Why The Holocaust Must Be Questioned

[Lovelynice]

and, just for the record, the fact that people so catastrophically stupid that they deny the holocaust think me stupid or foolish really isn't much of a blow to my self-esteem. Heck, it validates me. So keep those insults coming!

catastrophically stupid is what you are when you can look straight at photographic evidence of the claimed deathtolls being totally wrong and STILL pretend that you see nothing.

No wonder I put you on ignore for so long - you're so DUMB AND BLIND that you really are a waste of time to argue with.

 

[Drinking Cap]

No wonder I put you on ignore for so long - you're so DUMB AND BLIND that you really are a waste of time to argue with.

Again, the insults from people like you are a validation so, you know, thanks.

But answer the question. I didn't ask for more numbers or more grainy pictures. What methods were used to get an accurate number of European jews in pre and post war Europe?

 

[Lovelynice]

Not really. You didn't answer my question, mainly, it concerns the methods used by anyone claiming to have an accurate count of the number of European jews in those years. Do you know what methods were used?

Again, the insults from people like you are a validation so, you know, thanks. But answer the question. I didn't ask for more numbers or more grainy pictures. What methods were used to get an accurate number of European jews in pre and post war Europe?

So now you try and pretend to be smarter than the experts and statisticians who calculated the population figures in the World Almanac.

Pull the other one. It plays tinkerbell.

 

[Drinking Cap]

So now you try and pretend to be smarter than the experts and statisticians who calculated the population figures in the World Almanac.

No. I asked if you knew what methods they used considering the general state of secrecy and upheaval that categorized both time periods. I'm leaning towards assuming that you don't, being as you're dodging the question.

 

[Drinking Cap]

So now you try and pretend to be smarter than the experts and statisticians who calculated the population figures in the World Almanac.

Also, you're pretending to be smarter than the experts at the American Historical Association so it's not like it's some huge stretch for this thread.

 

[Lovelynice]

No. I asked if you knew what methods they used considering the general state of secrecy and upheaval that categorized both time periods. I'm leaning towards assuming that you don't, being as you're dodging the question.

I have a fair idea, but I don't have access to the records and statistical data which the World Almanac researchers did, and their conclusions do happen to fit very closely with population estimates of the other sources. That makes them reliable, and your disputing of the their conclusions rather silly.

Are you claiming secret knowledge that none of those population statisticians had?

 

[Drinking Cap]

I have a fair idea, but I don't have access to the records and statistical data which the World Almanac researchers did, and their conclusions do happen to fit very closely with population estimates of the other sources. That makes them reliable, and your disputing of the their conclusions rather silly.

Again, you duck the question. What methods could anyone have used in those time periods to get an accurate number of the Jewish population? What records? What statistical data? These other sources, what are their methods?

These are questions that people who take an academic interest in history have to ask themselves and, it's why, that the organizations that do have an academic interest in history denounce holocaust revisionism as "academic fraud".

 

[Lovelynice]

Also, you're pretending to be smarter than the experts at the American Historical Association so it's not like it's some huge stretch for this thread.

The fact of the matter is, it's the scientific evidence which is blowing apart the claims of the Holocaust myth....and most of those historians wouldn't dare to rock the boat by questioning. It could be dangerous to their careers, ruin them, even threaten their lives... and in Europe they could be jailed, or perhaps extradited and jailed anyway...as has happened.

There is no academic freedom on this subject in the West.

 

[Drinking Cap]

The fact of the matter is, it's the scientific evidence which is blowing apart the claims of the Holocaust myth....and most of those historians wouldn't dare to rock the boat by questioning. .

Yes, everyone is brainwashed but you. Have you changed the tinfoil in your hat recently?

 

[miles]

You sound like a broken record with the ' everyone on Lit is laughing at you' ploy. It don't work dude..we all know that everyone is laughing at you.

Another mildly insane Holocaust-never-happened dildo.

 

[Lovelynice]

Again, you duck the question. What methods could anyone have used in those time periods to get an accurate number of the Jewish population? What records? What statistical data? These other sources, what are their methods?

No I didn't duck the question.

But I can see that you're just playing games of distraction.

In any case, what the experts at the World Almanac estimated for the population is far more accurate than anything that YOU could come up with.

They also match the other population estimates from the time period. That makes the estimates generally reliable.

Also, although I know quite a lot about statistics (having studied the subject) I see no reason to go into a 3000 word thesis on the subject.

Perhaps you, pretending as you are to be an EXPERT can point out EXACTLY what errors the researchers at the World Almanac made in their statistical estimates? Since it's you who want to dismiss their conclusions as being unreliable, it's really up to you to show in what way they got it wrong.

You need to prove them wrong in other words, because I most certainly don't need to prove the World Almanac as being more credible than you. It already is...!

These are questions that people who take an academic interest in history have to ask themselves and, it's why, that the organizations that do have an academic interest in history denounce holocaust revisionism as "academic fraud".

Are you trying to say "ALL Revisionists ALWAYS engage in academic fraud"?

That's a logical fallacy there. Leads to circular argument without any validity.

There are historians who question by the way. Quite a lot of them. Are you trying to claim that they're ALL wrong? ALL of them, ALL the time?

It sounds like you are trying to imply fraud on our part without any evidence, because so far you haven't been able to provide any scientifically verifiable evidence that "gas vans" were even possible, that "diesel gas chambers" existed, or were even workable, or any of those other claims about the Holocaust that have already been so easily dismissed with real science instead of contradictory hearsay, unreliable testimonies, and copies of copies of copies of possibly forged and definitely suspect documents.

In no other historical field is the solid evidence so sparse and untrustworthy than the Holocaust. In no other historical field are transcripts and copies of copies acceptable as evidence or are the rules of historical evidence so lax. In no other historical field is it illegal to question certain dogmatically held versions of "fact".

 

[Lovelynice]

Yes, everyone is brainwashed but you. Have you changed the tinfoil in your hat recently?

Okay fine. You've decided to resort to insults instead of rational argument and facts again.

Off to IGNORE you go.

 

[catfish]

Here is some more info, of course it is not on a site touting UFO's or secret government plots to put birth control in Wheaties, but I think it is still useful.

http://www.hdot.org/ieindex.html

 

[Drinking Cap]

Perhaps you, pretending as you are to be an EXPERT point out EXACTLY what errors the researchers at the World Almanac made in their statistical estimates? Since you who want to dismiss their conclusions as being unreliable, it's really up to you to show in what way they got it wrong.

How can I point out the errors in their methods if you can't even describe what their methods are? You're simply quoting numbers at random, incorrectly at times, and then attempting to pass them off as being written on stone tablets by god himself. You have provided absolutely no verification of your numbers therefore, they are not relevant to an adult debate. I can randomly quote numbers as well.

Are you trying to say "ALL Revisionists ALWAYS engage in academic fraud"?

The American Historical Association said that, not me.

 

[Drinking Cap]

Here is some more info, of course it is not on a site touting UFO's or secret government plots to put birth control in Wheaties, but I think it is still useful.

http://www.hdot.org/ieindex.html

Zionist brainwashing!!!!!!

 

[catfish]

Zionist brainwashing!!!!!!

I know, I am part of the one world zionist conspiracy, zipman recruited me. Now I am off to find some Christian children for my zionist masters to drain the blood out of.

 

[Lovelynice]

Here is some more info, of course it is not on a site touting UFO's or secret government plots to put birth control in Wheaties, but I think it is still useful.

http://www.hdot.org/ieindex.html

Oh I remember you.

Sorry I'm not interested in those UFOs and weirdo things like you apparently are (afterall you're the one who mentioned them, not I).

Weren't you the one who thought KRcummings was so brilliant when she posted a picture from Wikipedia of some garbage in a hole and was gullible enough not to look for herself what it really was...

They still look like pieces of wood to me, and not a sign anywhere that there was ever any dead bodies in there.

That Deborah Lipstadt vs David Irving trial was about Irvings credibility, and whether he was an anti-semite or not (he was as everyone knew already), but not the Holocaust revisionism per se...

New evidence has since turned up by the way. One of the claims during the trial was that fans were used to pump the zyklon-b gas out of the chambers in a very brief time.

But this document makes that claim questionable...
(damn link isn't working properly - back soon to fix it)

Konzentrationslager Auschwitz Auschwitz, den 12. August 1943
Kommanantur [handwritten]


S o n d e r b e f e h l.


Ein heute mit leichten Vergiftungserscheinungen durch
Blausäure aufgetretener Krankheitsfall gibt Veranlassung,
allen an Vergasungen [!!!] Beteiligten und allen übrigen SS-
Angehörigen bekanntzugeben, daß insbesondere beim Öffnen
der vergasten Räume von SS-Angehörigen ohne Maske wenigs-
tens 5 Stunden hindurch ein Abstand von 15 Metern von
der Kammer gewahrt werden muß. Hierbei ist besonders auf
die Windrichtung zu achten.
Das jetzt verwendete Gas enthält weniger beigesetzte
Geruchstoffe und ist daher besonders gefährlich.
Der SS-Standortarzt Auschwitz lehnt die Verantwortung für
eintretende Unglücksfälle in den den Fällen ab, bei denen
von SS-Angehörigen diese Richtlinien nicht eingehalten
werden.

gez.: H Ö ß
SS-Obersturmbannführer und Kommandant.




F.d.R.:
[Unterschrift Mulka]
SS-Hauptsturmführer und Adjutant.

Verteiler:

7-Stück an SS-T-Stuba. je 1 Stück an:
7 " " Verwaltung SS-Revier,HWL,DAW.Funkst.
3 " " Ablage Fernschreibestelle
2 " " Bauleitung Telefonvermittlung
2 " " Polit.Abt. SS-Kantinengemeinschaft
1 " " 9./SS-T-Stuba. Fahrbereitschaft
1 " " Landwirtschaft Arbeitseinsatz KL
1 " " Reitstall Abteilung IV

1 " " Schutzhaftlager Außendienststelle des
1 " " FKL. Amtes V.I
1 " " Gerichtsoffizier Sonderkommando Zeppelin.
1 " " Personalabteilung
1 " " Haus der Waffen-SS

The document above says:
"daß insbesondere beim Öffnen
der vergasten Räume von SS-Angehörigen ohne Maske wenigs-
tens 5 Stunden hindurch ein Abstand von 15 Metern von
der Kammer gewahrt werden muß. Hierbei ist besonders auf
die Windrichtung zu achten".

That apparently means that protection measures must be taken (for personnel without gas masks) under five hours after the gassed rooms have been opened, in a distance of fifteen metres around the room, and that attention must be paid particulary to the wind direction.

Which means that the doors had to be opened for ventilation and NOT that the fans were used - according the best German translation into English that Icould find.


By the way, the Nizkor folks read some of the details wrong. If you check their version of the translation for example, they have the year wrong and a few other details.

 

[catfish]

Oh I remember you.

Sorry I'm not interested in those UFOs and weirdo things like you apparently are (afterall you're the one who mentioned them, not I).

Weren't you the one who thought KRcummings was so brilliant when she posted a picture from Wikipedia of some garbage in a hole and was gullible enough not to look for herself what it really was...

They still look like pieces of wood to me, and not a sign anywhere that there was ever any dead bodies in there.

That Deborah Lipstadt vs David Irving trial was about Irvings credibility, and whether he was an anti-semite or not (he was as everyone knew already), but not the Holocaust revisionism per se...

New evidence has since turned up by the way. One of the claims during the trial was that fans were used to pump the zyklon-b gas out of the chambers in a very brief time.

But this document makes that claim questionable...

(originally from here http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/images/ftp.py?camps/auschwitz/images//Gaskammern.jpg

Konzentrationslager Auschwitz Auschwitz, den 12. August 1943
Kommanantur [handwritten]


S o n d e r b e f e h l.


Ein heute mit leichten Vergiftungserscheinungen durch
Blausäure aufgetretener Krankheitsfall gibt Veranlassung,
allen an Vergasungen [!!!] Beteiligten und allen übrigen SS-
Angehörigen bekanntzugeben, daß insbesondere beim Öffnen
der vergasten Räume von SS-Angehörigen ohne Maske wenigs-
tens 5 Stunden hindurch ein Abstand von 15 Metern von
der Kammer gewahrt werden muß. Hierbei ist besonders auf
die Windrichtung zu achten.
Das jetzt verwendete Gas enthält weniger beigesetzte
Geruchstoffe und ist daher besonders gefährlich.
Der SS-Standortarzt Auschwitz lehnt die Verantwortung für
eintretende Unglücksfälle in den den Fällen ab, bei denen
von SS-Angehörigen diese Richtlinien nicht eingehalten
werden.

gez.: H Ö ß
SS-Obersturmbannführer und Kommandant.




F.d.R.:
[Unterschrift Mulka]
SS-Hauptsturmführer und Adjutant.

Verteiler:

7-Stück an SS-T-Stuba. je 1 Stück an:
7 " " Verwaltung SS-Revier,HWL,DAW.Funkst.
3 " " Ablage Fernschreibestelle
2 " " Bauleitung Telefonvermittlung
2 " " Polit.Abt. SS-Kantinengemeinschaft
1 " " 9./SS-T-Stuba. Fahrbereitschaft
1 " " Landwirtschaft Arbeitseinsatz KL
1 " " Reitstall Abteilung IV

1 " " Schutzhaftlager Außendienststelle des
1 " " FKL. Amtes V.I
1 " " Gerichtsoffizier Sonderkommando Zeppelin.
1 " " Personalabteilung
1 " " Haus der Waffen-SS

The document above says:
"daß insbesondere beim Öffnen
der vergasten Räume von SS-Angehörigen ohne Maske wenigs-
tens 5 Stunden hindurch ein Abstand von 15 Metern von
der Kammer gewahrt werden muß. Hierbei ist besonders auf
die Windrichtung zu achten".

That apparently means that protection measures must be taken (for personnel without gas masks) under five hours after the gassed rooms have been opened, in a distance of fifteen metres around the room, and that attention must be paid particulary to the wind direction.

Which means that the doors had to be opened for ventilation and NOT that the fans were used - according the best German translation into English that Icould find.


By the way, the Nizkor folks read some of the details wrong. If you check their version of the translation for example, they have the year wrong and a few other details.

I was referring to those in this discussion who have used articles from rense.com as the basis for their beliefs, I was not specifically referring to you.

The Lipstadt trial had very much to do with holocaust denial and although it was important to the case, was not a trial to prove that Irving was anti-semitic. It was also important in pointing out the way the denial industry distorts facts, twists "findings" and uses questionable sources and methods to come to their conclusions. It's sloppy academics, and if you are the educated person you claim to be, you have to admit that.

 

[catfish]

As to your posting of the picture of a bill, I am assuming since I don't read German, I will have to research that one since your link only gave the pic and no text.

 

[Lovelynice]

How can I point out the errors in their methods if you can't even describe what their methods are?

It's not up to me to show that the World Almanac is correct and reliable, since it's YOU who are trying to argue that it's not then it's up to YOU to prove that the World Almanac's experts got it wrong.

You're simply quoting numbers at random,

No, and I'm quoting from World Almanac population figures. They aren't "random"

incorrectly at times,

Are you referring to those difficult to read photo of an actual page from the 1940 World Almanac? I already explained the typo, and nevertheless you are quite capable of reading the pages yourself and therefore should be quite capable of seeing that the "six million Jews killed" claim simply isn't supported by comparison with pre-war and post-war Jewish population statistics.

and then attempting to pass them off as being written on stone tablets by god himself.

When did "God" enter the picture? Did I ever say such a thing?

As far I can see tell, those are pages are from the World Almanac. I have the cover too if you want to see that as well.

You have provided absolutely no verification of your numbers

Oh so now you are claiming blindness, you can't see the two pages from the World Almanac?

therefore, they are not relevant to an adult debate.

Adult debate? Since when did you start behaving like an adult?

I can randomly quote numbers as well.

Yes, lots of kids can.

You keep repeating random excuses too.

The American Historical Association said that, not me.

What ALL OF THEM?! Or do you mean just ONE MAN?

I didn't hear anything about them doing any choral singing, it must have been a big event. How many members do they have? And seriously they ALL said the same thing at the same time?! No individual differences of opinion at all?!

 

[Lovelynice]

As to your posting of the picture of a bill, I am assuming since I don't read German, I will have to research that one since your link only gave the pic and no text.

Oops. wrong pic.

And I'll fix the link - give us a a few minutes.

 

[Lovelynice]

The Lipstadt trial had very much to do with holocaust denial and although it was important to the case, was not a trial to prove that Irving was anti-semitic.

No it was a libel trial, and the tactic used by Lipstadt's defence was to prove that Irving was anti-semitic. The media jumped right on the bandwagon to go along with this.

Also, it was far from a trial of Holocaust revisionism (which is not necessarily "denial" despite the blanket accussation), as that came up more so in other cases. Like the Zundel trial, where there really wasn't much evidence for the holocaust to show.

It was also important in pointing out the way the denial industry distorts facts, twists "findings" and uses questionable sources and methods to come to their conclusions.

You mean it was important for trying to show that ONE MAN made mistakes. It had nothing at all to do with anybody else.

It's sloppy academics, and if you are the educated person you claim to be, you have to admit that.

It was sloppy on David Irving's part only.

It doesn't have any bearing at all on whether Diesel "gas vans" are going to be more scientifically viable or mechanically workable, or the "Diesel gas chambers", and many other similar problems with the alleged methods of killing used. I haven't seen anyone yet show up with an autopsy report of a cyanide-gassed body from a mass grave, and neither have I seen anyone win that $165,000 reward for finding huge mass graves at Treblinka with the remains expected for tens of thousands of dead.

If you are an educated and intelligent person, you have to be able to admit that since these things (such as the ridiculous "gas vans") aren't workable and the claims about them go against scientific studies and mechanical engineering, then there are some very big problems in claiming that they existed.

Likewise, if the world population of Jews didn't drop significantly, then where in hell did the alleged "six million dead" come from? Considering how much of the Holocaust evidence is very weak, and depends on contradictory testimonies and transcripts rather than actual solid verifiable evidence and original wartime German documents, then an intelligent person would have to assume that millions of Jews didn't die. Maybe only a few hundred thousand died - but they didn't die in "diesel gas chambers" and "diesel gas vans" in anything like the previously alleged numbers.

The problems accumulate the more the stories of the Holocaust are examined.

 

[Lovelynice]

Interesting article I just found by accident. Written by Carlo Mattogno

 

[unculbact]

Here's a better question. What methods could the world almanac have used, given the state of the world in both 1940 and 1948, to get even a halfway accurate number of the population of anyone? What methods did they use?

I got curious about that too, so I did a little digging.

The World Almanac was founded by Joseph Pulitzer in 1886, and has been published ever since. The book is a compendium; and it's sources are other almanacs

Digging around, I found that the World Almanac's statement that the American Jewish population was 4,971,261 for the year 1948 originally came from the Jewish Statistical Bureau of the Synagogue Council, which is affiliated with the American Jewish Council.

The figure in the 1940 World Almanac that states that the population of Jews in Europe was 9,372,666, has a more interesting provenance.

I found out that that figure was originally published by Arthur Ruppin, a Zionist pioneer credited as being "the father of Jewish sociology".

Here's some background on Ruppin.

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/PEOPLE/BIOS/ruppin.html

The figure given in the 1940 World Almanac is actually two years out of date, since it comes from Ruppin's 1938 publication, Les Juifs dans le Monde moderne.

I have a fair command of French, but I would never want to upstage him.

So to give him an opportunity to demonstrate his cosmopolitan erudition, I'll let Miles translate the title of Ruppin's book for all of us.

Ce naturellement, est une plaisanterie. Nous ne pourrions pas nous attendre à un morceau de merde mentalement retardé comme des Miles traduise n'importe quoi hors de l'anglais, beaucoup moin'une langue continentale. En fait, sa mère doit lire ces poteaux à lui.

So, the figures in the World Almanac that we see in Lovely's posts come from sources that so far, can be considered good.

Good, but I wouldn't call them unimpeachable. Other tables contradict them, and the Soviet sources of the time are, as always - Soviet sources. With Soviet credibility.

 

[unculbact]

Lovely's German quote translated.

S o n d e r b e f e h l.
August 12, 1942

Ein heute mit leichten Vergiftungserscheinungen durch
Blausäure aufgetretener Krankheitsfall gibt Veranlassung,
allen an Vergasungen [!!!] Beteiligten und allen übrigen SS-
Angehörigen bekanntzugeben, daß insbesondere beim Öffnen
der vergasten Räume von SS-Angehörigen ohne Maske wenigs-
tens 5 Stunden hindurch ein Abstand von 15 Metern von
der Kammer gewahrt werden muß. Hierbei ist besonders auf
die Windrichtung zu achten.

Das jetzt verwendete Gas enthält weniger beigesetzte
Geruchstoffe und ist daher besonders gefährlich.

Der SS-Standortarzt Auschwitz lehnt die Verantwortung für
eintretende Unglücksfälle in den den Fällen ab, bei denen
von SS-Angehörigen diese Richtlinien nicht eingehalten
werden.

gez.: H Ö ß
SS-Obersturmbannführer und Kommandant.

August 12, 1942

Special Order

A case of indisposition with slight symptoms of poisoning by hydrocyanic acid gas which occurred today makes it necessary to warn all those participating in the gassings and all other SS members that in particular on opening rooms used for gassing SS not wearing masks must wait at least five hours and keep a distance of at least 15 metres from the chamber. In addition, particular attention should be paid to the wind direction.

The gas being used at present contains less odorous warning agent and is therefore especially dangerous.

The SS garrison doctor declines all responsibility for any accident that should occur in the case when these directives have not been complied with by SS members.

Signed: Hoess
SS Lieutenant-Colonel and Commandant
---------------------------
Note the date. This was in the middle of the first of several typhus epidemics at Auschwitz Main (Birkenau not having been built yet). The chambers he would be referring to would be the DEGASCH designed disinfestation chambers, used for delousing clothes. Hoess can't possibly be referring to Krema I at Auschwitz Main, since that had been shut down in the spring of 1942, and was being converted into an air raid shelter.