What's wrong with F/m in BDSM and how can we fix it?

[stickwork]

OK, i have called this high-powered summit with the goal of resolving this problem by the end of the weekend. So, LET'S GET TO IT!!!!!

hhhmmm Well, maybe in somewhat serious terms, let's explore some things and see what can be done to resolve misconceptions and make it easier for female PYLs and male pyls in the BDSM community.

Let's start with some stereotypes. The man-hating whip-wielding Dominatrix in it just for the money. The sniveling married man looking for a thrill. The switch woman who bottoms to women but tops men supposedly cus she can't make up her mind, or, she just hates men. The clueless juvenile male who just wants to wank off to any woman who pays attention to him, even if it means pissing off a women to get her to yell at him and abuse him.

Now, how about real. The woman who feels confident in Her dominance and just looking for a nice guy who will obey Her and make Her life more comfortable. The nice guy who is very comfortable in being around a strong woman and doesn't want to be taunted as being emasculated by submitting to a woman. The sadistic woman who loves tormenting the male body, but, who also wants to love the man inside the body. The male pain slut who feels the ultimate that he can give in a relationship with a woman is all of his mind, body, and, soul.

And now, some of the problems, basically as far as the PYLs and pyls getting together. Sometimes the problem is perception. Male pyls whine that there are too few hetero (or bi's seeking males) female PYLs. There are so many wannabe clueless male wankers that the female PYLs can't find the real male pyls. Some women are just now exploring Their PYL side, and, They can't find adequate mentors. New male pyls don't know how to do the right things cus they don't know where to start looking for info and the women are just blowing them off.

Lastly, a more serious issue as it affects the BDSM community. Because of a lot of the stuff listed above, both stereotypes and legitimate issues, some feel that "legitimate" female PYLs and male pyls don't get the respect they deserve in the BDSM community. "Professional" female PYLs are shunned as not being lifestyle, while some that claim to be fulltime lifestyle are shunned if They accept money for some scenes. Male PYLs hit on the female PYLs, thinking that they simply haven't meet the right male yet. And, many simply don't understand how a male could submit to a female PYL - they can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea of it. And, many times that misunderstanding is extended as a lack of respect when a male pyl tries to speak up or assume a leadership position in the community.

So, let's discuss. Obviously there will always be eager young males entering the lifestyle and they need to be slowed down and taught a few things. But, how as a community can we do that? What needs to be done to educate male PYLs that female PYLs really do not want to submit to them? Is this really just ignorance, or, is it stubbornness? Are other problems a lack of compassion or respect? Laziness, or, not taking people seriously enough? Or, are all problems rooted in a hormone imbalance, both males and females (just wanted to see if y'all are reading all the way through)? What can be done to help female PYLs and male pyls find each other through all the junk they have to wade through? Does the internet make all this easier or worse? What can be done specifically on the internet to help? We all seem to get annoyed at the wannabes and the ignorant, and, the fights that break out because of that. So, even if you aren't a female PYL or a male pyl, this affects you to some degree.


Is all this really a problem or not?

The only problem is that I need a translation dictionary to understand this post.

 

[Netzach]

I got it from my momma.

No, seriously she basically said "it is your job to weather all storms..." etc etc.

She said " Just like it is my job to go to work and make money, it is your job to excel at everything that you do. You are not to be rewarded for this, as this is what is expected of you."

My grandmother was harsh on her. It's a woman thing I guess. What can I say?

It's not just an arbitrary woman thing, though. In the case of my family it's becase a penis was a free pass, you didn't have to be perfect. Men reinfoced this with their passivity about all things outside of going to work and getting home, and I've stuck with that plan myself. I am the person whose laundry skills are always being yelled at. Cooking is something else - it has creativity, accolades, and glory in it. I'll do that.

There were low expectations on girls till I was born - I benefitted from being the only one. Had a boy been in my family remotely the same age in any branch I probably would never have done 4 year college let alone the one I did.

I obviously didn't fit the "what I was supposed to do" model since I popped from the womb.

Whatever you do get right, they don't care.

I've won grants, shown in galleries, and I'm the only person to have what I would call successful long term relationships in my family. But I don't have kids and I'm not sitting on a pile of cash.

I realized that there is no win. This game has ever-shifting rules and I don't care to know them, so I live 1500 miles away where they cannot affect me.

 

[intothewoods]

I tend to be drawn to people who are really big personalities and sometimes domineering. Women and men alike. Get a bunch of my female friends in the room and it's not, ohh, sorry, it's my fault. No, mine! It's a giant crazy bitchfest that always ends with everyone comparing nipples.

I'm actually serious about the last part, and I really don't know that's so.

 

[Netzach]

Mine are kind of dark and medium sized, bigger than a quarter smaller than an egg yolk.

 

[Netzach]

So basically the answer to fixing femdom is total feminist utopia?

That seems really sad and impossible to me. Of course I guess if you think of fixing the whole damn thing rather than fixing your patch up, it gets more overwhelming.

Also, I'm not entirely sure that all and every kink isn't *some form of reaction* to the fucked up Way Things Are. I don't feel like my sexuality is a feminist ideal whatsoever, rather an expression in response to a messed up world that I inherited and I'm going to leave, messed up in such fundamental ways that they're worth challenging, but like poverty, they're going to go on.

Kink makes the intolerable tolerable for a short, poetic time in the sphere of my bedroom where "no animals are actually harmed."

Now, feminists who feel that images and ideas can equal rape tend to differ with me on whether I'm hurting other people, but I always thought those people really need to go donate to a womens' shelter or hold some drug-addicted babies or do something that actually improves a woman's life for a couple of hours for every hour they're freaking out over a photo shoot someone was paid well to do.

My sex life is an extention of the messed up stew of postindustrial western culture. It's not the most harmful part of it by a long shot, and you're insane and willfully blind if you think it is. The sex wars are completely misdirected. They just make middle class white women feel like they're really really DOING something. Blergh.

 

[00Syd]

So basically the answer to fixing femdom is total feminist utopia?

That seems really sad and impossible to me. Of course I guess if you think of fixing the whole damn thing rather than fixing your patch up, it gets more overwhelming.

Also, I'm not entirely sure that all and every kink isn't *some form of reaction* to the fucked up Way Things Are. I don't feel like my sexuality is a feminist ideal whatsoever, rather an expression in response to a messed up world that I inherited and I'm going to leave, messed up in such fundamental ways that they're worth challenging, but like poverty, they're going to go on.

Kink makes the intolerable tolerable for a short, poetic time in the sphere of my bedroom where "no animals are actually harmed."

Now, feminists who feel that images and ideas can equal rape tend to differ with me on whether I'm hurting other people, but I always thought those people really need to go donate to a womens' shelter or hold some drug-addicted babies or do something that actually improves a woman's life for a couple of hours for every hour they're freaking out over a photo shoot someone was paid well to do.

My sex life is an extention of the messed up stew of postindustrial western culture. It's not the most harmful part of it by a long shot, and you're insane and willfully blind if you think it is. The sex wars are completely misdirected. They just make middle class white women feel like they're really really DOING something. Blergh.

Yes. Thats pretty close to my exact feelings on much of the way feminism appears nowadays.

 

[subbie_333]

The only problem is that I need a translation dictionary to understand this post.

Many people

who are not

female PYL

or male pyl

have a tendency

to disrespect

those people.



Why,

and,

how

can we

fix that

?

 

[subbie_333]

Wow, what a great thread. I have experienced some level of revulsion in the community because of my 'pyl nature'.

I use the term 'switch' because it is the best fit, but I generally reject any label.

I just do not understand that this community of all communities cannot accept the vast spectrum of desires.

um, OK, just so that there is no misunderstanding. The quote you did of what i said, i said that sarcastically, and, specifically to that wonderful Lady as a joke/tweak from another thread.

i have tried before to give sarcasm alerts at the beginning of my posts where it is warranted. But, i think that most have learned that simply seeing my av acts as a sarcasm alert.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Kink makes the intolerable tolerable for a short, poetic time in the sphere of my bedroom where "no animals are actually harmed."

My sex life is an extention of the messed up stew of postindustrial western culture. It's not the most harmful part of it by a long shot, and you're insane and willfully blind if you think it is. The sex wars are completely misdirected. They just make middle class white women feel like they're really really DOING something. Blergh.

i now officially have a crush on you

 

[ataxia.girl]

My dick has felt entitled since day one.

There are obvious drawbacks to universal assertions, but if any gender based assertion has ever approached universal application, this one is it. The dick's sense of entitlement is there as a matter of course.

Even unsuccessful guys assert their entitlement with the "Women are so picky" charge. Translation: There's something wrong with *women* for messing up the natural way of the world.

For me the converse of the male phallic, divide and conquer, orientation is the female waiting, enticing, and luring which can also be predatory in a venus fly-trap sort of way. The vagina\egg waiting to devour, consume, absorb and even destroy.

Sometimes when i start thinking like this i wonder if i am very sub at all or if that's just the bait.

 

[subbie_333]

i now officially have a crush on you

um, yeah, the line forms WWAAAAYYYYY back over there

 

[Netzach]

For me the converse of the male phallic, divide and conquer, orientation is the female waiting, enticing, and luring which can also be predatory in a venus fly-trap sort of way. The vagina\egg waiting to devour, consume, absorb and even destroy.

Sometimes when i start thinking like this i wonder if i am very sub at all or if that's just the bait.

The act of selection is sometimes kind of brutal in itself. And let's face it, selection is where it's at. Very few species actually reproduce by force. Ducks do. Geese don't. Weird world.

Anyhoo, she who selects holds a trump card, genetically and otherwise.

But is that it?

Is the sum total of my sexual power "guys line up, you, you and you -"

 

[ataxia.girl]

um, yeah, the line forms WWAAAAYYYYY back over there

*saunters off to the back of the line*

 

[Netzach]

For me the converse of the male phallic, divide and conquer, orientation is the female waiting, enticing, and luring which can also be predatory in a venus fly-trap sort of way. The vagina\egg waiting to devour, consume, absorb and even destroy.

Sometimes when i start thinking like this i wonder if i am very sub at all or if that's just the bait.

It's a mutual crush then.

 

[ataxia.girl]

It's a mutual crush then.

*hides*

 

[Essene]

It's not just an arbitrary woman thing, though...

Oh I know, I was just talking out of my ass. Everyone else was making vast generalizations and I desperately wanted to fit in.

I said it knowing full well someone would most likely call it BS. I was in a mood. What can I say?

I am the person whose laundry skills are always being yelled at. Cooking is something else - it has creativity, accolades, and glory in it. I'll do that.

Really? I can't cook for shit. (not that you needed to know that) I like doing the dishes by hand. I'm real good at that. I get to zone out and still feel productive.

Whatever you do get right, they don't care.

I've won grants, shown in galleries, and I'm the only person to have what I would call successful long term relationships in my family. But I don't have kids and I'm not sitting on a pile of cash.

I realized that there is no win. This game has ever-shifting rules and I don't care to know them, so I live 1500 miles away where they cannot affect me.

I'm sorry. That's really unfortunate. I think you're pretty exceptional, but I'll stop with the compliments now - you know before DB comes along and starts calling me a "kiss ass".

So basically the answer to fixing femdom is total feminist utopia?

Yes. *crosses fingers hoping for equal pay*

That seems really sad and impossible to me. Of course I guess if you think of fixing the whole damn thing rather than fixing your patch up, it gets more overwhelming.

Also, I'm not entirely sure that all and every kink isn't *some form of reaction* to the fucked up Way Things Are*

Yes, I suppose this is quite possible. My only solution to the original question at hand then is this: repeated exposure makes those who are uncomfortable able to tolerate, and eventually getting to the point where they come to accept.

As far as teh "F" in F/m goes on this particular site, I think it's seen as okay and acceptable - for the most part.

Let's not even get into what people think of switching. Oye.

Why,

and,

how

can we

fix that

?

Basically darling, we need more quality guys like you around here to show folks that it's possible to be a "real" guy and still like to be bossed around by a woman.

 

[Netzach]

I'm sorry. That's really unfortunate. I think you're pretty exceptional, but I'll stop with the compliments now - you know before DB comes along and starts calling me a "kiss ass".

Oh, my conscious brain has no issues with how great or at least adequate I am. Everyone sees it but my family, and they're not going to. I've accepted that but not having it rubbed in my face daily helps.

As far as teh "F" in F/m goes on this particular site, I think it's seen as okay and acceptable - for the most part.

D'you think maybe because I think there's Bunny, sexycaz, and me, for the amount of active female posters at the mo who actively and frequently discuss the topic of making men uncomfortable as a means to get off? Of course it's OK, it's very fringe. I'm fairly private, too, periodically I'll weigh in on what I like, but it's not like the M/f majority are constantly being assaulted with imagery that isn't their thing.

(Can you imagine?)

Reminding you folks gently that "imagery that's not really my thing, but nice idea" is the majority of what comprises Lit.

I've contributed to threads every once in a while (I don't remember which) and some Mdom inevitably says "that's not my thing" or "that's not my thing but that's hot...." Uh yeah pal. I know -- don't worry everyone knows. I'm not going to leap through the screen and give you a case of the submissives.

I myself even squeak out "that's really hot" to people outside my orientation in spite of the fact that some asshat is going to think it's secretly what I get off to every night. And I have to take this risk because - seriously, have any of you looked at an FDom message board lately?

But I think it should be wondered why six or seven has been a crowd at any given time, of people in F/m orientation.

As for switches, I know there are a lot of you (us I guess, but I still think that label blows for me). Is there a reason most switches post only about bottom activities and bottom orientation? Most switches I've known personally have been of the "can top, have to bottom" school, and very few have been "must top or part of me dies too" orientation. This goes for male and female alike. I also wonder if the top part of their orientation is somehow scarier to others and/or them.

Weirdly, my limited bottom/sub ventures provoke less of me wondering if I'm about to overshare.

 

[JMohegan]

Can i just say THANK YOU for acknowledging this!!! i have no idea why this is so difficult for most men to just acknowledge. The phallic symbol itself is tantamount to entitlement to me. It takes what it wants, that's what it does.

There's nothing wrong with it being what it is. i happen to love them

The fact that my dick feels entitled does not mean that I am a giant prick. I'm a man with a well-developed sense of compassion, a great capacity for love, personal vulnerabilities, and so on. Like everyone else - a complex human being.

This distinction sometimes gets lost in translation, making acknowledgment difficult for some.

There are also guys who are liars, those who don't give a fuck about this type of discussion, those who aren't used to self analysis and are somewhat bewildered by the conversation, those who have zero patience for anything that sounds like it came from the rabid "you're a guy so you're automatically an asshole" types, etc. Lots of possibilities here.

 

[JMohegan]

The act of selection is sometimes kind of brutal in itself. And let's face it, selection is where it's at. Very few species actually reproduce by force. Ducks do. Geese don't. Weird world.

Anyhoo, she who selects holds a trump card, genetically and otherwise.

But is that it?

Is the sum total of my sexual power "guys line up, you, you and you -"

You sound like my mother here.

My sister wryly observed, many times, that I was sent off into the dating world with a slap on the back and a "Good luck! Have fun!" - whereas she was sent off with the directive to protect her Reputation at all costs.

So while I was out there exploring and experimenting and sowing my wild oats all over the place, she was carefully guarding that "desirable wife/mother" trump card.

 

[subbie_333]

Basically darling, we need more quality guys like you around here

aw shucks

to show folks that it's possible to be a "real" guy and still like to be bossed around by a woman.

Not to put words in your mouth or to try ask this with any sort of agenda. But, is that another way of saying that hetero male pyls are viewed by some (many?) as not real people some how? And, the same for female PYLs? If so, since previous posts above have discussed society's influence on women and girls, where does that view come from in regards to the male pyls ?

 

[ataxia.girl]

So while I was out there exploring and experimenting and sowing my wild oats all over the place, she was carefully guarding that "desirable wife/mother" trump card.

And how does she value it now? i know i no longer do.

 

[Homburg]

Not to put words in your mouth or to try ask this with any sort of agenda. But, is that another way of saying that hetero male pyls are not viewed by some (many?) as not real people some how? And, the same for female PYLs? If so, since previous posts above have discussed society's influence on women and girls, where does that view come from in regards to the male pyls ?

Might be ingnorance. I certainly did not understand male pyl's until I started hanging out in a munch group that had them in it. One in particular opened my eyes big time. He's a Viet Nam era special forces guy, not a billy bad-ass, but even as an old dude you know he could probably take you apart. Not a lick of wimp in this cat, and he's competent, funny, confident as hell, functional, and just all around neat guy to hang out with (if a bit out there due to his history). Yet for his mistress he a big old teddy bear, and is happy to wear stockings, punps, etc, and do all sorts of humiliating, painful, and emasculating things. And she does so with love and respect for him. Their relationship is wonderful, and completely erased any misconceptions I might have had regarding male pyls'.

By contrast, we've another bloke that was just positively annoying the first time I met him. The epitomy of the manic, SAM, desperate-for-attention submissive, and he was hound-dogging around a party looking for a beating with a persistence. One of the local Fdom's obliged him, and took him down many pegs. This guy was just flat annoying. A few weeks later, he shows up to a munch, and was apparently not in that mood. He was calm, intelligent, measured, and showed an attentive, engaged attitude towards everyone, not just the Fdoms. Confusing. The first time I met him, he was an annoying stereotype. The second time, he was a good guy, submissive or not. Still, he showed depth, and if he were to keep the second attitude as his regular one, I would wonder why he did not have someone keeping him in his place for her enjoyment.

Either way, meeting these chaps, and others, and getting to know them as people, was what made the difference for me. Ignoring the really self-obssessed stereotype dweebs, male pyls are just people. Guys what happen to like getting bossed around by their women. I've found that I get along just fine with them, same as I do with fsubs, Fdoms, Mdoms, etc. Then again, if we are not in a relationship, your particular orientation is not all that relevant to me, aside from helping me gain perspective on your viewpoint.

Were I to guess, I might posit that some of the antipathy you are talking about comes from internet cowboys that have not spent time around their fellows from other orientations. Prejudice and bigotry is frequently linked to ignorance and a focus on group identity, not individuality.

As to Fdoms and perceptions, I would guess that some of the fault lies in the minor mainstreaming of the image of the Fdom. Ask anyone what a "dominatrix" looks like and acts like and you'll get the typical boots, corset, man-hating/emasculating etc imagery. M/f culture is no more immune to the inculcation of such imagery as anyone else, and are thus likely to have that sort of thing as a pre-concieved notion. Much like my example above, getting to know Fdoms might turn that imagery around. And add in the "SHE WANTS TO HURT MY COCK!" voice screaming in the back of many an Mdom's head, and the fragile egos of many an Mdom, and you can see why Mdoms might have worries.

 

[subbie_333]

And add in the "SHE WANTS TO HURT MY COCK!" voice screaming in the back of many an Mdom's head, and the fragile egos of many an Mdom, and you can see why Mdoms might have worries.

Ah, i was wondering when somebody was gonna hit close to that subject. And, there are several directions i can go, most probably getting people all upset. So, i think i will start with a more mundane question.

If some male PYLs have some type of issue with understanding female PYLs in general, do the male PYLs parlay that confusion (and perhaps "distaste") by projecting a personality type onto male pyls? That is, they may take out some of their confusion, and perhaps anger, on male pyls by sorta deciding to not even try to understand or "like" them.

 

[Homburg]

No clue. I've seen many an fsub have the same confusion/distaste for msubs. They can't deal well with a man that is not an alpha male manly-man, and have issues with msubs as a result. *shrug*

 

[subbie_333]

No clue. I've seen many an fsub have the same confusion/distaste for msubs. They can't deal well with a man that is not an alpha male manly-man, and have issues with msubs as a result. *shrug*

Fair enough. So, the conclusion might be that F/m is simply different from the vanilla society in which we were all raised, and, people have difficulty handling that? If so, what does it take to "fix" that?

Conversely, if the vast majority of vanilla societies throughout the world where F/m, would the M/f people have problems as well? If so, then "all of this" is not specific to gender/hormones.