What is a "fake" submissive?

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[chris9]

Oh Chris, I think all of those thoughts have a very valid place in this discussion; thank you for bringing them up.

I need to digest what you've written for a bit... I'll be back.

(Sigh- edited for being a typo queen)

I'm glad. Now if only I could make some sense of what I have written...

 

[Daddyslilpet]

How do you know you're submissive without trying? And how do you try if you have this romantic notion of a relationship, don't want to try without feelings, but don't want to involve someone who knows what they want in a relationship where you don't know if this has any potential of working?
Are you fake, or wannabe, or 'real' submissive, before you know for sure? If you say you don't know (yet), are you still fake?

This might not have much or anything to do with the topic of this thread, I don't really know. It's just the thoughts that crossed my mind while reading. I don't expect any answers, I'm not sure there really are some.

Ok, I guess I don't know what I'm saying at all. I might come back in the morning when I'm sober again and edit around.

chris9, it sounds to me like what you are is call sub-curious. You won't know if you're truly submissive until you get your own thoughts and feelings together about it, and then try it out for yourself with someone you trust explicitly. At least that's the way I feel about it.

I think a submissive tends to "know" deep down that they are submissive, or at least has the tendencies towards being submissive early on in life. However, it may take years before that comes to the surface. For some it happens earlier in life.

I know, I know... clear as mud. There are no clear answers. Submission is as individual as we are. What works for me won't work for you and vice versa. The thing to do is just do what feels right to you and not worry about what everyone else thinks. If your partner (when you get one if you don't already have one) is ok with everything that happens in the relationship you have with them then that is all that matters in this life.

I hope that helps you a little bit.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I believe this disqualifies you from being DVS.


Thank you, VelvetDarkness, for your question on linking single posts, and thank you, AA and rebecca for your answers. I've been wondering for quite a while now, but didn't want to ask...

My mother always said, quoting somebody or other:-

"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and leave no doubt."

Which always begs the question; "How on Earth do you learn new stuff?"

And I'm too scatty, I always get caught out if I try the aloof 'I know everything' stance, even for 5 mins. If I had a brain I'd be dangerous. There'd be a 'NO-FLY" zone over my head.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

How do you know you're submissive without trying? And how do you try if you have this romantic notion of a relationship, don't want to try without feelings, but don't want to involve someone who knows what they want in a relationship where you don't know if this has any potential of working?
Are you fake, or wannabe, or 'real' submissive, before you know for sure? If you say you don't know (yet), are you still fake?

This might not have much or anything to do with the topic of this thread, I don't really know. It's just the thoughts that crossed my mind while reading. I don't expect any answers, I'm not sure there really are some.

Ok, I guess I don't know what I'm saying at all. I might come back in the morning when I'm sober again and edit around.

As a fairly ineperienced sub I can identify with this question because I've asked myself this a lot of late.

Like most newbies, my fantasies and the things I'm aroused by are a long way further down the line than I am now. I cannot say at this point whether making fantasy A or B a reality one day in the future would be pleasurable or fulfilling for me or not at this point. The idea of it turns me on immeasurably and I may have a clear idea of the risk/pleasure/discomfort I can expect but I cannot know whether I'd enjoy A or B at all.

I also know that as I continue on my journey I'll become ready for certain things in RL and the more challenging stuff will gradually become less tabboo accordingly. I must also though, be prepared to one day wake up and say, "This is just not for me at all." It's part of the bargain I made with myself when I started getting into all this and I won't break it. I don't expect this to happen as submission is a huge part of my sexual identity. As a lifestyle however, the foundation of my sexlife rather than an additional hobby, I have to consider the possibility that it just won't be for me in practice.

When I was a kid I always wanted to be a nurse. I knew it would involve vomit, blood, other people's pain and death but I still wanted it. I started working in care and applied for training not knowing whether I could truly do the job, only that I wanted to. Some of my classmates did drop out, having discovered, even after making a committment like university, that nursing was something they simply couldn't do after all. I'm now a nurse and enjoy it every day that I work.

I don't yet know if I'm truly a sub, I know I truly want to be. Neither sentiment is fake IMHO.

 

[brioche]

As a fairly ineperienced sub I can identify with this question because I've asked myself this a lot of late.

Like most newbies, my fantasies and the things I'm aroused by are a long way further down the line than I am now. I cannot say at this point whether making fantasy A or B a reality one day in the future would be pleasurable or fulfilling for me or not at this point. The idea of it turns me on immeasurably and I may have a clear idea of the risk/pleasure/discomfort I can expect but I cannot know whether I'd enjoy A or B at all.

I also know that as I continue on my journey I'll become ready for certain things in RL and the more challenging stuff will gradually become less tabboo accordingly. I must also though, be prepared to one day wake up and say, "This is just not for me at all." It's part of the bargain I made with myself when I started getting into all this and I won't break it. I don't expect this to happen as submission is a huge part of my sexual identity. As a lifestyle however, the foundation of my sexlife rather than an additional hobby, I have to consider the possibility that it just won't be for me in practice.

When I was a kid I always wanted to be a nurse. I knew it would involve vomit, blood, other people's pain and death but I still wanted it. I started working in care and applied for training not knowing whether I could truly do the job, only that I wanted to. Some of my classmates did drop out, having discovered, even after making a committment like university, that nursing was something they simply couldn't do after all. I'm now a nurse and enjoy it every day that I work.

I don't yet know if I'm truly a sub, I know I truly want to be. Neither sentiment is fake IMHO.

You seem to be where I was about six months ago.
Now I'm in the process of finding the right RL partner to go further with.

 

[chris9]

Thank you for answering my questions. I understand where you are coming from.
I believe these questions entered my brain when reading this thread, because some of the descriptions of a fake sub would match me if I enter into a D/s relationship. The most obvious one were these:

>snip<...someone who claims to be a submissive, but is, in fact, a "do me" bottom who's long list of things they need in order to "submit" are not "NEEDS" but a shopping list of fetish "do me's" so they can get off.

I can just see me doing this. First, I have a pretty good idea what I enjoy sexually, at least among those BDSM activities I have already tried. There would be a huge list of things I'm curious about but that are off-limits in early stages of the relationship (like the first half year, not the first two dates).
Second, I've never actually submitted. I don't know how to do it. I don't know how far I want to submit. Which of the three types of submissive Rebecca introduced I am. I could be either. Or neither.
I don't think I'm fake anything though, as long as I say exactly this.

I must also though, be prepared to one day wake up and say, "This is just not for me at all." It's part of the bargain I made with myself when I started getting into all this and I won't break it.

If I have a bargain with myself that runs along those lines, and I tell a potential partner about it, so he knows that there is no guarantee that I am submissive, I don't think it makes a fake submissive. On the other hand, not knowing for sure, and not telling, could be considered fake submissive.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I agree with this statement, and find it very useful to ask the question - why?

Why would someone desperately want to be something they are not?

I ask that question often and i have said more then once that this is not always a fun place to be.
But then again i often wonder what it would be like or me to be satisfied with what the world calls "normal".
So maybe that is the answer?

 

[JMohegan]

I ask that question often and i have said more then once that this is not always a fun place to be.
But then again i often wonder what it would be like or me to be satisfied with what the world calls "normal".
So maybe that is the answer?

Curiosity? I suppose that could explain part of it. I really don't know.

But have you noticed that we (general Community "we") have created a mystique that sort of makes Dom and sub out to be quarterback of the football team and homecoming queen?

I understand the urge to celebrate that which brings us joy. For example, a while ago I wrote that being in a relationship with a submissive woman makes me feel like Tarzan, Indiana Jones, and King of the Universe all at once. It really does. But that doesn't mean that every minute of the experience is swinging through the trees fantastic, and it also doesn't mean that this particular dynamic would work well for every guy. There are other ways to feel like Tarzan, etc.

I think the messages really do get confused, and the mystique spawns legions of people desperately trying to fit in a role that is not right for them, and is largely fictitious (in the way it is perceived) anyway.

 

[satindesire]

We reject the social hierarchy of perceived decency & fulfillment peaked by the model image of a church-going, heterosexual, monogamous, suburban, married couple practicing safe, clean, non-violent sex in the bedroom.

Not everyone in the BDSM lifestyle rejects that image of 'normality'. I happen to be a church-going, heterosexual, monogamous, suburban person. I'm not married YET but we also practice safe, clean, non-violent sex sometimes. But I totally see what you meant by that and I agree with you!

See, personally, our sex and our lives aren't always about BDSM. Sometimes we go DAYS without having anything close to a 'scene'. Sometimes he springs it on me suddeny, sometimes he tells me he wants to far in advance. Having a BDSM lifestyle is just as much subject to Real Life as any WASP-y vanilla relationship. I'm a sub, have always considered myself a sub since I knew what sex was and have always felt very comfortable and 'at home' with my path, but that doesn't mean that we're always in leather and chains and I'm showering in my collar. To look at us, you might think "What a cute couple!" You wouldn't for a second think "What a BDSM couple!" Unless you were a VERY good people-watcher and could see the deference I always give him.

Being a fake sub I think begins with this ideal that you're always gonna have this 'Gor' like life, in veils and ankle cuffs, dancing for your master's pleasure and serving him warm drinks over a blazing fireplace. I'm not saying that kind of life doesn't exsist, but most BDSMers aren't multi-millionaires capable of living that kind of lifestyle 24/7. And when they find out about the fact that they're not going to live this constant dream-like fantasy, they get confused, frustrated, and start making demands that they should KNOW won't happen.

I'm a sub, and I defer to my Dom. But that doesn't mean I don't have expectations. I've been flamed for saying this before but I don't think it should be "ALL ABOUT THE DOM/ME"...because people are human beings, no matter WHAT kind of title they give themselves. If you need monogamy in a relationship and your Dom/me cheats on you, are you gonna sit back and be crushed and depressed about it? Will you work on the relationship? Or will you leave? Just because you're a sub DOESN'T make you an automatic doormat. If he HITS me in an angry way, like my last boyfriend did, I'm leaving his happy ass. I'm a sub. Not a punching bag. Now, spankings...? Canings? In a BDSM scene, totally cricket with me. But if I wake him up in the middle of the night because I had a nightmare and he belts me across the face, that's when I call foul play. So a Dom/me or a sub, or anyone for that matter, should have expectations in a relationship.

BUT...I think that fake subs are also subs that take it too far, and are so confused about what they want they think that being a doormat will satisfy them. Maybe they're a special kind of machochist and just love that kind of stuff but IMHO, probably not.

So, to me, that's what entails a fake sub. Someone who either expects too much, or expects too little, because of their own fantasies getting in the way of what Real Life BDSM really is.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

If I have a bargain with myself that runs along those lines, and I tell a potential partner about it, so he knows that there is no guarantee that I am submissive, I don't think it makes a fake submissive. On the other hand, not knowing for sure, and not telling, could be considered fake submissive.

I agree completely. I can see how a newbie sub could get into a lot of trouble by enthusiastically claiming to be more experienced/certain than they are. Sexual bravado has many faces.

 

[myinnerslut]

well said satindesire

 

[JMohegan]

...someone who claims to be a submissive, but is, in fact, a "do me" bottom who's long list of things they need in order to "submit" are not "NEEDS" but a shopping list of fetish "do me's" so they can get off.

I can just see me doing this. First, I have a pretty good idea what I enjoy sexually, at least among those BDSM activities I have already tried. There would be a huge list of things I'm curious about but that are off-limits in early stages of the relationship (like the first half year, not the first two dates).

The submissive women with whom I have had intimate experiences have all had one thing in common. For reasons which I will never fully understand, but for which I will be eternally grateful, they have all had an intense desire to please *me*.

Don't ask me to explain this phenomenon. I really can't. Since I see things from the other side of the coin, I also don't know the answer to your question - how do you know for sure if you're submissive, if you've never met a guy who makes you feel that way? It really was an excellent question, though. Hopefully more submissives will step forward to help you answer it.

One thing I would urge you to do is to separate your self-analysis into two parts. Part 1 - am I submissive? Part 2 - am I a masochist? In my book, they are two very different things, and it is important to recognize the distinction between these tendencies in yourself.

I have seen women mocked (and their submissiveness questioned) for having too many hard limits, or hard limits that some consider to be basic sexual practices (anal, for example). I have also seen people dismissed as unsubmissive for having too many fetishes that they need, as Geoff says, "to get off".

My personal opinion is that submissiveness has absolutely nothing to do with the number of hard limits or fetishes that a person has.

There is a critical distinction to be made between desires being met in the moment, and desires being met at some point in the relationship overall. It seems reasonable to assume that Geoff's "do-me" phrase means he was referencing a particular moment or episode in the bedroom.

But I fail to see why a woman who craves scat play, needle play, fire play, etc., etc., etc. would enter into a relationship with a Dom who is unwilling or unable to satisfy these cravings *at some point* in the relationship.

Having a long list of fetishes doesn't mean she is not submissive. It just means she would be poorly matched with a Dom who does not share an interest in similar kink.

 

[satindesire]

Sexual bravado has many faces.

That's so true! And it's so dangerous, as well. Especially, as just an example that popped into my head, with things like breath play and anal...both of these things, when not properly 'adjusted' to (mind the pun ^_^) can be harmful or deadly! I feel no shame in admitting I don't have a lot of experience in things like basic rope bondage and whatnot...which happens to be a STAPLE in the BDSM lifestyle! (Kind of embarassing, but it's not like it makes ME a bad sub or a bad person...!) I don't know WHY someone would want to be deliberabtly untruthful about that kind of stuff when it can really get them into trouble!?

well said satindesire

Thank you so much. I was worried that I would get into a flamefest for being Pro-needs for the sub side of the BDSM spectrum. I've had it happen before and now when I talk about it, my palms sweat and my heartbeat gets all crazy (overdramatic, natch?! XD) What a comfort! Thank you!

Having a long list of fetishes doesn't mean she is not submissive. It just means she would be poorly matched with a Dom who does not share an interest in similar kink.

You know, this really made me think. I agree with that 100% and I know that being as how we're all human uh...,beings...(<_<) we're all in this BDSM world with our own eyes and our own opinions and desires and it's all so relative! You wouldn't know some Doms unless you saw them at a play party...and some are so obvious they practically walk around with a single tail sticking out of their back pocket! It's all about 'the fit', isn't it?

/Tangent alert!

It's like the idea (to me) of breast implants. Some say, "Ew, fake boobs!" and some say "Wow, those breasts are nice!" So fake to one person could be just right for another. Isn't it weird how a lot of subjects here on the board end up like that?

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I'm a sub, and I defer to my Dom. But that doesn't mean I don't have expectations. I've been flamed for saying this before but I don't think it should be "ALL ABOUT THE DOM/ME"...because people are human beings, no matter WHAT kind of title they give themselves. If you need monogamy in a relationship and your Dom/me cheats on you, are you gonna sit back and be crushed and depressed about it? Will you work on the relationship? Or will you leave? Just because you're a sub DOESN'T make you an automatic doormat. If he HITS me in an angry way, like my last boyfriend did, I'm leaving his happy ass. I'm a sub. Not a punching bag. Now, spankings...? Canings? In a BDSM scene, totally cricket with me. But if I wake him up in the middle of the night because I had a nightmare and he belts me across the face, that's when I call foul play. So a Dom/me or a sub, or anyone for that matter, should have expectations in a relationship.

Exactly right satindesire, I'm very glad you mentioned this. Right now I have a difficult time separating my needs and desires as a sub from the D/s dynamic that dictates whether and how they will be met.

I view my desire to submit as a need but part of consent for me means not only having my boundaries and limits respected but also having my wants and desires considered.

My conversations with Dom men have been mostly online, so I am aware that my experience is very limited. They all seem to be, very broadly speaking, one of 2 types;
1) The type who want to know all my fantasies and desires, where I see myself going as a sub etc.
2) Those who outline what they want in a sub and are fairly inflexible about what they will accept outside of their own agenda.

I know that my own lack of experience makes me cautious and reticent about giving too much control away at this stage. Right now I'm generally drawn to type 1 guys. Type 2 guys do arouse me if our desires and tastes correlate but I wonder sometimes whether my cautiousness lends a measure of duplicity to my submissiveness. I can see the danger of becoming one of those subs with a list of requirements and while I don't want that for myself, it's hard to know how much to relinquish at any given stage.

I'm sure it'll all come out in the wash but it's an interesting balancing act at the moment.

 

[JMohegan]

It's all about 'the fit', isn't it?

Yes. That is exactly what it's all about.

 

[chris9]

The submissive women with whom I have had intimate experiences have all had one thing in common. For reasons which I will never fully understand, but for which I will be eternally grateful, they have all had an intense desire to please *me*.

Don't ask me to explain this phenomenon. I really can't.

Thinking about it, maybe that's actually what makes one submissive, the desire to please. Which would give an answer to the 'what is a fake submissive' question: It's someone who does not want to please.

I realize that this is probably way too simple.
To me, it makes sense though. It does include all kinds of submissives, no matter if they only submit in the bedroom or 24/7. One can say they desire to please only sexually, or always, or in certain areas. It also includes inexperienced and experienced alike. One can have the desire to please, but not know how. Or be prepared to only please so far, because they are insecure about how far they want to do so and prefer staying on the safe side.

 

[RJMasters]

Thinking about it, maybe that's actually what makes one submissive, the desire to please. Which would give an answer to the 'what is a fake submissive' question: It's someone who does not want to please.

I realize that this is probably way too simple.
To me, it makes sense though. It does include all kinds of submissives, no matter if they only submit in the bedroom or 24/7. One can say they desire to please only sexually, or always, or in certain areas. It also includes inexperienced and experienced alike. One can have the desire to please, but not know how. Or be prepared to only please so far, because they are insecure about how far they want to do so and prefer staying on the safe side.

It makes sense to me as well

I see the desire to please to be a key part of a submissives persona.

This often is a way to know for sure if a submissive's motives are truly sincere or not. In my opion it has the ability to set far reaching tones within a relationship as to what specifically the submissive derives a deep sense of satisfaction.

This is not unlike, in my way of thinking, to a person's work ethic(not exactly the same but using this as an example to convey my thoughts). There is joy, pride, pleasure and satisfaction to be had in a job well done.

The desire to please is a genuine expression of self. All such a person could ask for is a Dominant who knows what they want and confidently asks for it. The Dominant by expressing their desire or will, gives way to opportunity for this self expression.

I have to chuckle at Eb's portrayal of submissive men who willingly prostrate themselves at her feet, willing and ready to be beat or sexually controlled. This may have the appearance that one is willing to please, the only problem is, it doesn't take into account that this is not what Eb finds pleasing. Fold her clothes, wash the dishes and cook her a delicious meal....and her engines are fired up.

Is it fair to say these type of offerings are genuine offers to please? Maybe, but mostly they are not because they are picking and choosing they way they wish to please rather than consider what truly pleases Eb.

So I think it often happens that a fake type of submission is offered under the guise to be pleasing, when the only type of pleasing the submissive is willing to do is with their own interests in mind. Nothing exposes this type of fake submission faster than to reject such an offer and relpace it with something else like mow my lawn.

I believe that a genuine desire to please is a key part of genuine submission, but what defines genuine to me is whether or not the real goal of such please, is to infact please the Dominant rather than ones own need.

 

[saw_man1]

There are also times when what one might consider to be fake submission is more accurately attributable to a lack of knowledge. A submissive may have a genuine desire to submit but is lacking knowledge of how best to please a specific Dominant.

 

[RJMasters]

I was worried that I would get into a flamefest for being Pro-needs for the sub side of the BDSM spectrum.

I don't know, your comments seemed to be pretty balanced to me. I think it unrealistic when you have two people in a relationship for it to be only about meeting the needs, wants and desires of just one of them.

Saying that I do think that there is a difference between having one's needs met through submitting and submitting in such a way to meet one's own needs. Nether maybe entirely wrong perse, but the latter sure has a propensity to slip off into topping from the bottom.

Is it wrong for the submissive to have expectations that their needs, wants and desires will be met? Of course not. But if a barter mentality becomes the source of wether or not submission will be forth coming or not, then chances are the relationship has compatibility issues or unrealistic expectations, probably due to a lack of honest communication.

Excahnge in a D/s relationship, which consequently is how needs are met for both parties, follow these three dynamic models.

1. Submissive gives to Dominant, and Dominant receives it.
2. Dominant takes(demands/requires) from submissive, and submissive gives.
3. Dominant gives to submissive, and submissive receives it.

What is of consequential importance to me is when exchange occurs via the models described above is, "what is the result?" Did the needs of both parties in the relationship get met? If not, why not? And it is from this point where many "valid and invalid" claims are made as to the fakeness or genuiness of a person's submission or Dominance.

 

[Masterisall]

What is a a fake submissive? Well, I'm new to this all but I think that a fake submissive is someone who promises the dominate something with no intention of actually doing it. Like saying they will do as you ask as long as it's within their "limits". I beleive everyone has their limits but when a person claims to be submissive and to abide my rules and commands and then just ignores them is fake. I also think that someone who thinks that BDSM is a /game/ is a fake sub/dom because I for one am serious about it. I don't say, hey lets play BDSM today!! I beleive it's a lifestyle.. Yet, I am new to this. Yes I have a gf, and yes I love her very much, yet she /claims/ to be submissive.

 

[chris9]

What is a a fake submissive? Well, I'm new to this all but I think that a fake submissive is someone who promises the dominate something with no intention of actually doing it. Like saying they will do as you ask as long as it's within their "limits". I beleive everyone has their limits but when a person claims to be submissive and to abide my rules and commands and then just ignores them is fake. I also think that someone who thinks that BDSM is a /game/ is a fake sub/dom because I for one am serious about it. I don't say, hey lets play BDSM today!! I beleive it's a lifestyle.. Yet, I am new to this. Yes I have a gf, and yes I love her very much, yet she /claims/ to be submissive.

I don't think that thinking BDSM is a game makes anyone a fake. SM falls under this, bondage. All of this can be done as a 'play', as a bedroom activity. It can be done sometimes, or often, or all the time. All of this falls under BDSM, not only the 24/7 D/s relationship. So it does not have to be a 'lifestyle'.

 

[Masterisall]

I don't think that thinking BDSM is a game makes anyone a fake. SM falls under this, bondage. All of this can be done as a 'play', as a bedroom activity. It can be done sometimes, or often, or all the time. All of this falls under BDSM, not only the 24/7 D/s relationship. So it does not have to be a 'lifestyle'.

Well, yes that is true. But see as for my GF she says that she thinks it is a lifestyle. And she says that she is submissive, yet she fails to actually submit. What she does it makes promises and breaks them. And only actually does something if it is something that /she/ wants to do, other wise. its "I'm not doing this" I do not call that submissive. OR maybe I am very confused. Like I said, I am new.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Well, yes that is true. But see as for my GF she says that she thinks it is a lifestyle. And she says that she is submissive, yet she fails to actually submit. What she does it makes promises and breaks them.And only actually does something if it is something that /she/ wants to do, other wise. its "I'm not doing this" I do not call that submissive. OR maybe I am very confused. Like I said, I am new.

Masterisall in my experience the integral part of knowing where you really stand in issues such as these is communication. Were these 'things' your girlfriend/submissive defined by you both as expectations within the relationship ? Obviously unrealistic to think a D/s couple can have pre discussed all facets of their life together as things can change and often.

However when faced with non compliance or change you need to be clear with each other once again by talking honestly what your new expectations are. If however clear expectations have been set and agreed to and she refuses on whim it is clear she is not submitting to you. Is it possible she is 'testing' you ?
(Not good practise in my opinion)

There is by degree what I call 'leap of faith submission' though that takes time and evolves as a submissive learns that in new areas that challenge her she can defer outcomes (ie submit irrespect of discussion having taken place and often the most satisfying type of submission for some ) to you because she has learned the trust she has imparted to you is not misfounded , even if at the time the wisdom in your choices for her are not immediate. That however takes time to build and cannot just be 'expected'.

May I respectfully suggest as you both are attempting to commit to D/s in the expression of 'Lifestyle' and you profess that you are new that you make dedicated time to read together topical information and discuss . I cannot stress enough how important honest communication is in all stages of the relationship. Preferably not a mid flight arguement because she has refused to'submit' but a calm examination of anything that may hinder or challenge the sucess of your partnership.

 

[saw_man1]

So- what is a "fake" submissive?

One that is pretending.