When is it BSDM, and when is it abuse?

[Pixie Mischief]

the war

I think bush needs a new brain.

I'm so not for this war.
and I belive its a religious crusade.
Isnt church and state suppose to be seperated??

Bush said to the iraquis that it wasnt against them.. only saddam.
is this what you tell people you are going to murder?? "Sorry for killing you you where just in the way?"
Blahhh and now americans hate the french

C'est pas drole sa.

 

[Pure]

Hi Lancemanyon,

It seems to me that your last posting is rather detailed and fair, and I can read it without getting too irritated. I appreciate the candor.

If I may add a positive statement to what I suggested in questions. There are abundant claims about 'abuse.' Yours,
'bdsm is abuse'. Others have included "Masturbation is self-abuse" "Prostitution is abuse" or "Porn is abuse" or even "Using condoms is an abuse of human sexuality." (RCC position)

In each case, some set of norms is tacitly referred to, and needs to be unpacked. (Which presumably you could do if you set your mind to it.) Even when that is done, proper use of
sexuality is always a murky area. Further, if there were a clear ideal, it's always debatable whether any falling away--as in masturbation-- constitutes a substantive or morally significant 'abuse.'

Regards,
J.

 

[Justina123]

One teeny comment...

I am a submissive. I have no history of abuse whatsoever in my past. An informal poll of 4 of my submissive friends also turned up no history of abuse.

-justina

 

[MissTaken]

In regards to previous posts, I am not trying to impersonate someone else. I am not some troll trying to stir up trouble. I'm not going to tell you my real name or where I live for obvious reasons. But, I'm not pulling your chain either. I am very familiar with the V-bulletin software. All you have to do is go to the control panel and track the two users in question. You will soon find we are not the same. So don't blow smoke up my ass.

.

I felt this needed a fair response.
At Lit, forum mods do not have the capacity to search ip's for multiple id's. Only the webmaster's do. My posts were not intended to inflame, but merely provide my opinion.

I have no reason to believe you are trolling, but am a wait and see sort.

Again, your concerns have led to some thought provoking threads and I imagine that some here, are thinking about the question and doing some soul searching. That is never a bad thing.

Yes, the war has begun and while i have mixed feelings about whether we should or should not engage in a full blown attack, I feel for those who will be lost, on both sides. Yes, I pray for a quick end to it all.

As long as we are on the topic of war, my prayers go with the 10th Mountain Division. 11 soldiers died in a helicopter crash two weeks ago, on base. 5 of those soldiers had recently returned from Afghanistan. The survivors, still grieving their bretheren, are being deployed to the Middle East. How sad that they survived the Afghan mountains , only to lose their lives on American soil.

And prayers for all the men, women and children who will lose their lives or their loved ones in this conflict.

~~~~~~

You will find information concerning submissives and Dominants who are using BDSM as therapy or as a means of escaping or coping with past abuse issues. That is not to say all, or even most, submissives have abuse issues.

There is a lot of information out there to help BDSM practicioners be safe. Well, if your kink involves bondage, you are at the will of the Dominant and must be clear on your safety. A vanilla game player can wound your heart and your psyche, but isn't as likely to have you physically helpless and unable to exert your will.

BDSM is not a pathology, but taken in bits and pieces is seen as such. While Pure enjoys a debate of the links , I would simply invite you to chat with, get to know some of us and research the lifestyle for how it is NOT abuse.


I am curious and wonder if there is a website or two that can help. The ratio of BDSMers who have been abused compared to the ratio of adults who have been abused. I wonder if there is a discrepancy.

Also, not to draw the topic out incessantly, I have worked with victims' of Domestic violence who I truly believe are submissives who long for control and do not know how to safely have their needs met. Could a woman with a history of repeated domestically violent relationships benefit from a safe, sane and consensual BDSM relationsihp? I think so, but would not rixk my career by making munch groups and Dom searches part of a treatment plan!




Take care all.

 

[Pixie Mischief]

would explain...

why some women keep going back into the same kind of relationships.

my aunt is out of this fucked up relationship the guy is controling and hes always right anyway hes a major asshole. A pathological liar. he lies and believes it.
they have a kid together. anyway personally I'd love for him to disapear but it wont happen I guess.
anyway she asked the fucker back if he will have her back. he said no.
Bf says that my aunt wants to be dominated.

 

[cremebrulee]

Putting myself in front of the gun...

I really do have to say one thing in lance's defense.

I think it was a very thoughtful thing to ask for prayers OR WHATEVER YOU DO TO CONJURE UP GOOD... as he put it.
I spent 10 years in the military and know what it is like to feel that gut feeling that you may not go home, knowing that those guns and missiles on the other side are aimed in your direction.
The war is on their side religion and regime based, on our side a governmental decision. That's a rough thing to balance and causes both sides to react differently. As a US soldier, I know how we are trained in this country, but they are trained so much differently. There will be surprises for us.
I shant preach further, but they (our mlitary) deserve as many positive thoughts, prayers, happy feelings and whatever else we can throw their way. I don't think that's preaching religion, but humanity.

As far as the studies go on abuse and BDSM, I think (MHO) that they simply can't be accurate if you poll those in (or post) counseling. I have found that those who go for counseling are trying to get away from something ~ feeling or lifestyle ~ that is uncomfortable in one way or the other. Those of us who are comfortable with our lifestyles, whatever those may be, are not likely to seek counseling for them.
That might seem ovious, but it's food for thought. Makes sense to me.

Best to all,
~Creme

 

[lektra]

I am also a sub with no history of abuse, and while I am with John M about admitting that there are some sick individuals, who MissT correctly identifies as predators, out there, I don't consider them doms, just predators. I can say that I have met individuals who consider woman-hating and violence to be BSDM behaviour, it is not.

I also have experience in counselling survivors of abuse in intimate relationships, as well as working crisis lines etc. I have been there, so to speak. I can say with great conviction, that the abuse suffered by women is in no way asked for, in no way wanted, and in no way deserved. This is not BDSM, it is abuse, no consent was involved, and it was not a mutually agreed upon exchange of power, trust was breached. I could try to tell you the difference between mutual play and terrible forms of abuse, but it seems like you have already made up your mind.

You have a degree in counselling psych. One of the things I learned as a counsellor is to never judge people, and to always support them and to find out how they feel about something, how they percieve it, and to help them sort out feelings from there. I would say that, to a great extent, you need to listen to people who are involved in the lifestyle, instead of coming in with pre-determined understandings of what it is like etc. We are our own experts on ourselves. I don't agree that third party or so-called 'objective' information will give us the answer. As for most of those 'experts' they have pathologized alternative lifestyles and even the most mild kink as paraphilias, i don't buy it, or them.

If I need a first aid kit (which I never have done) after consensual play, it is anyone else's business? If you worked on crisis lines, you probably know that there are very effective ways of abusing people without ever touching them, and that this is just as horrible as physical abuse.

 

[Iceyskye]

Ask an athlete about pain, and you'll likely get answers similar to the ones you'll get here.

I know a Powerlifter who will agree with that one. Not only does he lift weights he's also a submissive. He laughs at floggers and paddles and crops. He says you want pain? Come to the gym with me for a day...I'll show you pain. He says he lets his wife/Mistress use a flogger on him when he needs a massage to work out the kinks he's gotten from lifting too much.

The man is 5'9" and weighs 280lbs..of pure solid muscle. She's 5'2" and half his weight..I don't think she's capable of abusing him. I know it's not mental abuse...she's one of the sweetist people I know.

Skye

 

[lark sparrow]

Masturbation makes one blind, not to mention the hairy palms - it's a well-known fact.

You say you masturbate and your palms aren't hairy nor are you blind? Hmm, must be self-delusion, as I have this information on record from a reliable third party source.

I am quite sure, if you think about it long enough and hard enough, that your vision will become blurry and you will see the coarse hairs sprouting from your palms.

I am here to save you from yourself. You only think you are happy and self-actualized. It's not too late to see and feel the truly wretched creatures you are.

My service here is done. Thank you, thank you very much. <bows> . o O (God, this work is rewarding!)

 

[MissTaken]

Re: Putting myself in front of the gun...

.

As far as the studies go on abuse and BDSM, I think (MHO) that they simply can't be accurate if you poll those in (or post) counseling. I have found that those who go for counseling are trying to get away from something ~ feeling or lifestyle ~ that is uncomfortable in one way or the other. Those of us who are comfortable with our lifestyles, whatever those may be, are not likely to seek counseling for them.
That might seem ovious, but it's food for thought. Makes sense to me.

Best to all,
~Creme

Using individuals who are participating in counseling to develop a random sample of the population is going to render a false representation.

Whether it is abuse or mental illness, people in counseling have volunteered to go. Many people who need therapy will never recognize the need and therefore the sample group is not an accurate representation of the population.

Good points on all counts, creme!

And I believe that we mustn't judge anyone, Lance included, based on a few posts and certianly wouldn't want to be judged a sampling of my posts, either.

 

[psiberzerker]

Lance just doesn't get it because he is not a sadomasochist. Straight people don't really understand gays, and their attractions, and I don't really understand either of them.
As for Iraque, it looks to me like we just got showed up in front of all our freinds, and the coward ran away. We can't find him, so we go beat up on the last ass we kicked. It's a dog, and pony show, and we aren't even trying to hide it.
Don't get me wrong, Saddam's an evil man, but the world, especially his part of it is full of them. We've been pokeing him in his cage with a stick for seven years, now we need to flop it out, and show everyone how big our dick is.
It's posturing, pure unadulterated flexing to show the world that we're still the virile military power we used to be. I've seen it too many times, on playgrounds, in bars, on highways, and in BDSM scenes. This arrogance will not go without response.
God bless, and save America, if she thinks it's worth it. We've been pretty bad, maybe we deserve it.

 

[Hecate]

subbing and self worth

Domestic Violence and Being Whipped

on childhood sexual abuse and desire for bondage/submission

Abuse, help for victims and issues related

This is only a basically random pic of 4 out of 219 threads you will get displayed if you enter the word "abuse" into the search function field here. So I hate to tell you the topic has basically been chewed to death - beating the dead horse literarily speaking!

Nevertheless, the topic as such is valid as show said 219 threads of previous times, even though I admittedly don't find much love in me for the way it has been "offered for discussion" in this thread.

As I just gave the complete discussion a glance over, I hope to address most points and hopefully not repeat too much.


Abuse happens - and once abused people are at later stages involved in hopefully happy sexual relations. Full Stop. Of course this means there will be abuse victims and un-charged abusers out there as well and as the BDSM community is as mixed a bunch as is society in general, chances are there are just as many of those involved into BDSM than in any other sexual kink, fetish or totally 'nilla missionary style. I have yet to see any proofe that there are more abuse-involved persons into BDSM than into non-BDSM!

lancemanyon said someplace:

I will say this....when I first do a search for "BDSM" the sites which first come up tend to be personal pages, independent sites. And almost without exception they tend to display warnings about those who would abuse in the name of bdsm. So it seems my warnings are not that far from the mark

Uhm , now, as one of the "personal site owners" I am deeply troubled by exactly that quoted statement! <sarcasm>I definitely would be out warning about abuse if I then went out abusing people making abuse the main issue of my web page - yeah, uhm - errrr.... makes sense .... not even in my blonde female logic!
</sarcasm off>

We as active and educated participants in BDSM are much aware of the prejudices we are confronted with and even more about the responsibility we take for ourselves and the ones who place their trust in us. We as educated, adult and responsible BDSM-participants are at the same time aware of the dangers this kind of "active loving" may pose to those uninformed, easily gullible or naive by those who have seen the potential in "BDSM" for a quick, convenient and selfish lay. This is why we, as responsible and mentally completely stable BDSM-practitioners, warn those who may be endangered by these maybe for some appearing extreme practices and hopefully keep them from stumbling into something that is not good for them.

But apart from the fact that BDSM does NOT equal pain (I will get on a longer rant about that at some later stage for sure), the danger of an abuse inclined victim is no bigger in BDSM than anywhere else in our society.

If anyone tells anyone to jump of a bride and the other follows that advise - excuse me - that is not BDSM but deadly (silly) nevertheless.

If the bloke round the corner picks up a pissed chick at the pub and hits her in the face in the back of his van to have his way with her, that is not BDSM but abuse.

If the husband forces - coerces - his wife into missionary style sex, threatening her with whatever may work, that is not BDSM, that is just abuse.

As has been said before "safe, sane and consensual" that is what makes BDSM a pleasurable, enjoyable expereince for all parties involved - and no matter what is actually happening, as long as it is following SSC it is not abuse.

The key word is Consensual in this case! Every party participating does so at free will, and has the option to stop it at any given moment in the blink of an eye, without the fear of consequences that are feared even more.

Now - to the advertised "BDSM does not equal pain" rant:

BDSM stands for many things - but if we take the common interpretations it includes elements of

D/s = Dominance / submission: no pain in this, actually submissives/slaves are usually treasured prices of a Dominant and treated well (in our maybe seemingly twisted understanding - but something not all wives in 'nilla marriage can say)
Submission does NOT mean"take any crap I dish out without complaining" - we are still talking about CONSENSUAL, an agreed, negotiated volume of Power Transfer.

B for Bondage = there is no pain involved in tying someone up! there is no pain involved in putting someone in handcuffs. Yes, it is a "mental" issue more than a physical if done propperly and with due care ...

.. but the one thing that takes BDSM Miles away from abuse is Consent and Trust

As for the "sado/maso" issue - pain can be involved (doesn't have to though, I know many BDSM relations that never involve anything extremely painful and still have total Power Exchange) but what is pain?
What I may consider painfull may for someone else be a mere tickle - can I thus judge? And something else that may bring a scary haunted expression to another may be a thrill for me!

Anal sex is NOT AT ALL related to BDSM, and still, some like it, some don't, some tolerate it, some hate it! Does that make anal sex abuse in itself? No, only if it is administered under physical or psychological pressure.

If one party can not consent to what is happening or feels they can not trust themselves or the partner, this person should NOT be involved into any BDSM activity - and if it is BDSM nothing and nobody will stop them from leaving the scene... not what I would assume is an option in an abuse situation!

Again - it is not BDSM just because it hurts - it is BDSM because the parties involved agree to safe, sane and consensual actions that may be to the pleasure and benefits of both.

Now, it seems that the only valuable "source" of information is considered official third party information ... excuse me, but I do consider my own experiences and first-hand observations much more valuable and reliable.

I am a "practitioning" (is that a word as in "in know what I am about as I have first hand experience for a while"?) Dominant in a happy happy shiny shiny relation. I do not at this stage live a 24/7 TPE, but enjoy the kinkyness of sex and the thrill of strong trust that BDSM allows me to expereince with my partner.

I have never had any abuse issues in my live, not even remotely. I am close to and happy with my family, never had a partner who has been abused and sought BDSM because of that (likelyhood of meeting a lover who has abused issues - as stated in the beginning - is imo eqully hight DSM or no) - and I am sure if my darling pet would speak up she'd tell you that our relation is more intimate, trusting and elevating that we would ever have thought.

I am a mentally totally stable person, I have no controll issues as a compensation of not having enough control of my life or anything such and I am NOT a SADIST but a Dominant! I take no pleasure from hurting anyone - my pleasure is seeing the reaction my ministrations provoke, the deliscious shiver when I look at my sub and they know "something is in the air". Theit pleasure is as paramount as mine - just that our ways of pleasure meed those contrasts to be brought to completion.

I think what I feel is as close to old fashioned love as you can get - I shall cherish thee till death does us part (or such ...) and in addition I am not only true to my partner, I am true to myself and what is more important : I force them to be true to THEMSELVES! More than many 'nilla relations can say that came to pass for rather sustenance, support and social convention reasons.

We are doing what we do becasue we WANT to - both of us! If we WANT pain, we are free to have it in a safe surrounding.
If we WANT power exchange and D/s we are free to enjoy in a sane environment without false inhibitions and self-destructive guitl for giving in to a desire that society has tried to condition out of us. If we WANT to have wild, kinky, hot sex we can do so in all the crazy wonderfull ways and places and role plays we like because it is a mutual, CONSENSUAL desire of two completely sane, safe and consenting adults in firm grasp of the physical and psychological implementations of the journey they embark on.

We are maybe the stronger, saner people - Dominant and submissive alike - for we face our demaons and cope with them - we overcome them if needed or we find caring support to deal with them.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not advocating that we as BDSM'ers are anyhow superior people but I have to strictly fend off any even remote association that our lifestyle in its basics abusive in itself or that we are mentally disordered! If I ever got the slightes feel that my partners/submissives were suffering from the lifestyle or the connection to me I'd be ther first to take them, shake them and get them back into reality!

To those who know me - I guess you expected a ramble of that sort as my "come back" specially on that kind of topic - to lancemanyon: don't get me wrong - I am not on a crusade FOR BDSM - but I do not take kindly to anyone casting blunt prejudice about something that is close to my heart - even if only for the liberty of living life as I enjoy it without harming anyone "in my wake".

 

[bunny bondage]

this is what i get for going to have fun for a night with Him - a whole huge post springs up that i should have been invloved with from the beginning!

boxing, let's talk about boxing (since it's something in which i have experience. i think it's important to only speak with authority about things in which one is actually involved - yes?) when i get hit in the face by eric, this big mother fucker who could squash me if he wanted to, and he splits my lip open causing it to swell and bleed, is this abuse? when skyler (my ex) knocked my cheekbone so hard my eye swelled shut, was this abuse? just because we had sparring pads on, mouthpieces in, and instead of being upset i congratulated them, does this mean it wasn't abuse? after all, i was hurt by men and i couldn't block the punches. was i just seeking to recreate some sort of awful experience from my past? or do i just LIKE BOXING?

now true, this isn't the same as bdsm, since in boxing the goal is to NOT get hit and knock out your opponant, whereas in bdsm my goal is to get hit as hard as i can take and thank my punisher for the attention. but i think i've made my point. physical pain does not equal victimizing abuse. at least, i hope i've managed to make my point.

here's another point. there's this tribe (i totally forget which one, i know, i'm uncultured) that has these things called "lip discs". these are inserted into a slit in the bottom lip and increased in size as the person gets older. eventually, the nether lip is stretched out to extreme proportions in order to accomadate the wooden circles. now would I ever do this? absolutly not. but do i have the right to judge the people who do? well, since it's not MY culture, and i've never lived with those people, and it's not at all a part of my life, i have absolutly no authority in this matter. should i say that the parents are abusing the children by subjecting them to this? no, it's not my place. they live by an entirely different set of standards and rules. their culture is not the same as mine, and therefore, my rules do not apply to them. the same is true on a smaller scale for bdsm versus vanilla folks. what you consider abuse i consider a show of love. it's not your world, you don't know what you're talking about, and you're trying to judge apples by the rules that apply to oranges. get my point here?

 

[lark sparrow]

lol some of them even use bands of necklaces around their neck, more like a posture collar, and add them throughout their life, "unnaturally" elongating their necks... if the rings are removed they will actually suffocate and die.

Sometimes not only do you not want to go back, but you can't.

 

[Pure]

Bunny B said:
here's another point. there's this tribe (i totally forget which one, i know, i'm uncultured) that has these things called "lip discs". these are inserted into a slit in the bottom lip and increased in size as the person gets older. eventually, the nether lip is stretched out to extreme proportions in order to accomadate the wooden circles. now would I ever do this? absolutly not. but do i have the right to judge the people who do? well, since it's not MY culture,

Good point, bunny b.

An African friend of mine told me of a tribe in his country--the Luo-- that at around puberty for the male, knock off his two, upper front teeth; they are 'tapped' and break off, just at the gumline.

Another interesting pain ritual in our culture and others, is tatooing, and/or scarification.

 

[Pixie Mischief]

*Cringes* well I do know in hystory alof ot body piercings as rituals.

Like also I'm told in history I dont know if its true but a man's penis was opened and rocks insurted in it????

 

[lancemanyon]

I hate to jump in here with this one lame comment, with so much to address, but.....how about female circumcision? In some cultures that is a tradition. Does that mean it doesn't constitute abuse? Or for that matter, male circumcision. There is no medical reason to have it done, as long as the male recognizes a need to keep the area clean. It's done in America everyday. Is that not abuse?

This can be a very deep topic. I'm thankful for all who have contributed to this thread, and for the pm's I have received.

Pixie, are you French?

I'll try to contribute more this weekend. I am still having a hard time with the extremes; ie cutting, etc.

 

[Pure]

LM:

I hate to jump in here with this one lame comment, with so much to address, but.....how about female circumcision? In some cultures that is a tradition. Does that mean it doesn't constitute abuse? Or for that matter, male circumcision. There is no medical reason to have it done, as long as the male recognizes a need to keep the area clean. It's done in America everyday. Is that not abuse?

What you need, LM is to define "abuse." Is it other than 'a happening I don't approve of'?

 

[FungiUg]

Okay, to do my "jumping in boots and all" thing.

Abuse is not consensual. It's that simple. BDSM on the other hand, stresses the "consensual" nature of the play.

Okay, people can get hurt in BDSM. But that's true of life in general. Sport for example. Is boxing abuse? (For my money, that would come way closer to abuse than BDSM would.)

Also, there are many different kinds of "BDSM" (it's an unbrella term), many of which don't include pain. In my own case, I like to include spanking and biting. But I have been asked specifically to do those things (and don't do them where I know the person wouldn't enjoy them.) I have had a woman enjoy spanking to the point where she orgasmed while being spanked.

I think you are stretching very hard to label BDSM as abuse. It's consensual, and between adults. And it concentrates on being up-front and informed. It's hard to see how someone could be a "victim" under these circumstances, and without a victim, how can it be abuse?

Personally, if you want a crusade, I'd go after all of the churches which still practice brainwashing, rape and sexual abuse. (Yep, even here in little ol' New Zealand, it still happens.) Now there's a crusade!

 

[MissTaken]

Lance?

For some, the endorphin rush of extreme BDSM play is the draw.

I have no experience with cutting and so can't address that, but can discuss flogging, riding crops or breast play.

What seems like it SHOULD be painful, is not. The crop doesn't hurt, rather , it makes me tingle. Adn once tingling, one swift, hard swat with a riding crop will make me cum, ferociously.

Also, additional information, I read an article recently which discussed a particular gene that may affect an individual's tolerance for pain. The article reinforced for me that what is painful to you may not be for me.


Pain, itself, is a conglomeration of sensations that are not all unpleasant. However if a person's body naturally or vis a vis conditioning dampens the harsh painful sensations and the tingling, warmth and more erotic sensations are more powerful, then some forms of BDSM play may be desirable.

Further point, if someone swats me with a riding crop when I am not in an aroused sexual state, it will hurt and they will get swatted back! (Not really, but seems funny.) However, when aroused, that same swat is erotic and exciting.

Basically, as with any sexual act, how one person enjoys sex will vary from another, every time. There is some mystique to BDSM, even to those who practice regularly, which may have something to do with the difficulty in explaining it to someone with little or no experience.

As for tolerance and understanding something you don't know. psiber made some very good points. I am going to take his post a step further. If you met someone with the "disc lip" thing and fumbled, bungled and blurted out a question like, "Why would anyone do that?" How would you want to be responded to?

Just my own input and two cents.....I may be totally off base here.

But doubt it.

Take care all...I have got to get some sleep...I am struggling to type and am talking in code and circles!

 

[MissTaken]

LM:

I hate to jump in here with this one lame comment, with so much to address, but.....how about female circumcision? In some cultures that is a tradition. Does that mean it doesn't constitute abuse? Or for that matter, male circumcision. There is no medical reason to have it done, as long as the male recognizes a need to keep the area clean. It's done in America everyday. Is that not abuse?

What you need, LM is to define "abuse." Is it other than 'a happening I don't approve of'?

I would say that this is not abuse. One of the components to abuse is long term emotional harm. A child doesn't grow up hating his parents for the pain suffered as a newborn infant.

I will be back tomorrow with more on the technical end of what constitutes abuse and maltreatment.

(So many thoughts for such a fuzzy mind!)

 

[Pure]

cremebrulee said

I shant preach further, but they (our military) deserve as many positive thoughts, prayers, happy feelings and whatever else we can throw their way.

I agree with this. Whatever the wisdom of this war decision, the soldiers deserve respect and heart felt support.

J.

 

[RandomInk]

Damn that's a lot to read. Some really great responses I've seen and incredibly educated and thought provoking querys (sp) have been made by some of Lit's most fervent subscribers. However, I can't remember some of what I read because right before I looked at this topic I was in a wonderfully deep and technical discussions with some friends about intake manifold design, volumetric efficiency, quench area, port matching, and combustion chamber physics. So I'm a car nut too...

Anyway... just my two cents... I have no history of abuse or depression. Just some really insignificant ADHD (I'm on such small dosage its been argued whether I should take anything at all) and a little down and out period after my grandfather passed. I willingly became interested in BDSM when I was 15 and researched it extensively before becoming involved personally. The internet was less poluted back then and topics were easier to research without pop-ups and unrelated drivel.

I was not abused or suffered any trauma until I was 17. That happened when I was discovering myself and bisexuality and I was raped. I've gotten past that with some help from close friends and professional advice. I in no way hate guys, just that one. Afterward though, I returned to the BDSM scene/lifestyle. The lifestyle has always been more fulfilling for me, it began as an experiment with myself and quickly became part of me as a person.

I suppose my brief self-description and life story has been along the lines of many others who have responded. Just as an example that only those with a troubled or abusive past are drawn to BDSM as a reason to relive humiliation, pain, or trauma. However, I believe Lancemanyon's opinion does have an "Achilles Heel".

"For the subs because I believe most if not all subs have very painful experiences (abuse) in their pasts which have drawn them to this; to have their abuse relived over and over again. Often this is done subconsciously."

"I consider it dangerous for doms because I believe them to be a type of person who enjoys hurting other vulnerable persons."

How do you explain the phychology behind those of us who are "Switches". Who have, and can, decide at will to either be Dominant or Submissive. People like myself.

 

[Pure]

Hecate says,

SSC indicates non-abuse or (if ssc, then no abuse)

FungiUg says,

Consensual indicates non-abuse (if c, then no abuse)

Neither person defines 'abuse'.

Neither formula really works, since mild spouse abuse--assuming it exists--between two sane people may be consensual (in that if you ask the receiver, she essentially agrees the harsh action was appropriate).

In case anyone believes female 'circumcision' is abuse, as I tend to, that too, if done by a London doctor--as Somalis in London do-- is safe, sane, and consensual (or as much as you can, given that it's often a minor; iow she says she wants it.).

The positions of these two, and several others, make sense only if they basically deny there is any abuse of which one is unaware.

 

[FungiUg]

SSC indicates non-abuse or (if ssc, then no abuse)

FungiUg says,

Consensual indicates non-abuse (if c, then no abuse)

Neither person defines 'abuse'.

Didn't realise a definition of abuse was required, and to be honest, I think any definition would be very subjective. For me, abuse is non-consensual behaivour.

Neither formula really works, since mild spouse abuse--assuming it exists--between two sane people may be consensual (in that if you ask the receiver, she essentially agrees the harsh action was appropriate).

I'm not sure what your point is here. But from what I understand of what you are saying, a woman might agree that she was "out of line", but not agree that a "black eye" is the appropriate consequence. So it's still non-consensual.

In case anyone believes female 'circumcision' is abuse, as I tend to, that too, if done by a London doctor--as Somalis in London do-- is safe, sane, and consensual (or as much as you can, given that it's often a minor; iow she says she wants it.).

There are different kinds of female circumcision, and to be honest, some of them I would regard as societal abuse. Most of them I would regard as unnecessary. All of them I think should be banned for minors.

The positions of these two, and several others, make sense only if they basically deny there is any abuse of which one is unaware.

Er, you lost me.

If someone renders me unconcious and rapes me, I may not be aware, but it's still non-consensual, and still abuse.