U.S. politics isolation tank

[midwestyankee]

On Wisconsin....

Came across this bit of statics chez Andrew Sullivan:

Only 5 states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have deemed it illegal. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:

South Carolina – 50th
North Carolina – 49th
Georgia – 48th
Texas – 47th
Virginia – 44th

If you are wondering, Wisconsin, with its collective bargaining for teachers, is ranked 2nd in the country. Let’s keep it that way.

Scott Lemieux adds:

This isn’t to say that the lack of collective bargaining explains these poor outcomes, of course, but it is true that the evidence that breaking teacher’s unions improves educational outcomes is somewhere between “exceptionally weak” and “non-existent.”
​

Did anyone else listen to the prank call where a radio host pwned Governor Walker into thinking that he was David Koch and Walker went about clarifying his union-busting mentality?

 

[Netzach]

On Wisconsin....

Came across this bit of statics chez Andrew Sullivan:

Only 5 states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have deemed it illegal. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:

South Carolina – 50th
North Carolina – 49th
Georgia – 48th
Texas – 47th
Virginia – 44th

If you are wondering, Wisconsin, with its collective bargaining for teachers, is ranked 2nd in the country. Let’s keep it that way.

Scott Lemieux adds:

This isn’t to say that the lack of collective bargaining explains these poor outcomes, of course, but it is true that the evidence that breaking teacher’s unions improves educational outcomes is somewhere between “exceptionally weak” and “non-existent.”
​

Did anyone else listen to the prank call where a radio host pwned Governor Walker into thinking that he was David Koch and Walker went about clarifying his union-busting mentality?

Got the scuttlebutt haven't listened in. Just TAKING that call is pretty much incrimination. I forsee a short career.

Interesting fact: WI owes MN 48 MILLION dollars in reciprocity tax agreements. That's a couple of TPaw killed shortfalls for social service granting. I basically think that fiscal conservatism is now "I can pretend no one else is paying my way."

 

[JMohegan]

On Wisconsin....

Came across this bit of statics chez Andrew Sullivan:

Only 5 states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have deemed it illegal. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:

South Carolina – 50th
North Carolina – 49th
Georgia – 48th
Texas – 47th
Virginia – 44th

If you are wondering, Wisconsin, with its collective bargaining for teachers, is ranked 2nd in the country. Let’s keep it that way.
​

Leaving aside the point that multiple, complex factors have an impact on test scores, my inner stats geek gets pissed off when crap borne of such specious methodology flies around.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...union-supporters-say-wisconsin-test-scores-v/

The Wisconsin Democratic Party took that claim off their website when challenged. Possibly Sullivan will issue a retraction as well.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Rosco, how do you like Madison? What's your read?

I figured you'd be on this union battle thing.

I actually tried to go there, and timed it perfectly wrong.

I got stuck in the Chicago bus station in a storm for 12 hours with a whole crew of tweekers, ex-cons nervously calling their parole officers, a poor lady with no front teeth whose boyfriend had dumped her in Bismark with no money and no winter clothes...No buses, no cars to be had. I had to give up and go back to New York.

My read is, it's the last hurrah. You'll see them trying the same stunt everywhere now.

 

[JMohegan]

The dichotomy between public v. private sector unions makes for interesting debate, but here's Trumka:

http://blog.aflcio.org/2011/02/17/trumka-wisconsin-cuts-are-payback-for-politicians-ceos/

Apparently both he and Walker will be on Meet the Press this weekend.

 

[JMohegan]

I actually tried to go there, and timed it perfectly wrong.

I got stuck in the Chicago bus station in a storm for 12 hours with a whole crew of tweekers, ex-cons nervously calling their parole officers, a poor lady with no front teeth whose boyfriend had dumped her in Bismark with no money and no winter clothes...No buses, no cars to be had. I had to give up and go back to New York.

My read is, it's the last hurrah. You'll see them trying the same stunt everywhere now.

Hats off to you for the effort.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Any of you guys have time on Sat...


http://pol.moveon.org/event/events/index.html?action_id=238

 

[JMohegan]

Any of you guys have time on Sat...


http://pol.moveon.org/event/events/index.html?action_id=238

Yes, I'll be there, though it feels like fighting the Death Star by shaking one's fist.

 

[rosco rathbone]

http://www.tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/UBEN-8EDJYS?OpenDocument

t
Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin' s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

How can that be? Because the "contributions" consist of money that employees chose to take as deferred wages – as pensions when they retire – rather than take immediately in cash. The same is true with the health care plan. If this were not so a serious crime would be taking place, the gift of public funds rather than payment for services.

Thus, state workers are not being asked to simply "contribute more" to Wisconsin' s retirement system (or as the argument goes, "pay their fair share" of retirement costs as do employees in Wisconsin' s private sector who still have pensions and health insurance). They are being asked to accept a cut in their salaries so that the state of Wisconsin can use the money to fill the hole left by tax cuts and reduced audits of corporations in Wisconsin.

 

[midwestyankee]

Leaving aside the point that multiple, complex factors have an impact on test scores, my inner stats geek gets pissed off when crap borne of such specious methodology flies around.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...union-supporters-say-wisconsin-test-scores-v/

The Wisconsin Democratic Party took that claim off their website when challenged. Possibly Sullivan will issue a retraction as well.

Had the original post been based on the more recent - and less dramatic - data, the larger point would still be valid: to argue that eliminating collective bargaining for teachers will, of itself, improve educational results is ridiculously weak. And yet that's what an awful lot of people seem to want to believe. Sometimes, JM, the precision of details is not the issue; it's the larger point.

 

[Netzach]

I actually tried to go there, and timed it perfectly wrong.

I got stuck in the Chicago bus station in a storm for 12 hours with a whole crew of tweekers, ex-cons nervously calling their parole officers, a poor lady with no front teeth whose boyfriend had dumped her in Bismark with no money and no winter clothes...No buses, no cars to be had. I had to give up and go back to New York.

My read is, it's the last hurrah. You'll see them trying the same stunt everywhere now.

Damn, dude. Way to make me look lazy, it's only 3 hours. Chicago bus station memories though, ahh.

To be fair to the irate, health care in the private sector sucks and I don't know anyone with a "pension" whatsoever. You're lucky if you get IRA contributions ever and within 5 years if then. For what they're worth. The problem is that people are about as smart as dogs and willing to fight over table scraps to the death. I think that people may have to take it all the way back to 1920 before they realize why it needed to change in the first place.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I think that people may have to take it all the way back to 1920 before they realize why it needed to change in the first place.

Bingo!

 

[rosco rathbone]

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011...gyptian-labor-uprising-against-rubinites.html

 

[rosco rathbone]

Very interesting:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/the-reason-republicans-de_b_829531.html

 

[Netzach]

Very interesting:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/the-reason-republicans-de_b_829531.html

Yeah. but, but the LEFT invited them in with Carter. Jesus as the antidote to Nixon - a good Christian guy has to be good. The right was watching the playbook and ran with it - ran ALL the way.

You can still win an election here (MN), as DFL, by consulting Jesus regularly for what to do. As long as you're not talking in tongues or something. I wish we'd get cynical about that shit again actually.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Yeah. but, but the LEFT invited them in with Carter. Jesus as the antidote to Nixon - a good Christian guy has to be good. The right was watching the playbook and ran with it - ran ALL the way.

You can still win an election here (MN), as DFL, by consulting Jesus regularly for what to do. As long as you're not talking in tongues or something. I wish we'd get cynical about that shit again actually.

I don't know if I'd associate Carter so strongly with "the Left". Most of the big "left" initiatives such as Humphrey-Hawkins got nowhere on his watch.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

Yeah. but, but the LEFT invited them in with Carter. Jesus as the antidote to Nixon - a good Christian guy has to be good. The right was watching the playbook and ran with it - ran ALL the way.

Yeah, they arrived with Bible-toting Carter, but they went home with Reagan – and never left.

 

[Netzach]

I don't know if I'd associate Carter so strongly with "the Left". Most of the big "left" initiatives such as Humphrey-Hawkins got nowhere on his watch.

I'm borrowing the national narrative for a moment - this is your brain on Murdoch. To be fair, though, my point is that the camel's nose wasn't where most people think it is - one second of being asleep at the wheel and thinking "how bad can a little Jesus be" leads to this - religion tests to show that you're not corrupt to the point where all you have to do is call on Jesus and you can't BE corrupted, of course.

I don't think this strategy is working for them though. Oh it's getting some really loud coverage, but look at the NYT poll. Most people are not sitting there going "oh those GREEDY sons of bitches with their TEACHING jobs"

Yeah, I know that liberal Jew run blah blah blah - bottom line there IS a silent majority now. Nothing polls 2 in 3 that incorrectly. Nothing. And it wants the tea party to STFU not ten seconds after it was elected in at 2 percent margins. I think the people who voted GOP/Tea as a reaction are going to be at least as disappointed when there is no coming of jobs as actual liberals are with Obama. They're going to be coughing on their accusations of pollyanna pixie dust. In the case of WI - you tell me. This guy gets 52 percent of the vote, but the state is polling stronger that they think he's a douchenozzle every day.

1500 pink slips are coming down - because THE RIGHT TO BARGAIN EVER AGAIN MUST DIE - or the state budget cannot be balanced. Even when they've taken the cuts to balance it. Look Badgers, you VOTED for him.

Basically voters lack comprehension completely.

I think people are finally beginning to locate their own interests in a way that the mainstream (d and r) is missing. Somewhere in all the noise. But then they're just going to flail and not add 2 and 2.

 

[rktktvi]

So they discovered a bunch of .22 calibre rounds laying around the building in Wisconsin. And they're upset. So it made me wonder... why is it a big deal now, but a couple of summers ago, it was their God given right to carry loaded guns to political rallies? All that talk about watering the tree of liberty isn't so funny if you're the one potentially providing the water, I suppose.

Bullets don't belong in this argument any more than they belonged in the other one. Sorry if I enjoy the hypocrisy of the moment.

 

[Netzach]

So they discovered a bunch of .22 calibre rounds laying around the building in Wisconsin. And they're upset. So it made me wonder... why is it a big deal now, but a couple of summers ago, it was their God given right to carry loaded guns to political rallies? All that talk about watering the tree of liberty isn't so funny if you're the one potentially providing the water, I suppose.

Bullets don't belong in this argument any more than they belonged in the other one. Sorry if I enjoy the hypocrisy of the moment.

The guy was caught on the phone saying he wasn't above a plant. Remember that fox news anchor who got beat up but didn't.

 

[rktktvi]

The guy was caught on the phone saying he wasn't above a plant. Remember that fox news anchor who got beat up but didn't.

They found lots of bullets, but no guns. And isn't it odd that they're all the same calibre? And inexpensive, at that? Kinda like someone bought a box and sprinkled them around... as opposed to lots of different people having them (which would probably suggest them being different sizes... ). Besides, who ~really~ drops bullets?

 

[Netzach]

Someone on Huffpo was saying that unions are not needed anymore because people have the facebook and the twitter and can organize them damn selves - this wasn't coming from an anti labor asshat perspective but a "how can some of the problems with many unions be dealt with" one.

I dunno. Part of me thinks this is the prerogative of the middle class jerk but part of me thinks "well there's been some pretty disenfranchised people using the internet politically"

 

[rosco rathbone]

I'm borrowing the national narrative for a moment - this is your brain on Murdoch. To be fair, though, my point is that the camel's nose wasn't where most people think it is - one second of being asleep at the wheel and thinking "how bad can a little Jesus be" leads to this - religion tests to show that you're not corrupt to the point where all you have to do is call on Jesus and you can't BE corrupted, of course.

I don't think this strategy is working for them though. Oh it's getting some really loud coverage, but look at the NYT poll. Most people are not sitting there going "oh those GREEDY sons of bitches with their TEACHING jobs"

Yeah, I know that liberal Jew run blah blah blah - bottom line there IS a silent majority now. Nothing polls 2 in 3 that incorrectly. Nothing. And it wants the tea party to STFU not ten seconds after it was elected in at 2 percent margins. I think the people who voted GOP/Tea as a reaction are going to be at least as disappointed when there is no coming of jobs as actual liberals are with Obama. They're going to be coughing on their accusations of pollyanna pixie dust. In the case of WI - you tell me. This guy gets 52 percent of the vote, but the state is polling stronger that they think he's a douchenozzle every day.

1500 pink slips are coming down - because THE RIGHT TO BARGAIN EVER AGAIN MUST DIE - or the state budget cannot be balanced. Even when they've taken the cuts to balance it. Look Badgers, you VOTED for him.

Basically voters lack comprehension completely.

I think people are finally beginning to locate their own interests in a way that the mainstream (d and r) is missing. Somewhere in all the noise. But then they're just going to flail and not add 2 and 2.

That's how I feel on my good days. On the bad ones, not so much.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Someone on Huffpo was saying that unions are not needed anymore because people have the facebook and the twitter and can organize them damn selves - this wasn't coming from an anti labor asshat perspective but a "how can some of the problems with many unions be dealt with" one.

I dunno. Part of me thinks this is the prerogative of the middle class jerk but part of me thinks "well there's been some pretty disenfranchised people using the internet politically"

Mike Lind, who I almost always think is great, feels the same way. I totally disagree.

 

[Netzach]

Mike Lind, who I almost always think is great, feels the same way. I totally disagree.

Right. Just 'cause theoretically it CAN be done doesn't mean it should be done like that.