Why antisemitism?

[BrightShinyGirl]

Eradication of Israel is NOT eradication of the Jews. One can love the Jews and hate Zionism.

There is one Jewish state in the world. There are dozens of Muslim states. Calling for Israel to be replaced by another Muslim state is definitely antisemitic.

 

[Politruk]

There is one Jewish state in the world. There are dozens of Muslim states. Calling for Israel to be replaced by another Muslim state is definitely antisemitic.

Calling for a one-state solution is not calling for Israel to be replaced by a Muslim state.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

That ship has sailed, and it sailed (in the case of both Israel and India/Pakistan) a long time ago.

Israel is never, ever, ever going to accept 5 million Palestinian Arab Muslims from Gaza and the West Bank into a greater nation. That's never going to happen, and it's ridiculous fantasy to contemplate it. No country in history has ever done anything like that or ever would do it. The Arab population is growing faster than the Jewish population, so before long it would be an Arab/Muslim majority state, especially because the Arab/Muslims would undoubtedly encourage immigration of more Arab/Muslims to ensure obtaining a majority. Hamas doesn't want freedom and democracy; it wants a Muslim theocracy. Would what you recommend come to pass, freedom and democracy would be extinguished in the Middle East. The Jews would be at risk of extermination.

This is nutty thinking. It's never going to happen. It's foolish to make demands on Israel that no country in world history would ever accede to.

The is exactly what happened in Lebanon. Lebanon was created to be a Christian enclave. Over the past few decades Muslim extremists have turned it into a base from where they can attack Israel, riding roughshod over the Lebanese people.

 

[Politruk]

Lebanon was created to be a Christian enclave.

One more thing that should never have happened or even been considered.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

One more thing that should never have happened or even been considered.

Islamic states don’t respect the rights of religious minorities. That’s why Lebanon and Israel were created.

 

[SimonDoom]

Calling for a one-state solution is not calling for Israel to be replaced by a Muslim state.

As a practical matter, yes it is. The leadership of Gaza wants a Muslim state. The Muslim population eventually would exceed the Jewish population, and you could kiss freedom, democracy, pluralism, and tolerance for the Jewish minority goodbye. Every Jew in that state would live in fear. There's no sound reason to believe otherwise.

 

[Politruk]

As a practical matter, yes it is. The leadership of Gaza wants a Muslim state. The Muslim population eventually would exceed the Jewish population, and you could kiss freedom, democracy, pluralism, and tolerance for the Jewish minority goodbye. Every Jew in that state would live in fear. There's no sound reason to believe otherwise.

If the Pals are enfranchised, Israel will be a pluralistic rule-of-law democracy with a Muslim minority.

It's not going to become any less of one because demographic factors gradually make Muslims a majority.

 

[SimonDoom]

If the Pals are enfranchised, Israel will be a pluralistic rule-of-law democracy with a Muslim minority.

It's not going to become any less of one because demographic factors gradually make Muslims a majority.

There's no reason to have any confidence in that. Look at Lebanon, as BrightShinyGirl says.

It's nonsensical to think the Israelis would put up with dissolving their state which is 8 million Jew/2 million mostly Muslim and subsuming it in a state that's 8 million Jews and 7 million (and soon to be much more) Muslims. That's not serious thinking. No rational Israeli Jew would tolerate that. Based on what we've seen in the Middle East and in Europe, the Muslims would grow their population and agitate for a Muslim state that punished non-Muslim thinking. That's history and current reality.

It's sheer fantasy to imagine that the Israeli Jews would allow that to happen. I wouldn't. Nobody would in their shoes.

 

[Politruk]

Only, they've put a distinctly American twist on it -- they blame Jews for the existence and the success of the black civil rights movement.

Why would Jews want to do that?

Because they want to encourage race-mixing -- because a mixed-race population is stupider than a white population, and therefore easier for the Jews to control.

Have I got all this right?

Does anybody have an opinion on this?

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Does anybody have an opinion on this?

Jews were prominent in the the fight for African American rights because as an oppressed people ourselves, most Jews are committed to fighting against the oppression of others. That message is at the heart of every Passover Seder: Once we were slaves, but now we're free. We should use what privilege we have to free others from their chains of bondage. Fighting for justice in a broken world is a mitzvot.

 

[Philthy_Phil]

 

[Politruk]

Jews were prominent in the the fight for African American rights because as an oppressed people ourselves, most Jews are committed to fighting against the oppression of others. That message is at the heart of every Passover Seder: Once we were slaves, but now we're free. We should use what privilege we have to free others from their chains of bondage. Fighting for justice in a broken world is a mitzvot.

That makes sense. But a more interesting -- and urgent -- question is why the white nationalists see Jews' role in the whole thing so differently.

It is tempting to dismiss the WNs as so marginal in America that they are politically and culturally irrelevant. But they keep demonstrating that is an error. The 2016 election was so close that Trump probably could not have been elected without the WNs -- they do matter, and that means their antisemitism matters, and it is important to understand it.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

That makes sense. But a more interesting -- and urgent -- question is why the white nationalists see Jews' role in the whole thing so differently.

It is tempting to dismiss the WNs as so marginal in America that they are politically and culturally irrelevant. But they keep demonstrating that is an error. The 2016 election was so close that Trump probably could not have been elected without the WNs -- they do matter, and that means their antisemitism matters, and it is important to understand it.

Jews are the universal scapegoat. If you think black people are bad, Jews must have a nefarious reason for supporting civil rights.

If you think capitalism is bad, Jews are sinister moneymen who pull the strings of the world’s economy.

If you think colonialism is bad, Jews are cruel invaders who are brutally oppressing the Palestinian people.

If you’re a Christian or a Muslim, Jews are the worst kind of infidel. They reject your religion even though they know the scripture inside and out. They’re pure wickedness.

If you think religion is bad, Jews are the deluded source of all that Abrahamic nonsense.

Whatever your pet cause you can make up a story about how the Jews are bad to make you feel self-righteous about hating them.

And if a Jew complains, you can accuse them of “playing the victim”.

This is why the state of Israel is so important to Jews. History has shown us that when we depend upon the kindness of goyim, eventually they’ll decide the solution to their problems is “kill the Jews”.

 

[Politruk]

There is one Jewish state in the world.

There are two: Israel and New York.

 

[deckardB26354]

Jews are the universal scapegoat. If you think black people are bad, Jews must have a nefarious reason for supporting civil rights.

If you think capitalism is bad, Jews are sinister moneymen who pull the strings of the world’s economy.

If you think colonialism is bad, Jews are cruel invaders who are brutally oppressing the Palestinian people.

If you’re a Christian or a Muslim, Jews are the worst kind of infidel. They reject your religion even though they know the scripture inside and out. They’re pure wickedness.

If you think religion is bad, Jews are the deluded source of all that Abrahamic nonsense.

Whatever your pet cause you can make up a story about how the Jews are bad to make you feel self-righteous about hating them.

And if a Jew complains, you can accuse them of “playing the victim”.

This is why the state of Israel is so important to Jews. History has shown us that when we depend upon the kindness of goyim, eventually they’ll decide the solution to their problems is “kill the Jews”.

You forgot to close your tag, here ya go: </sarcasm>

j/k

Maybe you can answer something for me, BSG—and I’m completely serious here. Since I was young, I’ve always noticed the hatred people have for the Jews. In things like films and TV shows that I watched as a kid, there was always some sort of conflict that pointed against the Jews. As a child, I always wondered why. I could track hatred for people of color because history pointed me to slavery and the abuse that they had to endure even after it was stopped in the US. As I tried to research Jewish hatred and anti-Semitism around the world I usually found my way to some of the things you mentioned here, but there was never much of a backstory about why those views came to be.

So why, over centuries, are the Jews so hated by so many different ethnic groups? Does it point back to the tired old, “the Jews killed Jesus!” bullshit—that has, I think, become to be intended as more of a joke when it’s said now? Is it simpler than that—is it just a hate that’s passed down through generations without any reason as to why? Internet searches only offer up so much and it’s not very useful. Usually it’s documenting the actions taken against the Jews, but it doesn’t really shed a light on as to why.

I remember in high school, that we watched the wonderful film, Fiddler on the Roof, and we discussed Jewish traditions as well as why the Russians drove out the Jews and some historical background on what was happening in Russia at the time. Growing up as a “Christian” and even attending a parochial school, I remember that when we were studying the plight of the Jews in Egypt we actually had a Jewish Passover meal in class—as how it was mentioned in biblical texts—as we were about to celebrate Easter. I remember that it was pretty amazing at the time to learn something like that about another culture.

But I digress…so anyway…how did this all start? Someone must have started all of this by forming that first hateful prejudice about something—what was it?

 

[Politruk]

But I digress…so anyway…how did this all start? Someone must have started all of this by forming that first hateful prejudice about something—what was it?

Probably the Middle ages.

1. Christianity was the one and only thing that bound society together from Ireland to Russia. The Jews were stubbornly outside of it. They were Other.

2. Moneylending. The Church banned usury, defined as charging any interest at all on a loan. Jews alone were exempt. And everybody hates bankers -- hates them, and suspects them.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

You forgot to close your tag, here ya go: </sarcasm>

j/k

Maybe you can answer something for me, BSG—and I’m completely serious here. Since I was young, I’ve always noticed the hatred people have for the Jews. In things like films and TV shows that I watched as a kid, there was always some sort of conflict that pointed against the Jews. As a child, I always wondered why. I could track hatred for people of color because history pointed me to slavery and the abuse that they had to endure even after it was stopped in the US. As I tried to research Jewish hatred and anti-Semitism around the world I usually found my way to some of the things you mentioned here, but there was never much of a backstory about why those views came to be.

So why, over centuries, are the Jews so hated by so many different ethnic groups? Does it point back to the tired old, “the Jews killed Jesus!” bullshit—that has, I think, become to be intended as more of a joke when it’s said now? Is it simpler than that—is it just a hate that’s passed down through generations without any reason as to why? Internet searches only offer up so much and it’s not very useful. Usually it’s documenting the actions taken against the Jews, but it doesn’t really shed a light on as to why.

I remember in high school, that we watched the wonderful film, Fiddler on the Roof, and we discussed Jewish traditions as well as why the Russians drove out the Jews and some historical background on what was happening in Russia at the time. Growing up as a “Christian” and even attending a parochial school, I remember that when we were studying the plight of the Jews in Egypt we actually had a Jewish Passover meal in class—as how it was mentioned in biblical texts—as we were about to celebrate Easter. I remember that it was pretty amazing at the time to learn something like that about another culture.

But I digress…so anyway…how did this all start? Someone must have started all of this by forming that first hateful prejudice about something—what was it?

As I said in my reply, the Christians and the Muslims have always hated the Jews because we know the foundations of their religions and still reject them. This is anathema to proselyting faiths like Christianity and Islam that sell themselves as the one true path to God. The very existence of Jews was a rebuke of their core beliefs.

Eventually antisemitism became so engrained in Europe and the Arab world that people stopped even thinking about why they despised the Jews. It just became common practice to look down on them, shun them, steal from them, or kill them. More rationalizations sprang up later so people didn't have to feel bad about hating people for no good reason.

We've seen it play out over the past year with the vilification of "Zionists".

 

[deckardB26354]

As I said in my reply, the Christians and the Muslims have always hated the Jews because we know the foundations of their religions and still reject them. This is anathema to proselyting faiths like Christianity and Islam that sell themselves as the one true path to God. The very existence of Jews was a rebuke of their core beliefs.

Eventually antisemitism became so engrained in Europe and the Arab world that people stopped even thinking about why they despised the Jews. It just became common practice to look down on them, shun them, steal from them, or kill them. More rationalizations sprang up later so people didn't have to feel bad about hating people for no good reason.

We've seen it play out over the past year with the vilification of "Zionists".

First, thanks for responding. Second, that doesn’t quite explain why the initial hatred of Jews—as you said, stemming from Christians/Muslims being butthurt for rebuking their core beliefs—devolved into all of the horrendous stereotypes that have been attached to the Jews over time.

 

[Politruk]

First, thanks for responding. Second, that doesn’t quite explain why the initial hatred of Jews—as you said, stemming from Christians/Muslims being butthurt for rebuking their core beliefs—devolved into all of the horrendous stereotypes that have been attached to the Jews over time.

That's distinctly European -- never existed in quite the same form in the Islamic world -- and mostly has its roots in Jews as moneylenders/bankers. Makes it easy to think of them as international string-pullers, manipulators, much more powerful than they appear to be, starting actual wars for their own profit.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Eradication of Israel is NOT eradication of the Jews. One can love the Jews and hate Zionism.

Anyone who has read the Old Testament and the Apocrypha, as I have in several English translations, knows that for the Jews possession of the land of Israel is as important as personal salvation is for Christians.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Christian antisemitism has fortunately faded in the West. Secular antisemitism persists. It is based on jealousy of Jewish intelligence, success, and prosperity.

 

[Politruk]

IME, the worst generalization one can honestly make about Jews is that they are sometimes annoying.

But they make up for that by being often amusing.

 

[JohnEngelman]

IME, the worst generalization one can honestly make about Jews is that they are sometimes annoying.

But they make up for that by being often amusing.

Jews annoy those who cannot compete with them.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

First, thanks for responding. Second, that doesn’t quite explain why the initial hatred of Jews—as you said, stemming from Christians/Muslims being butthurt for rebuking their core beliefs—devolved into all of the horrendous stereotypes that have been attached to the Jews over time.

As I said, antisemitism has no rational basis, so people who hate Jews start casting about for plausible justifications for their hatred. They invent conspiracies about Jews poisoning wells, kidnapping children, making matzoh with blood, controlling the weather, manipulating the world economy, being colonizers, running the slave trade, or committing genocide.

It doesn’t matter that all these reasons are specious. All that matters is they give antisemites a way to feel self-righteous about their bigotry.