't take a babysitter being brought in to watch my kids while i do whatever it is He demands of me to do. it's every day stuff, ya know?

but my whole point was, if i put Him above my kids, they will eventually start resenting Him because they will see that He comes first. but it's a non issue for me, because Master agrees with me on the subject and wouldn't respect me any other way..so it works. there have been plenty of times we've been on the phone, or even when He was here, that i had to put our day on hold to do something for my kids. like when He was here, and my daughter needed her glasses fixed. we had plans for that day, but i HAD to go take her glasses in to get them fixed because without them, she is blind pretty much literally. so we put our plans on hold, and we went got her glasses fixed, and THEN we went on with our day. that's the kind of stuff i'm talking about.

hell the first time He was here, the second day He was here, my best friend had CPS (Child Protective Services) called on her, and we were on our way to get something to eat, she called me said she needed me to come get her kids if i didn't they were taking them to foster care, i told Master what was goin on and He didn't hesitate, He said, let's go. *shrugs* sometimes life gets in the way and that's what i meant when i said and when Master said, we don't live in a BDSM Vacuum. sometimes things have to be put on hold, including something Master wanted to do, or needed done.....make sense?? LOL...i feel like i'm going around in circles *smiles*

 

[Etoile]

yes Etoile, it does sound like it could work. but also as i've said i think it's been made out to be alot harder than it sounds to balance both. when Master is here, His needs are met, as well as my children's with no problems whatsoever, it's just not that hard. the things i do to serve Him are simple and don't take a babysitter being brought in to watch my kids while i do whatever it is He demands of me to do. it's every day stuff, ya know?

but my whole point was, if i put Him above my kids, they will eventually start resenting Him because they will see that He comes first. but it's a non issue for me, because Master agrees with me on the subject and wouldn't respect me any other way..so it works. there have been plenty of times we've been on the phone, or even when He was here, that i had to put our day on hold to do something for my kids. like when He was here, and my daughter needed her glasses fixed. we had plans for that day, but i HAD to go take her glasses in to get them fixed because without them, she is blind pretty much literally. so we put our plans on hold, and we went got her glasses fixed, and THEN we went on with our day. that's the kind of stuff i'm talking about.

hell the first time He was here, the second day He was here, my best friend had CPS (Child Protective Services) called on her, and we were on our way to get something to eat, she called me said she needed me to come get her kids if i didn't they were taking them to foster care, i told Master what was goin on and He didn't hesitate, He said, let's go. *shrugs* sometimes life gets in the way and that's what i meant when i said and when Master said, we don't live in a BDSM Vacuum. sometimes things have to be put on hold, including something Master wanted to do, or needed done.....make sense?? LOL...i feel like i'm going around in circles *smiles*

Rose, I wasn't really addressing anyone in particular. Please don't feel like you have to defend yourself to me. As I've said, kids are something that require a lot more sanity than I will (probably) ever muster, so I have a lot of respect for ALL responsible parents. Honestly, you do not have to explain yourself to me. I was perhaps trying to explain osg's perspective in a way that might make more sense, since some on this thread have said they thought it was unfair to deny children the care of their mother. Or perhaps I was just putting a different spin on what she meant, coming at it from a slightly different angle.

Again, I cannot hope to understand the perspective of someone with children. I am just trying to share my own thoughts. I can understand why you would be very defensive about this...but I certainly do not judge your level of submission or enslavement by whether your children or your Master are "more important" to you.

 

[HottieMama]

Etoile...what you said makes a lot of sense and sounds certainly "do-able" for most people. i'm sorry if i came off as defensive in my earlier posts. This is an emotionally-charged issue for me in more ways than one, and perhaps i could have worded my opinion better.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Rose, I wasn't really addressing anyone in particular. Please don't feel like you have to defend yourself to me. As I've said, kids are something that require a lot more sanity than I will (probably) ever muster, so I have a lot of respect for ALL responsible parents. Honestly, you do not have to explain yourself to me. I was perhaps trying to explain osg's perspective in a way that might make more sense, since some on this thread have said they thought it was unfair to deny children the care of their mother. Or perhaps I was just putting a different spin on what she meant, coming at it from a slightly different angle.

Again, I cannot hope to understand the perspective of someone with children. I am just trying to share my own thoughts. I can understand why you would be very defensive about this...but I certainly do not judge your level of submission or enslavement by whether your children or your Master are "more important" to you.

*smiles* i wasn't necessarily defending myself to you, i do know you're not judging me, i was just commenting on how your post would or wouldn't work for me in my relationship, and maybe trying to explain that taking care of kid's needs and Master's needs really isn't THAT hard to do. i quoted you because i was answering your question about whether or not your scenario sounded feasible. the rest was just general statements. i agree with whoever said that for a Master and children to be in competition is just silly. my kids and Master are both equally important people in my life, there is no competition..and they all love each other so that works out even better *smiles*

 

[catalina_francisco]

now, as for the whole working vs. not working issue. i don't think it makes anyone more or less slavelike if they work or if they do not work. my point was that if a person has a demanding career, then that job is in many ways your Master. heck, my own Master complains about hardtimes forcing him to work for a company as opposed to for himself as he is accustomed to...to an extent, he certainly considers his company to be his Master. so it is not just a sub/slave thing. callinectes said something about everyone not having the "luxury" that we do. well girlie, trust me, my not working has certainly never been a luxury. there have been times we have seriously struggled financially. however if i do not work, and therefore we have less money, cannot afford certain things, etc., that is the sacrifice my Master is willing to make in order to maintain the control and power over me that he needs.

Have to agree with this as well. We do not have as affluent lifestyle as many of our friends where both work, or the wife at least works part time and they get to channel that extra money into holidays, paying off the mortgage quicker, getting a new car etc., but it is our choice for various reasons to survive on one income. Added to that, it has not been a luxury to be seperated from my daughter and granddaughter who I was used to seeing almost daily and adore, and haven't seen for about 1 1/2 years now....not to mention my elderly parents who were not in good health and who I was primary emergency call person for and saw each week when I lived there. Handling my fathers death when I was 16,000 kms away also was far from a piece of cake, especially when I could see the inevitable disaster about to happen and couldn't get a flight quick enough to try and prevent it. Now I jump everytime the phone rings late at night expecting it to be bad news about my mother's passing which according to doctors is a miracle it has not happened already. These were all things I had to consider and recognise that whichever decision I made, I would suffer in some way by being seperated from someone I loved and valued...in that way it is a no win situation and will remain that way.

and really that's been my point....you CAN be a good mother, and still put your Master first. you CAN maintain a job/career, and still put your Master first. however if one's Master does not come first, and even the very idea of such a thing seems ridiculous to you, then yes it makes me wonder, why bother with a Master at all?

(and please note i am talking about Masters and slaves, not other D/s exchanges).

I think for many it is easier to choose the role of submissive under those circumstances as it gives a lot more flexibility. For me, I can't consider placing F in a position where his needs get considered after everything and everyone else, hence why I was careful and thought a lot about the decisions I was making, and made sure I was prepared to make the sacrifices expected, and be able to live with them. Not all see M/s in the same way, but for us I think it is the only way we can approach it without invalidating our choice.

Catalina

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Have to agree with this as well. We do not have as affluent lifestyle as many of our friends where both work, or the wife at least works part time and they get to channel that extra money into holidays, paying off the mortgage quicker, getting a new car etc., but it is our choice for various reasons to survive on one income. Added to that, it has not been a luxury to be seperated from my daughter and granddaughter who I was used to seeing almost daily and adore, and haven't seen for about 1 1/2 years now....not to mention my elderly parents who were not in good health and who I was primary emergency call person for and saw each week when I lived there. Handling my fathers death when I was 16,000 kms away also was far from a piece of cake, especially when I could see the inevitable disaster about to happen and couldn't get a flight quick enough to try and prevent it. Now I jump everytime the phone rings late at night expecting it to be bad news about my mother's passing which according to doctors is a miracle it has not happened already. These were all things I had to consider and recognise that whichever decision I made, I would suffer in some way by being seperated from someone I loved and valued...in that way it is a no win situation and will remain that way.




I think for many it is easier to choose the role of submissive under those circumstances as it gives a lot more flexibility. For me, I can't consider placing F in a position where his needs get considered after everything and everyone else, hence why I was careful and thought a lot about the decisions I was making, and made sure I was prepared to make the sacrifices expected, and be able to live with them. Not all see M/s in the same way, but for us I think it is the only way we can approach it without invalidating our choice.

Catalina

i think that's what this boils down to do for me. i do not see M/s quite the same way as you and osg, though you and me cat, see things alot the same on alot of other issues. me working wouldn't just be for 'holidays' or 'extra things' it would be to live, to be able to pay the bills. for us, with the job Master has, He doesn't make enough to support a family PLUS pay all the bills and put food on the table. that does not mean that He is less of a man or whatever, though He does have those 'old fashioned' thoughts that the Man brings home the money while the woman stays home with the kids, BUT it's just not feasible in this day and age alot of times. so i will have to work, atleast until He can find a 'better' job or finish His novel and get it published, then we'll have it made *smiles* but, until then, i'll work, He'll work, and we'll both take care of my kids and we'll be one big happy family.......most of the time *grins*

 

[callinectes]

I give up. The word luxury was obviously poorly chosen. Insert word of choice to describe a "highly favorable circumstance" or "a range of choices" or "availibility of back-up plans"