What's wrong with F/m in BDSM and how can we fix it?

[Netzach]

Good point. But, it isn't hard to imagine a trashy novel in which the relationship is F/m, the F is kidnapped, and, the m rescues Her.

I've read some really interesting analyses of those things, including the theory that it's all about rescue by Mom (right down to the inflated pecs pics)

I never really got into reading them, so I can't really speak to it.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm trying to figure out how I feel about this one.

Because when a guy has to have "butch cred" I think there's a degree of homophobia in operation when a bunch of pretty much het and semi-bi people get together (I like to kiss girls, but I'd never you know, fall in LOVE with one, ew) and I think that's part of it, and that's crap.

But then the same men annoy the living shit out of me, and I don't think it's just that, I think it's an annoying needy non-personality thing happening. As discussed at length above. And I have to wonder if chilled out femmy CD guys wouldn't be greeted just as warmly as butch ones, if everyone would just take it all down a few notches.

I really lament the fact that the "streetwear munch" at least in my region is very very "wear your corset and collar and let your freak hang out" because to me, the whole POINT of a non-play gathering is so that people who have to remain closeted can go, meet people and have no concerns about their company visually outing them. At a successful streetwear munch you would, in theory *have no idea who is what* other than by asking or maybe secret wristband colors or big straws versus little straws or something subtle and not vulgar. Instead of people virtually wearing signs that say "I want you to BEAT MY ASS."

Now that may seem hypocritical, I guess. I like to be out and overt. At you know, pride. And at, you know, conventions. And NOT when it's not welcome. And it should not be welcome at these public, tense, first-exposure-to-the-community events.

I told a vanilla friend recently about my bdsm interests and my local group, and she kept asking, seriously, what goes on at "happy hour" wink wink. And I kept saying, seriously, it's happy hour. People do not wear corsets or collars or anything like that. It's held at a gay bar, and not Olive Garden or whatever, but it's frowned upon to really act up. Most people just hang out.

The only stereotypical msubs I've ever met were clients of proDommes. The msubs I know I can't even categorize. Some are straight, some are straight but like a bit of forced bi, some are gender queer, some are bi, some are queer.

I'm not telling you to move, but I don't know, I think bigger urban centers have more variety in the kink community. I'd seriously barf three ways until Tuesday if I had to follow a certain protocol or act like anyone other than myself. The only weirdness I feel is as one of the rare monogamous people who keeps her underwear on at a party. We've got other mono's, but their definition of mono is different from mine and Mister Man's.

 

[Netzach]

I told a vanilla friend recently about my bdsm interests and my local group, and she kept asking, seriously, what goes on at "happy hour" wink wink. And I kept saying, seriously, it's happy hour. People do not wear corsets or collars or anything like that. It's held at a gay bar, and not Olive Garden or whatever, but it's frowned upon to really act up. Most people just hang out.

The only stereotypical msubs I've ever met were clients of proDommes. The msubs I know I can't even categorize. Some are straight, some are straight but like a bit of forced bi, some are gender queer, some are bi, some are queer.

I'm not telling you to move, but I don't know, I think bigger urban centers have more variety in the kink community. I'd seriously barf three ways until Tuesday if I had to follow a certain protocol or act like anyone other than myself. The only weirdness I feel is as one of the rare monogamous people who keeps her underwear on at a party. We've got other mono's, but their definition of mono is different from mine and Mister Man's.

This is a big city with a scene probably bigger and more cohesive than Chicago's.
However - this is my irk with it.

Your area is one of the ONLY places I've ever been with that level of sophistication about it - it's very unique. You guys have a LOT of good things going down there. It's the most sophisticated, diverse, and mature scene I've rubbed shoulders with.

 

[JMohegan]

um, actually that is what i thought i was doing by creating this thread. And, it was helped by a little push from Netzach.



Ah, now see, i think that is part of the problem. i am talking about the "BDSM community". Why would i or anybody want to decide we don't want to commune with those who are different within the community? Yes, we can have different kinks and play with different people. But, we are part of the big umbrella of "BDSM". Otherwise, we start promoting "my kink is OK, but yours is not". Or, the analogy in vanilla society would be "create your own society - by seceding from the union".

Very specifically, which "BDSM community" are you talking about? Your local group in Georgia?

My reasons for not wanting to "commune" with organized kink groups vary. I am neither an exhibitionist nor a voyeur, so (random demos or workshops aside) I have no sustained interest in groups with a public play focus. I'm also not into modern BDSM culture (collars, fetishwear, titles, and such), which means that I'm not even welcome in some places. Further, a lot of M/f organized settings have the feel of group role play to me. And again, I'm just not into that type of thing.

So there's nothing they have that I want on a regular or repeated basis - except potential contact with people whom I "get" on a personal level. (Netzach is right, that's exactly what I meant.) This has nothing to do with saying anybody's kink is not okay.

I've picked up a bunch of friends over the years, from a variety of kinky settings. We get together to dine, hike, party, play ball, whatever. An appreciation for kink may be how we found each other, but it's not why we hang out.

For what it's worth, I gave you the same advice I give female subs or any other kinky person looking for support. Kinky people tend to know other kinky people. Head to as many local organizations as possible, and start to form your own group of friends.

 

[subbie_333]

Very specifically, which "BDSM community" are you talking about? Your local group in Georgia?

My reasons for not wanting to "commune" with organized kink groups vary. I am neither an exhibitionist nor a voyeur, so (random demos or workshops aside) I have no sustained interest in groups with a public play focus. I'm also not into modern BDSM culture (collars, fetishwear, titles, and such), which means that I'm not even welcome in some places. Further, a lot of M/f organized settings have the feel of group role play to me. And again, I'm just not into that type of thing.

So there's nothing they have that I want on a regular or repeated basis - except potential contact with people whom I "get" on a personal level. (Netzach is right, that's exactly what I meant.) This has nothing to do with saying anybody's kink is not okay.

I've picked up a bunch of friends over the years, from a variety of kinky settings. We get together to dine, hike, party, play ball, whatever. An appreciation for kink may be how we found each other, but it's not why we hang out.

For what it's worth, I gave you the same advice I give female subs or any other kinky person looking for support. Kinky people tend to know other kinky people. Head to as many local organizations as possible, and start to form your own group of friends.

The "BDSM community" that i am referring to is those human beings whose activities fall somewhere under the vast umbrella of all the definitions of BDSM, and, who wish to be with others who practice BDSM activities.

As long as individuals who practice some type of BDSM are persecuted simply for practicing BDSM, there is a benefit to having a BDSM community. To get very specific, i don't want to get arrested for having another consulting adult spank me in the privacy of my own home. There are some in the United States who wish to have me and that other person arrested for that. Having a BDSM community allows individuals to band together to gain and preserve our rights to practice BDSM. Purposely fracturing such a community makes no sense (united we stand, divided we fall, blah blah blah). So, i have no desire to go off and form my own branch of BDSM with just my friends. If you do not wish to join in such a community, that's fine with me.

 

[JMohegan]

The "BDSM community" that i am referring to is those human beings whose activities fall somewhere under the vast umbrella of all the definitions of BDSM, and, who wish to be with others who practice BDSM activities.

As long as individuals who practice some type of BDSM are persecuted simply for practicing BDSM, there is a benefit to having a BDSM community. To get very specific, i don't want to get arrested for having another consulting adult spank me in the privacy of my own home. There are some in the United States who wish to have me and that other person arrested for that. Having a BDSM community allows individuals to band together to gain and preserve our rights to practice BDSM. Purposely fracturing such a community makes no sense (united we stand, divided we fall, blah blah blah). So, i have no desire to go off and form my own branch of BDSM with just my friends. If you do not wish to join in such a community, that's fine with me.

The NCSF? Nothing I suggested precludes active participation in, or support for, that group.

 

[Netzach]

The better question to me, is not so much "how to we fix our PR problem" but "how to we make this whole gig more attractive to women who are curious about weilding power in bed, but don't necessarily think they want to lock their man in a cockcage till his dick falls off or all the other extreme fictional shit you're supposed to want, supposedly."

or "how to we tap female fantasy and appeal to womens' sexuality, not men's fantasies about it?"

*quotes self, runs in circles, stomps maryjanes, whines, cries, pees on rug*

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

(not counting ag who had some response at least)

 

[ataxia.girl]

*quotes self, runs in circles, stomps maryjanes, whines, cries, pees on rug*

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

(not counting ag who had some response at least)

Unfortunately I'm too busy masturbating to my new "The Professional" meets DoD fantasy to comment further.

I'll be worse than the typical msub by morning complete with script.

If I could just let go of my need to be authentically controlled I'd be all set.

 

[JMohegan]

*quotes self, runs in circles, stomps maryjanes, whines, cries, pees on rug*

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

(not counting ag who had some response at least)

*chuckles*

I have no idea, but that was a very entertaining visual!

 

[Netzach]

Unfortunately I'm too busy masturbating to my new "The Professional" meets DoD to comment further.

I'll be worse than the typical msub by morning complete with script.

If I could just let go of my need to be authentically controlled I'd be all set.

If I had one of those I'd be so screwed.

 

[Netzach]

*sigh*

I dunno. Maybe those kinds of sea changes are too much to hope for, liberator internet notwithstanding.

I do think that if I had been treated by straight mainstream SM the way I was treated by GLBT Leather I would have grown faster and less painfully. The latter has higher expecations of its noobs, I find, and a less mass roleplay feel, in spite of people thinking all those chaps and vests are really codified and weird.

The breakdown is that a lot of top women come in with a lack of confidence, which is only natural when your whole life you are getting the message "hitting people is bad DO NOT WANT" - in Leather it was like "oh, get over it, here's how you do it, go ahead you won't kill anyone, he loves it...see, you're good at this!" In straight circles it was "you are clearly a switch - see if you were a REAL DOMME you'd just know how to do this with NO hesitation, come, bottom to me!" And naively, I guessed this was true, I was a flexible switch if that many people saw it in me - who the hell was I to think I might be competent enough or deserving enough to just have what I actually fantasize about? You know, like all the men around me. I should make myself sweat harder for it because - I don't know why because. Because I was a 23 year old woman.

Got mired down in a lot of hesitation. Not that I regret most of the bottoming, just some of it. I'm frustrated with how easily I was shoved around, and I know this is part of why I'm usually one of a tenth of the population in the room at most - the fact that I'm probably more of a pushover and more patient than a lot of other women, truth be told. It got me to stick it out where I'm sure a lot of other people are like "yeah right, DO NOT WANT." And they're outta there.

The problem is the creation of a culture that loves to make sure everyone lines up on the outside and the inside - or the "we are all highly functioning leaders here" trope (subs are all balancing out being CEOS, Masters are all CEOS) what the fuck, I was an underpaid admin at this point in my life and fairly beaten up in all things non-academic. I'm not especially bossy, though I can be pretty bristly and tenacious when my sense of outrage is poked or I sense stupidity in action. In other words - I don't wear it. When I showed up I didn't wear it, anyway, couldn't wear it at all. Just boiled over with these desires I still feel like I'm pulling my panties down whenever I talk about them.

So if I don't wear it, and I have a vagina, the logic is that I'm submissive. I'm submissive waiting to be unlocked and shown the Way.

Solution: wear it all the freaking time (front, roleplay, act like a bot) or have it challenged every waking moment. Who's going to keep showing up to this soiree except for people who LOVE to act like bots? Or people who are SO mellow they just let everything roll off. Or people who have made some connections with a small circle who don't doubt it and don't care to interrogate it every moment, even if what makes me hot doesn't make them hot.

One of the most telling realizations I had was that for a while I was trying to find women to bottom to. Oy. I was hard pressed to find someone I'd let hit me with a ping pong paddle. I landed on a very volatile young femme lesbian bottom, kind of a flighty sort, but a very talented player. With more top skills than most of the Dommes I could think of put together. In one hand. One night with her taught me the way my boys feel when they are left babbling stupidity and wanting to impress while they do it.

I KNOW being female and Dominant does not mean you are a neurotic flake by default, I know it - it's just that nearly everyone else is driven screaming from the culture. (I'm a neurotic flake to a degree, but I'd let me hit me)

 

[BiBunny]

The breakdown is that a lot of top women come in with a lack of confidence, which is only natural when your whole life you are getting the message "hitting people is bad DO NOT WANT" - in Leather it was like "oh, get over it, here's how you do it, go ahead you won't kill anyone, he loves it...see, you're good at this!" In straight circles it was "you are clearly a switch - see if you were a REAL DOMME you'd just know how to do this with NO hesitation, come, bottom to me!" And naively, I guessed this was true, I was a flexible switch and whatever - who the hell was I to think I might be competent enough or deserving enough to just have what I actually fantasize about?

Quoted for truth. I've been Topping on and off for 4 years, and I STILL have massive confidence problems, especially with a.) someone I've never played with before and b.) someone with way more experience than me. I'm just slowly learning everything through that rather difficult school of trial and error.

Back to what you said about switches--sometimes I think some of us say that we live to bottom and like to Top because, let's face it, it doesn't really require that much confidence to bottom.

Like, nowadays, I get all iffy and "DO NOT WANT" on bottom 99% of the time, but there was a time when I was first getting started that I preferred to bottom, even if I didn't feel that "ooh, please tie me up" feeling with the other person, just because, hey, not much was expected of me on bottom. I'm getting better, though. My confidence wavers and falters a good bit, but since I've learned that my submission is INCREDIBLY contextual, I don't fall back to "well, you can tie ME up instead" as a way to avoid the uncomfortableness. Forging on through the insecurities is really making me a better Top.

Blah. Did that make any sense? I'm exhausted, so I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't.

 

[Netzach]

Quoted for truth. I've been Topping on and off for 4 years, and I STILL have massive confidence problems, especially with a.) someone I've never played with before and b.) someone with way more experience than me. I'm just slowly learning everything through that rather difficult school of trial and error.

Back to what you said about switches--sometimes I think some of us say that we live to bottom and like to Top because, let's face it, it doesn't really require that much confidence to bottom.

Like, nowadays, I get all iffy and "DO NOT WANT" on bottom 99% of the time, but there was a time when I was first getting started that I preferred to bottom, even if I didn't feel that "ooh, please tie me up" feeling with the other person, just because, hey, not much was expected of me on bottom. I'm getting better, though. My confidence wavers and falters a good bit, but since I've learned that my submission is INCREDIBLY contextual, I don't fall back to "well, you can tie ME up instead" as a way to avoid the uncomfortableness. Forging on through the insecurities is really making me a better Top.

Blah. Did that make any sense? I'm exhausted, so I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't.

Makes total sense.

Like I said, I don't regret the bottoming stuff largely for that reason, it got me into the game in a way, and it helped me kind of pre-map the feelings I wanted to instill in other people before I realized it was ok, I could do that.

(I don't group in my play with my top in that mess, either - that's unique in itself and doesn't relate to any of those other forays with other people. It feels genuine and worthwhile to me and different from the same concepts with anyone else)

I just really could have done without the headgames people chose to unleash on me rather than *asking* me what I wanted and respecting it.

I still waver immensely, and I have a lot of zero-confidence days with M of all the people in the world. Probably because with him I want to get and keep it right so bad. Actually I think that's pretty normal for tops though, there've been threads about that one before.

 

[BiBunny]

Makes total sense.

Like I said, I don't regret the bottoming stuff largely for that reason, it got me into the game in a way, and it helped me kind of pre-map the feelings I wanted to instill in other people before I realized it was ok, I could do that.

(I don't group in my play with my top in that mess, either - that's unique in itself and doesn't relate to any of those other forays with other people. It feels genuine and worthwhile to me and different from the same concepts with anyone else)

I just really could have done without the headgames people chose to unleash on me rather than *asking* me what I wanted and respecting it.

I still waver immensely, and I have a lot of zero-confidence days with M of all the people in the world. Probably because with him I want to get and keep it right so bad. Actually I think that's pretty normal for tops though, there've been threads about that one before.

*Nods*

Sometimes I still question my own orientation, which, I guess, is pretty stupid at this point. I mean, if it makes me wet to beat a man's ass, then there's probably really no doubt what's going on.

I think I just listened to the same kind of bullshit you described for way too long.

 

[Netzach]

*Nods*

Sometimes I still question my own orientation, which, I guess, is pretty stupid at this point. I mean, if it makes me wet to beat a man's ass, then there's probably really no doubt what's going on.

I think I just listened to the same kind of bullshit you described for way too long.

Well, it's not just a figment of my imagination, that's cool. Sometimes I think I'm really too cranky.

 

[Homburg]

I still waver immensely, and I have a lot of zero-confidence days with M of all the people in the world. Probably because with him I want to get and keep it right so bad. Actually I think that's pretty normal for tops though, there've been threads about that one before.

YEah, I'd say it's common. Tops are still human after all.

 

[ataxia.girl]

who the hell was I to think I might be competent enough or deserving enough to just have what I actually fantasize about? You know, like all the men around me. I should make myself sweat harder for it because - I don't know why because. Because I was a 23 year old woman.

i'm 34 and still don't think i deserve it. i demand it but i'm hung up on that piece. Since i don't think i deserve it its no fun when i get it after i demand it. Its sooooo stupid. i need them to demand it for me as if it is what they want and i get angry and frustrated if they don't read my mind and do just that. lame lame lame.

 

[Essene]

Second longest post evah

D'you think maybe because I think there's Bunny, sexycaz, and me, for the amount of active female posters at the mo who actively and frequently discuss the topic of making men uncomfortable as a means to get off? Of course it's OK, it's very fringe.
<SNIP>

But I think it should be wondered why six or seven has been a crowd at any given time, of people in F/m orientation.

As for switches, I know there are a lot of you (us I guess, but I still think that label blows for me). Is there a reason most switches post only about bottom activities and bottom orientation? Most switches I've known personally have been of the "can top, have to bottom" school, and very few have been "must top or part of me dies too" orientation. This goes for male and female alike. I also wonder if the top part of their orientation is somehow scarier to others and/or them.

Weirdly, my limited bottom/sub ventures provoke less of me wondering if I'm about to overshare.

Well apparently a lot of conversatin' happened while I was at work today. I'm hanging onto this because I'll hopefully be able to answer it further down.

aw shucks
Not to put words in your mouth or to try ask this with any sort of agenda. But, is that another way of saying that hetero male pyls are viewed by some (many?) as not real people some how? And, the same for female PYLs? If so, since previous posts above have discussed society's influence on women and girls, where does that view come from in regards to the male pyls ?

I think so. As far as society is concerned, I think it gives male pyls poor self image if anything. It's discouraging to say the least.

Were I to guess, I might posit that some of the antipathy you are talking about comes from internet cowboys that have not spent time around their fellows from other orientations. Prejudice and bigotry is frequently linked to ignorance and a focus on group identity, not individuality.

As to Fdoms and perceptions, I would guess that some of the fault lies in the minor mainstreaming of the image of the Fdom. Ask anyone what a "dominatrix" looks like and acts like and you'll get the typical boots, corset, man-hating/emasculating etc imagery. M/f culture is no more immune to the inculcation of such imagery as anyone else, and are thus likely to have that sort of thing as a pre-concieved notion. Much like my example above, getting to know Fdoms might turn that imagery around. And add in the "SHE WANTS TO HURT MY COCK!" voice screaming in the back of many an Mdom's head, and the fragile egos of many an Mdom, and you can see why Mdoms might have worries.

I think you have much of it right there Hom.

Internet cowboys though? I think it's far more of a societal thing. Let's talk about my dad for instance. Het. dominant male. He has a couple of gay friends - who he's okay with. He has a couple of friends of various minority origins, and he's okay with them. As people he says "That's my friend, and I know them as a person, therefore they're okay." But when it comes to the group that the person belongs to as a whole, he will be the first one to make a bad non-PC joke or derogatory comment.

The most frustrating thing for me is to try to rationalize with him as to why his misconceptions about the group are in fact misconceptions. His friends with all of their good qualities must be exceptions to the rule.

I think I see that around here a decent amount.

The thing I kept thinking is how through repeated exposure in society over time, with a movement to improve equality, helped gay folk.

I never thought I'd see the day when being a lipstick lesbian caricature was cool. It sucks for the time being, but ultimately helps the community in the long run as it opens doors to more acceptance.

Gay men still get the short end of that schtick at least as society is concerned.

If some male PYLs have some type of issue with understanding female PYLs in general, do the male PYLs parlay that confusion (and perhaps "distaste") by projecting a personality type onto male pyls? That is, they may take out some of their confusion, and perhaps anger, on male pyls by sorta deciding to not even try to understand or "like" them.

I think that just might be the case, or part of it.

I'm trying to figure out how I feel about this one.

Because when a guy has to have "butch cred" I think there's a degree of homophobia in operation when a bunch of pretty much het and semi-bi people get together (I like to kiss girls, but I'd never you know, fall in LOVE with one, ew) and I think that's part of it, and that's crap.
But then the same men annoy the living shit out of me, and I don't think it's just that, I think it's an annoying needy non-personality thing happening. As discussed at length above. And I have to wonder if chilled out femmy CD guys wouldn't be greeted just as warmly as butch ones, if everyone would just take it all down a few notches.

*nod*

Ah, i wasn't clear. i am not making the argument to mainstream BDSM, or my version of my sexuality, in vanilla society. i was making the point that if the vanilla society is M/f and some of those people have problems understanding the F/m people, then, it would follow that in a F/m vanilla society some of those would have problems understand M/f *AND* in both those scenarios specifically in the BDSM community.

As far as what to "fix", that is referring back to the original post of the thread. Basically, how can the BDSM minority (F/m) be more accepted in the BDSM (M/f dominated) society?

Clone yourself, talk more, and send a copy of yourself to Massachusetts...

Okay. The latter part only benefits me. I'll admit it.

The better question to me, is not so much "how to we fix our PR problem" but "how to we make this whole gig more attractive to women who are curious about weilding power in bed, but don't necessarily think they want to lock their man in a cockcage till his dick falls off or all the other extreme fictional shit you're supposed to want, supposedly."

or "how to we tap female fantasy and appeal to womens' sexuality, not men's fantasies about it?"

The idea, and the literature need to be readily available. I know it's been said, but there is SO much M/f out there...
Just talking about it here helps. Not to sound so rainbows and lollipops, but I hope some woman who is curious, and who is maybe only lurking right now, will feel more comfortable with herself knowing that she's not alone.

What was it? The other day I was like "Oh, so it's okay to feel weird about saying 'no' to weird manipulative man? I'm not a softy?"

Just with a small comment like that I started to feel like maybe I'm not as bad as I think I am.

*THAT* is the place to start. One of the things that drives me crazy about the BDSM community is that on one hand there are those within the BDSM community who are fighting hard to gain acceptance within vanilla society, and, there are those within the BDSM community (sometimes the same people) who are fighting among other members of the BDSM community about whose kink is better or right or wrong. Hell, some people fight over a damn AMPERSAND (SM versus S&M)

How can we make gains in vanilla society if we can't even respect each other within our own community?

Exactly.

um, actually that is what i thought i was doing by creating this thread. And, it was helped by a little push from Netzach.

Ah, now see, i think that is part of the problem. i am talking about the "BDSM community". Why would i or anybody want to decide we don't want to commune with those who are different within the community? Yes, we can have different kinks and play with different people. But, we are part of the big umbrella of "BDSM". Otherwise, we start promoting "my kink is OK, but yours is not". Or, the analogy in vanilla society would be "create your own society - by seceding from the union".

I agree.

You can join our quilting circle, and we see that you're a really great quilter, but let it be known that we don't like gays. I guess you can sit here if you don't mind being called a faggot. If you can't handle it you might want to try starting your own group...for queers. (That was a general embittered feeling, and not a dig at JMohegan)

*quotes self, runs in circles, stomps maryjanes, whines, cries, pees on rug*

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

(not counting ag who had some response at least)

JESUS FREAKIN' CHRIST Netzach. The carpet? Did you have to do it on the carpet? Why not the hardwoods? And look it's been sitting there for hours.*grabs various cleaning supplies*

Makes total sense.

Like I said, I don't regret the bottoming stuff largely for that reason, it got me into the game in a way, and it helped me kind of pre-map the feelings I wanted to instill in other people before I realized it was ok, I could do that.

I've found that previous bottoming mindset becomes a very useful tool when topping.

I still waver immensely, and I have a lot of zero-confidence days with M of all the people in the world. Probably because with him I want to get and keep it right so bad. Actually I think that's pretty normal for tops though, there've been threads about that one before.

*nod*

To answer the first quote, I am in the "must top or a part of me dies too" camp. But I'm also in the "must bottom or a part of me dies" camp as well.

I've had more experience bottoming, and so I feel comfortable doing that. If I was told that I was not allowed to top anyone EVER, I'd run like hell. I need balance. I can do one or the other for an extended period of time, but I'd require certain aspects of whichever wasn't being indulged in after awhile.

I'm bi. I'm very very bi. I like girls as much as I like men. Now, I go through mood swings and phases where I may appear to like one more than the other, but I know myself well enough to know that I'll swing back eventually. It's just me. I do this.

Now maybe I could be a Domme on an emotional level (I've tried in the past without much success), but I'd eventually need to get hit. I like pain way too much to let that one go. Same goes for submitting. I'd need to be allowed to hit someone eventually. This does not mean sex or love. It means outright, plain old someone gets beaten- at least that's where my minset is right now. My mind could change again. For all I know I could be vanilla ten years from now or something.

I just appreciate some of the comments here, because sometimes topping can be so frustrating for me in that I always feel this pressure to be something that I'm not. I am not some caricature, I am not perfect. I am human, and I like that I'm human. I need my bottom to see me as human too.

It's comforting I guess.

As for why most switches are in the bottom camp? I dunno. Maybe it's that pressure that I spoke of. Pressure to be one or the other.

Topping is hard. Now, I don't mean hard as in I don't actually like it, but a lot of responsibility can come with it, and that can be fairly intimidating.

I think Bunny touched on this.

 

[Netzach]

i'm 34 and still don't think i deserve it. i demand it but i'm hung up on that piece. Since i don't think i deserve it its no fun when i get it after i demand it. Its sooooo stupid. i need them to demand it for me as if it is what they want and i get angry and frustrated if they don't read my mind and do just that. lame lame lame.

This is a painfully keen bit of insight which sums up "why I stopped IDing switch" for me, just about more perfectly than I'd ever thought out consciously.

 

[Netzach]

I never thought I'd see the day when being a lipstick lesbian caricature was cool. It sucks for the time being, but ultimately helps the community in the long run as it opens doors to more acceptance.

Gay men still get the short end of that schtick at least as society is concerned.

I think that just might be the case, or part of it.

*nod*

I'm not entirely sold on all visibility is improvement. I'm not sure that since they're trying to sell me a subaru and since lesbians are OK sex objects it's really a sign of good things to come.

The idea, and the literature need to be readily available. I know it's been said, but there is SO much M/f out there...
Just talking about it here helps. Not to sound so rainbows and lollipops, but I hope some woman who is curious, and who is maybe only lurking right now, will feel more comfortable with herself knowing that she's not alone.

What was it? The other day I was like "Oh, so it's okay to feel weird about saying 'no' to weird manipulative man? I'm not a softy?"

Just with a small comment like that I started to feel like maybe I'm not as bad as I think I am.

That is cool. I guess the problem really is as I laid it out, which is - I dunno - rarely have I felt like I have space for any doubt in this process. I drove my house mistress absolutely berzerk - her solution to everything was "make 'em" or some version of "no, it's really your show" - even in a commercial context there was no room I mean NO room for ambiguity.

I don't think that's helping. It's fun to dress up as the Steel Fist in the Velvet Glove but when did people start deciding to take that so far?

You can join our quilting circle, and we see that you're a really great quilter, but let it be known that we don't like gays. I guess you can sit here if you don't mind being called a faggot. If you can't handle it you might want to try starting your own group...for queers. (That was a general embittered feeling, and not a dig at JMohegan)

And every single thing you read will begin "I use the male pronoun for Master and the female pronoun for submissive because that's where I stand, but this applies to every other relationship under the sun." O rly?

And you KNOW this how?

And if it's true, then I dunno, SWITCH YOUR PRONOUNS AROUND FOR FUN SOMETIME. CRAZY SHIT, I KNOW.

JESUS FREAKIN' CHRIST Netzach. The carpet? Did you have to do it on the carpet? Why not the hardwoods? And look it's been sitting there for hours.*grabs various cleaning supplies*

I've found that previous bottoming mindset becomes a very useful tool when topping.


*nod*

To answer the first quote, I am in the "must top or a part of me dies too" camp. But I'm also in the "must bottom or a part of me dies" camp as well.

*snicker*

As for your orientation, cool. You're a rare bird in that regard and some people doubt your very existence. Personally, I don't, I get it. Didn't know that about your relationship to being on top. To me that's a kind of internal litmus test "if I never do it again, do I care?" As is "was a masturbating to this before I met a guy (or gal) who really really REALLY wanted me to do it to them or do it to me?"

I've had more experience bottoming, and so I feel comfortable doing that. If I was told that I was not allowed to top anyone EVER, I'd run like hell. I need balance. I can do one or the other for an extended period of time, but I'd require certain aspects of whichever wasn't being indulged in after awhile.

I'm bi. I'm very very bi. I like girls as much as I like men. Now, I go through mood swings and phases where I may appear to like one more than the other, but I know myself well enough to know that I'll swing back eventually. It's just me. I do this.

Now maybe I could be a Domme on an emotional level (I've tried in the past without much success), but I'd eventually need to get hit. I like pain way too much to let that one go. Same goes for submitting. I'd need to be allowed to hit someone eventually. This does not mean sex or love. It means outright, plain old someone gets beaten- at least that's where my minset is right now. My mind could change again. For all I know I could be vanilla ten years from now or something.

It's weird that people with the serious NEED for both find that they can't be understood very well but by others wired the same way. I've seen so much BS floated, about how because you need both it somehow dilutes your ability to be one or the other - serious switches, people who NEED both kinds of activity, I find usually show out at the extremes of BOTH poles where the singly wired often fear to tread. Maybe that's why the hatin' - it's a form of jealousy.

I just appreciate some of the comments here, because sometimes topping can be so frustrating for me in that I always feel this pressure to be something that I'm not. I am not some caricature, I am not perfect. I am human, and I like that I'm human. I need my bottom to see me as human too.

It's comforting I guess.

As for why most switches are in the bottom camp? I dunno. Maybe it's that pressure that I spoke of. Pressure to be one or the other.

Topping is hard. Now, I don't mean hard as in I don't actually like it, but a lot of responsibility can come with it, and that can be fairly intimidating.

I think Bunny touched on this.

Ok, I guess that's the answer.

And I have to say, having done both - that because Topping is hard, it leaves you open to more judgement when you admit to it and talk about it. Is this just another iteration of "women freak out when they're not perfect?"

I also think that we're getting dangerously close to the assertion that GOOD bottoming and GOOD submission is kind of passive and easy unless you're a boy in which case you have to do all this stuff. (am I the only one who senses this dichotomy in most mainstream BDSM?) This is why I bottomed butch. I find passivity this super-bore.

I also know that there are tons of women in certain D/s M/s and in F/f relationships of a certain dynamic who do NOT get to coast along on passivity or don't care to, when on the bottom. It's just not the knee jerk archetype and not nearly as popular.

 

[JMohegan]

*sigh*

I dunno. Maybe those kinds of sea changes are too much to hope for, liberator internet notwithstanding.

I do think that if I had been treated by straight mainstream SM the way I was treated by GLBT Leather I would have grown faster and less painfully. The latter has higher expecations of its noobs, I find, and a less mass roleplay feel, in spite of people thinking all those chaps and vests are really codified and weird.

The breakdown is that a lot of top women come in with a lack of confidence, which is only natural when your whole life you are getting the message "hitting people is bad DO NOT WANT" - in Leather it was like "oh, get over it, here's how you do it, go ahead you won't kill anyone, he loves it...see, you're good at this!" In straight circles it was "you are clearly a switch - see if you were a REAL DOMME you'd just know how to do this with NO hesitation, come, bottom to me!" And naively, I guessed this was true, I was a flexible switch if that many people saw it in me - who the hell was I to think I might be competent enough or deserving enough to just have what I actually fantasize about? You know, like all the men around me. I should make myself sweat harder for it because - I don't know why because. Because I was a 23 year old woman.

Got mired down in a lot of hesitation. Not that I regret most of the bottoming, just some of it. I'm frustrated with how easily I was shoved around, and I know this is part of why I'm usually one of a tenth of the population in the room at most - the fact that I'm probably more of a pushover and more patient than a lot of other women, truth be told. It got me to stick it out where I'm sure a lot of other people are like "yeah right, DO NOT WANT." And they're outta there.

The problem is the creation of a culture that loves to make sure everyone lines up on the outside and the inside - or the "we are all highly functioning leaders here" trope (subs are all balancing out being CEOS, Masters are all CEOS) what the fuck, I was an underpaid admin at this point in my life and fairly beaten up in all things non-academic. I'm not especially bossy, though I can be pretty bristly and tenacious when my sense of outrage is poked or I sense stupidity in action. In other words - I don't wear it. When I showed up I didn't wear it, anyway, couldn't wear it at all. Just boiled over with these desires I still feel like I'm pulling my panties down whenever I talk about them.

So if I don't wear it, and I have a vagina, the logic is that I'm submissive. I'm submissive waiting to be unlocked and shown the Way.

Solution: wear it all the freaking time (front, roleplay, act like a bot) or have it challenged every waking moment. Who's going to keep showing up to this soiree except for people who LOVE to act like bots? Or people who are SO mellow they just let everything roll off. Or people who have made some connections with a small circle who don't doubt it and don't care to interrogate it every moment, even if what makes me hot doesn't make them hot.

One of the most telling realizations I had was that for a while I was trying to find women to bottom to. Oy. I was hard pressed to find someone I'd let hit me with a ping pong paddle. I landed on a very volatile young femme lesbian bottom, kind of a flighty sort, but a very talented player. With more top skills than most of the Dommes I could think of put together. In one hand. One night with her taught me the way my boys feel when they are left babbling stupidity and wanting to impress while they do it.

I KNOW being female and Dominant does not mean you are a neurotic flake by default, I know it - it's just that nearly everyone else is driven screaming from the culture. (I'm a neurotic flake to a degree, but I'd let me hit me)

A lot of people of all genders & orientations are driven "screaming from the culture".

Why? Because a lot of people understand that "bossy" in public usually just means that the bossy one is a fundamentally insecure ass. And chest-puffers who "wear it" are insufferable, arrogant pricks - whose arrogance is based on nothing more substantial than the communal sense (within the microcosm of their subset of the kinky world) that their Master ID somehow entitles them to chest-puffery.

 

[Netzach]

A lot of people of all genders & orientations are driven "screaming from the culture".

Yes

BUT

more of them have to be Dom women.

Have to be because while I'm not the average girl, I'm also not THAT far out there, there'd be more of my ilk around if it weren't true.

Is that so out there to say? Why dude, why do I never run into myself, anyone who is totally "oh yeah, hell yeah" about the same things? The inside of my head is not that weird and not that unsexy.

 

[JMohegan]

You can join our quilting circle, and we see that you're a really great quilter, but let it be known that we don't like gays. I guess you can sit here if you don't mind being called a faggot. If you can't handle it you might want to try starting your own group...for queers. (That was a general embittered feeling, and not a dig at JMohegan)

I didn't take it as a dig, but I also don't think you understood what I was saying.

I'm not suggesting the creation of mini-groups based on sexual orientation. I'm suggesting that fostering friendships based on personality types and non-sexual interests can be great.

My buddies ID as Tops, bottoms, switches, and non-kinky folk. There are guys in each group.

When we're playing racquetball, no one gives a fuck about whatever anyone does in their bedroom. When we start talking kink, we've already got a basic human bond and mutual respect thing goin' on, that carries over into the conversation.

 

[Martini Man]

Intresting thoughts posted since the last time I was in the thread.

One of the things that occurs to me is that the ideal male pyls that seem to be missing from the community (confident, successful, intelligent, etc.) are out there in droves. But perhaps they aren't comfortable in joining the community.

I know that I have hesitated in going to any events/outings/etc because I don't know how I would fit in. I'm pretty much vanilla in my day to day life - I'm a businessman, and have an underlying feeling that I wouldn't fit, even though my bedroom preferences certainly would.

I wonder if that's why the paid Mistresses are popular - guys like me see that as less intimidating and have the $ to be able to pay for it. I have never done that before either, but have considered it.

 

[Netzach]

Intresting thoughts posted since the last time I was in the thread.

One of the things that occurs to me is that the ideal male pyls that seem to be missing from the community (confident, successful, intelligent, etc.) are out there in droves. But perhaps they aren't comfortable in joining the community.

I know that I have hesitated in going to any events/outings/etc because I don't know how I would fit in. I'm pretty much vanilla in my day to day life - I'm a businessman, and have an underlying feeling that I wouldn't fit, even though my bedroom preferences certainly would.

I wonder if that's why the paid Mistresses are popular - guys like me see that as less intimidating and have the $ to be able to pay for it. I have never done that before either, but have considered it.

*dirty secret I've never typed out loud before*

A large part of why I went pro for a few years was because it *allowed* me to play with the kind of men I found interesting/attractive even if it meant I wasn't entirely in charge of every aspect of the show. Different ones, without the mess of relationships.