What's wrong with F/m in BDSM and how can we fix it?

[Homburg]

Fair enough. So, the conclusion might be that F/m is simply different from the vanilla society in which we were all raised, and, people have difficulty handling that? If so, what does it take to "fix" that?

Conversely, if the vast majority of vanilla societies throughout the world where F/m, would the M/f people have problems as well? If so, then "all of this" is not specific to gender/hormones.

Mdoms and fsubs have the weight of cultural "imperative", at least insofar as the prominent myth is concerned.

That said, honestly, do you want to "fix" that particular problem? Do you actually want your sexuality mainstreamed? I sure as hell don't. While I don't get off on the taboo of it all, I do take perverse joy out of being a deviant, and I think that mainstreaming BDSM would dilute and cheapen it viciously.

 

[JMohegan]

Not to put words in your mouth or to try ask this with any sort of agenda. But, is that another way of saying that hetero male pyls are viewed by some (many?) as not real people some how? And, the same for female PYLs? If so, since previous posts above have discussed society's influence on women and girls, where does that view come from in regards to the male pyls ?

Our society celebrates the leader. The captain, manager, general, superstar. But the follower? Not so much.

Of course, without followers a leader is nothing. But we celebrate the ability of the one to inspire, compel, blah blah. Not the ability to follow directions, or the capacity for sacrifice of personal will.

All of this affects the perceptions of female s-types too, though it does seem to hit the males harder.

 

[JMohegan]

And how does she value it now? i know i no longer do.

She has a husband and two kids whom she loves and values more than anything in the world.

However, she does say she regrets not behaving with more sexual freedom, back in the day. Almost a wistful longing for broader life experiences kind of thing.

 

[Netzach]

Might be ingnorance. I certainly did not understand male pyl's until I started hanging out in a munch group that had them in it. One in particular opened my eyes big time. He's a Viet Nam era special forces guy, not a billy bad-ass, but even as an old dude you know he could probably take you apart. Not a lick of wimp in this cat, and he's competent, funny, confident as hell, functional, and just all around neat guy to hang out with (if a bit out there due to his history). Yet for his mistress he a big old teddy bear, and is happy to wear stockings, punps, etc, and do all sorts of humiliating, painful, and emasculating things. And she does so with love and respect for him. Their relationship is wonderful, and completely erased any misconceptions I might have had regarding male pyls'.

By contrast, we've another bloke that was just positively annoying the first time I met him. The epitomy of the manic, SAM, desperate-for-attention submissive, and he was hound-dogging around a party looking for a beating with a persistence. One of the local Fdom's obliged him, and took him down many pegs. This guy was just flat annoying. A few weeks later, he shows up to a munch, and was apparently not in that mood. He was calm, intelligent, measured, and showed an attentive, engaged attitude towards everyone, not just the Fdoms. Confusing. The first time I met him, he was an annoying stereotype. The second time, he was a good guy, submissive or not. Still, he showed depth, and if he were to keep the second attitude as his regular one, I would wonder why he did not have someone keeping him in his place for her enjoyment.

Either way, meeting these chaps, and others, and getting to know them as people, was what made the difference for me. Ignoring the really self-obssessed stereotype dweebs, male pyls are just people. Guys what happen to like getting bossed around by their women. I've found that I get along just fine with them, same as I do with fsubs, Fdoms, Mdoms, etc. Then again, if we are not in a relationship, your particular orientation is not all that relevant to me, aside from helping me gain perspective on your viewpoint.

Were I to guess, I might posit that some of the antipathy you are talking about comes from internet cowboys that have not spent time around their fellows from other orientations. Prejudice and bigotry is frequently linked to ignorance and a focus on group identity, not individuality.

As to Fdoms and perceptions, I would guess that some of the fault lies in the minor mainstreaming of the image of the Fdom. Ask anyone what a "dominatrix" looks like and acts like and you'll get the typical boots, corset, man-hating/emasculating etc imagery. M/f culture is no more immune to the inculcation of such imagery as anyone else, and are thus likely to have that sort of thing as a pre-concieved notion. Much like my example above, getting to know Fdoms might turn that imagery around. And add in the "SHE WANTS TO HURT MY COCK!" voice screaming in the back of many an Mdom's head, and the fragile egos of many an Mdom, and you can see why Mdoms might have worries.

I'm trying to figure out how I feel about this one.

Because when a guy has to have "butch cred" I think there's a degree of homophobia in operation when a bunch of pretty much het and semi-bi people get together (I like to kiss girls, but I'd never you know, fall in LOVE with one, ew) and I think that's part of it, and that's crap.

But then the same men annoy the living shit out of me, and I don't think it's just that, I think it's an annoying needy non-personality thing happening. As discussed at length above. And I have to wonder if chilled out femmy CD guys wouldn't be greeted just as warmly as butch ones, if everyone would just take it all down a few notches.

I really lament the fact that the "streetwear munch" at least in my region is very very "wear your corset and collar and let your freak hang out" because to me, the whole POINT of a non-play gathering is so that people who have to remain closeted can go, meet people and have no concerns about their company visually outing them. At a successful streetwear munch you would, in theory *have no idea who is what* other than by asking or maybe secret wristband colors or big straws versus little straws or something subtle and not vulgar. Instead of people virtually wearing signs that say "I want you to BEAT MY ASS."

Now that may seem hypocritical, I guess. I like to be out and overt. At you know, pride. And at, you know, conventions. And NOT when it's not welcome. And it should not be welcome at these public, tense, first-exposure-to-the-community events.

 

[subbie_333]

Mdoms and fsubs have the weight of cultural "imperative", at least insofar as the prominent myth is concerned.

That said, honestly, do you want to "fix" that particular problem? Do you actually want your sexuality mainstreamed? I sure as hell don't. While I don't get off on the taboo of it all, I do take perverse joy out of being a deviant, and I think that mainstreaming BDSM would dilute and cheapen it viciously.

Ah, i wasn't clear. i am not making the argument to mainstream BDSM, or my version of my sexuality, in vanilla society. i was making the point that if the vanilla society is M/f and some of those people have problems understanding the F/m people, then, it would follow that in a F/m vanilla society some of those would have problems understand M/f *AND* in both those scenarios specifically in the BDSM community.

As far as what to "fix", that is referring back to the original post of the thread. Basically, how can the BDSM minority (F/m) be more accepted in the BDSM (M/f dominated) society?

 

[graceanne]

Ah, i wasn't clear. i am not making the argument to mainstream BDSM, or my version of my sexuality, in vanilla society. i was making the point that if the vanilla society is M/f and some of those people have problems understanding the F/m people, then, it would follow that in a F/m vanilla society some of those would have problems understand M/f *AND* in both those scenarios specifically in the BDSM community.

As far as what to "fix", that is referring back to the original post of the thread. Basically, how can the BDSM minority (F/m) be more accepted in the BDSM (M/f dominated) society?

I'll get out my magic wand and make it all right. *shakes wand* Shoot, broken again.

Truthfully, you can discuss WHY things are the way they are until the cows come in, but no one here is going to be able to do much about it. Why? Cause you're dealing with people's conceptions, and as long as you're fighting that, you're hitting your head against a brick wall. Heck, while you're at it, why not go into a church and argue the homosexuals right to be there. *pats shoulder*

 

[Netzach]

Ah, i wasn't clear. i am not making the argument to mainstream BDSM, or my version of my sexuality, in vanilla society. i was making the point that if the vanilla society is M/f and some of those people have problems understanding the F/m people, then, it would follow that in a F/m vanilla society some of those would have problems understand M/f *AND* in both those scenarios specifically in the BDSM community.

As far as what to "fix", that is referring back to the original post of the thread. Basically, how can the BDSM minority (F/m) be more accepted in the BDSM (M/f dominated) society?

Can't even conjecture about how it would play out if the shoe were on the other foot because it's so not. The entire world would function other. I don't even know if F/m would exist if things weren't so slanted the way they are. The growing popularity of F/m activity and media in Japan is telling to me - there's nothing especially conducive to that dynamic in the culture.

 

[Netzach]

I'll get out my magic wand and make it all right. *shakes wand* Shoot, broken again.

Truthfully, you can discuss WHY things are the way they are until the cows come in, but no one here is going to be able to do much about it. Why? Cause you're dealing with people's conceptions, and as long as you're fighting that, you're hitting your head against a brick wall. Heck, while you're at it, why not go into a church and argue the homosexuals right to be there. *pats shoulder*

well, I think that it's not really a question of wand waving, but if you do understand the details and the mechancs of how something's broken you're at least going to maybe

be able to get it to go anyway
keep it from blowing up and hurting you

some churches are RUN by homosexuals now (and I mean things like Spirit of the Lakes not repressed priests.) Things can be fixed.

 

[graceanne]

well, I think that it's not really a question of wand waving, but if you do understand the details and the mechancs of how something's broken you're at least going to maybe

be able to get it to go anyway
keep it from blowing up and hurting you

some churches are RUN by homosexuals now. Things can be fixed.

Maybe I'm just being cynical. *shrugs*

 

[ataxia.girl]

She has a husband and two kids whom she loves and values more than anything in the world.

However, she does say she regrets not behaving with more sexual freedom, back in the day. Almost a wistful longing for broader life experiences kind of thing.

i'd say i have a bit more than a wistful longing. Of course i've never told my brother that.

 

[subbie_333]

Our society celebrates the leader. The captain, manager, general, superstar. But the follower? Not so much.

Of course, without followers a leader is nothing. But we celebrate the ability of the one to inspire, compel, blah blah. Not the ability to follow directions, or the capacity for sacrifice of personal will.

Ah, a good analogy. In which case, doesn't it benefit the BDSM society as whole for its leaders to inspire, compel, blah blah, those that are in the minority?

All of this affects the perceptions of female s-types too, though it does seem to hit the males harder.

And, that is part of the reason for the creation of the thread. It seems that the most prevalent answer is that it seems to be mirroring vanilla society. In vanilla society, the empowered dominant woman seems to be lauded, especially in public, while the glass ceiling exists. On the other hand, the closest thing in vanilla society to the male pyl would seem to be Mr. Mom. i think the biggest reaction to Mr. Mom is either "it's about time men found out how hard that is" or "oh what a wonderfully sensitive man he is to be with his kids and defer to his wife's ambitions". The perception is that the male pyl is viewed a bit more harshly within the BDSM community.

 

[Netzach]

The better question to me, is not so much "how to we fix our PR problem" but "how to we make this whole gig more attractive to women who are curious about weilding power in bed, but don't necessarily think they want to lock their man in a cockcage till his dick falls off or all the other extreme fictional shit you're supposed to want, supposedly."

or "how to we tap female fantasy and appeal to womens' sexuality, not men's fantasies about it?"

 

[JMohegan]

As far as what to "fix", that is referring back to the original post of the thread. Basically, how can the BDSM minority (F/m) be more accepted in the BDSM (M/f dominated) society?

My advice would be to fix your own little corner of the kinky world. Take Netzach's dating advice from earlier on the thread, and apply it to the acquisition of friends. Create your own "society," if you will.

 

[subbie_333]

well, I think that it's not really a question of wand waving, but if you do understand the details and the mechancs of how something's broken you're at least going to maybe

be able to get it to go anyway
keep it from blowing up and hurting you

*THAT* is the place to start. One of the things that drives me crazy about the BDSM community is that on one hand there are those within the BDSM community who are fighting hard to gain acceptance within vanilla society, and, there are those within the BDSM community (sometimes the same people) who are fighting among other members of the BDSM community about whose kink is better or right or wrong. Hell, some people fight over a damn AMPERSAND (SM versus S&M)

How can we make gains in vanilla society if we can't even respect each other within our own community?

 

[Netzach]

Mr. Mom?

MR MOM?

Uh no.

I think of things like Saint Sebastian, the Terminator, Ron Jeremy (the ultimate male object in his abject way) anyone in the Military or LE who takes orders, and Jeeves.

Not Mr. Mom.

Ew. What's that, if a guy does the necessary mundane crap it takes to sustain his own child it's SUBMISSION?

 

[subbie_333]

My advice would be to fix your own little corner of the kinky world.

um, actually that is what i thought i was doing by creating this thread. And, it was helped by a little push from Netzach.

Take Netzach's dating advice from earlier on the thread, and apply it to the acquisition of friends. Create your own "society," if you will.

Ah, now see, i think that is part of the problem. i am talking about the "BDSM community". Why would i or anybody want to decide we don't want to commune with those who are different within the community? Yes, we can have different kinks and play with different people. But, we are part of the big umbrella of "BDSM". Otherwise, we start promoting "my kink is OK, but yours is not". Or, the analogy in vanilla society would be "create your own society - by seceding from the union".

 

[ataxia.girl]

The better question to me, is not so much "how to we fix our PR problem" but "how to we make this whole gig more attractive to women who are curious about weilding power in bed, but don't necessarily think they want to lock their man in a cockcage till his dick falls off or all the other extreme fictional shit you're supposed to want, supposedly."

or "how to we tap female fantasy and appeal to womens' sexuality, not men's fantasies about it?"

my switchiest fantasies are very Lolita leading Humbert around by his dick. Which she did and it was quite hot.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I think of things like Saint Sebastian, the Terminator, Ron Jeremy (the ultimate male object in his abject way) anyone in the Military or LE who takes orders, and Jeeves.

i was actually going to say you've inspired me to develop some bodyguard type fantasy of my own where I am the boss. i think that could be quite hot.

 

[Netzach]

i was actually going to say you've inspired me to develop some bodyguard type fantasy of my own where I am the boss. i think that could be quite hot.

DoD man. Dicking on Demand.

 

[Netzach]

um, actually that is what i thought i was doing by creating this thread. And, it was helped by a little push from Netzach.



Ah, now see, i think that is part of the problem. i am talking about the "BDSM community". Why would i or anybody want to decide we don't want to commune with those who are different within the community? Yes, we can have different kinks and play with different people. But, we are part of the big umbrella of "BDSM". Otherwise, we start promoting "my kink is OK, but yours is not". Or, the analogy in vanilla society would be "create your own society - by seceding from the union".

I don't think JM means "people with your kink" but "people who grok and value you"

I think that's cool, I definitely feel appreciated by people in my orbit, but I don't always feel *gotten*

That's fine too, but I still find myself wondering - why do so few people with my kink show up? Is it really that incredibly fringe to be FDom?

 

[subbie_333]

<snip>

On the other hand, the closest thing in vanilla society to the male pyl would seem to be Mr. Mom.

<snip>

Mr. Mom?

MR MOM?

Uh no.

I think of things like Saint Sebastian, the Terminator, Ron Jeremy (the ultimate male object in his abject way) anyone in the Military or LE who takes orders, and Jeeves.

Not Mr. Mom.

um, yeah! But, i said "in vanilla society" and You are not vanilla, so, yeah You would view it differently. i don't think vanilla society views those men as the male pyls of vanilla society.

 

[subbie_333]

I don't think JM means "people with your kink" but "people who grok and value you"

OK, but, my reply would still apply there. i don't want to put words in his mouth, but, that "create your own society" statement has been made by those who don't understand others, who don't want to understand others, and, who wants those others to do away. Maybe what i am getting at is desiring more acceptance of F/m, as opposed to grudging tolerance.

 

[ataxia.girl]

DoD man. Dicking on Demand.

i could get into that. i do like dick

 

[Netzach]

um, yeah! But, i said "in vanilla society" and You are not vanilla, so, yeah You would view it differently. i don't think vanilla society views those men as the male pyls of vanilla society.

Maybe not, but they keep churning out those narratives and I've never seen one in kink media with a really masculine/heroic msub outside of gay porn.

 

[subbie_333]

Maybe not, but they keep churning out those narratives and I've never seen one in kink media with a really masculine/heroic msub outside of gay porn.

Good point. But, it isn't hard to imagine a trashy novel in which the relationship is F/m, the F is kidnapped, and, the m rescues Her.