What's wrong with F/m in BDSM and how can we fix it?

[ataxia.girl]

I hope I didn't come off like a bitch. It is hard.

Not in the least. It was really easy to control until around 5-7 years of age and now that the older ones are getting it its harder to exclude from the younger ones.

What's interesting is as parents we end up exposing them to spoofed stuff on You Tube to sort of introduce them to the criticism of the product along with the product. So trying to help them be more savvy consumers as early as possible but they're kids. They are susceptible to flashing lights and loud noises. i can relate.

So in the end i'll let them have their Barbie's for the most part and just encourage the same kind of dismemberment experimentation i did as a child. i am more concerned that they play with their things creatively and break convention than i am about what products they are exposed to anymore.

i just don't think its a war i can win so i am going to try another tack.

 

[Netzach]

another thought

the above "dating advice" I gave is so stock generic no shit sherlock obvious in any and all spheres of the world except in the bizzaro world of F/m flirtation.

Be yourself is replaced with "be the weirdest extreme of your power orientation and front like mad----now, go."

 

[intothewoods]

You just have to have game. That's easy, right?

Isn't the same though for a pyl or a PYL? I've had male Ds slobber all over me and it's like, ugh, pull it together dude. You have to have a little take-it-or-leave it confidence but not so much you're an asshole. At a munch, party, a bar, whatever, you're just making conversation and meeting friends, of course. Anything else is just gravy.

 

[subbie_333]

blah, I just did it again. additive brain.

LOL

i'm just *SO* glad that You didn't hurt me really bad after that post.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Oh. Well these charming men like when I hit them with things, because that's my thing, and like to know what I like because that is useful to know when you purport to want to do what someone wants, right?

Got it

 

[subbie_333]

i just don't think its a war i can win so i am going to try another tack.

i understand that feeling. What i don't quite understand is parents who make all these complaints while they still keep buying the stuff (especially clothes) for their little girls. i mean, the 12 year old doesn't have a job, so, she is not the one buying those slutty clothes she is wearing. Having sympathy with the kid wanting to fit in is a good thing. But, don't be a hypocrite and/or complain that *you* had no other choice.

 

[Netzach]

i understand that feeling. What i don't quite understand is parents who make all these complaints while they still keep buying the stuff (especially clothes) for their little girls. i mean, the 12 year old doesn't have a job, so, she is not the one buying those slutty clothes she is wearing. Having sympathy with the kid wanting to fit in is a good thing. But, don't be a hypocrite and/or complain that *you* had no other choice.

Where?

You can order things online. You can sew.

But I personally will not fault busy single mothers who want to buy some fast crap from Target like the rest of humanity for having NO OPTIONS else.

 

[ataxia.girl]

i understand that feeling. What i don't quite understand is parents who make all these complaints while they still keep buying the stuff (especially clothes) for their little girls. i mean, the 12 year old doesn't have a job, so, she is not the one buying those slutty clothes she is wearing. Having sympathy with the kid wanting to fit in is a good thing. But, don't be a hypocrite and/or complain that *you* had no other choice.

How much little girl clothing shopping do you do exactly? We actually buy most of theirs at thrift stores. i order night gowns online because they love them and no the stores don't carry anything without a character on it.

And more to my earlier point one of the main powers given to women is sexuality. Why do i have to dress them like boys? If they want to look pretty i say more power to them.

you're stronger, we're prettier. get over it.

 

[subbie_333]

You just have to have game. That's easy, right?

Isn't the same though for a pyl or a PYL? I've had male Ds slobber all over me and it's like, ugh, pull it together dude. You have to have a little take-it-or-leave it confidence but not so much you're an asshole. At a munch, party, a bar, whatever, you're just making conversation and meeting friends, of course. Anything else is just gravy.

Granted.

But, is it really different in the F/m situation? Do we as a community, or at this site, have more patience for the newbie female pyl compared to the newbie male pyl? Sure, one could make the argument that the male gender will be more crude as a newbie pyl. Does that mean that we need to make more of an effort, or a different effort, to correct or educate them? Or, should we treat both gender pyls the same? And, should we then treat newbie PYLs and newbie pyls the same?

 

[subbie_333]

How much little girl clothing shopping do you do exactly? We actually buy most of theirs at thrift stores. i order night gowns online because they love them and no the stores don't carry anything without a character on it.

And more to my earlier point one of the main powers given to women is sexuality. Why do i have to dress them like boys? If they want to look pretty i say more power to them.

you're stronger, we're prettier. get over it.

Where?

You can order things online. You can sew.

But I personally will not fault busy single mothers who want to buy some fast crap from Target like the rest of humanity for having NO OPTIONS else.

OK, i surrender or call a truce and/or suggest that this should be another thread.

 

[intothewoods]

Granted.

But, is it really different in the F/m situation? Do we as a community, or at this site, have more patience for the newbie female pyl compared to the newbie male pyl? Sure, one could make the argument that the male gender will be more crude as a newbie pyl. Does that mean that we need to make more of an effort, or a different effort, to correct or educate them? Or, should we treat both gender pyls the same? And, should we then treat newbie PYLs and newbie pyls the same?

I think all guys have the risk of being the creepy guy. You don't want to be that guy. Women seem more harmless.

How much little girl clothing shopping do you do exactly? We actually buy most of theirs at thrift stores. i order night gowns online because they love them and no the stores don't carry anything without a character on it.

And more to my earlier point one of the main powers given to women is sexuality. Why do i have to dress them like boys? If they want to look pretty i say more power to them.

you're stronger, we're prettier. get over it.

I do thrift stores, american apparel, osh kosh and a few other online sites that do basic solid colors.

Pretty is fine. Fluffy, lacy, bows, blah blah. But why are they selling crop tops to 10 year olds? And low waisted pants? They do similar stuff for boy kids, only it's not sexual. The kid clothes look like adult stuff. My kid doesn't need cargo shorts, thank you. He has no cargo!

Where?

You can order things online. You can sew.

But I personally will not fault busy single mothers who want to buy some fast crap from Target like the rest of humanity for having NO OPTIONS else.

Totally. My ex buys stuff from Target and it drives me up a wall, but do I want to start world war III over that, or is it more important that my kid has equal time with his dad and his dad is very involved. I do tell him how I feel about it, and give him other ideas, and yada yada, but you win some, you lose some.

 

[subbie_333]

My kid doesn't need cargo shorts, thank you. He has no cargo!

Oh, come on! Where is he gonna hide his new pet frog, the one that he is gonna show to all the girls to scare them off? Plus, you can get him started early, telling him that is where to carry his peewee flogger and kiddie cuffs set.

 

[00Syd]

Just as far as the "what do you and don't you expose your kid to" conversation:

I'm not a parent, but I'm not too far removed from being raised by one. I do think its important to expose your kid to lots of different things, and try to limit their exposure to certain popular characters, brands, and other societal influences, but I do think it can be taken too far. For example: My mother would go through every childhood picture book I was ever given and anytime she found the word "policeman," "fireman," or other gender specific wording, she would cross it out and replace it with "policeperson," and "fireperson."

While I agree with the sentiment, I think that she got a little too anal about it. Limiting a child's exposure to an idea you disagree with is one thing, but not exposing them to it at all? I don't think thats such a good idea.

 

[Netzach]

Just as far as the "what do you and don't you expose your kid to" conversation:

I'm not a parent, but I'm not too far removed from being raised by one. I do think its important to expose your kid to lots of different things, and try to limit their exposure to certain popular characters, brands, and other societal influences, but I do think it can be taken too far. For example: My mother would go through every childhood picture book I was ever given and anytime she found the word "policeman," "fireman," or other gender specific wording, she would cross it out and replace it with "policeperson," and "fireperson."

While I agree with the sentiment, I think that she got a little too anal about it. Limiting a child's exposure to an idea you disagree with is one thing, but not exposing them to it at all? I don't think thats such a good idea.

Yes.

They're going to encounter it. If anything I think it's good to think of it in a "my money doesn't go here" way, because it's just going to happen. Being more interesting than pop culture is really where it's at, and drawing/blocks will still often trump plastic crap for some kids. It's just not entirely in your control.

 

[intothewoods]

Just as far as the "what do you and don't you expose your kid to" conversation:

I'm not a parent, but I'm not too far removed from being raised by one. I do think its important to expose your kid to lots of different things, and try to limit their exposure to certain popular characters, brands, and other societal influences, but I do think it can be taken too far. For example: My mother would go through every childhood picture book I was ever given and anytime she found the word "policeman," "fireman," or other gender specific wording, she would cross it out and replace it with "policeperson," and "fireperson."

While I agree with the sentiment, I think that she got a little too anal about it. Limiting a child's exposure to an idea you disagree with is one thing, but not exposing them to it at all? I don't think thats such a good idea.

Yeah, that's overkill.

Oh, come on! Where is he gonna hide his new pet frog, the one that he is gonna show to all the girls to scare them off? Plus, you can get him started early, telling him that is where to carry his peewee flogger and kiddie cuffs set.

Can't he just use two pockets like everyone else?

 

[BiBunny]

Ugh, I've been moving all day, and I missed this thread. I know y'all have all been anxiously awaiting my opinion, right?

A lot of it has actually been covered already. I see so many men who have watched so much porn and read so much bullshit online that they truly believe they know exactly how it works. They build up this picture in their minds of how their "Mistress" should act, and they get all pissed off if you don't fit that caricature.

The men I'm attracted to are the ones who don't throw "I'm a sub; use me for your pleasure" up in my face all the time. 'Cause, let's face it, to them "my" pleasure is really THEIR pleasure.

I'm so beyond the dress him up in my panties, tie him to the bed, and give him a blowjob and/or nail him in the ass with a strap-on school of online porn F/m. I'm also not that strict uber-bitch Mistress of erotica stories, either. Because I'm not interested in either of those things, there's a dearth of msubs that I can actually tolerate.

Bleh...I was going somewhere with this. Now I don't remember where. The moral of the story is, if you treat me like a walking, talking embodiment of all your goofy-ass fetishes, I'm not going to be interested. Why don't msubs remember how to interact with women like normal human beings?

 

[Essene]

Ugh, I've been moving all day, and I missed this thread. I know y'all have all been anxiously awaiting my opinion, right?

Ugh. I kind of was actually.

I'm more of a literal than philosophical mindset so I usually wait for you, DB or Netzach to do the talking so that I can read the thread, nod a bunch of times and then wander over to the cafe for a latte.

The moral of the story is, if you treat me like a walking, talking embodiment of all your goofy-ass fetishes, I'm not going to be interested. Why don't msubs remember how to interact with women like normal human beings?

*jumps up and down* YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!!!!!

 

[Essene]

Double post...

Not unique to you at all. I think it's probably 99 percent of us. I struggle with this like you have no idea. It's much easier to say "no, asshole man testing my boundary overtly" instead of "no manipulative man!"

Okay so I'm not like a total softy or pushover, or something. I actually feel a bit relieved.

Sure start a thread. i love this topic.

I think that would have been a good idea. All I can say is that my own personal style is one where I just try to be really aware of how subversively my own child can be affected by marketing and various biased personalities in our lives. I give her a balance of typically male and female input...as in I work at being a balanced and stable person, and I work at giving her a balanced and stable life - right down to giving her as many trucks and cars as baby dolls and sparkly things. When I can I do gender neutral. Of course unlike me at this age, she's really focused on the color pink and wanting to be a princess... I only let her watch PBS. I don't get where it comes from, but it's part of our culture. I just do my best.

So, she is allowed princess time, but then she's outside in her overalls playing in the sand box.

As far as her sexuality is concerned, no, it's not mine to control, but I can do my best to give her as unbiased and clean of a slate to work from so that she can be as complete and confident as possible in herself as a person.

Ya know, some people think that switches should just go out and kill themselves. Now, that's not me saying that, it's just something i've heard

*raises eyebrow* *cough*

OK, let's try to turn this into something constructive. When you are in a PYL mood and you go looking for pyls and you are screening them, what are you looking for? What sorta things do they say that grab your attention in a good way? How do you go about determining if they are an asshat or not? Wouldn't that last question be an issue that you would want to implement quicker and streamline to make your search more efficient and productive?

Oh my gawd subbie. What is it with these long paragraphs? All I see is a mess of black on white...

Basically, I am attracted to pyls for mostly the same reasons that I am attracted to PYLs.

I have a little numbered list in my head.

1. Is intelligence. Then it's a matter of how many bad jokes they make which actually make me laugh...



You know, the usual stuff. Looks is always last on my list. I'm not going to say that being good looking hurts his/her chances, but I'd date a hairy ogre if he/she had a good heart and a keen wit.

The rest of it has to do with matching lifestyle.

Asshats don't know when to quit. That's the thing really. When I'm done for the evening, or I don't want to date anymore, I'm done. Don't bother me anymore. I get so irritated when the whining and begging goes on and on.

I'll respect you, so show me respect as well and we'll be golden.

It's all really basic respectful human stuff that asshats seem to be lacking.

( makes a mental note that some female PYLs might have ADD )

Huh? Hey, did you see where I put my tea?

Oh. Well these charming men like when I hit them with things, because that's my thing, and like to know what I like because that is useful to know when you purport to want to do what someone wants, right?

Mmm hmm...

blah, I just did it again. additive brain.

I'm glad to see I'm not alone in this also.

the above "dating advice" I gave is so stock generic no shit sherlock obvious in any and all spheres of the world except in the bizzaro world of F/m flirtation.

Be yourself is replaced with "be the weirdest extreme of your power orientation and front like mad----now, go."

ROFL

Where?

You can order things online. You can sew.

But I personally will not fault busy single mothers who want to buy some fast crap from Target like the rest of humanity for having NO OPTIONS else.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

OK, i surrender or call a truce and/or suggest that this should be another thread.

Ayup.

 

[SinfulSailor]

FWIW..... I think parents should remember that our kids are going to have to function in our society all their lives. To the extent we experiment with their socialization far outside the norm, we take on a helluva responsibility in addition to the already huge responsibility of being good parents.

I know a couple who raised their kid far outside the norm. Now as a young adult, she is trying desperately to live within society's norms. And it's more difficult for her to do than it is for her peers.

I know we can teach things *in addition to* their socialization. We can show/teach a different POV. I think that is very much being a good parent. But to go exclusively outside the norm with our socialization of our kids is something we do at our kids' peril. And see that's the thing. It's not going to be us who pays a price.

Thought for the day.

 

[Netzach]

FWIW..... I think parents should remember that our kids are going to have to function in our society all their lives. To the extent we experiment with their socialization far outside the norm, we take on a helluva responsibility in addition to the already huge responsibility of being good parents.

I know a couple who raised their kid far outside the norm. Now as a young adult, she is trying desperately to live within society's norms. And it's more difficult for her to do than it is for her peers.

I know we can teach things *in addition to* their socialization. We can show/teach a different POV. I think that is very much being a good parent. But to go exclusively outside the norm with our socialization of our kids is something we do at our kids' peril. And see that's the thing. It's not going to be us who pays a price.

Thought for the day.

Saying "I'm not buying you hannah montana" isn't exactly like being a Mennonite or something. This is what they want everyone to think, that you'll be socially stunted if you don't have this junk.

I know plenty of people outside the box who raise thoughtful, artistic, happily outside the box young people who can think critically from a young age. They see the different POV and like it. Maybe they aren't thrilled with it when they're four. I have an unusual first RL name, which I was teased for and hated all grade school and now I thank my mom for it all the time.

My favorite color remains to this day princess pepto pink. As a tot my favorite THING was T-rex. Pink T-rex graced my homemade birthday cake.

I just know that not everything I own has to be that color, though I wanted it to be for a duration. Did not get.

Maybe that's why I'm like this...

 

[Martini Man]

I just wanted to throw my male 2 cents out there on the original subject (not that the commerialization of our youth isn't interesting as well...).

I guess you could call me a male sub wannabe. I have never really experienced a scene but have always fantasized about it. Some of what I'm seeing in this thread confirm a lot of the biases I have seen and felt here and at other places. Generally, it feels that male subs are looked down upon by every other group - vanillas, male doms, female doms, and even female subs.

And I'm not sure why that is.

I'm also not really sure where/how to get started. I have read a lot online, but anytime I have tried to make contact with someone that I find interesting I get blown off (not literally of course) or I don't get a response.

The way I see it, I think I'd be a pretty damn good catch for a Domme to play with and teach - I'm very attractive, don't want to top from the bottom, etc...

But I have found it extremely difficult. Maybe there are just a ton of male subs out there (or just posers wanting a lay) and women can be ultra picky?

 

[Netzach]

I just wanted to throw my male 2 cents out there on the original subject (not that the commerialization of our youth isn't interesting as well...).

I guess you could call me a male sub wannabe. I have never really experienced a scene but have always fantasized about it. Some of what I'm seeing in this thread confirm a lot of the biases I have seen and felt here and at other places. Generally, it feels that male subs are looked down upon by every other group - vanillas, male doms, female doms, and even female subs.

And I'm not sure why that is.

It's because some of it is self-fulfilling. It may not be you doing it, but the fact that a lot of guys do what I outlined above the moment they self-identify as a submissive and the fact that some women reinforce and demand this kind of behavior makes it hard for people who want human relations devoid of BS.

I'm also not really sure where/how to get started. I have read a lot online, but anytime I have tried to make contact with someone that I find interesting I get blown off (not literally of course) or I don't get a response.

The way I see it, I think I'd be a pretty damn good catch for a Domme to play with and teach - I'm very attractive, don't want to top from the bottom, etc...

But I have found it extremely difficult. Maybe there are just a ton of male subs out there (or just posers wanting a lay) and women can be ultra picky?

Well, to be harsh about it "teach me" - not a turn on for most women, unless you're looking for a Cougar whose whole sexual raison d'etre is to mold the young and hot. (Give me 30 years or so.)

Here's my thought.

All the same mystifying things in normal vanilla hetero dating still apply - all of them, including being confident, powerful, secure, and take-no-prisoners competitive, without being a dick to her - there's really no marked outward difference at all in how to approach a Dominant woman and any other.

Repeat: NO MARKED DIFFERENCE.

The msubs that women fight over (and there are) are the ones who, if you don't ask them, you assume are Doms at a munch. You look and you have no idea, and being heterosexist, conditioned people, and also because of the numbers game (M/f much more common in general groups, F/m more likely to hang by itself) it's just likely he's a Dom unless he's going out of his way to show how submissive he is, in which case, meh. I want sub to ME not sub to whoever pays attention. Rare is the person attracted to overt male weakness (not emotionality, vulnerability, those are cool - honest weakness) Advertising how weak and how groveling you are is unhot. It lets me know your kink, sure, but seriously, there are sexier ways to convey that info, like as we're stripping down and you fall on the floor at my feet when I'm actually into you. The former doesn't care at all whether I'm into it or not, I'm just a prop.

Um, fine, but for that, I charge. I should get something back.

In power exchange, I want to know that I'm taking some power. It doesn't mean you have to be masculine to have power, either -- there are ways that CD's and fem-identified men convey power, too. Groveling isn't it for anyone. Dressing in frilly pink panties to a meet and greet isn't something I want female bodied or male bodied people around me to do, because the whole point of a streetwear munch has become meaningless thus. But that's another rant.

"Can you teach me" is the same as some guy you've never seen before in your life coming up to you and saying "can you teach me everything you know about your industry, and I could come to you every day at work and follow you around?" Rather than making the relationship THEN asking for mentoring.

Which works better?


The difference is that after you have flirted over drinks like any other adults, you want to go back to her place and be beaten/bossed/made to cry instead of or in addition to wanting to fuck like mink.

That's it. That's really the only marked difference. Whatever makes you a "good catch" out there, makes you one in here, just stick with it and not what you're hoping she'll do for you.

 

[Martini Man]

That makes sense.

However, I think it's very telling that you commented on the "teach" comment I made. It was simply a throw-away statement indicating my lack of experience in the area. However, it seems obvious that that conveyed a wishy-washy, insecure, (uhhhh, looking for a different word than this but not finding it) submisssive attitude that women in general find unattractive. Interesting. I didn't think that would be the case in women who enjoyed playing with subs.

But what I'm hearing is that you want a strong, confident man who you can take pleasure in making your sub.

Well, for the record, I'm much more the confident, intelligent guy than I am the ineffectual, sub type. Which I think is why I want to experience the sub side of me. It's just natural for someone to take a submissive tone when one is talking about their desires in being a sub, at least in my personal experience.

In short.... You women are tough to figure out.

 

[Netzach]

That makes sense.

However, I think it's very telling that you commented on the "teach" comment I made. It was simply a throw-away statement indicating my lack of experience in the area. However, it seems obvious that that conveyed a wishy-washy, insecure, (uhhhh, looking for a different word than this but not finding it) submisssive attitude that women in general find unattractive. Interesting. I didn't think that would be the case in women who enjoyed playing with subs.

But what I'm hearing is that you want a strong, confident man who you can take pleasure in making your sub.

Well, for the record, I'm much more the confident, intelligent guy than I am the ineffectual, sub type. Which I think is why I want to experience the sub side of me. It's just natural for someone to take a submissive tone when one is talking about their desires in being a sub, at least in my personal experience.

In short.... You women are tough to figure out.

No no, that's groovy, I don't want to imply that because you want someone who'll invest the time in your newbness you're going the "grovel grovel" route. But yeah, I'm a woman, I'm Dominant, and that does leap out at me, and it's a red-flag kind of concept when I'm being approached, for sure.

Less hot "teach me"

More hot "I've never clicked with anyone enough to feel comfortable doing this kind of thing yet."

 

[Netzach]

I swear, I think I'm a Domme because I was a royal eunuch or a philosopher slave tutor or something in a past life.

tongue in cheek, isn't woo woo like that