When is it BSDM, and when is it abuse?

[Johnny Mayberry]

You guys rock!

I am hear to hug and high five everyone. I have been on other message boards where this question, this discussion, in this context would have reverted to out and out name calling and demeaning behavior.

Everyone posting here is doing a great job, including Lance. No one has to agree with anyone, but disagreeing with tact, class and style is a little seen phenomena on line.

Hugs to all.

You rock hard, babe! Class must be your middle name.

 

[exiledmaster]

I'm not sure if I understand much of what Lance is saying, just because it doesn't equate to my life.
Example one; I learned to play cello when I was a kid. It hurt like hell; callouses on my fingers, bruises on my thighs where the cello rested, blisters on my hands from the bow. Was that wrong, because it hurt?
Example two; I was a reasonable quality semi pro sportsman and boxer. I hurt opponents and they hurt me. It was fun. Some of the audience who came to watch me fight were undoubtedly therte only for the vicarious pleasure of watching someone get hurt. Is that wrong? Does the fact that their pleasure was sexual in some cases make me a prostitute?
Example three; with a previous partner I made a gorgeous baby girl, who was ten and a half pound when she was born. Her mother screamed with pain during the childbirth, and needed stitches afterwards, but as an event it gave us overwhelming pleasure. Was that wrong?
The more I think out loud Lance the more I think that you're just a little tedious, dressing up a few shabby outmoded cultural norms as evidence for your own prejudices. But most of all, why bother? we're happy here; it's you who has sought us out....

 

[psiberzerker]

Unfortunately, this is all very personal, and everyone has their own definitions. The answer to the origonal question is, it depends. Where do I draw the line? I don't, I leave that up to the bottom.
In the realm of sadomasochism, and domination people often ask to be "abused", even "raped". This is patentedly impossible because these are issues of concent. When it actually becomes abuse, is up to the victim. Keeping back from that line is what it means to be dominant.
If you're into domination to feel like more of a man, you should try being whipped for a while. You're there to satisfy the submissives desire to be protected, and controlled, not to show them you're god, and they're shit. When it becomes about you, that's the road to abuse.
For you subs, don't compete with the dom/me. S/he is doing a lot for you, don't try to wear them out with how much you can take, and definitely, don't misbehave to get yourself punnished. This is topping from the bottom, and people get KILLED doing that. Another thing is do not concent to being bound by anyone you don't trust completely. There are some sick fucks out there, and unfortunately, they look just like the rest of us. For a measure of safety, try telling somewone where you'll be. You don't have to be graffic, just let them know as a safety net.
In conclusion, err on the side of caution. It's up to the sub to tell the Dom/me when s/he's becomming abusive. It's up to the Dom/me to listen, and STOP! That's why god invented safe words.

 

[Pixie Mischief]

Re: Re: reposting...

Pixie, where do you draw the line? Is this abuse, or acceptable BDSM behavior?



That's just one example. Just a few minutes worth of searching will lead one to many threads here which endorse what is clearly abuse. Do you really think that healthy, enjoyable sex requires a first aid kit?

Well I dont really agree but thats my opinion. I want no permanate scars from sexual encourters.

 

[Pixie Mischief]

Context, bub. Punching someone in the face is assault...unless you are in a boxing ring. Screaming insults at someone is harassment...unless you are a recruit in boot camp. Grabbing a paddle and spanking someone is abuse...unless they enjoy it, and ask for more.

All about context.

EXCATLY!

 

[Pixie Mischief]

*sighs*

I guess acccording to lance I shouldnt have sex because I ended up pulling a back muscle amongs other things. Not my fault if I'm disabled. LMAO MY back is fucked and fucks up easy.
Guess sex is abusive for me since it often hurts (not to mention that I'm only 4 foot and things hae a hard time fitting OUCH.. one word... KY)



NO SEX *Cries*

 

[MissTaken]

Unfortunately, this is all very personal, and everyone has their own definitions. The answer to the origonal question is, it depends. Where do I draw the line? I don't, I leave that up to the bottom.
.

This was a great post in it's entirety.

In terms of the question at hand, Psiberzerker has led to my own response.

A victim may have no real control over the pain and humiliation they are subjected to. They may feel that to try to stop the abuse is futile.

A submissive has the ability to stop the activity at any point at which she feels a line has been crossed or the activity is not pleasing to him or her.

There is a huge difference between the example given concerning the depressed person who wants suicide and a submissive. A depressed person desiring suicide is not sane when making this decision, nor are they feeling good about themselves. (Back to SSC, for purposes of this discussion.) Also, a submissive needs to feel self confident, self aware and strong in order to engage in BDSM. How else can she maintain the presence of mind and ability to use that safe word or not engage with a Domly sort who is actually a perpetrator of abuse?

As much a paradox as it seems to the non BDSM crowd, submissives are often assertive, self confident men and women who recognize their needs and know how to have them met, safely.

Submissive does not equate to victim or even "doormat."

I would strongly recommend to any submissive, that if you do not feel confident in yourself, you are not ready to engage in this lifestyle. Don't do it. Get your own house in order before trying to meet the needs of another.

 

[psiberzerker]

Sorry about that,

I've been doing this a while, and I've built up quite a tolerance.
OTOH, yes, I think health sexual play should have some medical supplies handy. KY was developed for hospitals by a gynecologist, and I've seen way more uses for a speculum than I really had to. You use condoms, right? Please say you do, because that's a medical supply. What the hell is wrong with insisting on safe sex?
Look kids, this isn't kick ball, it's closer to hockey. I don't play the latter without about thirty pounds of pads, and the handy dandy first aid kit you people don't seem to need. You don't want to pack some SHTF supplies, you might want to play safer.
My rule is, if it involves paraphenalia, it requires some medical supplies. Go ahead and laugh, but a dildo can hurt, maim, and kill in the wrong hands. Throw in whips, cuffs, and a head trainer, and I respectfuly request some actual training. EMT should cover anything up to, but not including Asphyx, Hooding, Electricks, and other advanced techniques. You might want a specialist if you want to go further.
And you, Lance. I respectfully suggest you grow up, or shut up. You don't like it, don't do it. Insulting people who variably like hurting people, or enjoy pain isn't a real great idea.

 

[Pixie Mischief]

KY

KY rocks in one month we used almost 2 tubes of it LMAO

expensive shit

 

[RisiaSkye]

Am I the only one who find the name and signature line of lancemanyon more than a little telling?

Is this bait I smell? I think so.

Take a pill, lance-the-manyon. The psychoanalysis approach to marginalizing BDSM went out in the early 90's. Unless you've managed to turn the tide, your argument's at least a decade too late to be relevant in society, and a year late here. But thanks for playing.

Best to all,
RS
Erstwhile Dogcather

 

[Pixie Mischief]

OMg yeah the sig line LMAO


pain has nothing to do with love with me LMAO seriously not.
a little of it sexualy is a turn on but nothing to do with love.. for me anyway

 

[MissTaken]

Am I the only one who find the name and signature line of lancemanyon more than a little telling?

Is this bait I smell? I think so.

Take a pill, lance-the-manyon. The psychoanalysis approach to marginalizing BDSM went out in the early 90's. Unless you've managed to turn the tide, your argument's at least a decade too late to be relevant in society, and a year late here. But thanks for playing.

Best to all,
RS
Erstwhile Dogcather

Hey, RS!

Umm yep, the name seems a bit telling, but here are my suspicions. Lance is a troll of sorts, using this nickname to make us THINK he is our Lance....a set up, if you will?

There is a poster, lovyamon, on the GB, and the play on that name combined with the Lance reference makes me think someone wants to discredit, ummm LanceC.

But that is just my suspicion and until there is some indication for or against the theory, I will entertain him as long as he tries to veil his insults with some politesse.

I am so glad to see you post, RS!

 

[Pixie Mischief]

I know I noticed that myself both names how they combined simularly. made me think.


*shrugs* or perhapes its really his name

 

[HzDomme]

As much a paradox as it seems to the non BDSM crowd, submissives are often assertive, self confident men and women who recognize their needs and know how to have them met, safely.

I strongly agree with the above.

Lance, I "hurt" my sub because he enjoys strong sensations not because I like to inflict pain. Hurting him is the last thing I'd ever want to do.

I also agree that this Lance is trying to confuse the issue with his moniker. LanceC is much more educated, he puts out a good argument even though I disagree with most of what he says.

 

[Pure]

Miss T,

It occurs to me that the mostly calm responses to Lancemanyon's provocation may represent the end of the affair.

Trolls, I think, want quick results, and are pretty lazy. If an inflammatory remark doesn't work, they often don't bother with a case.

It appears that LM found my simple request for a single piece of research too daunting.

 

[MissTaken]

Miss T,

It occurs to me that the mostly calm responses to Lancemanyon's provocation may represent the end of the affair.

Trolls, I think, want quick results, and are pretty lazy. If an inflammatory remark doesn't work, they often don't bother with a case.

It appears that LM found my simple request for a single piece of research too daunting.

Perhaps?

Perhaps not?

It will all present itself in good time.

I think trolls are most effective when they are posting with people who are uncertain about themselves and their choices or with people who enjoy getting involved in all out flame wars. Is it out of line for me to say that this bunch of perverts makes me very proud to be part of this community?

Anyone may ask a question.
Lancemanyon is not the first to approach this forum in this manner, nor will he be the last.

Regardless, his posts have been provocative in the sense that they have led to some great discussion and been thought "provoking." Having to answer such queries gives one cause to think and find a chord within themselves that is harmonious.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

You guys killed a troll with intellect? SWEET!


I was rather impressed with the thread, it was informative, and helped me to clarify some thngs in my head...thanks, Lance.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Am I the only one who find the name and signature line of lancemanyon more than a little telling?

Is this bait I smell? I think so.

Take a pill, lance-the-manyon. The psychoanalysis approach to marginalizing BDSM went out in the early 90's. Unless you've managed to turn the tide, your argument's at least a decade too late to be relevant in society, and a year late here. But thanks for playing.

Best to all,
RS
Erstwhile Dogcather

I already know it is not the Lance I know and love, so that is not the issue.

However what I found amusing was that lancemanyon was not so so lily white as to not find posting his dick all over the GB as being so bad. In other words, his rant was just another version of my kink is holier that your kink.

I dislike hypocrites.

 

[Ebonyfire]

You guys killed a troll with intellect? SWEET!


I was rather impressed with the thread, it was informative, and helped me to clarify some thngs in my head...thanks, Lance.

So are you ready to be taken advantage of you poor sick victim?

My office is open.

 

[Quint]

On "where did it come from" and why D/s is just good lovin

There have been all sorts of threads on "When did you become interested in BDSM?", many experiences dating back to childhood memories of bondage games and whipping Barbies. A quick search will bring those up. I bring this up because Lance fairly directly stated that he believes the desire for BDSM comes from a traumatic event, often in early childhood, and I want him to know that our stories of where that desire came from are available.

As for me, I had a happy childhood with a loving family, little death, no trauma. The issues I carry from that are non-sexual ones, which I am constantly identifying and dealing with on my own. No abuse stems from my youth.

I can and do psychoanalyze my tendency towards submission; a great deal is my need to be a conduit in other people's happiness. I see it. It's me. And whatever else it is, it is not abuse. I say that with a clear conscience because I constantly question why I am doing what I'm doing, and as long as I am honest with myself about it--"I'm doing this because it makes him happy and I want to be the cause of that happiness because then I will feel like I am doing a good thing and that feeling of productivity will make me happy, as will the look on my lover's face when he is happy"--then I am not being a victim.

I want to copy and paste this part once more: "I'm doing this because it makes him happy and I want to be the cause of that happiness because then I will feel like I am doing a good thing and that feeling of productivity will make me happy, as will the look on my lover's face when he is happy." Look at it again. Any good lover, vanilla, homosexual, Dominant, married, et cetera, would say the exact same thing! In a relationship, there is a sharing and understanding of happiness and how important it is to be a part of it. I've been nilla. I still wanted to make my lover happy, and he did the same to me. It's what makes a relationship work. So as submissive as that quoted passage sounds, it is nothing new. I'd be more afraid if it didn't sound familiar to anyone reading it.

Other factors of the original question have already been addressed and I too want to see what replies we get before continuing, but I wanted to share my side. Off to get smoochies now.

 

[lancemanyon]

It has been a while since I have been able to respond to this thread. After having worked 10 hours yesterday, and 13 today, mixed in with us entering War.....my spare time was spent elsewhere. By the way, Let's all say a prayer (or whatever you do to invoke good spirits) for our troops.

As an ex-Marine I am saddedned that we have come to this yet again in my lifetime. And at the same time, I am ready to see us go kick some ass. I can't pick a side on this war because I am on both sides; Hawk and Dove.

In regards to previous posts, I am not trying to impersonate someone else. I am not some troll trying to stir up trouble. I'm not going to tell you my real name or where I live for obvious reasons. But, I'm not pulling your chain either.

NOTE TO THE ADMIN

I am very familiar with the V-bulletin software. All you have to do is go to the control panel and track the two users in question. You will soon find we are not the same. So don't blow smoke up my ass.

Yeah, I posted pictures here (and elsewhere) of my dick, my ass, you name it. To me that in no way equates with the concept of hurting others in the name of pleasure. It seems to me that some of you are grasping at straws. The simplest way to derail a debate is to shift focus of the topic at hand.........and that is what many are doing here.

As for my qualifications: I have a master's degree in counseling psychology. I have chosen to not make that my life's work. But, I do volunteer my services to a 24-hour telephone hot-line for those in trouble. "Crisis Connection" I have had many people call me who are about to check themselves out. If you want to know what a real buzz is like try putting that pressure on yourself. I have not always been up to the task.

I am myself a survivor of past abuse.

I have not had much time in the past 48 hours to do current research on the topic of bdsm. So far my comments have been based on my past studies and personal experiences. But I'll be the first to admit I may not be up on the new "line of thinking". I will say this....when I first do a search for "BDSM" the sites which first come up tend to be personal pages, independent sites. And almost without exception they tend to display warnings about those who would abuse in the name of bdsm. So it seems my warnings are not that far from the mark.

It's been hard to sort through the personal websites, and to find the professional links to research. I will continue to do that, and fulfill my promises to this debate. But right now I feel the need to get shitfaced and spend the night musing over why we as humans are here.

Let's put our differences aside and hope for a rapid end to this war, and peace for all.

God bless all.

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

What's next Lance dear? You gonna save our souls too? Preach it brutha...

Your life must be very, very empty, if you have nothing better to do than come HERE and try to convert the faithful to another brand of soap, so to speak.

Have a nice day, darlin', I'm not buying.

~Anelize

 

[RisiaSkye]

To clarify: you'll notice that I never even suggested
lancemanyon's ramble was the product of Lancecastor. I think Lance the first is an annoying little egotist, but not an idiot. Why use such a similar name? Wouldn't happen.

And this whole argument is just so ten years ago it hurts. Nice to see it end.

lancemanyon--you're far from the only "survivor" of abuse here. But you are perhaps the most reactionary and repressively-inclined one. Your history of abuse has nada to do with BDSM; that's just a fact, and not even a tough one to spot.

Toodles, all.
May we all, in a global sense, learn a little respect for our differences--and for the unifying experiences of love & desire.

,
RS

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Let's do admit that there are abusers who hide behind the guise of BDSM, and there are some sad, sick individuals who are seeking abuse for the sake of abuse. Those people are not true representatives of what the reast of us are about.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

So are you ready to be taken advantage of you poor sick victim?

My office is open.

If I was interested...I would certainly turn to you first!