When is it BSDM, and when is it abuse?

[MissTaken]

So what? They answered the question.

Darlin, this isn't BDSM 101 in Freshman year....

Prof Pure!

(Don't get too picky, poppet.)





(WE can argue the "mild abuse" thing and "consensual" domestic violence thing on another thread, if you wish.)

Hecate says,

SSC indicates non-abuse or (if ssc, then no abuse)

FungiUg says,

Consensual indicates non-abuse (if c, then no abuse)

Neither person defines 'abuse'.

Neither formula really works, since mild spouse abuse--assuming it exists--between two sane people may be consensual (in that if you ask the receiver, she essentially agrees the harsh action was appropriate).

In case anyone believes female 'circumcision' is abuse, as I tend to, that too, if done by a London doctor--as Somalis in London do-- is safe, sane, and consensual (or as much as you can, given that it's often a minor; iow she says she wants it.).

The positions of these two, and several others, make sense only if they basically deny there is any abuse of which one is unaware.

 

[Pixie Mischief]

I find it a little funny that I'm 20. only had one bf... had sex for 27 days... and I know more then lance does.

I find this funny.

 

[Pixie Mischief]

I can see where lance is comming from to. I think mostly perhapes hes talking about where to draw the line.
I will say thought also what a person may consider abusive another person may not

To me.. neglecting my disability.. saying its for attention and not believing me. To me thats a form of abuse but others may think differently. everyone has a different opinion on what abuse is.
Also. there is such a thing as "loving your abuser" people come to love the person who is abusing them.

But there is a difference between that and BDSM.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Consent issues in domestic violence?

Uh-oh, the convo's now walked right into the middle of my dissertation. But, because I'm a humanist, I'm making my good deed for the day an effort to bite my tongue, lest I should launch into one of my notorious rambles.

Besides, nobody but Pure would read all that anyway.

RS

 

[MissTaken]

Consent issues in domestic violence?

Uh-oh, the convo's now walked right into the middle of my dissertation. But, because I'm a humanist, I'm making my good deed for the day an effort to bite my tongue, lest I should launch into one of my notorious rambles.

Besides, nobody but Pure would read all that anyway.

RS

*giggles*

My poor tongue looks like a mold for a dental plate.

 

[Pure]

Originally posted by Pure

Neither formula really works, since mild spouse abuse--assuming it exists--between two sane people may be consensual (in that if you ask the receiver, she essentially agrees the harsh action was appropriate).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


FungiUg
I'm not sure what your point is here. But from what I understand of what you are saying, a woman might agree that she was "out of line", but not agree that a "black eye" is the appropriate consequence. So it's still non-consensual.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Let me try to re-state my pov. I'm saying
1) the test of consensuality--"Did she consent" -- is not adequate (to decide if something's abuse). **

2) Mild domestic abuse passes that test. She agrees a)she's 'out of line' AND b) that the (for example) bruise on the face is appropriate.

3)Precisely because she won't complain about the bruise, the prosecution of her abuser disregards his testimony or need not ask for it.

4)It's true that a year up the road and out of the situation, after counselling etc. she may look back and agree it WAS abuse, but she doesn't necessarily say that at the time.

Sorry if this bothers you, Miss T, RS, but much as we like 'SSC' as a slogan-- and it's desirable stuff-- and tatoo it on our foreheads, and burn incense to it, it just doesn't do the job, here. In my aberrant, not so humble, and weird opinion.

**With all due respect Miss T, and cowering at your feet, this inadequacy means that the question was not answered, in my presumptuous and impossibly arrogant opinion.



'poppet'

 

[MissTaken]

Women will not complain about the "minor" infractions involved in domestic abuse, but silence does not indicate consent. It indicates fear, acquiesance out of futility and hopelessness.

Her psyche is not healthy.
After counseling, you say? Well, in that statement you are acquiescing that that in terms of SSC, "Sane" isn't part of the scenario.

A victim is controlled. A victim of domestic violence is often isolated from those who might help her, from community oversight (i.e. forced to live away from town and not be permitted to go to town with the offender), is controlled by his manipulation. She is not aware or in denial when getting involved with an offender. He charms her and never says, "BTW, if you fuck up, I will hit you." A gal who is sporting a black eye after having burned dinner is likely to say, "I deserved it because I screwed up and he promises it won't happen again." They always hang on to the hope that that blow was the last blow. She acquiesces repeatedly to the abuse as she hopes it will change, almost magically. There is no pleasure to be found in domestic violence. her self esteem and self worth is completely wrapped up in her relationship with the offender. And yes, these elements exist in the "mild" cases of domestic violence.

A submissive has control, in a healthy D/s relationship. She has a safe word. She has a choice whether or not to get involved with the Dominant to begin with. He is a Dominant from day one. Her consenting to violent play happens with information and knowledge of his expectations. She is able to talk about the act, or blow in the aftermath. She gains pleasure from the act. Her self esteem comes from within and while it may be enhanced by her Dominant, it is not solely reliant upon her Dominant.

There lies the difference between Domestic Abuse and S and M play.

I still contend that submission is consensual and abuse is not.

In your own scenario, Pure, you suggest that "after counseling" the victim will recognize the abuse. Would not a need for counseling indicate a certain degree of poor mental health, hence, her sanity is in question? Her safety certainly is in question. I will stand by SSC, on this one.

 

[lektra]

Women will not complain about the "minor" infractions involved in domestic abuse, but silence does not indicate consent. It indicates fear, acquiesance out of futility and hopelessness.

I still contend that submission is consensual and abuse is not.

I maintain the same thing. I have never worked with a woman who consented to any kind of domestic abuse. She may tolerate it as the lesser of a whole bunch of evils, have normalized it in order to function, or he may have convinced her she deserved it, but that's not consent.

I personally don't think there are any "minor infractions" of domestic abuse. I have heard batterers excuse their behaviour, as "at least it's not as bad as _______."

Domestic abuse is not about any kind of sharing of power, or any kind of freely given consent.

Okay I'll get off my soapbox now. To echo RisiaSkye, we wandered into my thesis topic, and, unlike Risia, I couldn't bite my tongue.

 

[Pure]

MissT --'lollipop' to those of us who love her-- said,
Would not a need for counseling indicate a certain degree of poor mental health, hence, her sanity is in question?

For those who need counselling, their 'sanity is in question.'

For abused women, according to you, afraid to testify, "their sanity is in question."

Horsefeathers.

'poppet'

 

[Pure]

Lektra opined,
/I personally don't think there are any "minor infractions" of domestic abuse./

An unkind word, a bruise, a broken arm, a broken head, death...

all pretty much the same... all "major infractions".

If you were the judge, all of the above would merit the same sentence, presumably life.

Yours will be an controversial thesis.

J.

 

[lark sparrow]

Originally posted by Pure
**With all due respect Miss T, and cowering at your feet, this inadequacy means that the question was not answered, in my presumptuous and impossibly arrogant opinion.



'poppet'

You're such a slut for an argument, punkin. I turn my back and suddenly you're someone else's poppet!

 

[Pure]

You're such a slut for an argument, punkin. I turn my back and suddenly you're someone else's poppet!

(turns bright red, hastily removes finger fucking own cortex)

umm...

Honey muffin, they ain't in your league--- trust me it was just utterly meaningless cort-sex.




love,


punkin

 

[DVS]

Well, it's finally happened. I didn't think it was going too far, but I got caught up in the fun of it, and didn't realize what was happening.

I never thought it would happen to me. I always took precautions, although we did play rough. I guess it just went too far.

I took all of the steps to keep it from happening, but it just happened. I guess I was wrong when I said it couldn't happen to me. You can go too far, without knowing it.

There I was, in my Dom mode, and she was all naked and tied up. Her ass getting red with each well placed swat, and her yelps after each. It was priceless. I hungered for the thrills.

Her body was beautiful with its red welts. She was squirming and twisting in her bonds the whole time. I couldn't resist taking it to the next level.

I got out my flogger, and proceeded to lash her sweating body. Then came my crop, my whip, my violet wand, they all took their turn. I loved the extreme feeling of power. She whimpered and cried, but I just drank up her pain, and continued her torment.

Over and over I used her naked body. I tortured and tormented as she struggled against it. My control over her was intoxicating. I couldn't get enough. I was relishing her pain.

Then, I had to give it to her, my hard pulsing cock. She was ready, and I was ready. I would drive it hard into her, and fuck the life out of her.

But, something went wrong. It didn't work quite as I planned. I couldn't believe it. It's true. You can lose control. Things can get out of hand. Bad things can happen.

Her scream sent chills through my body. Then, there was silence. Body fluids puddling on the floor beneath her. Her eyes looking at me in a cold dark stare. I was overwhelmed. I was scared to death.

How could it have happen? What had gone wrong? I had everything under control, like many times before. What would they call it? Man slaughter, or maybe murder? Only time would tell. Just about as much time as it would take me to untie her...then duck.

Premature ejaculation. Man, was she pissed!

 

[cremebrulee]

Oxford Definition of Abuse

OK, here's a definition to make this even more confusing/argument worthy. Looks to be that BDSM is abuse with consent by this one.
Yeah, I know ~ you're welcome for my stirring things up.
LOL
~Creme


~~~ABUSE~~~



t verb [with OBJ.] 1 use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse: the judge abused his power by imposing the fines.

n make excessive and habitual use of (alcohol or drugs, especially illegal ones).
2 treat (a person or an animal) with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly: riders who abuse their horses should be prosecuted.

n assault (someone, especially a woman or child) sexually: he was a depraved man who had abused his two young daughters | [as ADJ.] (abused) abused children.
n use or treat in such a way as to cause damage or harm: he had been abusing his body for years.

3 speak in an insulting and offensive way to or about (someone): the referee was abused by players from both teams.

t noun [MASS NOUN] 1 the improper use of something: alcohol abuse | [COUNT NOUN] an abuse of public funds.


n unjust or corrupt practice: protection against fraud and abuse | [COUNT NOUN] human rights abuses.

2 cruel and violent treatment of a person or animal: a black eye and other signs of physical abuse.

n violent treatment involving sexual assault, especially on a regular basis: young people who have suffered sexual abuse.
3 insulting and offensive language: waving his fists and hurling abuse at the driver.

—ORIGIN late Middle English: via Old French from Latin abus- 'misused', from the verb abuti, from ab- 'away' (i.e. 'wrongly') + uti 'to use'.
~~~ABUSE~~~

 

[lark sparrow]

LOL

You know I can't resist the way you shake your groove thing, punkin.

Honey muffin

 

[Pure]

That's a thoughtful posting DVS. You've brought out some good research. It's an interesting equation and approach: legal sadistic acts = consensual abuse.

Since 'abuse', tends not to be among crimes for adults, there's no intrinsic problem, as for instance if one were to try to formulate a concept of 'consensual assault.'

 

[lark sparrow]

When good f*cks, go bad...

Well, it's finally happened. I didn't think it was going too far, but I got caught up in the fun of it, and didn't realize what was happening.

I never thought it would happen to me. I always took precautions, although we did play rough. I guess it just went too far.

I took all of the steps to keep it from happening, but it just happened. I guess I was wrong when I said it couldn't happen to me. You can go too far, without knowing it.

But, something went wrong. It didn't work quite as I planned. I couldn't believe it. It's true. You can lose control. Things can get out of hand. Bad things can happen.

Her scream sent chills through my body. Then, there was silence. Body fluids puddling on the floor beneath her. Her eyes looking at me in a cold dark stare. I was overwhelmed. I was scared to death.

How could it have happen? What had gone wrong? I had everything under control, like many times before. What would they call it? Man slaughter, or maybe murder? Only time would tell. Just about as much time as it would take me to untie her...then duck.

Premature ejaculation. Man, was she pissed!

LMBO!

 

[FungiUg]

1) the test of consensuality--"Did she consent" -- is not adequate (to decide if something's abuse).

Why not? You have stated this, but supplied not even anectodal evidence...

2) Mild domestic abuse passes that test. She agrees a)she's 'out of line' AND b) that the (for example) bruise on the face is appropriate.

She what? I'm sorry, but I have spoken to women who have been abused (this sort of abuse is very common in Australia), and they did not agree that being abused was an "appropriate" response, even when they were "out of line".

3)Precisely because she won't complain about the bruise, the prosecution of her abuser disregards his testimony or need not ask for it.

There's a difference between morality and legality. Legal systems are far from perfect. That's not news, nor is it a supporting argument. If we define our morality by what is legal... well, I think that would make us very sad.

4)It's true that a year up the road and out of the situation, after counselling etc. she may look back and agree it WAS abuse, but she doesn't necessarily say that at the time.

Now that can be true. I haven't met a case like that, but I have heard of them. Also, the "cycle of abuse" where a woman continually picks abusive partners, and where a man continues to abuse his partners because of his own past abuse.

But let's apply the test of consensuality.

Q. "Did he hit you?"
A. "Yes"
Q. "Did he ask your permission to hit you?"
A. "No"
Q. "Did you have a prior agreement that he could hit you?"
A. "No."

Even if she answers "but I deserved it!", it's still non-consensual. Just out of interest, this makes it obvious that many governments abuse their citizens... (side-track)

Okay, there are grey areas where the failure of consensuality won't apply, but can be considered abuse. I never claimed that there wouldn't be, I wasn't trying to come up with a legal definition. I was trying to come up with a definition that works for me -- outside of that, I will use my brain.

In most cases, non-consensuality clearly defines abuse.

 

[MissTaken]

MissT --'lollipop' to those of us who love her-- said,
Would not a need for counseling indicate a certain degree of poor mental health, hence, her sanity is in question?

For those who need counselling, their 'sanity is in question.'

For abused women, according to you, afraid to testify, "their sanity is in question."

Horsefeathers.

'poppet'

Point 1:

I haven't said a word about testimony.`

Point 2:

You are making your assessments and arguements based only on the physical, concrete evidence of domestic violence. My post above was intended, in part, to demonstrate that where there is a black eye, there is far more damaging emotional and psychological damage occuring.

Domestic violence is a pattern, a cycle of manipulation and slowly tears down the victim's self worth and self esteem to the degree to which she even feels "crazy." She is , in many respects, defenseless against him and making her solely reliant on the offender so that her very life depends on him and then mistreats her emotionally and physically.

If this happens in a D/s relationship, we call the submissive a "broken sub." It happens. I have never said it doesn't, but domestic violence in any relationship is a grave misuse of power and control. Consequences are long term and very damaging.

*giggles* at poppet.

You knew you could draw me back in, didn't you?

BTW, I am not a victim of domestic violence or any form of abuse, should you or anyone wonder why I am posting as I am. I have, however, worked with hundreds of families in which domestic violence has been a key issue. I am not a man hater. I believe in treatment, not incarceration. I do not, however, believe that domestic violence is ever consensual as the victim doesn't have the mental fortitude to consent to violence, whether abusive or even D/s.

 

[MissTaken]

Lektra opined,
/I personally don't think there are any "minor infractions" of domestic abuse./

An unkind word, a bruise, a broken arm, a broken head, death...

all pretty much the same... all "major infractions".

If you were the judge, all of the above would merit the same sentence, presumably life.

Yours will be an controversial thesis.

J.

Umm darlin?
Who is talking about sentences here?
You are putting words into other's mouths again.

Being a little bit abused is like having a little bit of cancer. There may be more and the cancer is always going to be something needing attention and treatment. The cancer can grow or , soemtimes, be removed, but not without taking a piece of your physical being along with it.

Geesh Lord!

How I do babble!

 

[lektra]

Lektra opined,
/I personally don't think there are any "minor infractions" of domestic abuse./

An unkind word, a bruise, a broken arm, a broken head, death...

all pretty much the same... all "major infractions".

If you were the judge, all of the above would merit the same sentence, presumably life.

Yours will be an controversial thesis.

J.

I've watched abusers walk with little/no penalty for a bruise, a broken arm, a broken head. You didn't specify who they were minor infractions to, and if we consider what the justice system thinks in terms of sentencing, then geting caught for burglary carries a heavier sentence than assault in most cases. Im sure mine will be a controversial thesis .

I just don't think that you can quantify how different kinds of abuse effect different people. I've heard from many women that emotional abuse, is to them, often more painful than physical abuse.

 

[DVS]

Being a little bit abused is like having a little bit of cancer. There may be more and the cancer is always going to be something needing attention and treatment. The cancer can grow or , soemtimes, be removed, but not without taking a piece of your physical being along with it.

Geesh Lord!

How I do babble!

Amazing! A good spanking (with a good gag for the babbling) is very similar. A little spanking is only a taste, you know. There is usually more to come, later. Someone who is spanked is ALWAYS needing more attention. Funny, how that works.

And, with a spanking, something of mine usually grows. And, as a matter of fact, it is best "removed" by putting it IN your physical being. Oh, but where? I will make my choices.

Wow! All of this, because you like to babble? Do you also like sitting down?

But, maybe I digress?

 

[Ebonyfire]

<snip>
But, maybe I digress?

I am still reeling from the visual of your swelling body parts.....

 

[DVS]

I am still reeling from the visual of your swelling body parts.....

Got you all hot and bothered, eh?

Now, now! I don't want you tying fishing weights to it and reaming my tight little behind!

Well, you can imagine it, if you want. That won't hurt me, any.

Yes, it's the PAIN I am not caring for. Being in your control wouldn't bother me. But, that PAIN!!

No, remember I am one of you. You can't convince me there will be no pain.

See you in my next life, Ebony. We will have fun!

 

[FungiUg]

I've watched abusers walk with little/no penalty for a bruise, a broken arm, a broken head. You didn't specify who they were minor infractions to, and if we consider what the justice system thinks in terms of sentencing, then geting caught for burglary carries a heavier sentence than assault in most cases. Im sure mine will be a controversial thesis .

I just don't think that you can quantify how different kinds of abuse effect different people. I've heard from many women that emotional abuse, is to them, often more painful than physical abuse.

I can only agree.

I think the original argument was equating abuse with BDSM, so you have digressed from that argument somewhat. Abuse is way too common, and as such, our societies tend to overlook it far too often.

But to come back to the original argument, while I agree that abuse is not a good thing, I've yet to see any evidence equating BDSM and abuse.

I suppose I should 'fess up and admit that I have been on the receiving end of abuse in my childhood. I way prefer being an adult! When I started getting in to BDSM, I had a few moral issues to sort out because of the overlap between the two.

Yes, I will admit there is overlap. Unfortunately, some of that is because past sufferers of abuse attempt to use BDSM to repeat that abuse. (I have met one woman like this.)

With thought, I realised that it wasn't an issue with BDSM per se, because it's more common for people who have been abused to either abuse others or seek more abuse in "conventional" relationships. It still happens in BDSM, but it's less common. Largely because of the stress on consensuality and sanity.

Abuse is not sane, nor is it consensual. As such... it doesn't fit into what we like to call BDSM.