What is the Good in keeping Confederate Statues and such?

[sr71plt]

No, the easiest solution is to pull down all statues of traitors and pound them into rubble. But that's sub-optimal. IMHO they should be relocated to military cemeteries, to show which oath-breaking swine filled those acres of graves.

In Charlottesville yesterday, the suggestion was floated that we take Lee off the Lee statue (which has been hailed as a great work of art in its own right) and leave Traveler, his horse. The horse had no choice in the war decision, is a great depiction of a horse, and (like Trigger, Silver, and Bucephalus) has fame of its own.

 

[jaF0]

Maybe the Mayor should have a phallus of his own and tell the state to stick it, then pull the figurine down in the name of restoring civil order and protecting the public.

 

[sr71plt]

Maybe the Mayor should have a phallus of his own and tell the state to stick it, then pull the figurine down in the name of restoring civil order and protecting the public.

Yeah, that's the same "let's just go crazy" knee-jerk reaction, perhaps, that prompted the vandalizing of a statue in New Orleans by splashing a "take it down" sign . . . on a statue of Joan of Arc.

https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/08/17/new-orleans-joan-arc-statue-vandalized-take/

 

[coachdb18]

Odd twist that it is, it's now the alt-left that is advocating States rights vs the Federal government... with their desire to ignore the US Constitution in the case of the Electoral college and the 2016 election, such causes as state legal marijuana, sanctuary cities, and foreign immigration policies, especially of middle eastern jihadists. And it's even a big cause in California now to secede from the Union. Life is just fucking amazing, isn't it? The alt-left IS the new Confederacy.....

 

[RobDownSouth]

Odd twist that it is, it's now the alt-left that is advocating States rights vs the Federal government... with their desire to ignore the US Constitution in the case of the Electoral college and the 2016 election, such causes as state legal marijuana, sanctuary cities, and foreign immigration policies, especially of middle eastern jihadists. And it's even a big cause in California now to secede from the Union. Life is just fucking amazing, isn't it? The alt-left IS the new Confederacy.....

How is all that winning workin' out for you, chumlee?

Trump is a laughingstock around the world and your kind got drowned out today in Boston...seems there 15 or so Americans for every one of you fascists.

Buttery Males!

 

[doowdniw]

In Charlottesville yesterday, the suggestion was floated that we take Lee off the Lee statue (which has been hailed as a great work of art in its own right) and leave Traveler, his horse. The horse had no choice in the war decision, is a great depiction of a horse, and (like Trigger, Silver, and Bucephalus) has fame of its own.

Replace Lee's horse with a statue of Trump on all fours. Putin could have a rest.

 

[sr71plt]

Odd twist that it is, it's now the alt-left that is advocating States rights vs the Federal government... with their desire to ignore the US Constitution in the case of the Electoral college and the 2016 election, such causes as state legal marijuana, sanctuary cities, and foreign immigration policies, especially of middle eastern jihadists. And it's even a big cause in California now to secede from the Union. Life is just fucking amazing, isn't it? The alt-left IS the new Confederacy.....

Not really. You're just making all of that up. But you're being a good little white supremacist.

 

[Hypoxia]

How is all that winning workin' out for you, chumlee?

When alt.universes poke through the quantum froth, people just go nutz. It's "Springtime For Hitler" all over again.

 

[hsnh]

Notwithstanding the vestiges of last Civil War the Left, the Democrat Party, whipped up by the media, isn't going to stop with taking down statuary from the Civil War era, they are going to go after the legitimacy of the founding of the country, the Founders, and all they wrought, including the Constitution. Democrats have been importing revolution into the country since day one and it's finally arrived. We're looking at the seeds of a new American Civil War coming to fruition as we speak.

I believe America, as founded, will survive and in deference to the those who died trying to bring it down, there will be no statues erected in their memory. Let us only be reminded of their existence when it snows.

FOR the GB LIBERALS:
Let me first clarify that I believe White Power to be a hate group (in the US and over here too), and that Neo- Nazi or KKK symbols should be banned.
FOR RIGHTGUIDE:
You seem to be so right. This incident (as described in this clip, from min. 26.20 to 28.00) is also a step in a similar direction, and it made me recall your post:


"I taught at UVA for 16 years, and at UVA we all worshipped Thomas Jefferson : he was the founder of our University, he wrote the Declaration of Independence. And every president of the University who writes something always quotes Thomas Jefferson.
[… .] Several professors and students wrote to the President: 'Stop quoting Jefferson. Jefferson was a racist, a slave owner and a rapist. If you quote Jefferson at a time like this, you are fividing us."
The Rise of Populism and the Backlash Against the Elites, with Nick Clegg and Jonathan Haidt
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6gZ5UD1hFM4


Because Jefferson might have owned slaves, but my understanding is that his Declaration of Independence helped put fail safe mechanisms in place in the Constitution,
against government having Total power, against a totalitarian state.
-- So if they start demonizing and ostracising certain political figures, instead of saying: they had bad parts, but they did some good too,
-- they also risk delegitimizing what they wrote aka the Constitution aka your liberty. They will play into the hands of Elites and govts. who want total power.

 

[MGurkus]

FOR the GB LIBERALS:
Let me first clarify that I believe White Power to be a hate group (in the US and over here too), and that Neo- Nazi or KKK symbols should be banned.
FOR RIGHTGUIDE:
You seem to be so right. This incident (as described in this clip, from min. 26.20 to 28.00) is also a step in a similar direction, and it made me recall your post:


"I taught at UVA for 16 years, and at UVA we all worshipped Thomas Jefferson : he was the founder of our University, he wrote the Declaration of Independence. And every president of the University who writes something always quotes Thomas Jefferson.
[… .] Several professors and students wrote to the President: 'Stop quoting Jefferson. Jefferson was a racist, a slave owner and a rapist. If you quote Jefferson at a time like this, you are fividing us."
The Rise of Populism and the Backlash Against the Elites, with Nick Clegg and Jonathan Haidt
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6gZ5UD1hFM4


Because Jefferson might have owned slaves, but my understanding is that his Declaration of Independence helped put fail safe mechanisms in place in the Constitution,
against government having Total power, against a totalitarian state.
-- So if they start demonizing and ostracising certain political figures, instead of saying: they had bad parts, but they did some good too,
-- they also risk delegitimizing what they wrote aka the Constitution aka your liberty. They will play into the hands of Elites and govts. who want total power.

Just shut up, you make yourself look stupid when you chat with your Nazi sympathizers.

 

[hsnh]

Just shut up, you make yourself look stupid when you chat with your Nazi sympathizers.

Should I 'chat politics' only with the likes of Rob, Luk, 86?
"Dumb but in the right political party".

No thanks. I'd rather be called "a nazi sympathiser" than hang out with the dumbos lol.

 

[sr71plt]

Should I 'chat politics' only with the likes of Rob, Luk, 86?
"Dumb but in the right political party".

No thanks. I'd rather be called "a nazi sympathiser" than hang out with the dumbos lol.

Actually, no. I would probably be best for all if you didn't try chatting at all. Guess you identify yourself well, though, that you'd rather be known as a Nazi sympathizer than almost anyone else. Says a lot about you.

By the way, I didn't comment on your Jefferson post, because I didn't quite know what you were trying to say. But on a couple of points: Yes, Jefferson pinned the high-toned Declaration of Independence, but he didn't have blacks in mind. They weren't credited as fully being human (and women weren't considered to have any of the rights he was holding up either), and that's what he wrote about them in the only book he ever wrote--that they were subhuman.

And on the "might have owned slaves." You betcha. He owned them, he recorded them as breeding property, he sired a bunch of children off one that he first bedded when she was a child, and he sold most of the children he'd sired off a slave as slaves. How does that fit in with what you thought you were posting in that Jefferson post of yours?

 

[Adder4321]

As far as I can tell, America is basically getting ass fucked by a hundred years of slowly building hate from all sides of the fight which has finally erupted in the form of a 12 inch steel spiked dildo of rage that's going to tear the land of opportunity a new one. All I can really say now is that I feel sorry for anyone living there.

 

[sr71plt]

As far as I can tell, America is basically getting ass fucked by a hundred years of slowly building hate from all sides of the fight which has finally erupted in the form of a 12 inch steel spiked dildo of rage that's going to tear the land of opportunity a new one. All I can really say now is that I feel sorry for anyone living there.

It goes in cycles. Having an uppity black in the White House stirred up the white supremacists. That president has been followed by a racist, who has racism listed as only one of many odious traits, who has the white supremacists emboldened.

 

[Freudian_Slit]

Should I 'chat politics' only with the likes of Rob, Luk, 86?
"Dumb but in the right political party".

No thanks. I'd rather be called "a nazi sympathiser" than hang out with the dumbos lol.

 

[hsnh]

Actually, no. I would probably be best for all if you didn't try chatting at all. Guess you identify yourself well, though, that you'd rather be known as a Nazi sympathizer than almost anyone else. Says a lot about you.

I'm not an american, I'm a european imigrant who lives in Australia. (Btw I might be white, but I'm not exactly "white" because I'm a minority group too.)

You american non- whites and whites or christians versus atheists or women versus men could scratch your eyes out, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm here just for the intellectual discussions. The clash in ideologies, and strategies of ideological subversion or mass mobilization fascinate me.

I won't give two fvcks when you'll all kill each other, since that's where you're headed.

 

[sr71plt]

You american non- whites and whites or christians versus atheists or women versus men could scratch your eyes out, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm here just for the intellectual discussions. The clash in ideologies, and strategies of ideological subversion or mass mobilization fascinate me.

Then perhaps you should do more listening and less posting on these topics.

I've lived in Australia. You have race problems of your own you might tend to.

 

[hsnh]

Then perhaps you should do more listening and less posting on these topics.

I've lived in Australia. You have race problems of your own you might tend to.

You GBers have no qualms about opiniating on and criticize Europe and the Middle East all the time.
I have the same right to discuss your politics as you have to discuss others.

So fuck off, commie.

 

[Hypoxia]

"Presidency, n. The greased pig in the field game of American politics."
--A.Bierce

You american non- whites and whites or christians versus atheists or women versus men could scratch your eyes out, as far as I'm concerned.

"Divide and comquer" is the long-prevailing strategy of USA politics. Polarization seems to trump unification. I fear only outside threats can unify our factions, a threat like ET alien invasion... and even then, 15% would back the aliens.

 

[hsnh]

"Presidency, n. The greased pig in the field game of American politics."
--A.Bierce

"Divide and comquer" is the long-prevailing strategy of USA politics. Polarization seems to trump unification. I fear only outside threats can unify our factions, a threat like ET alien invasion... and even then, 15% would back the aliens.

Exactly.

But it's not just the US who's split. Northern Europe is too, and it seems to be insiduouly infiltrating the rest of Europe and other Commonwealth countries like Canada and Australia too.

Plus the world is almost unrecognizable, compared to decades ago. USSR from comunism to 'capitalism', US and North Europe towards more socialist.

I bet most people are perplexed as to what and why it's all happening.
And you can't say: I'm from Canada, Aust3alia or Europe so I should only discuss Canadian or EU or Australian politics. They're all linked, and the US sets the tone.

 

[sr71plt]

You GBers have no qualms about opiniating on and criticize Europe and the Middle East all the time.
I have the same right to discuss your politics as you have to discuss others.

So fuck off, commie.

Well, I've lived in and worked in Europe and the Middle East. So there goes that excuse.

 

[hsnh]

FOR the GB LIBERALS:
"I taught at UVA for 16 years, and at UVA we all worshipped Thomas Jefferson : he was the founder of our University, he wrote the Declaration of Independence. And every president of the University who writes something always quotes Thomas Jefferson.
[… .] Several professors and students wrote to the President: 'Stop quoting Jefferson. Jefferson was a racist, a slave owner and a rapist. If you quote Jefferson at a time like this, you are fividing us."
The Rise of Populism and the Backlash Against the Elites, with Nick Clegg and Jonathan Haidt
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6gZ5UD1hFM4

By the way, I didn't comment on your Jefferson post, because I didn't quite know what you were trying to say. But on a couple of points: Yes, Jefferson pinned the high-toned Declaration of Independence, but he didn't have blacks in mind. They weren't credited as fully being human (and women weren't considered to have any of the rights he was holding up either), and that's what he wrote about them in the only book he ever wrote--that they were subhuman.

And on the "might have owned slaves." You betcha. He owned them, he recorded them as breeding property, he sired a bunch of children off one that he first bedded when she was a child, and he sold most of the children he'd sired off a slave as slaves. How does that fit in with what you thought you were posting in that Jefferson post of yours?

Now turning to the other part of your post:
RE THOMAS JEFFERSON:
I only have a superficial understanding of US History, so I might be wrong.

1.From what I read, he and the Founders' goals in writing the Constitution were to avoid replicating the class inequalities existent in the British Empire at the time.
To put checks and balances in place for those in power (be they Monarchy, Government etc.). Without those checks and balances in the Constitution, you have unrestrained exercise of authority and risk a totalitarian power structure.

2.I won't debate whether Jefferson was a racist or not, or whether he believed in slavery because I don't know that part.


_____________________________________________

I was aiming at something else: How would liberals reconcile these two slightly incompatible goals ?
- advocate for blacks by shedding light on History (saying that Jefferson was a racist and a negative figure etc)
- without allowing ill intended parties to take advantage and de-legitimize the Constitution?

When you demonize someone, you also risk de-legitimizing their work. It's a slippery sloap

 

[sr71plt]

I only bothered to look at your post as far as Jefferson and the Constitution. Jefferson was in France (the U.S. minister to France) while the Constitution was being debated and written. He did nose around on what they were doing, but most of those writing it wanted to try to keep his nose out of it because he tended to take over any project he was working on.

Maybe you should do more research on stuff you want to discuss--before you try to discuss it. There's a marvelous thing called the Internet that can help you with that. Of course, in using the Internet, you still have to have enough idea of what you're researching to know which source is a good one and which isn't.

 

[hsnh]

I only bothered to look at your post as far as Jefferson and the Constitution. Jefferson was in France (the U.S. minister to France) while the Constitution was being debated and written. He did nose around on what they were doing, but most of those writing it wanted to try to keep his nose out of it because he tended to take over any project he was working on.

Maybe you should do more research on stuff you want to discuss--before you try to discuss it. There's a marvelous thing called the Internet that can help you with that.

"The Declaration of Independence, which officially broke all political ties between the American colonies and Great Britain, set forth the ideas and principles behind a just and fair government, and the Constitution outlined how this government would function."

https://www.uscis.gov › USCIS ›



I think that, notwitsanding my glitches in communication,
you know damn well what I was trying to get at.
You're jus trying to show me how stoopid I am in order to avoid addressing the issue.

Nevermind. I'll ask one of those "Neo- nazi racists" that you prohibit me from engaging with.
Because they don't mind replying to stupid people like me.
And they also have a way of turning even uninformed posts like mine, into interesting discussions.

 

[sr71plt]

Ah, I see, you think the American Declaration of Independence and U.S. Constitution are the same thing. And you can't seem to realize that Jefferson was a slave owner. Oh, well. Apparently it's something you can discuss without a clue what you're discussing.