Why The Holocaust Must Be Questioned

[Lovelynice]

Its also sad that those who experienced the holocaust are also practicing it. The Palestinians are slowly being annihilated by the Jews.

That's if they experienced it. Many other ethnic groups suffered far worse, like the Christians in Russia and other Soviet-controlled nations with tens of millions slaughtered; often by jewish-led communists.

Israelis have managed to kill an estimated 3 million Palestinians since 1948

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

Is there a verified link showing that the trucks in question were producing a measured exhaust output that would have burnt the rubber measure at the time?

The simple argument that "exhaust gasses exit an engine at ... C, and the best rubber available at the time could not handle this" = "holocaust a hoax" is not a valid argument.

Would I say that six million people were kiiled in this manor? No.

Would I say that the concept was impossible, and that the statement "the murder trucks could not have existed at all, even in a trial form?" was true? No.

 

[Wok]

Is there a verified link showing that the trucks in question were producing a measured exhaust output that would have burnt the rubber measure at the time?

The simple argument that "exhaust gasses exit an engine at ... C, and the best rubber available at the time could not handle this" = "holocaust a hoax" is not a valid argument.

Would I say that six million people were kiiled in this manor? No.

Would I say that the concept was impossible, and that the statement "the murder trucks could not have existed at all, even in a trial form?" was true? No.

Whatever the numbers and method used (if any), again, do they support the killing? I'll read the thread and see if this is the case. I am sure it will vary.

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

We already HAVE

Many times.

Why don't stop showing off your ignorance and read through the thread?

Here is it is again!



There's a lot more scientific studies proving the same point.

They're already referred to many times in this thread.

Read them!

You can find anything if you want to make it work, it seems.

Here is a more recent study, showing it is possible to use this method.

... study on this in the British Journal of Industrial
Medicine (Prattle, 47-55). The researchers ran a few experiments in
which various animals were exposed to diesel fumes, and studied the
results. (See
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/diesel-01.html
for additional information relating to diesel exhaust.)

In the experiments, the exhaust of a small diesel engine (568 cc, 6
BHP) was connected to a chamber 10 cubic meters (340 cubic feet) in
volume, and the animals were put inside it. In all cases, the
animals died. Death was swifter when the intake of air to the engine
was restricted, as this causes a large increase in the amount of
carbon monoxide (CO) that is emitted. (See, for instance, "Diesel
Engine Reference Book", by Lilly, 1985, p. 18/8, where it is stated
that at a high air/fuel ratio the concentration of CO is only a few
parts per million but for lower ratios (25:1) the concentration of CO
can rise up to 3,000 ppm. It is very easy to restrict the air intake
- the British researchers did so by partially covering the air intake
opening with a piece of metal.)

...

And the full article.

79 The Gas Chambers (Holocaust: Reinhard)
All three of the Reinhard camps used carbon monoxide, pumped into sealed
rooms, to do their killing.

Carbon monoxide worked slower than Zyklon B, but it worked well
enough for Himmler to proceed. While he was ... in Lublin, he
sent a written order to Kru"ger: the "resettlement" of the
entire Jewish population of the Government General was to be
completed by December 31, 1942. With the exception of a few
collection camps for Jews in some major cities, no Jews were to
remain in Poland. All Jewish laborers had to complete their jobs
or be transferred to one of the collection camps. These measures
were prerequisites for the Nazi "new order" in Europe, since any
remaining Jews would stimulate resistance and provide a source
of moral and physical pestilence. (Himmler to Kru"ger, 19 July
1942, NA RG 238, NO-5574, quoted by Arad, Belzec, 47)(Breitman,
238)

Those who deny the Holocaust have claimed that fumes from a diesel
engine are not toxic enough to kill people. (This claim is made with
regard to the death camp of Treblinka - see Section 4.1.3 for the
rulings from the German Treblinka trials. In other death camps,
gasoline engines were used. The method of killing was simple -
people were crammed into the gas chambers, and the exhaust of
powerful engines was pumped into them).

In a closed chamber, of course diesel fumes will kill. There was
actually a study on this in the British Journal of Industrial
Medicine (Prattle, 47-55). The researchers ran a few experiments in
which various animals were exposed to diesel fumes, and studied the
results. (See
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/diesel-01.html
for additional information relating to diesel exhaust.)

In the experiments, the exhaust of a small diesel engine (568 cc, 6
BHP) was connected to a chamber 10 cubic meters (340 cubic feet) in
volume, and the animals were put inside it. In all cases, the
animals died. Death was swifter when the intake of air to the engine
was restricted, as this causes a large increase in the amount of
carbon monoxide (CO) that is emitted. (See, for instance, "Diesel
Engine Reference Book", by Lilly, 1985, p. 18/8, where it is stated
that at a high air/fuel ratio the concentration of CO is only a few
parts per million but for lower ratios (25:1) the concentration of CO
can rise up to 3,000 ppm. It is very easy to restrict the air intake
- the British researchers did so by partially covering the air intake
opening with a piece of metal.)

Even in cases where the CO output was low, the animals still died
from other toxic components - mainly, irritants and nitrogen dioxide.

Now, the diesel engines used in Treblinka were much larger - they
belonged to captured Soviet T-34 tanks. These tanks weighed 26-31
tons (depending on the model) and had a 500 BHP engine (compared to a
mere 6 BHP in the British experiments). The volume of the
extermination chambers in Treblinka is, of course, a factor. But the
chambers' volume is about 60 cubic meters (2040 cubic feet); this is
6 times more than those in the British experiments, but the difference
in the size of the engines is much larger than a factor of 6.

It should be remembered that what matters in CO poisoning is not the
concentration of CO, but the ratio of CO to oxygen. In a small,
gas-tight room, crammed full of people, oxygen levels drop quickly,
thus making death by CO poisoning faster. As noted, other toxic
components in the fumes further accelerate mortality.

The SS was aware of the fact that cramming as many people as possible
into the gas chamber, thus leaving no empty spaces, would accelerate
mortality. This is evident, for instance, from a letter regarding
"gassing vans" (used in the Chelmno extermination camp and other
locations) sent to SS-Obersturmbannfu"hrer Walter Rauff, 5 June 1942.
(Rauff was in charge of the Technical Department of the Reich Security
Main Office, and was responsible for developing the mobile gas vans
used by the Einsatzgruppen) The letter is quite long, but here is the
relevant part:

------------------------------------------------------------------
2) The vans are normally loaded with 9-10 people per square meter.
With the large Saurer special vans this is not possible because
although they do not become overloaded their maneuverability is
much impaired. A reduction in the load area appears desirable.
It can be achieved by reducing the size of the van by c. 1 meter.
The difficulty referred to cannot be overcome by reducing the size
of the load. For a reduction in the numbers will necessitate a
longer period of operation because the free spaces will have to be
filled with CO. By contrast, a smaller load area which is
completely full requires a much shorter period of operation since
there are no free spaces."(Just. See
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/r/rauff.walter/rauff.letter.060542)
------------------------------------------------------------------

On July 22 ...deportations began from the Warsaw ghetto to ...
[Treblinka]. The same day, Globocnik wrote to Karl Wolff: "The
Reich Fuehrer SS ... has given us so much new work that with it
now all our most secret wishes are to be fulfilled. I am so
very thankful to him for this, and he can be sure of one thing,
that these things he wishes will be fulfilled in the shortest
time. (On the start of deportations to Treblinka, Arad, Belzec,
60-61, 392. Quote from Globocnik to Wolff, 22 July 1942,
Globocnik SS file, Berlin Document Center.) (Breitman, 238)

The Treblinka site is now a Polish National Monument.

 

[Faneros]

That's if they experienced it. Many other ethnic groups suffered far worse, like the Christians in Russia and other Soviet-controlled nations with tens of millions slaughtered; often by jewish-led communists.

Israelis have managed to kill an estimated 3 million Palestinians since 1948

You're really insane.

 

[Lovelynice]

You can find anything if you want to make it work, it seems.

Here is a more recent study, showing it is possible to use this method..

You obviously didn't read the full report of the 1957 Pattel Study or the report from DEFRA.

"in all cases, all the animals died" - according to Nizkor's version. Gee, they don't mind lying do they? This lie of Nizkor's was dealt with already.

One rabbit survived. It was in the chamber for over six hours and it survived.

10% of the mice survived. They were in there for upto 12 hours

That isn't a very effective method, is it?

But the point really is, that NIZKOR LIED.

Everything else survived for HOURS before finally succumbing

Read the full report, please.

and back to the main point, the claims are that these diesel gas chambers and gas vans were used to kill people in 15-30 minutes. But that simply isn't possible with diesel engines, and as was pointed out earlier in thread, the devices would explode and kill the driver and anyone else nearby. Theycan't do what is claimed, they're not even possible,






.

 

[Lovelynice]

You're really insane.

I think you are.





.

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

What about the petrol engines? They didn't all use diesel.

 

[unculbact]

You could have gone farther than that.

Pattel and company ran the engine under 4 different conditions (A thru D), and in the A mode (normal diesel operation with no load) ALL the animals survived. Deaths didn't start appearing until the "B" experiment with the diesel operating under a load with restricted air supply, and even then, as in the "C" experiment, the biggest animals, the rabbits, survived. Universal deaths didn't occur until the "D" experiments, operating the diesel under conditions which would ruin it in a week (heavy load, run as fast as it can, restricted air supply).

This filled the chamber with aereated, atomized, unburned diesel fuel which would have caused a massive explosion in an unprotected chamber. In this case all the animals died, AFTER THREE AND A HALF HOURS, and from pulmonary edema caused by the soot and unburned fuel.

The Pattel experiment was about toxicology, not diesel engineering, and didn't address the problem of a too-long exhaust pipe, which at places like Treblinka was supposedly the length of the 5 chambers. The easiest way to destroy a diesel engine is to screw around with the exhaust system. An exhaust pipe that is too short will create too little draft thru the engine, and the resultant engine knock from incomplete chamber combustion will ruin the piston rings in as little as one day.

An exhaust pipe too long will lead to the exhaust becoming too cool and dense near the end of the pipe, leading to shock waves and vibration that will swiftly ruin every component in the engine.

You obviously didn't read the full report of the 1957 Pattel Study or the report from DEFRA.

"in all cases, all the animals died" - according to Nizkor's version. Gee, they don't mind lying do they? This lie of Nizkor's was dealt with already.

One rabbit survived. It was in the chamber for over six hours and it survived.

10% of the mice survived. They were in there for upto 12 hours

That isn't a very effective method, is it?

But the point really is, that NIZKOR LIED.

Everything else survived for HOURS before finally succumbing

Read the full report, please.

and back to the main point, the claims are that these diesel gas chambers and gas vans were used to kill people in 15-30 minutes. But that simply isn't possible with diesel engines, and as was pointed out earlier in thread, the devices would explode and kill the driver and anyone else nearby. Theycan't do what is claimed, they're not even possible,






.

 

[unculbact]

What about the petrol engines? They didn't all use diesel.

There's a single report from a man who claimed to survive Sobibor who claimed the engines ran on "benzin". The language challenged have interpreted this as being "benzene", a fuel so poisonous that benzene engines were abandoned before 1910.

"Benzin" is both the German and Yiddish word for "gasoline", so it can be assumed that he meant a gasoline engine, but his statement is contradicted by others, and gasoline engines pose their own special problems, both in terms of fuel supply at a time when gasoline was as valuable as gold, and more technical problems in terms of a modified exhaust system and the problem involved in pumping exhaust with flammable products in it into a closed chamber.

For a particular problem that everybody might know, Driver's Ed classes all over America have a big problem, in that the plugs get fouled quickly because of the low speeds and excessive idle running conditions that happen in high school level Driver's Ed. The plugs and points have to be changed every two weeks or so. This would not have been possible in wartime.

In all other places, people are adament in alleging that the engines were diesel. In particular, at Chelmno, execution of an alleged 300,000 Jews was supposedly and exclusivly accomplished by gas vans, which are described as trucks made by the Saurer company, a now-defunct truck manufacturer.

As many people have pointed out, Saurer abandoned gasoline engines in 1910, and after that made exclusively diesel powered vehicles. And you can't retrofit a gasoline engine into a diesel chassis.

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

Damn neo-nazis

 

[richard_daily]

Everything else survived for HOURS before finally succumbing

Is this why you're so fucking wacked out of your mind? from huffing too much gas?

Oh wait, you never put your money where you mouth was, and stuck yourself in one of them, did you?

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

Is this why you're so fucking wacked out of your mind? from huffing too much gas?

Oh wait, you never put your money where you mouth was, and stuck yourself in one of them, did you?

Oi! No need to be rude to the woman. Just call her names. She isn't stupid or wacked, just misguided about the Holocaust.

 

[richard_daily]

Oi! No need to be rude to the woman. Just call her names. She isn't stupid or wacked, just misguided about the Holocaust.

Actually, she is stupid and wacked. And she still never sent me photos that prove she's a woman, even though she asked for, and received pictures of my cock.

 

[Moanique]

That's if they experienced it. Many other ethnic groups suffered far worse, like the Christians in Russia and other Soviet-controlled nations with tens of millions slaughtered; often by jewish-led communists.

Israelis have managed to kill an estimated 3 million Palestinians since 1948

Since when is it a matter of who suffered worst? This is about human suffering, the atrocities committed by mankind against mankind, it's about genocide.
When you hear or read about a child being abused, do you immediately start to minimize the impact that has had on the child's life by naming a dozen cases worse than his/hers?
When you see someone break down in tears because they are grieving the loss of a loved one, do you belittle their suffering by naming other people's who've lost more loved ones?
When someone speaks of injuries or labor pains that they found painful and traumatic, do you one up them by bringing up more graphic examples?

For fuck's sake, LN, the holocaust was a genocide.
People were tortured, traumatized and disposed of in the cruelest, most animalistic possible way.
So were scores of other people during the Spanish Inquisition.
So were too many in the Balkans.
So are countless people in Darfur.
So were the people of Thailand during Pol Pot's days in power.
And more.

Does any of those people's suffering minimize or cancel out the suffering of others?
SINCE WHEN?

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

Actually, she is stupid and wacked. And she still never sent me photos that prove she's a woman, even though she asked for, and received pictures of my cock.

Prove it.

If you sent her those pics, you can prove it. What kind of idjit sends pics of his dick to women he's arguing with and insulting?

Man oh man, the woman probably never opened the damn messages if you did that.

I'm seeing a few fuckers like you making allegations in posts about this woman, but every time I look for the evidence there isn't any.

Me is a betting that you can't produce any either. You know the score; link to the post where she asked for the dick pics, and link to where she admitted getting them.

"Lovelynice" ain't wacked or stupid. Smart cookie, does the research. I don't agree with her current opinion of the Holocaust, or her bloody temper when she goes off, but hey nothing wrong with passion and brains.

 

[richard_daily]

Prove it.

If you sent her those pics, you can prove it. What kind of idjit sends pics of his dick to women he's arguing with and insulting?

Man oh man, the woman probably never opened the damn messages if you did that.

I'm seeing a few fuckers like you making allegations in posts about this woman, but every time I look for the evidence there isn't any.

Me is a betting that you can't produce any either. You know the score; link to the post where she asked for the dick pics, and link to where she admitted getting them.

"Lovelynice" ain't wacked or stupid. Smart cookie, does the research. I don't agree with her current opinion of the Holocaust, or her bloody temper when she goes off, but hey nothing wrong with passion and brains.

It was over PMs... which I'm sure you already know.

and "she" asked for them.

and she's certainly not smart. Any trained monkey can cut and paste from neo-nazi and holocaust denier websites. Hardly what I'd consider "research".

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

Since when is it a matter of who suffered worst? This is about human suffering, the atrocities committed by mankind against mankind, it's about genocide.
When you hear or read about a child being abused, do you immediately start to minimize the impact that has had on the child's life by naming a dozen cases worse than his/hers?
When you see someone break down in tears because they are grieving the loss of a loved one, do you belittle their suffering by naming other people's who've lost more loved ones?
When someone speaks of injuries or labor pains that they found painful and traumatic, do you one up them by bringing up more graphic examples?

For fuck's sake, LN, the holocaust was a genocide.
People were tortured, traumatized and disposed of in the cruelest, most animalistic possible way.
So were scores of other people during the Spanish Inquisition.
So were too many in the Balkans.
So are countless people in Darfur.
So were the people of Thailand during Pol Pot's days in power.
And more.

Does any of those people's suffering minimize or cancel out the suffering of others?
SINCE WHEN?

Jews being killed is numero uno?

The Holocaust happened, no need to attempt to the minimise the other genocides either.

We hear too much about Jews this, Jews that. What about the Christians? What about everyone else?

When are we going to see movies made in Hollywood about Stalin's death squads?

"Lovelynice" is right to mention the other genocides, but there are those who prefer to keep the focus only on the Jews that died in the Holocust, all other genocides pushed back to play second fiddle to the great genocide of the Jews.

You're doing that same shitty thing that pisses people off. You give fuel to the neo-nazis and anti-semites when you always try to put the focus back onto Jews suffering and away from the other genocides, some of them many times worse.

Show some perspective.

 

[Moanique]

Jews being killed is numero uno?

The Holocaust happened, no need to attempt to the minimise the other genocides either.

We hear too much about Jews this, Jews that. What about the Christians? What about everyone else?

When are we going to see movies made in Hollywood about Stalin's death squads?

"Lovelynice" is right to mention the other genocides, but there are those who prefer to keep the focus only on the Jews that died in the Holocust, all other genocides pushed back to play second fiddle to the great genocide of the Jews.

You're doing that same shitty thing that pisses people off. You give fuel to the neo-nazis and anti-semites when you always try to put the focus back onto Jews suffering and away from the other genocides, some of them many times worse.

Show some perspective.

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, I see. Carry on...

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

It was over PMs... which I'm sure you already know.

How "convenient". Forgive me for not believing a word of your story.

and she's certainly not smart. Any trained monkey can cut and paste from neo-nazi and holocaust denier websites. Hardly what I'd consider "research".

Trained monkeys can't put together a logical argument, or debate with researched statements. "Lovelynice" does this better than anyone else on this board, Even when she's wrong, she puts together such a solid case that her opponents in debate are forced to equal the effort in research and typically that's beyond most members on this site.

Obessive, passionate, but she's also very articulate and smarter than the average GB poster. You can be smart and still wrong. No need to call her stupid when she is far from it. You demean youself when you drop to the level of debate of drunk yelling abuse.

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, I see. Carry on...

I see it ain't yours.

Post too long for you was it? Go back to your drugs and alcohol.

 

[richard_daily]

How "convenient". Forgive me for not believing a word of your story.



Trained monkeys can't put together a logical argument, or debate with researched statements. "Lovelynice" does this better than anyone else on this board, Even when she's wrong, she puts together such a solid case that her opponents in debate are forced to equal the effort in research and typically that's beyond most members on this site.

Obessive, passionate, but she's also very articulate and smarter than the average GB poster. You can be smart and still wrong. No need to call her stupid when she is far from it. You demean youself when you drop to the level of debate of drunk yelling abuse.

I have never seen an logical argument in a lovely nice post. Not a single one.

She ignores every fact to the contrary of her "proof", and just posts in bigger fonts and with more colors the more she's proven wrong.

All of her posts are without any sort of documented accountability or quoted sources, and her way of arguing amounts to this:

someone posts something that proves her statements to be false:

Lovelynice: "but ____ (person who's article just proved her wrong) is a liar. But of COURSE YOU ALREADY KNOW THAT"

Not worth the time of calling her anything but stupid... because that's what she is.

 

[Moanique]

I see it ain't yours.

Post too long for you was it? Go back to your drugs and alcohol.

You look like the cutest little chipmunk on a cocktail of meth and steroids, when you run out of argument.

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

I have never seen an logical argument in a lovely nice post. Not a single one.

It takes a logical rational mind to recognize it in others. Your failure to recognize the logic and research in her posts says more about you than it does about her.

She supports every argument with enough links and quotes for a thesis. She scores A+ all the way on how she puts together an argument in an online debate.

The only faults that I have with her are that she's bad tempered, arrogant, rude to anyone who she doesn't like, obsessive, and her posts hurt my eyes to read when they are longer than War And Peace. I don't have the energy to read through 3,000 words in a single post online.

Stupid? No. Obsessive to an extreme that drives me mad. Yes.

You calling her stupid only makes you look stupid,

 

[WingNut_N_Bolt]

You look like the cutest little chipmunk on a cocktail of meth and steroids, when you run out of argument.

You didn't post an argument. You posted evidence of your not being able to read.

The drugs and alcohol have you addled. Stop typing and take a break.