What is the Good in keeping Confederate Statues and such?

[hsnh]

Ah, I see, you think the American Declaration of Independence and U.S. Constitution are the same thing. And you can't seem to realize that Jefferson was a slave owner. Oh, well. Apparently it's something you can discuss without a clue what you're discussing.

The Declaration of Independence, which officially broke all political ties between the American colonies and Great Britain, set forth the ideas and principles behind a just and fair government, and the Constitution outlined how this government would function."

https://www.uscis.gov › USCIS


But let us burn the Declaration of Independence, the next step being to burn the Constitution.
Given that Jefferson was a flawed human being and held racist beliefs.

 

[sr71plt]

Sure, if that makes you think you are up to snuff on the topic enough to be discussing it. Think whatever you wish.

 

[Hypoxia]

The Declaration of Independence, which officially broke all political ties between the American colonies and Great Britain, set forth the ideas and principles behind a just and fair government, and the Constitution outlined how this government would function."

The Declaration of Independence, a political document not a legal one, was primarily drafted by Jefferson in 1776. The Constitution, a legal document, was drafted by committee in 1789, thirteen years later, when Jefferson was stationed in France. The US operated under the Articles of Confederation from 1781 to 1789. The Articles also embraced ideas from the Declaration, but the structure didn't work -- no enough central control to hold the states together. Anyway, these are separate documents; don't confuse them.

As for the moral shortcomings of Jefferson (slaver), Washington (distiller), Franklin (lech), and other founders, I'll hoist the excuse that noble works may be emitted by ignoble assholes. IMHO what's important here is that their deeds created this nation, while rebels (with statues) tried to destroy it. They deserve no honors.

 

[hsnh]

1.The Declaration of Independence, a political document not a legal one, was primarily drafted by Jefferson in 1776. The Constitution, a legal document, was drafted by committee in 1789, thirteen years later, when Jefferson was stationed in France. The US operated under the Articles of Confederation from 1781 to 1789. The Articles also embraced ideas from the Declaration, but the structure didn't work -- no enough central control to hold the states together. Anyway, these are separate documents; don't confuse them.

2.As for the moral shortcomings of Jefferson (slaver), Washington (distiller), Franklin (lech), and other founders, I'll hoist the excuse that noble works may be emitted by ignoble assholes.
IMHO what's important here is that their deeds created this nation,

3.while rebels (with statues) tried to destroy it. They deserve no honors.

That was exactly the post that I was hoping for. Many thanks.

1.Indeed I wasn't aware of those, good clarification.

2. Exactly what I was interested in discussing..
- I approached the subject because that incident from the University of Virginia, related by Jonathan Haidt seemed worrissome to me. Given that the professors and students who wrote the letter weren't able to separate the two. (as you said, his moral shortcomings versus his noble works).

 

[hsnh]

......

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

As I have asked in other threads (and not just on this issue), where does it end?



A statue of Christopher Columbus has now been vandalized too...

 

[hsnh]

Ffs. sr71
I knew that they were separate documents. I clarified that twice, you just chose not to hear me in order to sidetrack the issue by mocking me.
My point all along was that The Declaration of Independence is ideologically linked (as a pioneer) to the Constitution.

And that, if you approach things like you and the UVA students did:

Yes, Jefferson pinned the high-toned Declaration of Independence, but he didn't have blacks in mind. They weren't credited as fully being human (and women weren't considered to have any of the rights he was holding up either), and that's what he wrote about them [blacks] in the only book he ever wrote--that they were subhuman.

"I taught at UVA for 16 years, and at UVA we all worshipped Thomas Jefferson : he was the founder of our University, he wrote the Declaration of Independence. And every president of the University who writes something always quotes Thomas Jefferson.
[… .] Several professors and students wrote to the President: 'Stop quoting Jefferson (from The Declaration of Independence). . Jefferson was a racist, a slave owner and a rapist. If you quote Jefferson at a time like this, you are dividing us."
The Rise of Populism and the Backlash Against the Elites, with Nick Clegg and Jonathan Haidt
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6gZ5UD1hFM4

you guys risk delegitimizing Jefferson's work thus, indirectly, the fail safe mechanisms of it's "offspring": the Constitution.


.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Here hash: http://www.blackpast.org/primary/declaration-independence-and-debate-over-slavery







Liberals ignore history when it does not suit their agenda.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Not only that, but neither he or Washington could divest themselves of their slaves because they lived in Virginia and it was against state law, but both men wished they could do so.

I hate willful ignorance in the pursuit of social justice.

 

[hsnh]

Here hash: http://www.blackpast.org/primary/declaration-independence-and-debate-over-slavery







Liberals ignore history when it does not suit their agenda.

Thanks.

N.B.
I'm fully aware that my History is pretty shaky, nor do I intend to give Americans who clearly know better lessons in Their History.
I'm mainly interested in the 'ideology /social psychology' part. And these might be American politics, but the issues and questions that they bring up are pretty universal.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

In summary, for those who won't look at the evidence, Jefferson did include slavery in the Declaration...

The mechanism to begin the abolishment of slavery was the 3/5 clause in the Constitution since more slaves were not going to be imported, declining numbers would eventually swing the power of the vote to the Abolitionists.

 

[hsnh]

Wow.
Quoted for sr71 and others:

"When Thomas Jefferson included a passage attacking slavery in his draft of the Declaration of Independence it initiated the most intense debate among the delegates gathered at Philadelphia in the spring and early summer of 1776. Jefferson's passage on slavery was the most important section removed from the final document.
Decades later Jefferson blamed the removal of the passage on delegates from South Carolina and Georgia and Northern delegates who represented merchants who were at the time actively involved in the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Jefferson's original passage on slavery appears below."



They're purposefully ignoring History and attacking the writer of many of the principles that the modern US was founded on. Very dangerous move.

 

[Wat_Tyler]

Not only that, but neither he or Washington could divest themselves of their slaves because they lived in Virginia and it was against state law, but both men wished they could do so.

I hate willful ignorance in the pursuit of social justice.

George couldn't divest shit.


Those were Martha's slaves.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Can a man be guilty of a sin he himself seeks to purge from his being? Can he be a mixed bag, having some good and some evil in his being? Yes. We all know it. We all feel the sting of shame, of regret, when we reflect honestly on our hidden evil thoughts, when we contemplate the condemnation we would receive if a wrongful act was discovered. We could be otherwise deserving of praise for aspects of our nature that are laudable and honorable, but in that one thing we would feel disgraced.

Interesting word, isn’t it? Disgraced. It means to lose mercy, favor or virtue. Therefore, its opposite: grace, means to extend the restoration of virtue, to grant mercy, to again look favorably upon someone.

In the Civil War, America suffered a fall from grace. But grace was used to turn enmity into comity.

This is why the Civil War monuments existed, in part, perhaps in the largest part. A shattered nation needed to come back together. Secession was treason. Treason was disgrace; worse, treason was committed to protect the evil of slavery. Men died to stop it. Men died to save it. We know who won. But with battlefields stained with blood, and the shops, streets and homes filled with maimed bodies, broken futures, and fractured souls, how do you mend two warring sides?

http://www.americanthinker.com/arti...ts_of_confederate_soldiers.html#ixzz4qI5cohIY


One more thing to keep in mind, a tribute to a confederate soldier, for the most part is not a tribute to a person fighting "for" slavery, but a person fighting for his state, home, family and way of life when under threat by the North. For that reason and that reason alone, they deserve, even in the South, to have tributes to the sacrifices made by their ancestors.

I live in a state that was neutral in the war and their are tributes to both sides and I do not want to see them go away, not because I am white (I am not), not because I am pro-slavery (I am not) and not because I am a Dixiephile (I am not). It is a living bookmark to history, the conflict, the issues and a warning that should be heeded today as to what can happen to a nation with misguided, hateful and misplaced passions, such as we are currently witnessing on the part of the Left.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

George couldn't divest shit.


Those were Martha's slaves.

*chuckle*

I stand corrected...

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Wow.
Quoted for sr71 and others:

"When Thomas Jefferson included a passage attacking slavery in his draft of the Declaration of Independence it initiated the most intense debate among the delegates gathered at Philadelphia in the spring and early summer of 1776. Jefferson's passage on slavery was the most important section removed from the final document.
Decades later Jefferson blamed the removal of the passage on delegates from South Carolina and Georgia and Northern delegates who represented merchants who were at the time actively involved in the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Jefferson's original passage on slavery appears below."



They're purposefully ignoring History and attacking the writer of many of the principles that the modern US was founded on. Very dangerous move.

Note that the North is not without original sin on this too...

 

[Wat_Tyler]

*chuckle*

I stand corrected...

I think a lot of Tom's slaves came from his skillful marriage of a well-off widow.


Including the one who probably looked an awful lot like her, being as they had a daddy in common.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Sounds a lot like one John Forbes Kerry, the proud owner of a manufactured Purple Heart.

 

[Wat_Tyler]

Swift-boating is unattractive, yanno . . . .

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

So is an old man wind-surfing while sheltering his yacht in another state.

 

[jaF0]

As I have asked in other threads (and not just on this issue), where does it end?



A statue of Christopher Columbus has now been vandalized too...

That's a whole 'nother thread. That liar and con has already been defrocked of his 'achievement' and moves are in place to rename the holiday named for him.

 

[hsnh]

That's a whole 'nother thread. That liar and con has already been defrocked of his 'achievement' and moves are in place to rename the holiday named for him.

For me, it feels strange to see so many americans being so passionate about these things,
when until a year ago they barely gave them a passing thought.

 

[jaF0]

The anti- Columbus Day movement has been underway for many years, though I can't pinpoint the beginning. It's long been known he didn't discover shit and may have never set foot on what is now the United States. Even the islands he did visit had been discovered and traded with before by others.

It turns out the whole story surrounding him was wildly exaggerated.

 

[hsnh]

One Hero demoted, new Heroes to be promoted.
I bet the ones to come will also be a tad manufactured.

 

[jaF0]

Ask people like Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse and Chief Joseph (among many others) if Chris was a 'hero'. They were true heroes to their people, and that isn't manufactured.