VE seeking advice

[Emerald_Dragon]

Hey guys I am a total newbie and just happened to be cruising around when I caught Sexylaila's name. She happens to be editing for me (no I don't think I am the person being discussed) and is doing a good job.

As a writer I have absolutely no problem with an editor seeking help and advice from others on my work. As long as I am not named and no one else can identify me what the hell is the harm? I do agree that an editor should be blunt about what they think as long as it is constructive criticism with specific advice about making it better. Every writer wants to be told they are great but the only ones that are have paid their dues in the rewrite department. If a writer can't handle advice ment to make it better then they shouldn't be writing.

By the way I think Lady C and sr71lt should both be lawyers. You guys seem to be able to pick the slightest cues and run with them! No offense ment. It is kinda nice to be able to read the arguements and pick up personalities of the people writing!!

 

[LadyCibelle]

Hey guys I am a total newbie and just happened to be cruising around when I caught Sexylaila's name. She happens to be editing for me (no I don't think I am the person being discussed) and is doing a good job.

As a writer I have absolutely no problem with an editor seeking help and advice from others on my work. As long as I am not named and no one else can identify me what the hell is the harm? I do agree that an editor should be blunt about what they think as long as it is constructive criticism with specific advice about making it better. Every writer wants to be told they are great but the only ones that are have paid their dues in the rewrite department. If a writer can't handle advice ment to make it better then they shouldn't be writing.

By the way I think Lady C and sr71lt should both be lawyers. You guys seem to be able to pick the slightest cues and run with them! No offense ment. It is kinda nice to be able to read the arguements and pick up personalities of the people writing!!

Hey Emerald

Welcome to the EF. Glad to see a writer (you) who understands that if the editor asks for help of other editors, it doesn't mean that it's going against ethics or against the writer.

As for me being a lawyers....well you're not too far from the truth for myself and was married to a legal assistant for a number of years....looks like it rubbed off on me doubly.

One thing though, don't think I'm as confrontational and abrasive as it appears with my 'exchanges' with srwhatever. Most people would tell you I'm sweet as a lamb most of the time.

 

[sr71plt]

Hey guys I am a total newbie and just happened to be cruising around when I caught Sexylaila's name. She happens to be editing for me (no I don't think I am the person being discussed) and is doing a good job.

As a writer I have absolutely no problem with an editor seeking help and advice from others on my work. As long as I am not named and no one else can identify me what the hell is the harm? I do agree that an editor should be blunt about what they think as long as it is constructive criticism with specific advice about making it better. Every writer wants to be told they are great but the only ones that are have paid their dues in the rewrite department. If a writer can't handle advice ment to make it better then they shouldn't be writing.

By the way I think Lady C and sr71lt should both be lawyers. You guys seem to be able to pick the slightest cues and run with them! No offense ment. It is kinda nice to be able to read the arguements and pick up personalities of the people writing!!

I, conversely, will remain one person across the board (would otherwise be known as "two faced"?). I won't be sweet to some and declare war on others (like in an AH "Dear X" letter) and do everything I can think of, underhanded or not, to "win" my war.

I do have a law degree--it's in international law, though, which doesn't have much use here.

I'm happy, though, that as a client, you're perfectly content with your editor revealing for all the world to see that she didn't figure out how to give a "client" bad news before hanging out her shingle. Buyer beware and all that.

 

[Max ODrive]

I, conversely, will remain one person across the board. I won't be sweet to some and declare war on others (like in an AH "Dear X" letter) and do everything I can think of, underhanded or not, to "win" my war.

I do have a law degree--it's in international law, though, which doesn't have much use here.

I'm happy, though, that as a client, you're perfectly content with your editor revealing for all the world to see that she didn't figure out how to give a "client" bad news before hanging out her shingle. Buyer beware and all that.

LOL! Yup.. you're an arrogant prick in any of the threads I've seen you in.. so why should this one be any different? A lawyer? I'd believe it. Most lawyers I've ever met were arrogant pricks, so to find that you're one of their ilk comes as no surprise.

By usurping this thread to belittle others and to try to enhance your status by "bragging" just how "politically correct" you are, all you've done is to not only remove the focus from the important part of the thread (getting help on a tricky problem) and re-focus it on the part thats least important (a specific person it may be about).

You can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that this thread is about one specific author. You can suspect it is. You can infer it is. The unnamed author could be anyone in SL's stable, or in another editor's stable that asked SL about it, and she merely took the initiative to ask what to do under said circumstances.

And you've even missed the "big picture" aspect of this thread. 10 or 20 years from now, when another editor is having problems with a less-than-proficient writer and comes to this thread for help, instead of finding it, he/she/it will have to wade through your incessant crap in an attempt to winnow out the main truth of the thread.

Now, I know that obfuscation is your stock in trade, but please. In a help thread, unless you've got something worth contributing that has a positive constructive element to it, why not just shut the fuck up?

You'd save us all a lot of bandwidth if you did...

 

[sr71plt]

Deleted by Moderatord

What this did say, and it certainly did bring something to the forum, and "Lady" C is violating the rules of the forum by deleting it, was:

*sigh* Do we really have to go here again? This doesn't have anything to do with an author being specifically identified. It has to do with a VE revealing for all to see that they don't know what the fuck they are doing before they start doing it. Are you so dumb that you can't see that? Umm, yes I guess so.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

hello all!

thanks in advance for your thoughtful replies

i have a new author, very new (this is his/her first submission), and i don't know exactly how i should let him/her know that i cannot perform a miracle and make the story readable, without being bitchy. any advice on how to deal with this?

besides many, many, many spelling mistakes and endless punctuation errors, the story is very disorganized and difficult to follow. the characters are not well defined/developed. further, there isn't much of a plot.

it isn't that i lack the skill to make the story decent, it is just that i would practically have to rewrite it, thus it is no longer his/her story but mine.

Sexy asked for help and I volunteered, and edited the story after sexy did (it took a couple of evenings). The writing does contain many errors (from spelling and grammar to tenses) which I pointed out, but it also has promise. in my estimation. The writer needs more mentoring in my opinion, which I will provide if the writer desires.

Just wondering... sr71plt, were you really an SR-71 pilot? And why are we so blessed with your presence? What is your intention... hostile or friendly?

My intentions are well-meaning, to help someone know what it's like to express themselves through writing. What are you offering?

 

[sr71plt]

Sexy asked for help and I volunteered, and edited the story after sexy did (it took a couple of evenings). The writing does contain many errors (from spelling and grammar to tenses) which I pointed out, but it also has promise. in my estimation. The writer needs more mentoring in my opinion, which I will provide if the writer desires.

That was/is quite helpful and nice of you.

Just wondering... sr71plt, were you really an SR-71 pilot?

Yes, I was--back in the dark ages of Vietnam. You don't remain an SR71 pilot for long, though (the necessary rapid reflexes age out quickly). After an interim career in U.S. intelligence in East Asia and the Middle East, I now write novels and edit books for publishers (mainly about other spies of one form or another). (I have pretty much my whole background threading through some of the stories posted here at Lit.)

And why are we so blessed with your presence? What is your intention... hostile or friendly?

As you should very well know, I came here first to answer a simple editorial question you asked--because the publishing industry has established an answer to that question. And for that, I was raked over the coals with what cousin Matilda's best friend thought maybe the right answer was--which pretty much defined the expertise/"helpfulness" level of what's going on here.

And then I went away but came back when Lady C started stalking and trolling me on other pages in the forum. (She doesn't seem able to see the connection of cause and effect--although in the last couple of days I'd thought the lightbulb had gone on over her head.)

My intentions are well-meaning, to help someone know what it's like to express themselves through writing.

Yes, I've always sensed that this was true and I've even posted that on threads here--I think they may be on postings Lady C hasn't erased in her onesided erasing effort that violates the rules of the forum.

What are you offering?

Well, I tried offering and could offer straightforward background on questions like you posted on "OK/Okay" with citations of industry "best practice" and the authorities to be considered and accepted or not as the questioner wanted--if that could be done without being personally attacked each time I did it. (A little nervous and defensive are we, VEs?)

I wouldn't offer to edit, though. First, Lady C would erase any offer I made. Second, I'm pretty busy writing and posting myself. Third, I actually do review stories for some of the authors posting here already who came to me directly. And fourth, I recognize what an effort and sacrifice it is for writers here to offer mentoring and "second eyes" for other writers--and I've posted that here several times as well.

Thanks for asking and being mostly civil about it.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Been There, et al

just to clarify, i do not believe that i have read any of Tzah's work, unless it is an alt.

i have no problem with this thread being removed if it would resolve other member's concerns!

i was well aware of the fact that any of my author's could read this post, but i decided that it was more beneficial for this particular author, to possibly sacrifice my reputation to give them the most appropriate assistance.

i do appreciate ALL replies and the resulting conversation.

You're a conscientious person doing what you think is right, there's no shame in asking for help. I've sought counsel with LadyC and CC both. I'll be more than happy to continue to back you up And appreciative thanks for your collaborative efforts.

Threads, once started, do make unexpected turns. Like you, I've felt bad when others were hurt by statements made on a thread I started that were unsolicted and unintended. Not your fault!

Keep truckin'!

 

[AsylumSeeker]

"Mostly civil" ?? I've been nothing but respectful in my mind, but given the heated nature of these postings I understand your misgivings.

Anyway, thanks for your military service <shake>. I'm not paying lipservice, my intention is heartfelt. I'd be interested in reading a story about your first 'ride'.

I haven't figured you out yet, which I'm trying to do. I love LadyC, but her opposition to you doesn't pit us against one another automatically. I'm just a retired USAF NCO with a 9-5 job that's trying to help people that yearn to write, write well.

And you?

 

[sr71plt]

"Mostly civil" ?? I've been nothing but respectful in my mind, but given the heated nature of these postings I understand your misgivings.

Anyway, thanks for your military service <shake>. I'm not paying lipservice, my intention is heartfelt. I'd be interested in reading a story about your first 'ride'.

I haven't figured you out yet, which I'm trying to do. I love LadyC, but her opposition to you doesn't pit us against one another automatically. I'm just a retired USAF NCO with a 9-5 job that's trying to help people that yearn to write, write well.

And you?

The "mostly" was because there were a few "are you still beating your wife?" phrases in your posting. (Sorry, propaganda analysis was one of my specialities in intelligence.) I'll be thrilled to see exchanges come down to just information/opinion exchange levels, though.

Will it make a difference that I didn't fly the Blackbird for the USAF? I was CIA and we flew our own for our own purposes (but they were maintained by the USAF, so I blessed the ground the Air Force mechanics walked on each time I came down safely). But I like to think that 17 years of a 30-year career, essentially behind enemy lines and without the "protection" of the Geneva Accords was somewhat equal to having served in the military.

I think I probably misunderstand your reading a story about "my first ride" question. I only post erotica here. If I write something mainstream I have a market for it in the mainstream. So, my first response was that my first ride could be found detailed in my "Egyptian Initiation." But, upon thought, I doubt that's the kind of "ride" you meant. And then I thought, oh SR71 ride, and so I thought, well my story "Cockpitting." But that was not only the wrong kind of "ride," but also the bird was on the ground through the whole episode. So, I'll just say, I haven't written about the thrill and terrifying fear of going up in an SR71 for the first time anywhere that you could read it. All I can say is that I felt a lot better flying that high over Vietnam than I would have felt on the ground there.

As far as trying to help writers present their writing as well as it can be presented, yeah, I do a lot of that--and not always for money, either.

The motto of editing: "First do no harm." (which I've always taken to require knowing what you are doing before doing it.)

 

[AsylumSeeker]

The "mostly" was because there were a few "are you still beating your wife?" phrases in your posting. (Sorry, propaganda analysis was one of my specialities in intelligence.) I'll be thrilled to see exchanges come down to just information/opinion exchange levels, though.

Will it make a difference that I didn't fly the Blackbird for the USAF? I was CIA and we flew our own for our own purposes (but they were maintained by the USAF, so I blessed the ground the Air Force mechanics walked on each time I came down safely). But I like to think that 17 years of a 30-year career, essentially behind enemy lines and without the "protection" of the Geneva Accords was somewhat equal to having served in the military.

I think I probably misunderstand your reading a story about "my first ride" question. I only post erotica here. If I write something mainstream I have a market for it in the mainstream. So, my first response was that my first ride could be found detailed in my "Egyptian Initiation." But, upon thought, I doubt that's the kind of "ride" you meant. And then I thought, oh SR71 ride, and so I thought, well my story "Cockpitting." But that was not only the wrong kind of "ride," but also the bird was on the ground through the whole episode. So, I'll just say, I haven't written about the thrill and terrifying fear of going up in an SR71 for the first time anywhere that you could read it. All I can say is that I felt a lot better flying that high over Vietnam than I would have felt on the ground there.

As far as trying to help writers present their writings as well as it can be presented, yeah, I do a lot of that--and not always for money, either.

The motto of editing: "First do no harm." (which I've always taken to require knowing what you are doing before doing it.)

Having been an aircrew member for most of my 20 years in the USAF, I was merely seeking a common ground. I'm not checking up on you.

I seek friends, not egos. You can still cach that bus. <Hoping you will>

 

[sr71plt]

Having been an aircrew member for most of my 20 years in the USAF, I was merely seeking a common ground. I'm not checking up on you.

I seek friends, not egos. You can still cach that bus. <Hoping you will>

I didn't think you were checking up on me. But I got that, "oh Air Force," a lot when I mentioned what I flew (got it about every day when I attended the Army War College in Carisle--and there it wasn't a really good idea to be connected to the Air Force). And if you were any part of keeping the planes in the air and the pilots not doing nose dives into the ground, you're OK/Okay/okay/'K with me.

 

[snooper]

Kneel, varlets!

We should all bow down, or even make obeisance, since we are in the presence of an extremely exceptional person. There cannot be many Blackbird pilots, let alone Blackbird pilots who have degrees in international law, Masters in editing, and Masters in publishing.

Even rarer are CIA agents who willingly identify themselves as such.


Edited to add:
Abject apologies as I missed out a Masters in Creative Writing.

 

[CopyCarver]

We should all bow down, or even make obeisance, since we are in the presence of an extremely exceptional person. There cannot be many Blackbird pilots, let alone Blackbird pilots who have degrees in international law, Masters in editing, and Masters in publishing.

Even rarer are CIA agents who willingly identify themselves as such.


Edited to add:
Abject apologies as I missed out a Masters in Creative Writing.

Don’t forget the advanced degree in Animal Husbandry he holds in conjunction with the Masters in Creative Writing. It’s one thing to create more absurdist fiction than Ionesco and Beckett combined, but piling the feces of male bovine to ziggurat-like height requires agricultural skills as well.

 

[LadyCibelle]

Gentlemen,

I have only one word for you: MOUAH!

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Don't Think So, But...

SR71, I'm a decent person and was tryng to reach out in a friendly manner. But I'm not buying the story. With my USAF ecperience (clearance and all) I suspect you're full of it.

I'm not giving up on you yet!

Is there a person in there that wants a friend? I can be one if you choose.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Gentlemen,

I have only one word for you: MOUAH!

Not sure if that's good or bad.

 

[Guest]

I made overtures, he wasn't interested.

Apparently I'm one of the "regulars", which is an unpardonable sin in his eyes.

I won't try again.

Good luck, though, AS.

 

[sr71plt]

SR71, I'm a decent person and was tryng to reach out in a friendly manner. But I'm not buying the story. With my USAF ecperience (clearance and all) I suspect you're full of it.

I'm not giving up on you yet!

Is there a person in there that wants a friend? I can be one if you choose.

Happily, my reality doesn't depend on you believing me (but if you know anything about the SR71/Blackbird/Habu, you'll know where they were based in the 70s--which is no longer a secret--Beale and Offutt in the States and Kadena and Utapao overseas). I could say I don't believe you're in the USAF, either--but that wouldn't make any difference here to you, me, or anyone else--or have anything to do with whether or not we can be cordial with each other on a chat board.

All the rest going on here is straight out of the first scene of MacBeth. You can either choose to be in that scene or not.

 

[sr71plt]

I made overtures, he wasn't interested.

Apparently I'm one of the "regulars", which is an unpardonable sin in his eyes.

I won't try again.

Good luck, though, AS.

I must have missed those "overtures." Any cordiality I'm shown will be met with cordiality, though--or an apology if I misinterpreted the "overture."

On our last "encounter," you were the one who dropped on my head from out of the blue with a jaded perception--which others pointed out to you. (And, you notice, I followed up with no retort at all, even when you made assertions I don't think are true. Just let you back out without a single comment from me. I take it you didn't recognize that as any sort of signal.)

 

[LadyCibelle]

Not sure if that's good or bad.

For the gentlemen concerned I'm sure it was good.....for the one not concerned it definitely wasn't.

Don't worry, AS; you'll catch the hang of it and will understand quickly enough.

 

[Guest]

I must have missed those "overtures." Any cordiality I'm shown will be met with cordiality, though--or an apology if I misinterpreted the "overture."

On our last "encounter," you were the one who dropped on my head from out of the blue with a jaded perception--which others pointed out to you. (And, you notice, I followed up with no retort at all, even when you made assertions I don't think are true. Just let you back out without a single comment from me. I take it you didn't recognize that as any sort of signal.)

No.

You met cordiality with arrogant derision.

And the thread you are discussing? This is what was posted.

You said this to cantdog, who is a brilliant man.

Originally Posted by sr71plt
Well, um, not used and quite possibly not covered with sufficient communication up front (sounds like you don't have Word)--but not "useless." Word is the standard for manuscript work in the world of publishing, and the Word tracking change program (that "kind of redline thing") is standard in publishing as well. Sounds like you just didn't clear up between you that you apparently don't use standard publishing systems/functions in creating your manuscripts. And, um, if you plan on doing a lot of writing for publicaton, you might best get Word and learn what the tracking change system is and how to use it.

I said this -

Arrogance, thy name is sr71plt.

You said this, which is your typical response to anything posted by a woman from Lit. Women. You seem to focus all of your negativity on female Literotica members.

Originally Posted by sr71plt
Ah, back to the stalking and trolling are we? (I continue to marvel how my stalkers track me down when they claim they have me on ignore.)

Could you maybe point out what was arrogant about anything I posted?

I said this -

Actually, cant quoted you. That's why I replied.

I did check to see your response to my post, however.

I'm a troll? I'm a stalker? Hmmm. Cantdog has been out of town for weeks, he's a dear friend, I saw he had posted and was curious about his opinion on this issue.

You give yourself way too much credit for the actions of others around here. I haven't given you a second thought. Did you actually think I followed you to this thread?

As to your arrogance? You don't find anything arrogant about this post? Because quite frankly, most everyone else would.

Whenever ANYONE says anything in disagreement with you, you attack them as being "regulars" and "gangbangers" and of following you around the threads for the purpose of causing disruption.

Do you honestly believe that's an accurate assessment?

And by the way, several members on that thread (ok, the TWO members who supported you) sent me PMs saying that Yes, you were an ass, but that you did occasionally have intelligent comments. They discussed your age as a mitigating factor. My dad served in Vietnam, too, so I try to think what he would be posting were he on Lit. I strive for patience and understanding.

But as I said on that other thread, life is too short to attempt to deal with someone who insults and belittles you at every turn.

 

[Guest]

So from that, you interpret that I "dropped on your head from out of the blue with a jaded perception?"

Can you not see what you yourself posted?

Edited to add -

Shang said this -

Now, now, Sarahh. This is a perfectly harmless post.

Quote:
Well, um, not used and quite possibly not covered with sufficient communication up front (sounds like you don't have Word)--but not "useless." Word is the standard for manuscript work in the world of publishing, and the Word tracking change program (that "kind of redline thing") is standard in publishing as well. Sounds like you just didn't clear up between you that you apparently don't use standard publishing systems/functions in creating your manuscripts. And, um, if you plan on doing a lot of writing for publicaton, you might best get Word and learn what the tracking change system is and how to use it.


I mean, unless he'd somehow known more about Cant's attempts at "sufficient communication" and "clearing up" the issue of him not using Word. But barring something like that, it's a perfectly reasonable post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cant
We had sent six emails back and forth over a period of many days before I sent her the file, because I had to make absolutely certain that she understood I don't own Word and can't read Word files, and that she could read rich text files all right.


Something like that, for instance.



Shang's post wasn't complimentary to you at all, of course. Or did you miss the sarcasm?


Shang did follow it up with this post -


Quote:
Originally Posted by slyc_willie
Okay, so you've had your differences. Don't let them bother you. The guy actually has some sound advice now and then.

He absolutely and truly does.


Not a ringing endorsement. Just an acknowledgement that despite your arrogance you manage to have some sound advice now and then.

 

[snooper]

Gentlemen,

I have only one word for you: MOUAH!

Not sure if that's good or bad.

Your guess is as good as mine. Obviously she is not addressing me - I'm no gentleman, as any of my ex-wives will attest.

 

[sr71plt]

So from that, you interpret that I "dropped on your head from out of the blue with a jaded perception?"

Can you not see what you yourself posted?

Edited to add -

Shang said this -

Now, now, Sarahh. This is a perfectly harmless post.

Quote:
Well, um, not used and quite possibly not covered with sufficient communication up front (sounds like you don't have Word)--but not "useless." Word is the standard for manuscript work in the world of publishing, and the Word tracking change program (that "kind of redline thing") is standard in publishing as well. Sounds like you just didn't clear up between you that you apparently don't use standard publishing systems/functions in creating your manuscripts. And, um, if you plan on doing a lot of writing for publicaton, you might best get Word and learn what the tracking change system is and how to use it.


I mean, unless he'd somehow known more about Cant's attempts at "sufficient communication" and "clearing up" the issue of him not using Word. But barring something like that, it's a perfectly reasonable post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cant
We had sent six emails back and forth over a period of many days before I sent her the file, because I had to make absolutely certain that she understood I don't own Word and can't read Word files, and that she could read rich text files all right.


Something like that, for instance.



Shang's post wasn't complimentary to you at all, of course. Or did you miss the sarcasm?


Shang did follow it up with this post -


Quote:
Originally Posted by slyc_willie
Okay, so you've had your differences. Don't let them bother you. The guy actually has some sound advice now and then.

He absolutely and truly does.


Not a ringing endorsement. Just an acknowledgement that despite your arrogance you manage to have some sound advice now and then.

So, what you are saying is that I might as well have responded to your attacking posts on that thread because you just want to fight(?) Well, we now know who just wants to fight, don't we?