Why The Holocaust Must Be Questioned

[unculbact]

from this web site: http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1281

An Interview with Holocaust survivor Laura Hillman:

Ms. Hillman: I’ve never heard of anyone calling a group which includes Jews Holocaust deniers. Once when speaking in a school a skinhead said to me that I had no proof of the Holocaust. I said to him, when you bring back my brothers and my parents, then you have proof. But until that time, I am living proof of the Holocaust. And he walked out of a crowded room of a few hundred people.

No Jews? She obviously has never met David Coleman, Gilead Atzmon or Joseph Ginzburg.

How is the reincarnation of her brothers and parents proof of a "holocaust? Did you notice that the "skinhead", if that's what he was, was right? She DIDN'T HAVE ANY PROOF! She did have a flip answer, but no proof. No wonder he walked out, if the only answer he's going to get is a non sequiter, there's no point in trying to talk to her.

It's not out of line to demand that somebody claiming to be an eyewitness present some proof of what they saw, at the very least dates, times and places that can be checked into. I've followed Hillman for some time, she's never once said that she ever witnessed any exterminations.

And her father could not have been killed in Buchenwald in 1942. Her father, like Hillman, was Jewish. Buchenwald at that time was a camp for politicals, troublemakers, common criminals, war profiteers, blackmarketers and even a few Nazi's who had fallen foul of the regime. There were no Jews in Buchenwald until near the end of the war.

Ms. Hillman: I don’t think that the Holocaust belongs in scientific debates.

I'm sure she doesn't! Too many awkward questions to answer, and her brothers and father magically reappearing won't answer all of them!

 

[woody54]

I do find it odd that EVERY one of the people you mentined in the previous pages as a historian, spokesmen, or researcher who supports your veiw is a self proclaimed anti sematic, white sepresmist, Nazi sympathiser, or bigot.

Well, of course you are right. The labels are applied by the Zionist promoters of the Holocaust myth.

By refusing to acknowledge any references to the tragedy of gassed jews in their post war classics on the conflict, Chamberlain, Eisenhower and De Gaulle
of course must also be rabid white suprmacist, nazi sypathising, bigotted haters of the worst kind too.

If you read history, do you?, you will find Holocaust was a concept that gained traction in the late fifties as Israel needed support for what was becoming its embarrassing treatment of Arabs in their ideal State.

The Holocaust was the money angle for Israel and they have wrung it out doe everything they can get. "Theres no business like Shoah business".
The concept was taken to religious heights in 1967 when it was used on the world as justification for its pre-emptive war on Egypt which resuled in a ahuge land grab to advance the Zionist plan for Greater Israel.

Any discussion on the Holocaust concept is not complete without understanding how it has been exploited by Israel to coerce over 3.5 trillion dollars from the US and Germany, notwithstanding the history making compensation paid for life to a couple of million Jews who suffered at Hitlers hands. If only other nationalities were so lucky in their suffering.

 

[Valcorie]

Death camp gas chambers were the primary means of execution used against the Jews during the Holocaust. The Nazis issued a directive implementing large-scale gas chambers in the fall of 1941 but, by then, procedures facilitating mass murder, including the utilization of smaller gas chambers, were already in practice. Before their use in death camps, gas chambers were central to Hitler's "eugenics" program. Between January 1940 and August 1941, 70,273 Germans -- most of them physically handicapped or mentally ill -- were gassed, 20-30 at a time, in hermetically shut chambers disguised as shower rooms.15

Meanwhile, mass shooting of Jews had been extensively practiced on the heels of Germany's Eastern campaign. But these actions by murder squads had become an increasingly unwieldy process by October 1941. Three directors of the genocide, Erhard Wetzel, head of the Racial-Policy Office, Alfred Rosenberg, consultant on Jewish affairs for the Occupied Eastern Territories, and Victor Brack, deputy director of the Chancellery, met at the time with Adolf Eichmann to discuss the use of gas chambers in the genocide program.16 Thereafter, two technical advisors for the euthanasia gas chambers, Kriminalkommissar Christian Wirth and a Dr. Kallmeyer, were sent to the East to begin construction of mass gas chambers.17 Physicians who had implemented the euthanasia program were also transferred.

Mobile gassing vans, using the exhaust fumes of diesel engines to kill passengers, were used to kill Jews at Chelmno and Treblinka -- as well as other sites, not all of them concentration camps -- starting in November 1941.18 At least 320,000 Chelmno prisoners, most of them Jews, were killed by this method; a total of 870,000 Jews were murdered at Treblinka using gas vans and diesel-powered gas chambers.19

Gas chambers were installed and operated at Belzec, Lublin, Sobibor, Majdanek and Auschwitz-Birkenau from September 3, 1941, when the first experimental gassing of a group of Soviet prisoners-of-war took place at Auschwitz, until November 1944.20 Working with chambers measuring an average 225 square feet, the Nazis forced to their deaths 700 to 800 men, women and children at a time.21 Two-thirds of this program was completed in 1943-44, and at its height it accounted for as many as 20,000 victims per day.22 Authorities have estimated that these gas chambers accounted for the deaths of approximately 2½ to 3 million Jews.


Holocaust-denial attacks on this record of mass murder intensified following the end of the Cold War when it was reported that the memorial at Auschwitz was changed in 1991 to read that 1 million had died there, instead of 4 million as previously recorded. For Holocaust deniers, this change appeared to confirm arguments that historical estimates of Holocaust deaths had been deliberately exaggerated, and that scholars were beginning to "retreat" in the face of "revisionist" assertions. Thus, for example, Willis Carto wrote in the February 6, 1995, issue of The Spotlight, the weekly tabloid of his organization, Liberty Lobby, that "All 'experts' until 1991 claimed that 4 million Jews were killed at Auschwitz. This impossible figure was reduced in 1991. . . to I.I million. . . . The facts about deaths at Auschwitz, however. . , are still wrong. The Germans kept detailed records of Auschwitz deaths. . . These show that no more than 120,000 persons of all religions and ethnicity died at Auschwitz during the war. . . ."

In fact, Western scholars have never supported the figure of 4 million deaths at Auschwitz; the basis of this Soviet estimate — an analysis of the capacity of crematoria at Auschwitz and Birkenau — has long been discredited. As early as 1952, Gerald Reitlinger, a British historian, had convincingly challenged this method of calculation. Using statistics compiled in registers for Himmler, he asserted that approximately 1 million people had died at Auschwitz; Raul Hilberg in 1961, and Yehuda Bauer In 1989, confirmed Reitlinger's estimate of Auschwitz victims. Each of these scholars, nonetheless, has recognized that nearly 6 million Jews were killed overall during the Holocaust.23 Polish authorities were therefore responding to long-accepted Western scholarship, further confirmed subsequently by documents released in post-Soviet Russia; the cynical allegations of "Holocaust revisionism" played no part in their decision.

 

[Valcorie]

Well, of course you are right

.

I think this is the smartest thing i have heard here.

 

[woody54]

You'ld LOVE to see 'em nuked wouldnt you Woodrow. That would be sweet justice for you! Then you could set your eyes on kicking them out of New York.

What are you on about?

I dont promote the nuking of anyone.

Truth and fair justice for all goes a long way to satisfying me.

Who is they in New York.

If it is anything to do with the curse of the Neocons, they need to be driven out back to Israel where they can live their idealised existence.

 

[ImpWizard]

The biggest arguement that deniers and revisionist use is arguing about the burden of proof. The mainstream opinions of the hollocaust actualy occuring IS support by a mountain of evidence. BUT, people such as yourself keep hiding behind descredited theories, and irrational argumentation. YOU DO HAVE A BURDEN OF PROOF!

The mountain of evidence isn't there.

A striking but rarely discussed fact about Holocaust historiography is that it's key documents are all of unproven authenticity. Most of the documents academic Holocaust historians have taken to citing are, in fact, no more than mere transcriptions. By far the majority appeared for the first time during the Nuremberg trials, and were prepared for the court by the Documentation Division of the Office of the U.S. Chief of Counsel (OCC) in Paris, an organization that subsumed the OSS's Evidence Collection and Analysis Section in London. In other words, many or most of the documents used in the Nuremberg trials originated with the OSS, the wartime precursor of the CIA.

It is assumed according to the dogma of the Holocaust that the Nazis destroyed their vast death machinery so thoroughly as to preclude all possibility of postwar detection. It is not permissible to express doubts as to whether the Nazis could really have eliminated all material evidence so completely, including making the ashes of six million people vanish from the locations at which they must have been interred. To think such doubts is to engage in thought crime; and to verbalize the doubts, hate crime.

It is therefore more acceptable for academic historians today to assume that the Nazis had magical powers - that is, the ability to make material evidence disappear beyond hope of recovery, even by means of the most sophisticated modern technology.

Given the non-existence of material evidence, documentary evidence is obviously critical to reasoned belief in the Holocaust. While the majority of the public seems happy to accept eyewitness testimonies as a sufficient basis for their exterminationist beliefs, for scholars "the faintest ink is usually a more reliable foundation for historical analysis than the strongest memory."(John Costello, Mask of Treachery, Pan Books, 1989, p. xvii.)

Few professional historians can be unaware that original documents and only original documents qualify as evidence. Without access to the original of the document it professes to transcribe, there is no way for an historian to tell whether a given transcription is accurate. Transcriptions may conceal interpolations and excisions, while translations can involve interpolations, excisions, misleading translations and even the fabrication of entire passages. Many Holocaust documents can legitimately be suspected of being wholesale fabrications.

However, the Hague has few original documents, and perhaps none at all as when asked, they can not produce any. The Hague has many original postwar "affidavits," or sworn statements, the Tribunal Commission transcripts, and much valuable defense material. They have the "human soap," which has never been thas long been known to be a forgery; but apparently no original wartime German documents. The National Archives in Washington claim that the original documents are in The Hague. The Hague claims the original documents are in the National Archives. The Stadtsarchiv Nurnberg and the Bundesarchiv Koblenz also have no original documents, and both say the original documents are in Washington. Since the originals are mostly just "copies," there is often no proof that real and original wartime German documents in question ever existed.

Given the fact that an extremely large proportion of the total corpus of Nazi documents remains inaccessible to historians even today - indeed, historians have probably never had access to more than a small sample of the documents captured by the Allies in the closing stages of the war - we can safely assume that most original documents that would resolve questions concerning the Holocaust are destined never to be made public. Many may even have been destroyed in order to ensure the enduring success of the hoax.

Another potential problem was the appearance of individuals associated with the Nazi regime who would have had the potential of exposing the OSS/OCC documents as fabrications. The need to prevent this from happening would explain why, starting in May 1945 with the alleged suicides of SS-General Hans-Adolf Prützmann, SS head Heinrich Himmler and SS-General Odilo Globocnik while in British captivity, there followed a bizarre string of murders of individuals associated with the Auschwitz concentration camp. (These were perpetrated by a Jewish hit squad known as the DIN.) As Joseph Bellinger, author of a new book on Himmler's murder, points out, within six months or so of the war's end practically any one who could have shed light on the Jewish policy of the Third Reich was murdered!’ This, it must be said, was extremely convenient for the prosecution at Nuremberg.

In the rush to impute to the Nazis a programme for the extermination of millions of people which has implausibly left no material traces, all the normal rules of historiography seem not only to have been suspended, but to have been violated over and over again. Historians routinely cite documents from secondary works like Raul Hilberg's The Destruction of the European Jews (1961) or from printed collections of documents, such as Robert Wolfe's Holocaust: The Documentary Evidence - but they never cite original documents.

You would think that the numerous websites that have proliferated in recent years aimed at refuting revisionism would be bristling with scanned images of original documents, which would make mincemeat of the doubting Thomases, Yet every such website of which that I know of - and every book which has been promoted, follows the same agenda - aiming to persuade belief by means of mere transcriptions.

As to proper academic peer review, you didn't think it exists in any meaningful sense in Holocaust studies, did you? How could it, in such an atmosphere of intimidation and persecution?

I've read a common tactic is harassing phone calls, both at work and home, and attempts to get the victim fired from their job and denied employment. Some go as far as making frequent death-threats, calling up friends and family members and otherwise making their victim's lives a misery. Historians who have questioned the dogma have been beaten nearly to death, jailed, and sometimes died.

Death camp gas chambers were the primary means of execution used against the Jews during the Holocaust. The Nazis issued a directive implementing large-scale gas chambers in the fall of 1941 ...

and all those claims without a single REAL ORIGINAL wartime German document or mass grave filled with thousands of cyanide-gassed bodies, or even some ashes that can be DNA checked, to back it up (oh yes, the ashes can be DNA checked with modern techniques)

 

[woody54]

I think this is the smartest thing i have heard here.

You just want everyone to agree with your mythology and deny reality.

Is that how smart you are?

 

[woody54]

Death camp gas chambers were the primary means of execution used against the Jews during the Holocaust. The Nazis issued a directive implementing large-scale gas chambers in the fall of 1941 but, by then, procedures facilitating mass murder, including the utilization of smaller gas chambers, were already in practice. Before their use in death camps, gas chambers were central to Hitler's "eugenics" program. Between January 1940 and August 1941, 70,273 Germans -- most of them physically handicapped or mentally ill -- were gassed, 20-30 at a time, in hermetically shut chambers disguised as shower rooms.15

Meanwhile, mass shooting of Jews had been extensively practiced on the heels of Germany's Eastern campaign. But these actions by murder squads had become an increasingly unwieldy process by October 1941. Three directors of the genocide, Erhard Wetzel, head of the Racial-Policy Office, Alfred Rosenberg, consultant on Jewish affairs for the Occupied Eastern Territories, and Victor Brack, deputy director of the Chancellery, met at the time with Adolf Eichmann to discuss the use of gas chambers in the genocide program.16 Thereafter, two technical advisors for the euthanasia gas chambers, Kriminalkommissar Christian Wirth and a Dr. Kallmeyer, were sent to the East to begin construction of mass gas chambers.17 Physicians who had implemented the euthanasia program were also transferred.

Mobile gassing vans, using the exhaust fumes of diesel engines to kill passengers, were used to kill Jews at Chelmno and Treblinka -- as well as other sites, not all of them concentration camps -- starting in November 1941.18 At least 320,000 Chelmno prisoners, most of them Jews, were killed by this method; a total of 870,000 Jews were murdered at Treblinka using gas vans and diesel-powered gas chambers.19

Gas chambers were installed and operated at Belzec, Lublin, Sobibor, Majdanek and Auschwitz-Birkenau from September 3, 1941, when the first experimental gassing of a group of Soviet prisoners-of-war took place at Auschwitz, until November 1944.20 Working with chambers measuring an average 225 square feet, the Nazis forced to their deaths 700 to 800 men, women and children at a time.21 Two-thirds of this program was completed in 1943-44, and at its height it accounted for as many as 20,000 victims per day.22 Authorities have estimated that these gas chambers accounted for the deaths of approximately 2½ to 3 million Jews.


Holocaust-denial attacks on this record of mass murder intensified following the end of the Cold War when it was reported that the memorial at Auschwitz was changed in 1991 to read that 1 million had died there, instead of 4 million as previously recorded. For Holocaust deniers, this change appeared to confirm arguments that historical estimates of Holocaust deaths had been deliberately exaggerated, and that scholars were beginning to "retreat" in the face of "revisionist" assertions. Thus, for example, Willis Carto wrote in the February 6, 1995, issue of The Spotlight, the weekly tabloid of his organization, Liberty Lobby, that "All 'experts' until 1991 claimed that 4 million Jews were killed at Auschwitz. This impossible figure was reduced in 1991. . . to I.I million. . . . The facts about deaths at Auschwitz, however. . , are still wrong. The Germans kept detailed records of Auschwitz deaths. . . These show that no more than 120,000 persons of all religions and ethnicity died at Auschwitz during the war. . . ."

In fact, Western scholars have never supported the figure of 4 million deaths at Auschwitz; the basis of this Soviet estimate — an analysis of the capacity of crematoria at Auschwitz and Birkenau — has long been discredited. As early as 1952, Gerald Reitlinger, a British historian, had convincingly challenged this method of calculation. Using statistics compiled in registers for Himmler, he asserted that approximately 1 million people had died at Auschwitz; Raul Hilberg in 1961, and Yehuda Bauer In 1989, confirmed Reitlinger's estimate of Auschwitz victims. Each of these scholars, nonetheless, has recognized that nearly 6 million Jews were killed overall during the Holocaust.23 Polish authorities were therefore responding to long-accepted Western scholarship, further confirmed subsequently by documents released in post-Soviet Russia; the cynical allegations of "Holocaust revisionism" played no part in their decision.

Holy hell, why didnt you get called to witness against Zundel?

You could have changed history.

 

[unculbact]

Zundel was convicted on February 26, 1985 of publishing false news about the Holocaust. He was sentenced to fifteen months in jail, and three years probation, during which he was prohibited from publishing on the subject. Zundel did not serve his sentence. In January 1987, the Ontario Court of Appeals overturned the 1985 conviction, citing procedural errors during the trial.

EVEN HE COULDN"T PROVE IT!


http://www.adl.org/holocaust/zundel.asp

That's not true. On appeal, the law was struck down as unconstitutional. Here's one of dozens of references.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Party_of_Ontario

Zündel was convicted at trial, but the conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court of Canada: that court held that a law against the publication of false news violates the freedom of expression guaranteed by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms

Do you have any idea how rare it is that any individual in any Western country ever wins a constitutional case? This is one hell of an achievement!

Ernst Zundel is a certifiable kook, but I've got to hand it to him. With that one trial, he struck the most powerful blow for civil rights and freedom of speech that the Western world had seen in 30 years, since the passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1964.

AND - it was at his trial that Rudolf Vrba was forced to admit that he had lied, and had seen nothing during his time at Auschwitz.

 

[woody54]

Originally Posted by Valcorie
Death camp gas chambers were the primary means of execution used against the Jews during the Holocaust. The Nazis issued a directive implementing large-scale gas chambers in the fall of 1941 ...

and all those claims without a single REAL ORIGINAL wartime German document or mass grave filled with thousands of cyanide-gassed bodies, or even some ashes that can be DNA checked, to back it up (oh yes, the ashes can be DNA checked with modern techniques)

Funnily enough , the one document we do have that is central to the Final Solution only talks about transferring jews out of Germany and working them as assets of the State for the good of the Reich and this was 1942. Not an inference of extermination, but the creation of a slave labour force for the war effort after the Zionists had cut off all practical means to force Jews out of the German controlled zone.

The demograhic consisentcy of Europes pre and post war Jewish population is the biggest glitch in the "6 million died" story.

The practical limitation of disposing of the reputedly gassed 6 million in an industrialised way in the way the myth suggests is also highly questionable. Why is it that before and after that era, the old bullet in the head scheme has proven most efficient and the Germans were kings of efficient. were they not?
According to Nuremburg, Jews were also electrocuted, drowned, steamed and brain crushed in machines, all without a shred of physical evidence either.
The gassing theory was the only method to retain traction because the Germans did gas stuff at the camps, lice. There is reliable evidence of that. It just goes crazily screwy when the concept is extended to human disposal.

 

[unculbact]

Thereafter, two technical advisors for the euthanasia gas chambers, Kriminalkommissar Christian Wirth...

Whereever you got this from, the guy is lying. Christian Wirth spent his entire life as a policeman, and was never a technical expert on anything.

Gas chambers were installed and operated at Belzec, Lublin, Sobibor, Majdanek

Again, whoever wrote this didn't bother to do five minutes of research. Majdanek is IN Lublin. And even a believer like Jean-Claude Pressac had to laugh at the ridiculous farce of what they present as gas chambers there.

Mobile gassing vans, using the exhaust fumes of diesel engines to kill passengers, were used to kill Jews at Chelmno and Treblinka -- as well as other sites, not all of them concentration camps -- starting in November 1941.18 At least 320,000 Chelmno prisoners, most of them Jews, were killed by this method; a total of 870,000 Jews were murdered at Treblinka using gas vans and diesel-powered gas chambers.19

This is where the whole story falls apart. Of the five alleged extermination camps -remember, Majdanek is off the list now - four of them, Chelmno, Sobibor, Treblinka and Belzec, the Operation Reinhardt camps, supposedly used diesal exhaust as the killing agent.

The trouble with that? Diesel exhaust isn't poisonous.

Here’s the 1957 British Industrial Medicine study using live animals exposed to diesel exhaust. Unlike spark-ignition engines, diesel exhaust contains almost no carbon monoxide, and is so safe, you can run a diesel in a coal mine.

R.E. PRATTLE, Et al: THE TOXICITY OF FUMES FROM DIESEL ENGINES UNDER FOUR DIFFERENT RUNNING CONDITIONS (1957)

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/FPB/ToxDiesel.html

Under normal operating conditions, they couldn't kill a laboratory mouse with it. FINALLY, by practically tearing the engine apart and running it at a ridiculous profile, they were able to kill the mice, the rats, and the rabbits. BUT IT TOOK THEM THREE HOURS AND FORTY-FIVE MINUTES!

That's highly technical and thick, this is a a little easier to read, and it references that study. You might want to skip directly to Chapter 7, that's where he addresses diesel toxicity.

Diesel Gas Chambers Ideal for Torture — Absurd for Murder
by Friedrich Paul Berg

http://www.nazigassings.com/dieselgaschambera.html

 

[ImpWizard]

Whereever you got this from, the guy is lying. Christian Wirth spent his entire life as a policeman, and was never a technical expert on anything.

Again, whoever wrote this didn't bother to do five minutes of research. Majdanek is IN Lublin. And even a believer like Jean-Claude Pressac had to laugh at the ridiculous farce of what they present as gas chambers there.

This is where the whole story falls apart. Of the five alleged extermination camps -remember, Majdanek is off the list now - four of them, Chelmno, Sobibor, Treblinka and Belzec, the Operation Reinhardt camps, supposedly used diesal exhaust as the killing agent.

The trouble with that? Diesel exhaust isn't poisonous.

Here’s the 1957 British Industrial Medicine study using live animals exposed to diesel exhaust. Unlike spark-ignition engines, diesel exhaust contains almost no carbon monoxide, and is so safe, you can run a diesel in a coal mine.

R.E. PRATTLE, Et al: THE TOXICITY OF FUMES FROM DIESEL ENGINES UNDER FOUR DIFFERENT RUNNING CONDITIONS (1957)

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/FPB/ToxDiesel.html

Under normal operating conditions, they couldn't kill a laboratory mouse with it. FINALLY, by practically tearing the engine apart and running it at a ridiculous profile, they were able to kill the mice, the rats, and the rabbits. BUT IT TOOK THEM THREE HOURS AND FORTY-FIVE MINUTES!

That's highly technical and thick, this is a a little easier to read, and it references that study. You might want to skip directly to Chapter 7, that's where he addresses diesel toxicity.

Diesel Gas Chambers Ideal for Torture — Absurd for Murder
by Friedrich Paul Berg

http://www.nazigassings.com/dieselgaschambera.html

I'm just waiting to see some fool quote the Nizkor lies about this.

 

[woody54]

I'm just waiting to see some fool quote the Nizkor lies about this.

Valcorie's rose coloured glasses have been somewhat fugged up today so tomorrow we will need a new believer to question the Holocaust with.

Any volunteers??

 

[magnacum]

With an IQ the same as your shoe size, you dont display any critical thinking powers, whether the information you have been presented is right or wrong.

For you, what you know is unimpeachable truths. making you a sucker for lying propaganda...... now where has that been exploited more recently?

You agree with someone whose name and avatar glorify the KKK then question someone else's IQ? You sure are a funny person.

 

[Lovelynice]

You agree with someone whose name and avatar glorify the KKK then question someone else's IQ? You sure are a funny person.

Weirdly ignorant of fantasy roleplaying games aren't you?

An Imp is a mischievous little creature, a Wizard is a wiseman/magician, and the picture he uses looks like one from one of the Baldur's Gate series of PC roleplaying games. In other words, you're a dope.

What about your silly username? magnacum? What's that supposed to be? the crusty stuff that sticks on your mouth after a night of blowing your bumbuddy after he's given you a fun time up the ass?

Yes, I may be lovely, but I'm not always nice.

 

[Lovelynice]

Whereever you got this from, the guy is lying. Christian Wirth spent his entire life as a policeman, and was never a technical expert on anything.



Again, whoever wrote this didn't bother to do five minutes of research. Majdanek is IN Lublin. And even a believer like Jean-Claude Pressac had to laugh at the ridiculous farce of what they present as gas chambers there.



This is where the whole story falls apart. Of the five alleged extermination camps -remember, Majdanek is off the list now - four of them, Chelmno, Sobibor, Treblinka and Belzec, the Operation Reinhardt camps, supposedly used diesal exhaust as the killing agent.

The trouble with that? Diesel exhaust isn't poisonous.

Here’s the 1957 British Industrial Medicine study using live animals exposed to diesel exhaust. Unlike spark-ignition engines, diesel exhaust contains almost no carbon monoxide, and is so safe, you can run a diesel in a coal mine.

R.E. PRATTLE, Et al: THE TOXICITY OF FUMES FROM DIESEL ENGINES UNDER FOUR DIFFERENT RUNNING CONDITIONS (1957)

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/FPB/ToxDiesel.html

Under normal operating conditions, they couldn't kill a laboratory mouse with it. FINALLY, by practically tearing the engine apart and running it at a ridiculous profile, they were able to kill the mice, the rats, and the rabbits. BUT IT TOOK THEM THREE HOURS AND FORTY-FIVE MINUTES!

That's highly technical and thick, this is a a little easier to read, and it references that study. You might want to skip directly to Chapter 7, that's where he addresses diesel toxicity.

Diesel Gas Chambers Ideal for Torture — Absurd for Murder
by Friedrich Paul Berg

http://www.nazigassings.com/dieselgaschambera.html

I found a similar report into the use of Diesel Engine exhaust, and it makes fairly obvious that it would be very difficult and time-consuming to kill anyone by this method.


Review of effectiveness, environmental impact, humaneness and feasibility of lethal methods for badger control A report to European Wildlife Division, Defra 20 October 2005

Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Nobel House 17 Smith Square London SW1P 3JR Telephone 020 7238 6000 Website: www.defra.gov.uk

Relevant excerpts;

p5. "It is concluded that diesel engines are not suitable for the production of CO as insufficient CO is generated"

p28 "In one experiment where mice, guinea pigs and rabbits were exposed to diesel fumes, no behavioural effects were observed apart from lethargy in mice (Pattle et al., 1957). At post mortem pulmonary congestion, oedema, consolidation and emphysema were found in all animals, including those that survived the exposure. Death in rabbits only occurred after at least 7 hours exposure and was attributed to NOx as well as CO toxicity. In a final test the air intake was obstructed to simulate a badly tuned diesel engine. The resulting exhaust fumes were very dense and white, and also caused intense pain to the eye of a human observer within a few seconds. No other behavioural effects were observed though death occurred between 3 hours 20 minutes and 4 hours 35 minutes after initial exposure."

p30 "Diesel engines are far less efficient than petrol engines at producing CO. The greatest concentration of CO that has been measured in diesel exhaust is 0.2% CO (Lindgren & Hansson,2004). In one experiment where mice, guinea pigs and rabbits were exposed to diesel engine exhaust gases, rabbits did not die after five hours exposure..."

p32 "The diesel engine never reached the lethal concentration at any point and is therefore unsuitable for fumigation."

p36 "8) It is concluded that diesel engines are not suitable for the production of CO as insufficient CO is generated to be widely applicable and irritant pollutants are present in the exhaust gases."

((You could say it's great for torture, but it would take HOURS to kill anyone))

Final conclusions of the DEFRA report;
p68 "1) It is recommended that the following approaches are not given further consideration:
e) Carbon monoxide generated by diesel engine - less humane than other potential fumigants (4.5.1) and UNFEASIBLE (4.5.3)"

As a guy on another site commented, "Don't bother with the Diesel. People would die faster with suffocation".

It makes the claims of "Diesel-gassings", "gas-vans" , and "Diesel Gas Chambers" blatantly ridiculous.

 

[Guest]

 

[BlueEyesInLevis]

You are such a fake.
You dont even know how to watch the video, do you?
Good God, no wonder you are so fucking blind.
The explosions were never a conspiracy , dickhead.

They are a matter of public record.
Your denying them IS a conspiracy, wingnut sychophant.

We ALL have seen the videos, and none of us know what the fuck you are talking about. I guess in your sad little hate filled world we are ALL blind, all of us, but the anointedly sighted such as you and the others who can "see".

So, be patient with us blind folks and take your time and explain just what you believe you know about this 9/11 "conspiracy".

 

[BlueEyesInLevis]

What are you on about?

I dont promote the nuking of anyone.

Truth and fair justice for all goes a long way to satisfying me.

Who is they in New York.

If it is anything to do with the curse of the Neocons, they need to be driven out back to Israel where they can live their idealised existence.

Are you saying "Neocons" are Jews?

 

[BlueEyesInLevis]

I found a similar report into the use of Diesel Engine exhaust, and it makes fairly obvious that it would be very difficult and time-consuming to kill anyone by this method.

Yes, thats what the Germans discovered too. Thats why the changed to the gas chambers.

Lovelynice, do you REALLY want to join this group of hatemongers?

 

[manamus]

incongruent

adjective

1. Made up of parts or qualities that are disparate or otherwise markedly lacking in consistency: discordant, discrepant, dissonant, incompatible, incongruous, inconsistent. See agree/disagree.
2. In sharp opposition: discrepant, incompatible, incongruous, inconsistent. Logic repugnant. See agree/disagree.

"Don't try to act hardcore with the keyboard.
Fighting online is like racing in the special olympics;
even if you win, you're still retarded."
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Originally Posted by Valcorie
The biggest arguement that deniers and revisionist use is arguing about the burden of proof. The mainstream opinions of the hollocaust actualy occuring IS support by a mountain of evidence. BUT, people such as yourself keep hiding behind descredited theories, and irrational argumentation. YOU DO HAVE A BURDEN OF PROOF!

The above are in post by Valcorie. Not the definition at the top of the post but underneath her post she has this, I guess you would call it a signature, words of wisdom thing. In her post she refers to (PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF KEEP HIDING.....) To make a statement shows her/him, to be incongruent with what she says in her sig. She talks about not causing internet fights then she does just the opposite with her remarks. She is making the other poster different from herself, in a negative way.

Lovelynice you keep on posting as you have done. It seems that another poster has made remarks about you being a nastie because you only want to be objective.

I have often found that those that defend the holocaust usually resort to this sort of tactic. I think they do protest too much, meaning they are trying to defend a lost cause.
See I used a quote. Shakesphere from McBeth..well paraphrased.

 

[unculbact]

I found a similar report into the use of Diesel Engine exhaust, and it makes fairly obvious that it would be very difficult and time-consuming to kill anyone by this method.


Review of effectiveness, environmental impact, humaneness and feasibility of lethal methods for badger control A report to European Wildlife Division, Defra 20 October 2005

Yeah, I heard about this. They were going to pump diesel exhaust down badger holes. Dumb not just because diesel exhaust isn't toxic...you can only pump any engine exhaust so far. It cools down quickly, and precipitates.

In Europe, a badger is also known as a dachs. Dachshunds were bred to hunt them, would seem the old solution is still the best solution.

In a final test the air intake was obstructed to simulate a badly tuned diesel engine. The resulting exhaust fumes were very dense and white, and also caused intense pain to the eye of a human observer within a few seconds.

That white mist is unburned fuel, the predictable result of overchoking an engine. Diesel fuel is usually pretty stable stuff, nonvolatile and with a high flash point. BUT, in this condition - atomized, aereated and heated, it would be dangerous. If they tried this in any gas chamber, one spark and the resulting explosion would blow the building apart.

As a guy on another site commented, "Don't bother with the Diesel. People would die faster with suffocation".

In fact, they'd suffocate faster WITHOUT the engine. Diesel engines operate with a surplus of oxygen. If there isn't a load on the engine - and how could they ever put a load on the engine, mounted on a static platform at a gas chamber? - diesel exhaust contains life supporting amounts of oxygen at up to 80 percent of full power.

Above that, the oxygen levels drop below the lethal level - BUT - if you're pumping diesel exhaust into a chamber full of people, the extra oxygen provided by the engine, while not enough to sustain life, will extend the process of suffocation. For hours. AND - you can't run a diesel engine at 100% power for hours on end. The resulting carbon particles will wear out the piston rings in just a few days, and gum up the fuel injector.

Yes, thats what the Germans discovered too. Thats why the changed to the gas chambers.]

It makes the claims of "Diesel-gassings", "gas-vans" , and "Diesel Gas Chambers" blatantly ridiculous.

Yes, Lovely, we all saw it, you were talking about the gas chambers, and BEIL didn't notice. OR the nursing home volunteer who does his reading for him didn't finish it for him. But, be of good cheer. BEIL claimed he has a graduate degree, so you can now offer hope to any other illiterates you meet in life.

As BEIL just proved, reading comprehension skills are not a necessary criteria for admission.

I'm getting the impression that the believers here are grossly ignorant about the very HolocaustTM that they're defending. None of them seem to know what the Operation Reinhardt camps supposedly were, much less that that is where the majority of the gassings are alleged to have taken place. I wonder what else they don't know about their own story.

 

[miles]

I've never seen anyone so full of bitterness and hatred as woody. What a sorry sack of shit.

 

[woody54]

We ALL have seen the videos, and none of us know what the fuck you are talking about. I guess in your sad little hate filled world we are ALL blind, all of us, but the anointedly sighted such as you and the others who can "see".

So, be patient with us blind folks and take your time and explain just what you believe you know about this 9/11 "conspiracy".

You are either a total embicile or you did not view the link I put up. As a point of interest, you will only see if you allow your eyes to stay open, and that is a personal choice, not a special right.

I like to let the real people do the talking on the explosives issue but you are obvious too peterified of the consequences of looking too deeply, you coward.

Ostrich.

 

[woody54]

Are you saying "Neocons" are Jews?

The majority of them are, even Cheney and Bush have a jewish ancestor or two just to confuse you and indicates why they all get on so well together.

If all the Jewish Neocons with double citizenship were true Zionists and lived in Israel, much of the broohaha of the Neocon era would not have happened like it did.

It is telling that Feith and Pearle wrote a co-ordinated strategy for Israel at the time the PNAC was pestering Clinton about their own strategy for America. Now whats good for Israel just happens to be the foreign policy choices of the Neocon government.