Who has the power in a D/s relationship?

[catalina_francisco]

Apples and Oranges. The other people you mention don't give up their free will. A person in the military sign a contract giving themselves for a period of time to the military but even in that they have free will. If they cannot follow an order because of their morals or ethics then they don't obey the order and accept the consequences. What you and OSG are declaring is that you are property and property has no say in it's fate. You are pawning off your free will allowing yourselves to be "blame free". That has to be the biggest cop out I have ever heard. In the lifestyle you are describing you are free of any responsibility for your actions. The finger of any blame or responsibility goes to the Dom. How are you going to explain to the police when you're driving to the store and back and speeding because Master told you to do the errand as fast as possible? Are you going to say you're not responsible for your actions because you've given your free will to someone else? Are you going to tell the cop he can't give you a ticket because you were following your Master's orders?

I think what bugs me the most in all of this is the fact that it seems that you are advocating that you aren't responsible for any actions seeing as you have given up your free will. That in "giving yourself" to your Master you have cleared yourself of any and all responsibility for your actions.

LOL, I never get how fruit gets into these discussions, but some people are kinky I guess. As to my not having responsibility, I have more responsibility than ever I had because that is what he chooses to assign to me as part of my tasks....IOW, I am placed in a position to make some fairly hefty decisions within our lives, and if I make the wrong ones, not only do I live with the consequences, but I answer for them and will be punished. Apart from that, I am expected to live up to his expectations in every way which means not embarrassing him in public, or causing him any difficulties which are totally unnecessary. Contrary to the image of the pillow princess who has nothing to do but file her nails and make herself pretty all day, I do everything from heavy physical labour (to the point of bleeding hands) to money management in our household, and am still expected to look and feel good for him when he is ready for me and be always available.

I'm not sure where you got your ideas, except they seem to closely resemble a lot of the badly written porn based on BDSM lifestyles and often written by people who have never tried it for themselves, but think they know enough to write about it. As to your speeding analogy....well see, he went for a smart sub who he could rely on to not only entertain him and be an assett, but who wouldn't require him to micromanage every moment of the day and could actually rely on to take much of the weight from him physically and mentally when asked. That means he does not have to explain to me that I shouldn't speed to get the task done, and in the process cost him money in having to pay the fine, anymore than he expects me to whip out a cape from the closet and fly in superhero style to do the errand. Speeding is also the cause of many traffic accidents and fatalities, so to speed would not only be risking his material property as in his car, but would also be risking his property as in me, and then if I were injured or worse, depriving him of my valueable service and causing him a great inconvenience. These things he knows I understand so whereas he would obviously have to explain it in detail to you if you were his slave, he knows I know it and understand the terms applied in taking care of what is his property and in the best interests of valuing his possessions in the way he expects them to be and without disrupting the service he has become accustomed to. It's really simple when you think about it.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

*smiles* great analogies cat though i would never be able to live my life the way you do with no 'out clause' i do admire you for the way you do it. i've seen you have to defend the way you live the lifestyle so many times and i was one of them once that you had to defend it for, but now that i 'get it' when i see your posts i just smile. your lifestyle is by far not for everyone, me included, but i love your posts, and i don't take them as you saying your way is the only way, or the 'best' way, it's just the best way, the only way for you, that makes sense to me....just as everyone else says their way is the 'best' way for them......why is that hard to understand??

LOL, that is good...not sure why it is hard for some to understand. Must be one of those mysteries of the universe.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

that is not giving up my 'free will' because i CHOOSE to live this way, that's my free will at work. cat CHOOSES to live the way she lives. who are you to tell her she's being abused or that she's not living right??

LOL, the funny thing is I have probably enjoyed far more freedom in my vanilla life than many of those who feel I need to be liberated. I mean to say, there was that cute, muscle bound 21 yo movie star looks guy I had the pleasure of taking multiple times and educating in the ways of pleasing a woman following my divorce (and being many years older myself...hmm, I remember him smiling as I took him for the first time on my front door mat after pulling him through the door and telling him not to say a thing ), and there were a lot of men who definately were willing to sit at my feet for the chance to make me happy in a multitude of ways, and of course I have raised my children alone, paid off a mortgage alone, made a successful career, and I even had a couple of delicious women throw themselves my way, so why do they feel I don't know what I am doing and I need to be rescued from myself? ROFLMAO, for the first time I am doing what really makes me happy, and is vastly different to what I have already lived...variety is the spice of life after all.

Catalina

 

[the captians wench]

LOL, the funny thing is I have probably enjoyed far more freedom in my vanilla life than many of those who feel I need to be liberated. I mean to say, there was that cute, muscle bound 21 yo movie star looks guy I had the pleasure of taking multiple times and educating in the ways of pleasing a woman following my divorce (and being many years older myself...hmm, I remember him smiling as I took him for the first time on my front door mat after pulling him through the door and telling him not to say a thing ), and there were a lot of men who definately were willing to sit at my feet for the chance to make me happy in a multitude of ways, and of course I have raised my children alone, paid off a mortgage alone, made a successful career, and I even had a couple of delicious women throw themselves my way, so why do they feel I don't know what I am doing and I need to be rescued from myself? ROFLMAO, for the first time I am doing what really makes me happy, and is vastly different to what I have already lived...variety is the spice of life after all.

Catalina

Now that's one chick that's got her shit together.

I know a few men who would be jealous of what you've managed....tho the first one that comes to mind would tell you to keep the guys. *giggles*

 

[Etoile]

Hey Cat and osg, I am just wondering about semantics here. Would you agree that you have the ability to walk away? I'm talking about from a purely physical point of view. I know you couldn't, and you wouldn't - but would you say you are able to, assuming you are not physically restrained?

Because I think that's what people have a hard time accepting when slaves say they cannot leave. I think their assumption is that "oh, yes you can, you just put one foot in front of the other, you can leave." And I don't think any slave would disagree with that. That's just simple physics. But when a slave says "I can't leave my Master," they're not talking about physical ability...I assume, anyway. They're talking about mental ability, and that is a very different story.

I'm not mentally capable of leaving my Daddy, either. I actually tried to several years ago, because being in two relationships was overwhelming, and that was the choice I made. But I couldn't...I could not do it. And yet, every time I have to come home (because that's how I lead my life, is in two worlds), I physically walk through the door and down the stairs. Mental ability to leave and physical ability to leave are not at all the same thing, but they are both abilities, and they are both very real factors influencing the slave.

edit: I posted this before catching up on this thread, and I see this has been tangentially touched on, but I'd be interested in further answers anyway if you wouldn't mind

 

[ownedsubgal]

Hey Cat and osg, I am just wondering about semantics here. Would you agree that you have the ability to walk away? I'm talking about from a purely physical point of view. I know you couldn't, and you wouldn't - but would you say you are able to, assuming you are not physically restrained?

Because I think that's what people have a hard time accepting when slaves say they cannot leave. I think their assumption is that "oh, yes you can, you just put one foot in front of the other, you can leave." And I don't think any slave would disagree with that. That's just simple physics. But when a slave says "I can't leave my Master," they're not talking about physical ability...I assume, anyway. They're talking about mental ability, and that is a very different story.

I'm not mentally capable of leaving my Daddy, either. I actually tried to several years ago, because being in two relationships was overwhelming, and that was the choice I made. But I couldn't...I could not do it. And yet, every time I have to come home (because that's how I lead my life, is in two worlds), I physically walk through the door and down the stairs. Mental ability to leave and physical ability to leave are not at all the same thing, but they are both abilities, and they are both very real factors influencing the slave.

edit: I posted this before catching up on this thread, and I see this has been tangentially touched on, but I'd be interested in further answers anyway if you wouldn't mind

from a purely physical standpoint, there have certainly been times i've had the ability to walk away. however how far would i get and where would i go? i'm not familiar with the area, don't drive, don't have friends in the area, no money of my own to speak of, no ability to live independently, etc. then there's the fact that when we are apart he checks on me quite frequently, and if i were not home or even just did not answer the phone after a couple of tries, he would immediately come looking for me...and i don't have to spell out how that story would end.

but the truth is that the majority of the time even the physical ability to leave is denied, since i'm not permitted to go anyplace alone, and not permitted to leave the house at all when he is not there. whenever he leaves for more than a few minutes, he locks me in the house. He used to lock me in always, but he got annoyed with having to deal with the double locks when he was just making a quick run to the drugstore or something. at night when we go to bed, he locks my leash to a little ring in the wall by the headboard.

i know of slaves kept in far more confining situations, who i would say never have the physical ability to leave. so it's not an outlandish idea.

however physical ability to leave is secondary to the mental ability to leave, imo. i couldn't ever see myself leaving my Master, even if i was in a constant state of misery, even if all the doors and windows were wide open and there was a taxi waiting for me outside. i just would not be able to do it. why? it's really difficult to explain. there is the fact that i would have no right to do so, therefore i would be doing something morally and ethically wrong in my eyes. there is the fact that i gave myself to this person, made a commitment. there is the fact that my life would truly be meaningless without him. there is the fact that i would not know how to function in the world without him. there is the fact that i would live in constant fear of what he would do to me once he found me (and he WOULD find me). but there is even more to it than that....miss pihla mentioned brainwashing...i would call it conditioning. i have been conditioned as property. this is what i am now. anything else is just not a possibility.

and Etoile i think people have an even harder time understanding someone not having a mental ability to leave than they do someone not having the physical ability to do so.

 

[Etoile]

from a purely physical standpoint, there have certainly been times i've had the ability to walk away. however how far would i get and where would i go? i'm not familiar with the area, don't drive, don't have friends in the area, no money of my own to speak of, no ability to live independently, etc. then there's the fact that when we are apart he checks on me quite frequently, and if i were not home or even just did not answer the phone after a couple of tries, he would immediately come looking for me...and i don't have to spell out how that story would end.

but the truth is that the majority of the time even the physical ability to leave is denied, since i'm not permitted to go anyplace alone, and not permitted to leave the house at all when he is not there. whenever he leaves for more than a few minutes, he locks me in the house. He used to lock me in always, but he got annoyed with having to deal with the double locks when he was just making a quick run to the drugstore or something. at night when we go to bed, he locks my leash to a little ring in the wall by the headboard.

i know of slaves kept in far more confining situations, who i would say never have the physical ability to leave. so it's not an outlandish idea.

however physical ability to leave is secondary to the mental ability to leave, imo. i couldn't ever see myself leaving my Master, even if i was in a constant state of misery, even if all the doors and windows were wide open and there was a taxi waiting for me outside. i just would not be able to do it. why? it's really difficult to explain. there is the fact that i would have no right to do so, therefore i would be doing something morally and ethically wrong in my eyes. there is the fact that i gave myself to this person, made a commitment. there is the fact that my life would truly be meaningless without him. there is the fact that i would not know how to function in the world without him. there is the fact that i would live in constant fear of what he would do to me once he found me (and he WOULD find me). but there is even more to it than that....miss pihla mentioned brainwashing...i would call it conditioning. i have been conditioned as property. this is what i am now. anything else is just not a possibility.

and Etoile i think people have an even harder time understanding someone not having a mental ability to leave than they do someone not having the physical ability to do so.

I absolutely agree with you 100%. The mind does come first, and people don't understand how that works sometimes. In fact, the fact that the mind comes first explains how I can walk out of my Daddy's home at the end of a weekend, and yet still be unable to leave, to end the relationship. My mind - the power Daddy holds over me - those are what keep me from ending the relationship, not the fact that I am incapable of walking out the door. (And actually, it has been outlined to me very clearly that if I attempted to run away, or hide, or break the relationship...I would also be found. And I know it's true.)

Thank you for answering my question and explaining it a little further. I really appreciate it.

 

[BiBunny]

I'm not mentally capable of leaving my Daddy, either. I actually tried to several years ago, because being in two relationships was overwhelming, and that was the choice I made. But I couldn't...I could not do it. And yet, every time I have to come home (because that's how I lead my life, is in two worlds), I physically walk through the door and down the stairs. Mental ability to leave and physical ability to leave are not at all the same thing, but they are both abilities, and they are both very real factors influencing the slave.

I sort of identify with this, Etoile. Every time B. and I spend time together, one of us has to leave eventually. As much as I like to be with him, we have separate lives outside of each other and our relationship. I usually end up physically walking away from him once every week or so. The reason I can do this is that I know I'll be walking back to him before too long.

At one point, the tension in our relationship became unbearable. I tried and tried to convince myself to leave, but I could not. I didn't have the mental ability to walk away from him, so I talked to him about the way I was feeling. We were able to work things out (not entirely to my satisfaction, but it's much better than it was, and I don't want to get too far off-topic here). Truth be told, I don't think he has the mental ability to leave me, either.

For us, either of us has the prerogative to leave if we so choose. We just don't "choose."

 

[frappy]

Hey Cat and osg, I am just wondering about semantics here. Would you agree that you have the ability to walk away? I'm talking about from a purely physical point of view. I know you couldn't, and you wouldn't - but would you say you are able to, assuming you are not physically restrained?

I do have the physical ability to leave, if I really wanted to, but that would mean A) I wanted to. and B) Going back on my commitment to my Master and myself. I lack the mental or emotional ability to leave. I am very much enslaved to Him. That suits me just fine.

I second osg's post.

Also, let me just say right now that I have a kind Master who takes excellent care of me, and pushes me to take excellent care of both of us.

 

[Netzach]

Do any of the people who talk about an inability to leave also find that there's a component of you can't do it because of your commitment to self/commitment to who you are and what you've gotten into?

I don't ID as sub, but I definitely do feel rooted to the spot by saying I'm in it, saying "I am doing this."

I found that when bottoming, this is what made me really push into outlandish situations at times, this sense of seeing it through.

However I might have to adapt, however much I might have to change my notion of what I want - I am a slave to the relationship and to my own sense of commitment and investment, if not the man. I'm not minimizing the power the D has over you in this sense, just wondering to what degree your sense of self and self image also feeds into this.

 

[frappy]

Do any of the people who talk about an inability to leave also find that there's a component of you can't do it because of your commitment to self/commitment to who you are and what you've gotten into?

I don't ID as sub, but I definitely do feel rooted to the spot by saying I'm in it, saying "I am doing this."

I found that when bottoming, this is what made me really push into outlandish situations at times, this sense of seeing it through.

However I might have to adapt, however much I might have to change my notion of what I want - I am a slave to the relationship and to my own sense of commitment and investment, if not the man. I'm not minimizing the power the D has over you in this sense, just wondering to what degree your sense of self and self image also feeds into this.

I'd say yes, that's part of it. I hadn't thought of it that way.

There's a quote attributed to Buddha that I do my best to live by - It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell.

It would be a real blow to who I am to cut and run, even if I sometimes want to. Like now, when my feelings are hurt. I guess it comes down to be enslaved to him and my sense of self worth.

I'd wager that plenty 'nilla relationships are much the same.

Nicely done, Netzach, you made me think!

 

[misspihla]

What you don't understand is that some people make the choice to give up that power.

Nope. I think you dont understand my point. So if someone give up that power and their owner ignores them for rest of his/her life.. do you seriously mean they will just be lost and unable to find a life of their own? I think that would be extremely rare case no matter how devoted sub/slave one is. Giving up is a concent choise and human is able to do another concent choise later.

 

[misspihla]

Ill continue in another post because this phone is so limited with forms...

i think we basically talk about same thing but call it differently. You too mentioned that its hard and takes will to give up power. I absolotely agree. But its not hard because they would have no options left anymore but because they make concent decicion not to consider them as options anymore. Still thes are there and insome situation they might choose otherwise.

 

[misspihla]

I hope you dont take this as offence toward life-style. Quite contrary i admire people who live that way - especially because i believe they choose live that way every day even when it is hard not only because they made decision long time ago and now would be helpless.

 

[FurryFury]

I don't mean to be offensive to anyone but I must say that the whole, I'll track you down if you leave thing is really not okay for me. I clearly don't have the slave mentality. If that is part of it. To me that isn't part of a consensual relationship.

I'd absolutely hate not knowing how to drive or get along in the world. These are not things I'd want in my life. When I hear stuff like that it seriously worries me for the mental health and physical safety of that person.

However the whole, I could leave physically but I can't leave emotionally thing totally makes sense to me. If that's not two sided then we have a relationship in which the commitment doesn't flow both ways.

Fury

 

[Netzach]

I don't mean to be offensive to anyone but I must say that the whole, I'll track you down if you leave thing is really not okay for me. I clearly don't have the slave mentality. If that is part of it. To me that isn't part of a consensual relationship.

I'd absolutely hate not knowing how to drive or get along in the world. These are not things I'd want in my life. When I hear stuff like that it seriously worries me for the mental health and physical safety of that person.

However the whole, I could leave physically but I can't leave emotionally thing totally makes sense to me. If that's not two sided then we have a relationship in which the commitment doesn't flow both ways.

Fury

*shrug* it's not for me either. Helplessness and dependency are totally antithetical to usefulness in terms of what I need a slave for. Then again, I do my own cooking and dometic stuff and what I need a slave for is more someone to beat to get my frustrations out (no lectures on anger and SM, this is how he likes it and I have the self control to do this responsibly) and someone who is going to contribute to my comfort materially and contribute to my business plan and my business needs with intellectual capital which definitely meshes in the outside world guised as "alpha." Additionally, WHY I would track a single runaway when the next person who wants to serve me will do is completely beyond me. I don't care for the implication of irreplacability that "I'll track you down and you will never leave" has, I enjoy much more the sense of INstability that "While I do love you, I may just give you away someday" lends. But that's my preference.

I have never encountered a Fem/m or Fem/butch pairing in which the inability to leave or the dire consequence of leaving is a big issue at all in the sense of the D saying "I will insure you are never able to leave." It's much more an issue of "if you decide to break with the relationship you will never, ever, dream that you will see me again, you will be dead to me."

I'm sure they're out there, but in nowhere near the numbers as M/f pairings who make this an issue. I find a lot of psychic differences at the core of these relationships that are totally overlooked when people are talking about power differentials, absolute exchanges, and absolute power. To me, my willingness to say to H "if you run, consider yourself gone for good" MUCH more indicative of my absolute status in relation to him. It sticks him seriously with his own inability to do that.

 

[misspihla]

One thing just came into my mind:
Divorces are really common nowdays - not to mention how often non-married pairs split up. How often does D/s relationships break? Does sub giving up all power mean they will live together ever after?

 

[FurryFury]

One thing just came into my mind:
Divorces are really common nowdays - not to mention how often non-married pairs split up. How often does D/s relationships break? Does sub giving up all power mean they will live together ever after?

That would be interesting to find out. My guess is that D/s relationships suffer breaks as well. I'd like to think the numbers are lower due to increased responsibility and communication that they might have. It might not suss out that way though.

I've heard here that in the more casual scene pairs often break up. I would guess that is because people who are in that scene usually want to have more variety in partners rather than make such a commitment as one on one D/s pairs.

Fury

 

[the captians wench]

That would be interesting to find out. My guess is that D/s relationships suffer breaks as well. I'd like to think the numbers are lower due to increased responsibility and communication that they might have. It might not suss out that way though.

I've heard here that in the more casual scene pairs often break up. I would guess that is because people who are in that scene usually want to have more variety in partners rather than make such a commitment as one on one D/s pairs.

Fury

I agree. Me when I make a commitment I tend to be thinking ever after, but it doesn't always work out that way. Jounar is my first owner so I really can't speak on that. But I have had 3 steady play mates now.

With one I knew I was a temp until he found a girl more his type. I was actually too submissive for him. The second just disapeared on me so I don't know what happend there. And number three is brand new so we'll see what happens with that. This third guy is the only one out of the three that has expected some what of a comitment to him. Which seems interesting to me, but with as clingy as I am it makes me feel a bit more secure knowing that I will at least get some closure this time if things do happen to break up for what ever reason.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Do any of the people who talk about an inability to leave also find that there's a component of you can't do it because of your commitment to self/commitment to who you are and what you've gotten into?

I don't ID as sub, but I definitely do feel rooted to the spot by saying I'm in it, saying "I am doing this."

I found that when bottoming, this is what made me really push into outlandish situations at times, this sense of seeing it through.

However I might have to adapt, however much I might have to change my notion of what I want - I am a slave to the relationship and to my own sense of commitment and investment, if not the man. I'm not minimizing the power the D has over you in this sense, just wondering to what degree your sense of self and self image also feeds into this.

I think for myself this is a big part of it. We are both people who put a lot of value in not idly promising something without being conscious of what you are promising up front, and also in keeping our word in whatever way possible and barring unforeseen and extenuating circumstances which if they get in the way still leave us feeling we have failed in some way. I am still just as committed to F, but it is also the seriousness with which I entered this consensual agreement which shapes my belief I must continue to honour it.

As to his not letting me go under any circumstances and letting me know that if I wanted to attempt it he would make sure he found me and brought me back, it is not so much to do with indispensibility or irreplacability as it has to do with being owned property. If he chose to give me away, let me go, or pass me on to some other person/s for any reason, that would be his rightful choice to make....but that is not a choice I accepted as being mine if I was going to enter into a TPE relationship as a slave. It may very well be that if I did leave and he found me, he would do so with the sole purpose of punishing me in whatever way he chose including banishing me from his life and world.

I guess if you want to look at the reality I no longer earn money of my own, I am dependent on him for my material existence, but in terms of my function within the relationship I don't hold a position which centers around being dependent or helpless...quite the opposite. Many who know us (vanilla and those who know of the D/s elements) are surprised at how much I do in terms of all responsibilities ranging from physical labour to financial management, editing and contributing to major decisions that need to be made through voicing my opinion with reasons why I think that way. Those, and the things in between including cooking and cleaning, and SM, are all reasons why I exist as his slave. LOL, he did have a sub before who couldn't even cook dinner, and he wasn't about to make that mistake again...in taking me as his slave, he has someone who can deal with anything he requires, even when I still don't speak the language!!

Catalina

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I absolutely agree with you 100%. The mind does come first, and people don't understand how that works sometimes. In fact, the fact that the mind comes first explains how I can walk out of my Daddy's home at the end of a weekend, and yet still be unable to leave, to end the relationship. My mind - the power Daddy holds over me - those are what keep me from ending the relationship, not the fact that I am incapable of walking out the door. (And actually, it has been outlined to me very clearly that if I attempted to run away, or hide, or break the relationship...I would also be found. And I know it's true.)

Thank you for answering my question and explaining it a little further. I really appreciate it.

see, this is what i don't get. the whole 'if you leave, i'll find and you'll you pay' i understand the emotional, "not wanting to leave" but to not be ABLE to leave because He will hunt you down and possibly kill you...just seems way out there to me......

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I don't mean to be offensive to anyone but I must say that the whole, I'll track you down if you leave thing is really not okay for me. I clearly don't have the slave mentality. If that is part of it. To me that isn't part of a consensual relationship.

I'd absolutely hate not knowing how to drive or get along in the world. These are not things I'd want in my life. When I hear stuff like that it seriously worries me for the mental health and physical safety of that person.

However the whole, I could leave physically but I can't leave emotionally thing totally makes sense to me. If that's not two sided then we have a relationship in which the commitment doesn't flow both ways.

Fury

exactly what i was trying to say..only you say it so much better

 

[Etoile]

see, this is what i don't get. the whole 'if you leave, i'll find and you'll you pay' i understand the emotional, "not wanting to leave" but to not be ABLE to leave because He will hunt you down and possibly kill you...just seems way out there to me......

I never said e would hunt me down and kill me. I'm sorry if you got that impression. E would find me and bring me back to em, which is a very different thing. (And may not be what osg is referring to.)

And you know what? I would be okay with that. Because I know how eir mind works, and I know how my mind works. It's an appropriate dynamic for us - I could very easily think I want to leave without having thought it through. Like I said, I've even done that before. So it's entirely appropriate that e would find me, bring me back, and make me think. That's what it's about.

 

[lostsavage]

I voted the Sub has the power, since they are the one who gave it. They hold the power but the D has to be the creative one. The D has to make sure to keep the s in line and know how far their s can go. A good D will be able to walk the line of being kind and benevolent, and strong and demanding. This takes creativity and keen insight, but the power is all in the sub.

lost

 

[frappy]

Define "the power", please?

I think many of us, if not most have a different definition of what "the power" actually is.