15 killed in shooting at Uvalde elementary school, active shooter killed, officials say

[ll74]

This right here will prevent about six of the last ten mass shootings

6/ Enhanced background check for under 21 gun buyers and a short pause to conduct the check. Young buyers can get the gun only after the enhanced check is completed.

 

[Dribble]

This right here will prevent about six of the last ten mass shootings

It is weird....doctors tell us kids brains aren't fully developed at 18...and is the reason underaged sex is a criminal crime...because they can't make a fully informed decision. Yet...they can make an informed decision concerning when to pull a gun.

 

[ll74]

It is weird....doctors tell us kids brains aren't fully developed at 18...and is the reason underaged sex is a criminal crime...because they can't make a fully informed decision. Yet...they can make an informed decision concerning when to pull a gun.

Ages of shit are arbitrary most of the time . I'd say most people are truly kids until the mid 20s.

But there's a lot that goes into that I like that they are adding extended background checks for 18-21 yr olds on gun purchases.

 

[butters]

https://www.insider.com/uvalde-classroom-doors-may-not-have-been-locked-report-says-2022-6

a new law enforcement source is suggesting the classroom doors weren't locked (some malfunction) and that, even if they were, police have the tool to open them.

Uvalde police didn't check to see if the door to the two connected classrooms the Robb Elementary shooter barricaded himself in with children was unlocked, a source close to the investigation told the San Antonio Express-News.

The Texas Department of Public Safety previously said that the doors locked from the inside. But after viewing surveillance footage, investigators believed the doors may have not been able to be locked from the inside due to a malfunction, the source the Express-News.

Uvalde Consolidated School District Police Chief Pedro "Pete" Arredondo and 19 other officers spent over an hour waiting in a hallway outside after the gunman entered the classrooms.

Arredondo told the Texas Tribune the response was delayed because he requested tactical gear, a sniper, and keys to get inside, all while trying to hold back from the doors in order to avoid gunfire.

Arredondo has received the largest share of scrutiny for his role during the shooting. Body camera footage from the day of the incident showed that police knew that children were still alive in classrooms 111 and 112, but did not immediately enter to save them.

The Texas Department of Public Safety also said that Arredondo made the call to treat the gunman as a "barricaded subject" and not an "active shooter."

 

[Sean Renaud]

It is weird....doctors tell us kids brains aren't fully developed at 18...and is the reason underaged sex is a criminal crime...because they can't make a fully informed decision. Yet...they can make an informed decision concerning when to pull a gun.

As was already stated the laws are mostly arbitrary and in the US its at least in part our religious legacy. We are descended from people who had a stick so far up their asses that the Brits kicked them out! Can you imagine being so stuck in the mud that Queen Elizabeth (Who was there at the time) kicked you out?

Like the age of consent in the US is 18 that is far from universal either in the states themselves or across the globe.

The age for drinking is 21. This again is not universal by any stretch of the imagination.

Joining the military at 18 is a thing.

I think smoking got bumped up to 21 recently but I don't smoke/vape so I wouldn't have the first clue on that front.

I've always found it disgusting that we believe that a teen can be tried as an adult for things like rape or murder because they 'understand the rammifications' which I mostly agree with. But the majority of people in the world will never directly kill anybody. If indirectly counts then sure, I was aviation ordinance. I have to believe that some of those choppers and jets actually killed someone in Iraq. A lot of us would probably technically qualify as war criminals but oh well, the past is the past.

Most people on the other hand will have sex at some point in their lives. This is a normal human experience. How exactly can someone not be capable of understanding the possible rammifications of sex but they can for murder? Its not like you can talk to your boy and find out what it feels like to shoot someone.

 

[dmonty]

This right here will prevent about six of the last ten mass shootings

How would changing the 3 day no response to 10 day no response have prevented a single mass shooting? None of the background checks flagged any criminal acts that would've denied the purchase.

 

[Sean Renaud]

How would changing the 3 day no response to 10 day no response have prevented a single mass shooting? None of the background checks flagged any criminal acts that would've denied the purchase.

I haven't looked into the last ten shootings so I don't think you can make a statement like that. The reality however is that if we had fewer guns we'd have a lot fewer killings.

 

[ll74]

How would changing the 3 day no response to 10 day no response have prevented a single mass shooting? None of the background checks flagged any criminal acts that would've denied the purchase.

The ones where they bought the weapons the same day they shot a bunch of people?

They wouldn't have the weapon the same day

 

[dmonty]

As was already stated the laws are mostly arbitrary and in the US its at least in part our religious legacy. We are descended from people who had a stick so far up their asses that the Brits kicked them out! Can you imagine being so stuck in the mud that Queen Elizabeth (Who was there at the time) kicked you out?

Like the age of consent in the US is 18 that is far from universal either in the states themselves or across the globe.

The age for drinking is 21. This again is not universal by any stretch of the imagination.

Joining the military at 18 is a thing.

I think smoking got bumped up to 21 recently but I don't smoke/vape so I wouldn't have the first clue on that front.

I've always found it disgusting that we believe that a teen can be tried as an adult for things like rape or murder because they 'understand the rammifications' which I mostly agree with. But the majority of people in the world will never directly kill anybody. If indirectly counts then sure, I was aviation ordinance. I have to believe that some of those choppers and jets actually killed someone in Iraq. A lot of us would probably technically qualify as war criminals but oh well, the past is the past.

Most people on the other hand will have sex at some point in their lives. This is a normal human experience. How exactly can someone not be capable of understanding the possible rammifications of sex but they can for murder? Its not like you can talk to your boy and find out what it feels like to shoot someone.

The ones where they bought the weapons the same day they shot a bunch of people?

They wouldn't have the weapon the same day

You have absolutely no idea what your taking about and it shows by the lack of your knowledge on how the NICS system works.

You can only buy a weapon from a federally licensed firearms (FFL) dealer on the same day, if and only if you pass the background check; if the FFL doesn't get a response back from NICS then you wait 3 days [or a response] which ever is sooner.

If the federal criminal background database responds with information, they can complete the sale of no disqualifying hits, if no response they must wait 3 days.

In all these cases they had no disqualifying hits, however if hypothetically the NICS didn't respond the purchaser world have had to wait 3 days, and waiting for 7 days wouldn't have changed what they did. They were cleared to buy with no disqualifying events in their background

 

[dmonty]

I haven't looked into the last ten shootings so I don't think you can make a statement like that. The reality however is that if we had fewer guns we'd have a lot fewer killings.

Well I have, and the background checks NICS no response didn't occur, for the last 10 shootings [not even for the last 70+ shootings], they all passed the background checks, so they wouldn't have been subjected to the 3 or even 10 day delay.

 

[butters]

exactly

no 'cooling off' period for anyone undergoing a mental crisis, on drugs, a hater out for revenge on a partner or someone they feel OUGHT NOT to have rejected them, and so on and so on and so on. They may never have been in trouble with the law, never got caught for doing anything bad, never been referred for mental health checks... a 3-7 day cooling off period has stopped a lot of gun violence according to police AND licensed sellers.

 

[dmonty]

exactly

no 'cooling off' period for anyone undergoing a mental crisis, on drugs, a hater out for revenge on a partner or someone they feel OUGHT NOT to have rejected them, and so on and so on and so on. They may never have been in trouble with the law, never got caught for doing anything bad, never been referred for mental health checks... a 3-7 day cooling off period has stopped a lot of gun violence according to police AND licensed sellers.

Name a single instance and not just your unsubstantiated logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum.

However, much research has been done on cooling off periods...

https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/waiting-periods.html


https://www.politifact.com/factchec...dence-waiting-period-handgun-purchases-reduc/


Waiting Periods
Waiting periods are arbitrary impositions with no effect on crime or suicide, introduce no additional investigative avenues, and only burden law-abiding gun owners without changing how or when criminals obtain firearms.
Waiting periods do not change the background check process; no additional investigative measures are taken no matter how long of a waiting period is imposed. Most background checks are resolved instantly, but investigations can currently last up to 90 days.

There is no evidence that waiting periods reduce suicides, homicides, or mass shootings. No studies that identify causal effects have been identified by any of the independent literature reviews conducted since 2004

The average time-to-crime for firearms traced by the BATFE in 2018 was nearly nine years, so the idea that guns are often used in crimes of passion or impulsive actions right after purchase is not supported by anything other than anecdotal evidence.

Most gun-owners own more than one firearm and a waiting period could not possibly have an effect on those purchasing an additional firearm. First-time buyers seeking a firearm for self-defense would be affected by a waiting period that limits their ability to safeguard themselves and their loved ones.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Well I have, and the background checks NICS no response didn't occur, for the last 10 shootings [not even for the last 70+ shootings], they all passed the background checks, so they wouldn't have been subjected to the 3 or even 10 day delay.

I said fewer guns period. You know you don't have to lie to kick it right?

 

[dmonty]

I said fewer guns period. You know you don't have to lie to kick it right?

Fewer guns in citizens hands always results in more crimes and violence.... less guns more crime, it's an empirical fact

 

[Sean Renaud]

Fewer guns in citizens hands always results in more crimes and violence.... less guns more crime, it's an empirical fact

Actually no its not, violent crime is much worse in the US than in any comprable nation and on a state by state basis the South and MidWest are more dangerous than the the North East or West. This is backed by the FBI records. For all the talk about Chicago, Kansas City is more dangerous.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Fewer guns in citizens hands always results in more crimes and violence.... less guns more crime, it's an empirical fact

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurab...ties-its-not-where-you-think/?sh=3adb35147710

Forbes isn't exactly left leaning and they got their research from the FBI. Which I have also cited multiple times.

While I'm not gonna dig through all your shit since you didn't do a great job of labeling it the idea that the average time between purchase and use in a crime (how the fuck do they even measure that?) is 9 years doesn't mean they aren't crimes of passion. Fewer guns would reduce the number of deaths.

This isn't even something that can be inteligently argued. You don't see these kinds of numbers anywhere else in the industrialized world. Nobody cares how many peopled died in Afghanistan last week or in Nicorouga.

 

[jaF0]

and only burden law-abiding gun owners

OH NOES!!! We can't has thats cans we?

Poor widdle law 'abidin' boomboomers !!!!

 

[jaF0]

You fucking pissy ass boomboomers are making the argument that it's time to fully outlaw all boombooms, ban all sales and possession of boombooms and anything related to them.

 

[ll74]

You have absolutely no idea what your taking about and it shows by the lack of your knowledge on how the NICS system works.

You can only buy a weapon from a federally licensed firearms (FFL) dealer on the same day, if and only if you pass the background check; if the FFL doesn't get a response back from NICS then you wait 3 days [or a response] which ever is sooner.

If the federal criminal background database responds with information, they can complete the sale of no disqualifying hits, if no response they must wait 3 days.

In all these cases they had no disqualifying hits, however if hypothetically the NICS didn't respond the purchaser world have had to wait 3 days, and waiting for 7 days wouldn't have changed what they did. They were cleared to buy with no disqualifying events in their background

I don't truly care why a weapon gets same day delivery before a killing. I care that it does. When gunmen go from the gun store to a school to shoot at kids, this isnt acceptable and needs to change.

 

[dmonty]

I don't truly care why a weapon gets same day delivery before a killing. I care that it does. When gunmen go from the gun store to a school to shoot at kids, this isnt acceptable and needs to change.

Please cite a single instance of same day purchase and school shooting....

 

[ll74]

Please cite a single instance of same day purchase and school shooting....

Tulsa gunman bought an AR-15 the day of the mass shooting and targeted his doctor


Oh right....because your focused on demonstrating that it did happen rather than whether it could. If this can happen at the doctor, it can happen at a school. Fuck off with your pedantry

 

[dmonty]

Tulsa gunman bought an AR-15 the day of the mass shooting and targeted his doctor


Oh right....because your focused on demonstrating that it did happen rather than whether it could. If this can happen at the doctor, it can happen at a school. Fuck off with your pedantry

Ah because the pedantry is also important in legal arguments/debates....

And because you missed the "The shooter also purchased a semiautomatic handgun on May 29 from a pawn shop." So the background check completed weeks later on the AR-15, purchase neither flagged any disqualifying reason to purchase. So what would an extra 10 days have solved?

 

[ll74]

Ah because the pedantry is also important in legal arguments/debates....

And because you missed the "The shooter also purchased a semiautomatic handgun on May 29 from a pawn shop." So the background check completed weeks later on the AR-15, purchase neither flagged any disqualifying reason to purchase. So what would an extra 10 days have solved?

I'm not making a legal argument.

Extra time allows for better background checks and in many cases eliminates an impulse shooting.

 

[dmonty]

As was already stated the laws are mostly arbitrary and in the US its at least in part our religious legacy. We are descended from people who had a stick so far up their asses that the Brits kicked them out! Can you imagine being so stuck in the mud that Queen Elizabeth (Who was there at the time) kicked you out?

Like the age of consent in the US is 18 that is far from universal either in the states themselves or across the globe.

The age for drinking is 21. This again is not universal by any stretch of the imagination.

Joining the military at 18 is a thing.

I think smoking got bumped up to 21 recently but I don't smoke/vape so I wouldn't have the first clue on that front.

I've always found it disgusting that we believe that a teen can be tried as an adult for things like rape or murder because they 'understand the rammifications' which I mostly agree with. But the majority of people in the world will never directly kill anybody. If indirectly counts then sure, I was aviation ordinance. I have to believe that some of those choppers and jets actually killed someone in Iraq. A lot of us would probably technically qualify as war criminals but oh well, the past is the past.

Most people on the other hand will have sex at some point in their lives. This is a normal human experience. How exactly can someone not be capable of understanding the possible rammifications of sex but they can for murder? Its not like you can talk to your boy and find out what it feels like to shoot someone.

In the United States of America the fixing of the age of majority is a matter for the State legislatures subject to whatever restrictions may be imposed by the Constitutions of the individual States. Unless a State has exercised its power to fix an age of majority the age of majority is the common law age of 21 years.

Prior to 1970 the age of majority was 21 years in most of the States. The exceptions were Kentucky where the age was 18, Alaska where it was 19 and Hawaii where it was 20. In Arkansas, Idaho, Illinois, Montana, Nevada, North Dakota, Oklahoma, and Utah the age of majority was 21 years for males and 18 for females.

In 1971 the Twenty-Sixth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America became law. This Amendment provides that the right of a citizen of the United States who is eighteen years of age or older to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States, or by any State, on account of age. After this Amendment of the Constitution a number of States altered the age of majority. At present 31 States – Alaska, Arizona, California, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho, Illinois, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming – have fixed the age of majority at 18.

Exceptions remain such as:
In Iowa, Montana and Nebraska the age was fixed at 19, whereas in Hawaii it is 20.

In Arkansas and Nevada the age of majority is 21 years for males and 18 years for females. There may be some doubt, as Stanton v Stanton only resolved Female "21"/Male "18" disparity, not the Female "18"/Male "21" disparity.

If the statutes fixing the age of majority in each of these two States are valid having regard to the decision of the United States Supreme Court in Stanton v. Stanton (421 U.S. 7 (1975)In the Stanton case the U.S. Supreme Court, in the context of child support, held that the section in the Utah legislation fixing these ages denied the equal protection of the laws as guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment in that no valid distinction might be drawn on the basis of sex only. Since then Utah amended the statute to make 18 years the age of majority for both sexes;

Prior to 1975 the age of majority in Utah was 21 years for males and 18 years for females.).
In the remaining States of the U.S.A., and in the District of Columbia, the age of majority is 21 years.

Under Roman Law the power of a father (patria potestas) over his children was supreme. A child, irrespective of his age or personal distinction, was subject to patria potestas unless he was emancipated.

In those legal systems that are derived from the Civil Law (Roman Law) the concept of emancipation still exists in respect of persons who have not reached the age of majority. Emancipation may be secured –
(a) by marriage, or
(b) with the consent of the minor's parents or guardians, from a magistrate or a family court.
In those legal systems that are derived from the Common Law emancipation of minors is generally unknown. Included among the European countries that do not have emancipation are Cyprus, Denmark, Ireland, the United Kingdom, Norway and Sweden. However, in many legal systems, capacity is given to a minor to act in several respects as if he had reached the age of majority. For example, in Denmark,

 

[dmonty]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurab...ties-its-not-where-you-think/?sh=3adb35147710

Forbes isn't exactly left leaning and they got their research from the FBI. Which I have also cited multiple times.

While I'm not gonna dig through all your shit since you didn't do a great job of labeling it the idea that the average time between purchase and use in a crime (how the fuck do they even measure that?) is 9 years doesn't mean they aren't crimes of passion. Fewer guns would reduce the number of deaths.

This isn't even something that can be inteligently argued. You don't see these kinds of numbers anywhere else in the industrialized world. Nobody cares how many peopled died in Afghanistan last week or in Nicorouga.

Never said that there aren't crimes of passion, but the NICS system would never prevent any of those.

And since you need me to do your Google searches apparently.

According to the most recent ATF statistics, released in August, the bureau traced 332,101 guns in 2018. The average time-to-crime of those weapons was 8.8 years.
https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/firearms-trace-data-2018

More stats, more guns less crime
Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun
https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/jclc/vol86/iss1/8/

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/EncyGunsInAmerSociety/Defensive-Gun-Use.htm


Defensive gun use isn't a myth
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/02/defensive-gun-ownership-gary-kleck-response-115082

Carrying Guns for Protection: Results from the National Self-Defense Survey
GARY KLECK, MARC GERTZ
First Published May 1, 1998 Research Article
https://doi.org/10.1177/0022427898035002004

Whose funding the gun control and gun rights agendas

https://www.opensecrets.org/news/issues/guns


http://www2.umf.maine.edu/flyer/arc...swer-and-what-we-can-do-to-stop-gun-violence/


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6800291/


https://time.com/4100408/a-criminologists-case-against-gun-control/?amp=true


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...3edca6-a851-11e7-92d1-58c702d2d975_story.html


https://www.thoughtco.com/dr-gary-kleck-721556


http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-policy-info/guns-in-other-countries/





https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/costs-consequences-gun-control

https://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp


1998.... was the first and only time that the US was first in Mass Shooting Events. Coincidentally, that occurred a few years after President Bill Clinton's unconstitutional "assault rifle ban"(1994), thankfully this unconstitutional law that actually had a direct correlation on the community safety stats to plummet had a built in 10 year expiration date on the law.

Since the law expired, more guns less crime improved community safety, except where additional unconstitutional state laws are enforced and continue to be passed

Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2018/12/media-spin-usa-not-1st-mass-shootings-63rd/#ixzz6P0uuCzFb




Just another independent empirical research study that proved all gun control laws make people less safe and victims to criminals and governments. All gun laws are unconstitutional.

It's long been shown by John Lott, Jr. that shall-issue states have lower rates of every type of violent crime than may-issue or no-issue states. In addition, studies that try to create the impression otherwise use the measure "gun crimes" or "gun murders," thus ignoring the effect of having firearms on deterring murders with a knife, blunt object, strangulation with a rope, or personal weapons, and also counting cases in which a murderer used a different weapon as if the murder had been prevented.

Often, they even use the deceptive "gun deaths" stat, which counts people switching the method of omitting suicide as if it were a suicide prevented.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/l...cealed-carry-does-not-increase-violent-crime/

The FBI doesn't track gun ownership rates and they are difficult to estimate since luckily there is no national gun registry but here are some estimates from a sources referenced in a gun control article I read.

http://demographicdata.org/facts-and-figures/gun-ownership-statistics/


One small problem with their statistic that guns are the 2nd leading cause of death in children.... If you use the FBI/DOJ stats they include children as those aged 0-24 years old, with the vast majority of gun fatalities coming from "gang violence" and those aged between 14 and 24 years old. But hey no reason for the anti-gun media to identify this.

Once you take the children definition to kids aged 0-18 years old and exclude "gang violence" its not even a top 50, but even if you keep "gang violence" it still falls out of the top 10



Many anti- gun studies ignoring common accepted scientific methods.

For instance a copy of Dr. Langford’s gun violence / mass shootings study, be sure to point out that the “study” was dubiously published without sources or methods, and without peer review. It’s not a scholarly study at all.

Not only does he refuse to provide his sources and methods to those who ask from pro-gun organizations and conservative news, he also won’t won’t give them to neutral news sources, like Real Clear Politics, or even left-leaning ones like the Washington Post.

Among his suspicious, undisclosed methods, it appears he uses his own special definition of “mass shooting”, which for some reason doesn’t include terrorist attacks, at least outside of the US.

We can only speculate on the full extent of his dubious data manipulations, since he is keeping the source data and methods out of the light.


https://www.ammoland.com/2018/09/ad...ing-study-called-into-question/#axzz5S8D4Sypf


Anti-gun campaigners caught distorting stats and outright lying to push the agenda.

Coalition to Stop Gun Violence (Hired Guns to Stop Gun Ownership might be a better name for them, and no, we’re not going to link to them to drive them any traffic) claimed that the murder rate in Murder City, USA – Chicago, IL – is but a mere 6.4 homicides per 100,000 people in an effort to prove that Chicago’s antiquated strict gun control laws work.

In the small print at the bottom of the page, it notes the statistic refers to the Chicago “Metropolitan Statistical Area”, not Chicago proper. The Chicago MSA covers territory from Indiana to Wisconsin! Most folks don’t realize that though.

The REAL homicide rate for the CITY of Chicago, which has the anti-gun laws that they want to legislate and enforce elsewhere in the country, is 15.94/100k for the year of 2011. Nearly 3x's as high as they tried to lie about in their graphic.