What's wrong with F/m in BDSM and how can we fix it?

[Martini Man]

Gotcha. I think I need to just get out there and meet some people into the scene and find someone who clicks.

 

[Homburg]

I mean a large part of the problem are that men who want to bottom to us start out every dialogue with "whatcha gotta do is...." based on whatever they've been jerking off to since whenever. It's not that SUB men are like this, it's that men are like this. It's how they're raised to be, just like I've been raised to be more worried about what gives him a boner than what gets me off. The influence is early, permanent and inevitable. I will forever be kinked to people's reactions as much as I am, because I don't have a dick. It's just how it goes.

Something is wrong with my dick then, as I just don't act like this.

Woohoo! So true.

My admittedly biased opinion is that my ex really had that whole doufus helpless male thing drilled into him. You know? That oh, you men are just getting in the way. I can do it better myself! Um, hell no, cope and adjust and lend a hand, thank you.

There's a male gender issue for ya. Gah, parents can be like lethal weapons.

I'm helpless with some things. Utterly clueless to the point of making horrible messes. Putting laundry in front of me to do is tantamount to asking that I buy new clothes, as I will probably destroy them. That said, I can cook. I don't, but can, clean.

The flipside to this is the helpless female when it comes to cars, electronics, etc. I find that so aggravating, as there is nothing wrong with the female brain and basic technical knowledge (yes, men tend to be better with the sort of technical visual thinking, much as women are better with language skills by and large, but it is not enough to say that women are deficient in that area). My girls will know how to do basic maintenance on their cars, and my sons will know how to cook and clean and such. It's just good sense to teach them. I wish my mother had tried a little harder to get me to learn laundry. I'd not have made some of the messes I've made of my own clothes had she done that.

----

Granted.

But, is it really different in the F/m situation? Do we as a community, or at this site, have more patience for the newbie female pyl compared to the newbie male pyl? Sure, one could make the argument that the male gender will be more crude as a newbie pyl. Does that mean that we need to make more of an effort, or a different effort, to correct or educate them? Or, should we treat both gender pyls the same? And, should we then treat newbie PYLs and newbie pyls the same?

I think we do, but simply because of the crudeness. Too many newb pyl's are just penile life-support systems with added fetishy weirdness, as opposed to realised beings presenting themselves with intelligence (current company excepted).

 

[Netzach]

Something is wrong with my dick then, as I just don't act like this.

Dude, you're a Dom.

Of course you do. With style points - you don't act like a schmuck, but you have desires for control, direction, and drivers' seat in bed and you expect to get what YOU want, right?

There is nothing wrong with this, it's a beautiful thing. Except when it's presented as "anything Mistress (but I really mean me) wants."
That's a super creepy form of sexism that makes me think I'd be better off on planet Gor.

 

[Netzach]

I think we do, but simply because of the crudeness. Too many newb pyl's are just penile life-support systems with added fetishy weirdness, as opposed to realised beings presenting themselves with intelligence (current company excepted).

This could easily be said about male Dominants in the scene, but isn't.

They're "dangerous predators" they're not pathetic wannabes. Except often they are - you know what I speak of, spend five minutes in the dating pool IRL and you see who's Master of the Universe because he's not even master of the toaster in the morning.

 

[Essene]

This could easily be said about male Dominants in the scene, but isn't.

They're "dangerous predators" they're not pathetic wannabes. Except often they are - you know what I speak of, spend five minutes in the dating pool IRL and you see who's Master of the Universe because he's not even master of the toaster in the morning.

*laugh*

I'm going over to the cafe for a latte. You want anything?

 

[JMohegan]

My dick has felt entitled since day one.

There are obvious drawbacks to universal assertions, but if any gender based assertion has ever approached universal application, this one is it. The dick's sense of entitlement is there as a matter of course.

Even unsuccessful guys assert their entitlement with the "Women are so picky" charge. Translation: There's something wrong with *women* for messing up the natural way of the world.

 

[Essene]

But I have found it extremely difficult. Maybe there are just a ton of male subs out there (or just posers wanting a lay) and women can be ultra picky?

I echo what Netzach said for the most part.

Not ultra picky. In fact if you lived near me I'd at least have dinner with you and give you a chance.

Seems like you got it though. Good luck.

My dick has felt entitled since day one.

There are obvious drawbacks to universal assertions, but if any gender based assertion has ever approached universal application, this one is it. The dick's sense of entitlement is there as a matter of course.

Even unsuccessful guys assert their entitlement with the "Women are so picky" charge. Translation: There's something wrong with *women* for messing up the natural way of the world.

*nod*

So where would you say this begins though? Do you think that it is inherent somehow in the species, or is it more of a societal influence?

 

[JMohegan]

*nod*

So where would you say this begins though? Do you think that it is inherent somehow in the species, or is it more of a societal influence?

I could try to concoct some theory, based on the idea of pre-historic males wandering through the forest grabbing random females by the hair, forcing them to the ground, fucking at will, and in the process spreading their seed hither and yon.... but concocting this theory would probably just succeed in getting me all worked up more than anything else!

My answer to your question is that I have no idea how much is inherent in the species, but I *can* point to a thousand ways in which modern American society reinforces and drives home this message.

 

[Essene]

I could try to concoct some theory, based on the idea of pre-historic males wandering through the forest grabbing random females by the hair, forcing them to the ground, fucking at will, and in the process spreading their seed hither and yon.... but concocting this theory would probably just succeed in getting me all worked up more than anything else!

My answer to your question is that I have no idea how much is inherent in the species, but I *can* point to a thousand ways in which modern American society reinforces and drives home this message.

*laugh* Yeah. This was my thinking as well, and thank you for your input.

And now I feel as though I've come full circle, and once again am thinking about the way I parent my child.

I mean don't get me wrong. The former part of your statement was hot for sure, but the latter is the only thing I have any control over.

 

[Netzach]

My dick has felt entitled since day one.

There are obvious drawbacks to universal assertions, but if any gender based assertion has ever approached universal application, this one is it. The dick's sense of entitlement is there as a matter of course.

Even unsuccessful guys assert their entitlement with the "Women are so picky" charge. Translation: There's something wrong with *women* for messing up the natural way of the world.

Yes yes yes. There's always something wrong with the woman who doesn't want to go out with you, doesn't want to fuck you, or told you she doesn't want to fuck you any longer, no thanks.

With women it's *always* oh there must be something wrong with me.

Which makes me wonder - is it power, or is it a case of self esteem so brittle it can't flex very well?

I love men, I really do.

 

[Homburg]

Dude, you're a Dom.

Of course you do. With style points - you don't act like a schmuck, but you have desires for control, direction, and drivers' seat in bed and you expect to get what YOU want, right?

There is nothing wrong with this, it's a beautiful thing. Except when it's presented as "anything Mistress (but I really mean me) wants."
That's a super creepy form of sexism that makes me think I'd be better off on planet Gor.

I would hope so. Just mentioning that all dicks aren't this way =P

This could easily be said about male Dominants in the scene, but isn't.

They're "dangerous predators" they're not pathetic wannabes. Except often they are - you know what I speak of, spend five minutes in the dating pool IRL and you see who's Master of the Universe because he's not even master of the toaster in the morning.

It frikken should be. Then again, I'm personally no more accepting of new Mdoms posting than I am of new Msubs. If anything, I am less accepting. My likelihood of annoyance is higher.

Yes yes yes. There's always something wrong with the woman who doesn't want to go out with you, doesn't want to fuck you, or told you she doesn't want to fuck you any longer, no thanks.

With women it's *always* oh there must be something wrong with me.

Which makes me wonder - is it power, or is it a case of self esteem so brittle it can't flex very well?

I love men, I really do.

This is another thing I don't grok about mine own sex. Men are fucked up, and just as likely as the woman to be the source of trouble in a relationship. Yet we always blame the woman. Stupid.

Men are always talking about how incomprehensible women are, and we're just as bad. We just clothe our stupidity differently.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm helpless with some things. Utterly clueless to the point of making horrible messes. Putting laundry in front of me to do is tantamount to asking that I buy new clothes, as I will probably destroy them. That said, I can cook. I don't, but can, clean.

The flipside to this is the helpless female when it comes to cars, electronics, etc. I find that so aggravating, as there is nothing wrong with the female brain and basic technical knowledge (yes, men tend to be better with the sort of technical visual thinking, much as women are better with language skills by and large, but it is not enough to say that women are deficient in that area). My girls will know how to do basic maintenance on their cars, and my sons will know how to cook and clean and such. It's just good sense to teach them. I wish my mother had tried a little harder to get me to learn laundry. I'd not have made some of the messes I've made of my own clothes had she done that.

*twitch* So learn. Oh, oops, I'm not the boss of you. I guess you and yours have that worked out. I didn't with my last, but I do with my current! It's not so much that you must be able to do x, y and z anyway. It's this odd reinforced stereotype of the man as a helpless clutz. Act helpless and someone will take care of it for you. Both men and women can be guilty of this, and I hate it. If you can't do something, don't want to do something, won't do something, whatever, that's fine, it just needs to be part of the negotation. I think all people should be taught how to negotiate with a partner, D/s not a prequisite.

My dick has felt entitled since day one.

As in, out of the womb?? I'm not sure what to say to this. *ponders*

 

[Essene]

Edit: Okay, I take part of this back.

I'm aggressive by nature, and submissive by nurture. Both facets are very much a part of me, and I need to appreciate both equally. Feeling free to be assertive is usually a healthier thing for me, whereas being submissive tends to trigger really unhealthy masochism for me when it goes badly.

Okay. Now I'm done.

With women it's *always* oh there must be something wrong with me.

I know there's something wrong with me.

I grew up in an environment where I was expected to be perfect. I was expected to behave, be pretty, take care of others, never cry, and to get straight A's. I was never rewarded for these things - they were expected of me.

So throw that in with a naturally curious person and all dysfunction erupts.

The end of a relationship exacerbates the control freak/perfectionist in me.

If it failed then I need to re-examine where I went wrong. Now you may say "hey that's great. All folks should get all introspective and think about their actions" But I take it to a whole other level - at least for a little while. I do have some semblence of a thinking brain.

I think a lot of women have this issue for similar reasons that I do, it just may not be as grotesquely intense.

 

[JMohegan]

As in, out of the womb?? I'm not sure what to say to this. *ponders*

I gave very little thought to females when I was a kid.

I meant "day one" as in whenever I first started thinking about my dick with a sexual purpose.

 

[Homburg]

*twitch* So learn. Oh, oops, I'm not the boss of you. I guess you and yours have that worked out.

Yup, that problem has been long worked out.

 

[ataxia.girl]

My dick has felt entitled since day one.

There are obvious drawbacks to universal assertions, but if any gender based assertion has ever approached universal application, this one is it. The dick's sense of entitlement is there as a matter of course.

Even unsuccessful guys assert their entitlement with the "Women are so picky" charge. Translation: There's something wrong with *women* for messing up the natural way of the world.

Can i just say THANK YOU for acknowledging this!!! i have no idea why this is so difficult for most men to just acknowledge. The phallic symbol itself is tantamount to entitlement to me. It takes what it wants, that's what it does.

There's nothing wrong with it being what it is. i happen to love them

 

[CutieMouse]

The flipside to this is the helpless female when it comes to cars, electronics, etc. I find that so aggravating, as there is nothing wrong with the female brain and basic technical knowledge (yes, men tend to be better with the sort of technical visual thinking, much as women are better with language skills by and large, but it is not enough to say that women are deficient in that area).

Dude - do not underestimate the brain power it takes to explain to the computer store sales guy that your boss wants a thingie (yes I used that word) that will make the round end of the keyboard cable fit a USB port thingie (yes I used it again) on the back of the tower.

The slightly helpless/lost chick with the great smile thing greased the conversation just enough to break the language barrier between "thingie-speak" and "whateveritwas to USB port converter speak." It's nothing but a tool in the arsenal.




*pokes at Homburg*

 

[Homburg]

Dude - do not underestimate the brain power it takes to explain to the computer store sales guy that your boss wants a thingie (yes I used that word) that will make the round end of the keyboard cable fit a USB port thingie (yes I used it again) on the back of the tower.

The slightly helpless/lost chick with the great smile thing greased the conversation just enough to break the language barrier between "thingie-speak" and "whateveritwas to USB port converter speak." It's nothing but a tool in the arsenal.




*pokes at Homburg*

Now, see, this is another topic entirely. I can't tell you how many times I have been asked for insurance advice, and I told the person, "Act a little dumb, but friendly. Don't use any of the words I'm using right now". Clueless and friendly work wonders, and I use them frequently.

It's actual cluelessness that I have a problem with. Sure, modern engines are bloody complex, but if you understand the core mechanics, it's dead simple. That understanding can be handy to prevent fraud at the repair shop. And it can be learned in a few minutes at sites like howstuffworks.com and the like.

Hell, I've got some friendly extortion planned. I took the wife's van in for an inspection and they said it needed front brakes. I told em I'd do it myself, and did, and found that my front pads are still plenty legal. 4/32" left when under 2/3s" is what it takes to fail them, so not an inconsiderable number and one that is obvious to the naked eye. In fact, after years of measuring 32nds of an inch at work, I eyeballed it at 4/32" when I pulled it, and the micrometer came out with the same numbers. If I can eyeball the pads, so can the tech. They're trying to screw me over, or their tech is incredibly incompetent.

So I'm going to use the fact that I can make a phone call to the state police and get some heavy fines levied against that shop to get them to forgive a few pure judgement call items that would cost me some coin. And if they mess with me, then me and my micrometer (yes, I keep a micrometer in my tool box, two actually) will have a chat with Mr State Trooper

*grabs the pokey finger*

 

[CutieMouse]

Clueless and friendly work wonders, and I use them frequently.

Soooooooooo tempted to say something smart assed right now.



Glad to know cute 'n clueless gets a pass...

 

[midwestyankee]

Yes yes yes. There's always something wrong with the woman who doesn't want to go out with you, doesn't want to fuck you, or told you she doesn't want to fuck you any longer, no thanks.

With women it's *always* oh there must be something wrong with me.

Which makes me wonder - is it power, or is it a case of self esteem so brittle it can't flex very well?

I love men, I really do.

To begin, my in-depth experience with women is somewhat limited. That said, a not insignificant percentage of the women I've known well (in that Old Testament meets New Testament way, if you will) have had what I think of as a martyr methodology. They approach life as if all the bounty they receive is from dumbass luck and all the bad fortune that comes their way is their fault. Further, they seem to have the mindset that it's their role in life to endure, to persevere, to weather all storms, to assume responsibility for all that goes on around them.

I don't know how this came to be, and I freely admit that this is not a representative sample and so I'm not trying to claim that my experience allows me to generalize accurately. But there may be some relationship between my experience and the contrast that Netzach drew above.

Perhaps others can elucidate here (or at least add some insight).

In the spirit of Netz's post, I do also love women. I truly do.

 

[intothewoods]

To begin, my in-depth experience with women is somewhat limited. That said, a not insignificant percentage of the women I've known well (in that Old Testament meets New Testament way, if you will) have had what I think of as a martyr methodology. They approach life as if all the bounty they receive is from dumbass luck and all the bad fortune that comes their way is their fault. Further, they seem to have the mindset that it's their role in life to endure, to persevere, to weather all storms, to assume responsibility for all that goes on around them.

I don't know how this came to be, and I freely admit that this is not a representative sample and so I'm not trying to claim that my experience allows me to generalize accurately. But there may be some relationship between my experience and the contrast that Netzach drew above.

Perhaps others can elucidate here (or at least add some insight).

In the spirit of Netz's post, I do also love women. I truly do.

It's just a personality type. Some women are like this. Some women think everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault.

 

[midwestyankee]

It's just a personality type. Some women are like this. Some women think everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault.

Who said that logical deduction and empirical observation had anything to do with it?

 

[wouldloveto]

Ya know, some people think that switches should just go out and kill themselves. Now, that's not me saying that, it's just something i've heard

Wow, what a great thread. I have experienced some level of revulsion in the community because of my 'pyl nature'.

I use the term 'switch' because it is the best fit, but I generally reject any label.

I just do not understand that this community of all communities cannot accept the vast spectrum of desires.

 

[Netzach]

It's just a personality type. Some women are like this. Some women think everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault.

Dude, I have definitely met more in the former camp. Not that I've met every woman on earth, but I know that if I'm feeling kicked I go to the mental lands MW describes and have to get out the toolkit I got in therapy to get out of them.

 

[Essene]

To begin, my in-depth experience with women is somewhat limited. That said, a not insignificant percentage of the women I've known well (in that Old Testament meets New Testament way, if you will) have had what I think of as a martyr methodology. They approach life as if all the bounty they receive is from dumbass luck and all the bad fortune that comes their way is their fault. Further, they seem to have the mindset that it's their role in life to endure, to persevere, to weather all storms, to assume responsibility for all that goes on around them.

I don't know how this came to be, and I freely admit that this is not a representative sample and so I'm not trying to claim that my experience allows me to generalize accurately. But there may be some relationship between my experience and the contrast that Netzach drew above.

Perhaps others can elucidate here (or at least add some insight).

In the spirit of Netz's post, I do also love women. I truly do.

I got it from my momma.

No, seriously she basically said "it is your job to weather all storms..." etc etc.

She said " Just like it is my job to go to work and make money, it is your job to excel at everything that you do. You are not to be rewarded for this, as this is what is expected of you."

My grandmother was harsh on her. It's a woman thing I guess. What can I say?