What kind of power balance do you have in your relationship?

[intothewoods]

<taps Homburg on the shoulder> Uhhhhh, you mean, what I said, right, in like one post? Sheesh. Men.

just teasing btw ... this happens when I get really crazed with work...

 

[FurryFury]

Yes, there is a far better way to look at children, other than as property. If the courts did NOT do that, they might actually rule in a child's interests more often.

Mothers who have said their kids belong to them, fine. I hope you never have to go to court with your ex.

It's not just me. Trust me that when your kids feel you are treating them as property or as "part" of a parent, they are likely to be angry about it. Bad decisions for your children are likely to result with that outlook as well.

Oh and it is patently untrue that kids can not make good decisions or take care of themselves.

 

[FurryFury]

I'm not sure property is really the right word, but eh, it's hard to find the perfect word. Look at abortion. It's a fetus, it's the mother's body, it's a life, it's a potential life...

Label aside, I'm pretty much with you on how I view the relationship, though I think of him as having more or less a zone of autonomy. It builds a sense of responsibility. My kid can make his own pb&j sandwich. Wassup now?

Abortion is a whole different issue. In my mind it's not particularly germane to this issue of seeing children as property at all. The fetus can't take care of itself.

 

[intothewoods]

Abortion is a whole different issue. In my mind it's not particularly germane to this issue of seeing children as property at all. The fetus can't take care of itself.

Dude, neither can a one year old. You made a few other sweeping generalizations in the post before that one. For example, courts are supposed to use the interest of the child in making their decisions. Of course, judges are fallible, judges are sometimes assholes, etc., etc., but you act like they can choose whatever standard they want.

I can see how viewing a kid as a "part" of you could be awful and cruel, but it could also be quite loving. When you breastfeed a baby, for example, they are so physically connected to you that it does seem like they're a part of you, no?

 

[FurryFury]

Dude, neither can a one year old. You made a few other sweeping generalizations in the post before that one. For example, courts are supposed to use the interest of the child in making their decisions. Of course, judges are fallible, judges are sometimes assholes, etc., etc., but you act like they can choose whatever standard they want.

I can see how viewing a kid as a "part" of you could be awful and cruel, but it could also be quite loving. When you breastfeed a baby, for example, they are so physically connected to you that it does seem like they're a part of you, no?

Dude, I think sweeping generalizations have been made on both sides. That's why I tend to say, "IMO" and use words like "some" or "many."

The laws themselves are at fault and the precedents set often also hamper those that would rule in favor of what was really in the best interests of children.

That's not to say every court decision is wrong. Just that seeing children as legal property is not in a child's best interest.

I breastfed both of my children. I truly enjoyed doing so but I always have seen them as individuals in their own right. It is my job to steward them until they are out on their own but they are not now nor have they ever been my or anyone else's property. Thank goodness!

 

[catalina_francisco]

Regardless of how you think about it, it seems to me that there are things you decide for children, things you get their input on and things they can decide for themselves. We all probably draw that line at a somewhat different place, but I don't think it's that different.

Cat, you wouldn't ask your kids whether they wanted to meet someone you were going on a first date with, right? You made the decision unilaterally that the person didn't get to meet your kids until much later. And I'm sure Homburg's kids get to choose what to eat on some occasion. Also, there are practical considerations. CM has 5! I think it's tough to let 5 kids get to make choices about everything. For simplicity's sake, you might just say - hey, majority rules so you all get apple juice. Or whatever.

I didn't dispute those things across the board...after all, as I say often, I make judgements everyday despite it being unpopular to admit to doing so...what I did dispute was the concept of someone declaring children as 'their' property when they have never met them or been in the relationship with their parent that long, and the posts which did not mention about giving children a choice or even considering their opinions/thoughts, but a lot about forcing them to do what the adult wanted or felt was rght at the moment based on what suited the adult and seemingly regardless of those children's feelings or rights.Obviously children do have rights as there is the UN Declaration of the Rights of The Child, not to mention court decisions which sometimes address these rights...I just was not seeing much of this being mentioned but a whole lot of children do as the adult decides and basically suck up any feelings or thoughts they might have which do not mirror the adults.

...and I feel very strongly about children being dragged through a succession of relationships that parents go through, decisions parents make, which need never touch their lives if a little patience was engaged in before involving them. For instance, when CM was considering moving to the DR a few months ago to be with her PYL, she told her children about it before it being a definite thing....I imagine that put an emotional strain on the children which may have been prevented...this is another very new relationship and produces red flags for me when the PYL is declaring them as his property before even meeting. It may be all wonderful, but I would be treading very carefully and not getting carried away with the idea that it must mean he really cares and would be a good influence in their lives. It is not meant to be personal against CM, but it is something which is similar to many situations parents involve their children in every day without thinking about it from all angles and just looking at the surface rose coloured glasses moment and feeling that they as adults have that right and are infallible. None of us are and all make mistakes, just sometimes they can be prevented.

Catalina

 

[VelvetDarkness]

This has become a really interesting thread. I have stepped back from posting because I have no children and although I can see the logic in all the posts that have been made, I'm not about to enter a debate that I'm patently unqualified to comment on.

Just in case you all thought I had disappeared

 

[alexanna]

I picked the last one because we are just starting out and for now it really is just in the bedroom. Sometimes I think I might like more but with 2 careers and 4 small children its not really practical for us. While I do submit to him more and more with regard to the bigger decisions I am doubtful it would ever be formally required of me. I know myself well enough to know if I believe deep down something is wrong I will fight tooth and nail for as long as it takes to make it right, no matter what he says. This is something my husband appreciates about me and I know would not be willing to give up even if I *said* I was in a moment of feeling very submissive.

I do at some stage hope there will be some symbolic things he controls outside the bedroom which would serve as erotic reminders of our relationship as we go about busy lives.

 

[FurryFury]

This has become a really interesting thread. I have stepped back from posting because I have no children and although I can see the logic in all the posts that have been made, I'm not about to enter a debate that I'm patently unqualified to comment on.

Just in case you all thought I had disappeared

Sorry to have hijacked your thread a bit.

*HUG*

 

[Netzach]

*is glad none of her peeps have single digit aged non-college student offspring*

 

[FurryFury]

*is glad none of her peeps have single digit aged non-college student offspring*

LOL!

Soooo many of mine do.

But yanno what? Most of them things grow up and leave if you raise em right.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[Homburg]

<taps Homburg on the shoulder> Uhhhhh, you mean, what I said, right, in like one post? Sheesh. Men.

*Lays a finger lightly on your lips*

Shhhh....

You're much more lovely when you're not reminding me of my oversights.

 

[Homburg]

I didn't dispute those things across the board...after all, as I say often, I make judgements everyday despite it being unpopular to admit to doing so...what I did dispute was the concept of someone declaring children as 'their' property when they have never met them or been in the relationship with their parent that long,

My former pet has a 16yr old daughter. Never met her. Didn't want to. She and I were in agreement that her family was 100% off-limits for me, and that I would never meet them. I was fine with it, as it was just not the sort of relationship where I would be wanting to meet the family.

That said, I would ask her, "How is my girl doing in school?" about her daughter. Was I claiming possession or ownership over her daughter? Hell no. I was simply taking (lower-case) ownership over her life, and expressing my quiet fondness for this young woman that was so vibrantly important in my pet's life. I did the exact same thing with her dog, same reason too. I actually met the dog, and she looooved me, and loved my family too. I still miss that dog...

and the posts which did not mention about giving children a choice or even considering their opinions/thoughts, but a lot about forcing them to do what the adult wanted or felt was rght at the moment based on what suited the adult and seemingly regardless of those children's feelings or rights.Obviously children do have rights as there is the UN Declaration of the Rights of The Child, not to mention court decisions which sometimes address these rights...I just was not seeing much of this being mentioned but a whole lot of children do as the adult decides and basically suck up any feelings or thoughts they might have which do not mirror the adults.

Can you show me where that was stated, or even implied? Nobody is talking about ignoring them, just accepting the fact that the kids do not have much in the way of meaningful input on the final decision. Their interests are strongly considered, of course, but not what they say necessarily. You five year old son is not going to have meaningful input into the decision whether to move or not.

...and I feel very strongly about children being dragged through a succession of relationships that parents go through, decisions parents make, which need never touch their lives if a little patience was engaged in before involving them.

I agree. So did my former pet. This was one of the reasons why I was not going to meet her daughter. Said daughter knew I existed, and apparently knew my name, but that was about as far as it was going to go. "w" had made a series of poor decisions regarding relationships, and, in her words, her family needed no more stress. So her rule was similar to yours, Catalina, in regards to men not meeting her family and kids.

 

[Netzach]

If I'd have caught any of my mom's boyfriends referring to me as theirs I'd have kicked them in the shins. Up until my stepdad, whom *I* decided to call Dad.

 

[intothewoods]

I didn't dispute those things across the board...after all, as I say often, I make judgements everyday despite it being unpopular to admit to doing so...what I did dispute was the concept of someone declaring children as 'their' property when they have never met them or been in the relationship with their parent that long, and the posts which did not mention about giving children a choice or even considering their opinions/thoughts, but a lot about forcing them to do what the adult wanted or felt was rght at the moment based on what suited the adult and seemingly regardless of those children's feelings or rights.Obviously children do have rights as there is the UN Declaration of the Rights of The Child, not to mention court decisions which sometimes address these rights...I just was not seeing much of this being mentioned but a whole lot of children do as the adult decides and basically suck up any feelings or thoughts they might have which do not mirror the adults.

...and I feel very strongly about children being dragged through a succession of relationships that parents go through, decisions parents make, which need never touch their lives if a little patience was engaged in before involving them. For instance, when CM was considering moving to the DR a few months ago to be with her PYL, she told her children about it before it being a definite thing....I imagine that put an emotional strain on the children which may have been prevented...this is another very new relationship and produces red flags for me when the PYL is declaring them as his property before even meeting. It may be all wonderful, but I would be treading very carefully and not getting carried away with the idea that it must mean he really cares and would be a good influence in their lives. It is not meant to be personal against CM, but it is something which is similar to many situations parents involve their children in every day without thinking about it from all angles and just looking at the surface rose coloured glasses moment and feeling that they as adults have that right and are infallible. None of us are and all make mistakes, just sometimes they can be prevented.

Catalina

Oh, I hear you on that. I'm not introducing anyone to my kid until he's taken and passed a four day exam that I am currently drafting. Between the exam and the pink sheets, I might never remarry!

 

[intothewoods]

*Lays a finger lightly on your lips*

Shhhh....

You're much more lovely when you're not reminding me of my oversights.

I hate to break this to you, but I'm not all that lovely. It's best you find it out now.

 

[intothewoods]

ETA:

By the way, the only reason my children had any clue that I was even considering the DR, was that their idiot father informed them I was moving there before I'd even gone to visit Dominican Disaster Boy™ (the only reason I even mentioned the trip to him was to let him know I'd be calling for my regular Sunday night chat with the kids from a different phone # than usual). I was left doing a shitload of damage control, and learned my lesson - I don't even mention casual friendships in passing because he can't be trusted with the information.

Not that you had to or anything, but I'm glad you clarified this. I'm sorry your ex decided to do that. How petty.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[intothewoods]

It wasn't pettiness... he's just clueless that way.

Wait, seriously? Oh dear. Oh right. I guess that does fit with what you've said about him.

 

[the_pet]

Long distance makes it hard to be micromanaged, so does being poly. I picked the second one. I'm sorry to see that the person who picked the first one didn't respond in a post, though.

Micromanaged (i have my responsibilities that while he does not check every ten minutes to see if i'm on task, i'm expected to maintain standards. it is expected that i am with him 24/7 unless engagements/obligations adjust this schedule then based on what's going on, i get direction.)

No Autonomy (real conversation just the other day about a collectible he likes)

he: What do you think about this piece?
me: I don't have an opinion about it one way or the other. Would you like me to have an opinion?
he: Only if it's a good one.

I didn't really have a checklist to see if i was #1 or #2 but i think examples like above guided me to answer #1. I'll be glad to answer any questions


pet

 

[Etoile]

Micromanaged (i have my responsibilities that while he does not check every ten minutes to see if i'm on task, i'm expected to maintain standards. it is expected that i am with him 24/7 unless engagements/obligations adjust this schedule then based on what's going on, i get direction.)

No Autonomy (real conversation just the other day about a collectible he likes)

he: What do you think about this piece?
me: I don't have an opinion about it one way or the other. Would you like me to have an opinion?
he: Only if it's a good one.

I didn't really have a checklist to see if i was #1 or #2 but i think examples like above guided me to answer #1. I'll be glad to answer any questions


pet

I didn't mean to force you to answer, but thanks for answering!

I think I would have defined "micromanaged" as having your clothes and hairstyle picked out for you every day, deciding whether you have orange juice or grapefruit juice in the morning, having your schedule set every day (first clean the bathroom THEN bake a cake), only go #2 in the morning not the evening, etc. Not how much autonomy you do or don't have - I think most slaves would agree they don't have full autonomy - but how much of your life is specifically controlled. That's why people often talk about "my master doesn't have time for micromanagement" - because it's the little tiny daily things rather than the overall "you have no opinion and you do as I tell you." That's why it's MICRO management vs. just regular management.

Remember the movie Secretary, where she calls him up when she's having dinner with her family, and he says "you can have all the ice cream you want but you can only have four peas" ? That's what I'd call micromanagement.

 

[intothewoods]

The worst idea to me was having to leave the bathroom door open while you poo. My poo is private.

 

[the_pet]

I didn't mean to force you to answer, but thanks for answering!

I think I would have defined "micromanaged" as having your clothes and hairstyle picked out for you every day, deciding whether you have orange juice or grapefruit juice in the morning, having your schedule set every day (first clean the bathroom THEN bake a cake), only go #2 in the morning not the evening, etc. Not how much autonomy you do or don't have - I think most slaves would agree they don't have full autonomy - but how much of your life is specifically controlled. That's why people often talk about "my master doesn't have time for micromanagement" - because it's the little tiny daily things rather than the overall "you have no opinion and you do as I tell you." That's why it's MICRO management vs. just regular management.

Remember the movie Secretary, where she calls him up when she's having dinner with her family, and he says "you can have all the ice cream you want but you can only have four peas" ? That's what I'd call micromanagement.

...some things he's VERY specific about (clothes for one, likes certain styles but doesn't specifically pick out each outfit daily but will tell me to change if he doesn't like it) and like the other day (as another example) he went through the drivethru at Starbucks and said, "what do you want, i'm getting a blah, blah, blah", i didn't want anything and said, "i'm good", he said, "you'll have a mocha vendi" [whateverthehellitscalled]. Or like when he wants me to go somewhere with him and i'm there just to be there, he gets really specific....get in X car, wait in the car, wait here/sit there. i can't count how many times he's told me to stop what i'm doing, ride with him only to be told to wait in the car.

 

[EmpressFi]

...some things he's VERY specific about (clothes for one, likes certain styles but doesn't specifically pick out each outfit daily but will tell me to change if he doesn't like it) and like the other day (as another example) he went through the drivethru at Starbucks and said, "what do you want, i'm getting a blah, blah, blah", i didn't want anything and said, "i'm good", he said, "you'll have a mocha vendi" [whateverthehellitscalled]. Or like when he wants me to go somewhere with him and i'm there just to be there, he gets really specific....get in X car, wait in the car, wait here/sit there. i can't count how many times he's told me to stop what i'm doing, ride with him only to be told to wait in the car.

again, my situation is different being poly and living hundreds of miles apart. I applaud you that you can manage that kind of .. well for lack of a better word, management. I know it's not something I could do. I love that he values my opinion and doesnt try and change it to one he gives me or tells me to not give it if I think it's one that he wont approve of.. and while he might buy me a mocha venti.. if I didnt want one, I wouldnt drink it just because he bought it. But that's just me. Just as he doesnt ask me to do the typing thing where anything referring to myself is in lower case and anything referring to him is upper case... he knows I'd try, but that it would drive my OCD crazy. The only thing in that regard is that he does require I use Master when referring to him. I just know I wouldnt have the internal strength to do what you do and I admire those of you who can.