What Makes a story good?

[TheEarl]

It’s easy for an inexperienced writer to come up with an ‘original’ idea that’s already been done dozens of times. There’s the ‘strange acting aliens are really infants’, the ‘unknown landscape is a common object as seen by some microscopic being’, the ‘man saves baby and at the end of the story we learn it’s Hitler’, as well as countless others. The more knowledgeable a reader is in a genre the sooner they spot your cliché for what it is. That is why it behooves a writer to know the genre they’re working in better than the reader does. It is much easier to catch and discard clichéd writing that way.

On the other hand, there are (hopefully) always new readers. Once a writer learns to manipulate the conventions of the UW genres it is easy to forget that there are people who are getting into the pool for the first time. As these genres are based on idioms this can be disastrous.

IMHO: There are very few original ideas. Definitely not enough to fuel the number of new stories. The mark of a great writer is to take an unoriginal idea and write it so well that it seems fresh and new.

The Earl

 

[SlickTony]

It has been said that Shakespeare had all the best plots already.

 

[Weird Harold]

It has been said that Shakespeare had all the best plots already.

It's also been said that he stole most of them.

 

[jon.hayworth]

I have just read through the whole of this thread in one go, and I was impressed by a lot of the contributions. I began to list in my head anything that I could contribute; and it was then that I realized, what an impossible question BT was posing.

If there was a clear cut answer - a publishing house would pay a fortune to know that answer.

If it could be clearly defined, there would be no authors - because someone somewhere would write the software and a bank of computers would be churning out the world's fiction without having to be paid royalties etc.

SO let us (writers) rejoice that BT has asked the question and has found there is no concise answer

jon

 

[SlickTony]

It's also been said that he stole most of them.

Well, there you are.

 

[Quasimodem]

Yeah, but Shakespeare forgot to steal my favourite plot.

Boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy builds girl, boy loses operator's manual.

 

[cherrylips_au]

If there was a clear cut answer - a publishing house would pay a fortune to know that answer.

If it could be clearly defined, there would be no authors - because someone somewhere would write the software and a bank of computers would be churning out the world's fiction without having to be paid royalties etc.

jon

This reminded me of Roald Dahl's short story 'The Great Automatic Grammatizator.'

I think it's a personal choice for people as to what makes a great story. Lots of people read the same stories yet take different things from them.

For me it is when I'm lost in the story. Be it a short story that takes me away for those few minutes or a novel that I have to consume.

Finishing the story with the images still in my head, wondering what would happen next with the characters, or how they may react in other situations.

 

[Dirt Man]

What makes a story good isn't the voting system here, that's for sure. It's those who really read your story, and give you feedback. For Instance: A new story of mine just went up, it has two votes, and both are 1's as that is the average. So no matter what anybody else honestly votes for the story, it will never make it to the top ten in the voting catagory. Now normally I would have waited until morning to see if any of my stories had been published here, but this time I was online anyway at 3am in the morning so I checked. And what do ya know Bed-n-Brunch Ho was posted, and it had 1 view, and 2 votes, averaging 1.00 for the vote count, how nice. Now I could do the same thing to every new story published here too, but I won't. You see, even with these childish attacks, my stories always average out above 4.30 by those who really read them. So I'm terribly sorry if I'm not a part of the clique in here, but I'll let my stories talk for me about how well I can write.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

 

[SlickTony]

I've never thought of this outfit as a clique. Either you have something to say here or you don't. Not having a lot of direct reaction to something I've said seldom stops me. I'll put in my two cents anyway.

 

[Guest]

What makes a story good isn't the voting system here, that's for sure. It's those who really read your story, and give you feedback. For Instance: A new story of mine just went up, it has two votes, and both are 1's as that is the average. So no matter what anybody else honestly votes for the story, it will never make it to the top ten in the voting catagory. Now normally I would have waited until morning to see if any of my stories had been published here, but this time I was online anyway at 3am in the morning so I checked. And what do ya know Bed-n-Brunch Ho was posted, and it had 1 view, and 2 votes, averaging 1.00 for the vote count, how nice. Now I could do the same thing to every new story published here too, but I won't. You see, even with these childish attacks, my stories always average out above 4.30 by those who really read them. So I'm terribly sorry if I'm not a part of the clique in here, but I'll let my stories talk for me about how well I can write.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

I don't think that's true (about the clique). It does help matters the MORE votes you have, certainly, because it will average out those few evil "1" people. ALL my stories have received low votes at one time; you can tell when the score suddenly dips. (And some of my stories are certainly NOT fucking "1" stories!!!)

I notice my scores dropping once my work hits one of the top lists. That's probably normal because more people read it (not just my friends) and more people have an opinion. Some averaging down is natural, but unfortunately, there are some people who habitually vote all stories with low scores. No clue why (frustrated religious zealots?) and it is tough to take at times - so I try to just rely on the feedback.

(Pisses me off about one of my poems, though - GREAT poem - still hasn't recovered from the 1 bashing it received once it was the top ranked poem - LOL - ahh well!)

By the way - love that title - Bed-n-Brunch Ho! I'm going to have to check it out!

 

[TheEarl]

Dirt Man: I've been to about 4 different threads already so far and in all of them you've manage to crowbar in this complaint about some votes and mutter something about a clique, as though there was a cartel of writers here who are determined to supress new talent.

I know I've only been on Lit for less than a year, but I've seen absolutely no traces of cliquishness. All I've seen are people making friends and acting how they normally would with their friends. Nobody's excluded.

Yes there are 1 trolls here. Yes, they're terrible, evil people and do nasty things to your ego. But you shouldn't a) dwell on them and give them more concern than they're worth or b) keep telling us about them at every opportunity. Once will do; we'll give you sympathy and say how much we empathise, but if you do this on every thread with very tenuous connections to the conversation, then you're just going to annoy people.

Sorry, that's just how I felt.

The Earl

 

[SlickTony]

4 different threads already so far and in all of them you've manage to crowbar in this complaint about some votes

Oh, thank God! I thought my brain had developed hiccups or something. Or I'd wandered into that Monty Python scene with the psychiatrist diaries: "I seem to have this feeling of...deja vu!"

 

[Guest]

Oh, thank God! I thought my brain had developed hiccups or something. Or I'd wandered into that Monty Python scene with the psychiatrist diaries: "I seem to have this feeling of...deja vu!"

Laughing - yes, I just caught one of his posts on another thread.

Well, so much for my well thought out hopefully helpful reply!!

 

[SlickTony]

BTW, I have read B&B Ho and it's at least as good as a lot of the other stuff I've read. I'm just wondering, though--I've read other stories in which someone had two cocks stuffed up their ass at the same time--is that physically possible?

 

[that_girl]

I'm still new, but my story is at a 4.49 average! YAY!

 

[BigTexan]

What makes a story good isn't the voting system here, that's for sure. It's those who really read your story, and give you feedback.

Neither votes nor feedback alter a story in any way. They do not make it good or bad, they simply express someone's opinion of it.

So I'm terribly sorry if I'm not a part of the clique in here, but I'll let my stories talk for me about how well I can write.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

There is no clique in here as far as I can tell and accusing us of rigging the votes is absolutely ridiculous. Look around you. I'm not one of the "Top Rated" authors here. I have one story posted and yes it scored well, but not great and yes I got some one votes. Most of the people who post regularly here have complained about the 1 voting morons at some point, but we gripe a little and go on. Rarely do you see us screaming in every active thread how everyone is out to get us.

By the way, before posting this response I read your story. I didn't vote. I never vote if I'm inclined to vote low. I didn't like your story. Here is why.

It was technically well written. There were few mechanical errors if any. You varied the sentence structure enough to keep my interest and you used words correctly.

But this was supposed to be an erotic story. But the language was harsh and hate-filled from the start of the story right through. Hatred, bigotry, and racism are things that will wilt my wienie faster than almost anything else. (Cockroaches and rodents being two others)

So, for me, the story failed. It was not erotic to me. Not in the least.

Now before this post launches the whole censorship discussion again, let me make it clear that I'm not saying that people shouldn't put that stuff in stories. I firmly believe what Steven King said in his book about writing the truth. But if you write that stuff into the story, then don't expect me to think it is erotic. I won't. I won't vote you down for it. I won't vote on the story at all. If someone put a gun to my head and forced me to vote, then I would have given your story a 2. Not a 1 because I reserve that for the those stories that are technically unreadable. But a 2 because the story utterly failed as an erotic story.

So what does that mean? It doesn't mean it's not a good story. It doesn't mean that it's not a great story. It means that IN MY OPINION it wasn't a good story. There is a great difference.

If you are a published author, and I have no reason to doubt you, then you know that what one editor thinks is wonderful, some other editor is going to reject out of hand. This is the same as that. Someone else here, and probably many someone else’s, are going to think this is a great story.

Oh and one more thing before I stop. If you want to be a part of the author's Hangout Clique it's really very simple.

Just treat everyone else with respect. That's all there is too it. You treat us with respect and you'll find we accept you and welcome you aboard.

And in case you don't know. Respect doesn't mean you have to agree with us. That would be impossible as we rarely agree with each other. It doesn't mean you have to suck up to us either. Just don't be rude, don't accuse us of things we aren't guilty of, don't flame us for no reason. Just treat us with respect. If you do that, you'll find that most of us are really cool people.

BigTexan

 

[Dirt Man]

You are right Big Tex...

And I only went into so many threads as a public service announcement, not to whine about the writers in here.

As for erotic opinion, that too is a part of free speach, and I accept that as well. As noted, I often write for a select group of people, and in most interracial situations, unfortunately, bigotry is a big part of the relationship in a story. And how people deal with their own bigotry is an ongoing struggle, especially in interracial relationships. My own people sarcastically call each other the big "N" word all the time because we know that it is politically incorrect for anyone else to call us that these days, and I guess we shouldn't get off on it or the power trip that comes with shall we say the "Penis Legend," but we are only human too.

If I have been rude by going into too many threads with the same message, then I appologize here, and now. I do understand about editors, (LOL) and realize that everybody expects respect here. I too refuse to vote if my vote will end up being low. I prefer to instead send feedback that will inspire, and correct a problem that the writer might not see in their own work.

In reguards to feedback that I get, if it's from annonymous, then I usually take that with a grain of salt or three, but if there is an honest to goodness address, then I sit up and listen more attentively. I no more expect everybody to love, like, etc. everything I write than I expect to be on the next ship to visit the moon.


As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

 

[TheEarl]

It wasn't exactly rude, it just appeared to be attention seeking of AmericanDemon style at first glance. Sorry for slamming you, but that was just my initial impression.

Although people often disagree, it is not very often that someone takes the time to explain their POV and apologise for any misunderstanding. Very well put Dirtman.

The Earl

PS. Better way of a PA announcement is to start a new thread. It tends to get people's attention better.

 

[BigTexan]

Re: You are right Big Tex...

... As noted, I often write for a select group of people, and in most interracial situations, unfortunately, bigotry is a big part of the relationship in a story.

Wouldn't this world be a better place if our society, and all societies, would realize that "race" simply doesn't matter at all. We are all people. Race, gender, nationality, sexual orientation, height, weight, eye color, hair color, etc. None of it really makes anyone better or worse than anyone else. I wish the rest of the world would "get it."

I wish that I was eloquent enough to persuade even one racist he was wrong. But not I, nor anyone else, will ever be able to do that. They are all standing outside looking up at the sun and wondering how it could be up in the sky at midnight.

BigTexan

 

[Guest]

Re: You are right Big Tex...

. . . As noted, I often write for a select group of people, and in most interracial situations, unfortunately, bigotry is a big part of the relationship in a story. And how people deal with their own bigotry is an ongoing struggle, especially in interracial relationships. . .

I truly hope that doesn't have to be the case. I have dear friends of different colors (and one in particular were I not married I'd be all over in a heartbeat - LOL) He's a terrific man, and I can't imagine that bigotry would somehow have to become part of our relationship were we ever to get together sexually.

To continue the thought, I hope I'm not expected to put racism into a story. I'm in the Survivor Contest this year and need to submit an interracial work. I intend to make it loving, sexual, believable and wildly erotic (probably a bit rough at times, 'cause I seem to like that! lol)

Hey! Great sex is great sex!!

 

[wildsweetone]

A very interesting thread BT, thanks for starting it and making me think hard.

A good read for me means that I am able to lose myself totally while I'm reading. It means I'm not even aware that I'm reading. I don't hear outside noises, I don't feel external heat or cold. I am totally drawn into the story. I cry when my heart is tugged, I laugh when a character does something funny or quirky. I am inside the story as it's happening.

I think it's a special mixture of many things that make me lose myself in such a way.

Yes, it's good technical mechanics, good spelling and plausable grammar. It's also a good storyline. Interesting characters. I think though, above everything it has to appeal to me, to what I specifically enjoy and what I would like to enjoy.

Now, further thinking has me realising that the reason there are so many genres, so many authors and so many readers, is that we are all different and we all cater and garner for differences.

Thank goodness each one of us is different. Reading and writing would be utterly boring and pointless otherwise.

 

[Dirt Man]

Lust is probably the most bigoted thing humans experiance..

I truly hope that doesn't have to be the case. I have dear friends of different colors (and one in particular were I not married I'd be all over in a heartbeat - LOL) He's a terrific man, and I can't imagine that bigotry would somehow have to become part of our relationship were we ever to get together sexually.

If you really think about it, we take on a lover, each of us for reasons that are very bigoted. Some like their lover plump, or buxom, or skinny, or with freckles, or a tight ass, and a nice smile. When in fact it doesn't matter what they look like as long as they have the required equipment, and plumbing for our sexual needs. Bigotry isn't just a color, or an ethnic trait, it's our make up, upbringing, and thought processes. However for bigotry to work without hurting others feelings, instead of looking at things in this negative manner, I suggest that we rejoice in our differences, instead of putting them down in each other. No two people are totally alike, even exact twins. Yet we are brought up to always try to fit in with our peers IE in style, and attitude, to become a part of the team, not rock the boat, and so on.

Imagine if, there were this new kind of bigotry, one that celebrated each others differences instead of enslaving them. Wouldn't that be something. And that would be a great way of putting your story together.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

 

[Guest]

Re: Lust is probably the most bigoted thing humans experiance..

If you really think about it, we take on a lover, each of us for reasons that are very bigoted. Some like their lover plump, or buxom, or skinny, or with freckles, or a tight ass, and a nice smile. When in fact it doesn't matter what they look like as long as they have the required equipment, and plumbing for our sexual needs. Bigotry isn't just a color, or an ethnic trait, it's our make up, upbringing, and thought processes. However for bigotry to work without hurting others feelings, instead of looking at things in this negative manner, I suggest that we rejoice in our differences, instead of putting them down in each other. No two people are totally alike, even exact twins. Yet we are brought up to always try to fit in with our peers IE in style, and attitude, to become a part of the team, not rock the boat, and so on.

Imagine if, there were this new kind of bigotry, one that celebrated each others differences instead of enslaving them. Wouldn't that be something. And that would be a great way of putting your story together.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

I prefer to think of it as each person's personal taste - in people, friends, sex, etc. (that term doesn't seem to hurt my sensibilities as much as the word bigotry- lol)

But I think I understand what you are saying - and wouldn't it be wonderful?

 

[Dirt Man]

All my life when filling out forms for employment, unemployment, insurance, etc, etc. ad infinitum, there is one box that I have a hard time with filling out as it doesn't make any sense to me. You know the box, the one that asks: RACE:

I mean the only sentient that can even read, and fill out that form belongs to the human race, right? Or at least so far as we know of.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

 

[Un-registered]

All my life when filling out forms for employment, unemployment, insurance, etc, etc. ad infinitum, there is one box that I have a hard time with filling out as it doesn't make any sense to me. You know the box, the one that asks: RACE:

I invariably put '110m Hurdles' in that box. About 1 in 10 times it is queried. I wonder in the great statistical analysis of the world, whether I now have a minuscule slot of my own?

Edited to add as an afterthought
Incidentally none of my children has inherited this particular characteristic from me.