A Hateful Sentence

[cantdog]

I didn't get an agenda. I'm not even invited to the meeting.

I'm pretty sure you're right, partly.

 

[CharleyH]

I didn't get an agenda. I'm not even invited to the meeting.

I'm pretty sure you're right, partly.

nods

 

[LadyJeanne]

I didn't get an agenda. I'm not even invited to the meeting.

I'm pretty sure you're right, partly.

I think I got the agenda but it gave me a paper cut and I bled all over it. So now, I just blindly bleed words onto electronic pages.

 

[English Lady]

I think I got the agenda but it gave me a paper cut and I bled all over it. So now, I just blindly bleed words onto electronic pages.

very poetic

 

[cantdog]

She read my poem, I bet.

We poets, us, we're all sponges, sopping up impressions from the wonderful and darkly insane world around us... And what the devil are we all talking about now, anyway? Oh yeah, Zoot and the sentence.

 

[neonlyte]

It might be interesting to look at doc's recent thread on SDC where he explains he is finding difficulty in working on this story following the SDC crits. Judging by the number of views, not many have taken the trouble.

For what it's worth, I think he posted this sentence because he's genuinely concerned with the readership impact this single sentence has on the entire story. It's a compact expression of Lia's character near the outset of the story and appears to generate opposing responses. Trying to establish a wider audience opinion is sensible.

 

[CharleyH]

It might be interesting to look at doc's recent thread on SDC where he explains he is finding difficulty in working on this story following the SDC crits. Judging by the number of views, not many have taken the trouble.

For what it's worth, I think he posted this sentence because he's genuinely concerned with the readership impact this single sentence has on the entire story. It's a compact expression of Lia's character near the outset of the story and appears to generate opposing responses. Trying to establish a wider audience opinion is sensible.

Yes, the SDC has been slow of late, and I was half-joking, half not. I will take a look and give my spin good or ill toward this sentance. I still believe, and not semiotically, because I am uncertain where it fits into the context of story, not grammatically, because I am not qualified to comment on that, but from a simple reading here - how does it sound standpoint, it DOES remind me of an LSAT: this and so that and therefore this, with the added or . . .

 

[impressive]

Yes, the SDC has been slow of late, and I was half-joking, half not. I will take a look and give my spin good or ill toward this sentance. I still believe, and not semiotically, because I am uncertain where it fits into the context of story, not grammatically, because I am not qualified to comment on that, but from a simple reading here - how does it sound standpoint, it DOES remind me of an LSAT: this and so that and therefore this, with the added or . . .

I thought the LSAT was fun -- but I'm odd.

 

[CharleyH]

I thought the LSAT was fun -- but I'm odd.

Logic games are always fun I bought another book just because I love them - lol - really :| lol, I am sad.

 

[neonlyte]

Yes, the SDC has been slow of late, and I was half-joking, half not. I will take a look and give my spin good or ill toward this sentance. I still believe, and not semiotically, because I am uncertain where it fits into the context of story, not grammatically, because I am not qualified to comment on that, but from a simple reading here - how does it sound standpoint, it DOES remind me of an LSAT: this and so that and therefore this, with the added or . . .

Agreed. Judging the sentence in isolation is difficult - it's possible that was his singular objective.

 

[Lady Lay]

Originally Posted by dr_mabeuse
Candy had a weight problem and so was no competition for Lia, therefore they were friends, or close enough.

I’ve read the doc’s story and I think he’s trying to create a very self centered, egotistical young lady but the sentence does need work.

It reminds me of a toon I run into each morning in my favorite online game. I laugh each time I hear him. His quote is:

“I truly don’t care if you live or die so long as you don’t impede on my agenda.”

 

[BlackShanglan]

Of course, lately I'm thinking everyone has an agenda

Hmmmm. What's yours? Are you in the pay of the National China and Glass Marketing Board, mmm? Or possibly the Northwest Fisheries' Alliance?

Shanglan

 

[BigAndTall]

I would say that if your sentence is meant to get that kind of reaction, than it is perfect.

 

[Softouch911]

Just to say it again: No problem with the sentence at SDC or now. To read it as an offensive comment by the author, you have to ignore the pov at that point. I think it's one of Lia's better bits of characterization.

Softie -- pretty sure for once.

 

[wishfulthinking]

I was offended enough that when I came across it I had to re-read it and ask myself 'Is he saying what I think he is?'. I didn't say anything over at the SDC because several other people had gone to pains to criticise it, and didn't feel the urge to add my additional 2 cents.

What is offensive is that the sentence comes across as that the author or society views voluptuous women as no competition. I know this wasn't what was intended at all, but no doubt you would find yourself instantly trolled, regardless of how brilliant the rest of the story is.

I know Penny re-worded it to try and explain the point, but I'll try something identical or similar that meets my standard of pc :

"Lia saw Candy as no competition because her friend was fat/chunky/bulky."

If you are going to be bitchy, you aren't going to say 'overweight' - hence, probably more confusion as to who is offering this view.

Rant over

 

[elsol]

A sentence in a story I posted in the Story Discussion Circle stirred up some real concern and dislike. I'm curious as to what people think.

Here's the scene: Lia, a very ambitious and predatory career woman, is in the Ladies' room at an awards dinner, plotting to put the moves on some guy who can help her career. Her friend comes in, and here's the sentence:

Candy had a weight problem and so was no competition for Lia, therefore they were friends, or close enough.

That's all I'm going to say. I'm not even going to tell you what the objections were. I'd like to hear people's reactions.

---dr.M.

I had a story once... where the narrator killed a 'freak', classified and judged that way because of the color of their hair. In class, every 'freak' threw a shit fit. I thought it was amusing, because as soon as I wrote the piece I knew they were going to 'freak'.

The problem with the sentence is as follows. The narrator is expressing an opinion, and not the character. Sounds like the surrounding narration is third-person impersonal... well, this is a personal opinion.

If it said 'Lia didn't think Candy was competition because of her weight problem, therefore she could be friends with Candy.' (or somemat)

Then clearly, the narrator is talking about Lia's opinion and view of the world. This way... the narrator is giving a 'truism', and you're going to get killed for it.

As to skinny women seeing fat women as non-competition, I'm latin... no hips, no dipping my wick.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[BlackShanglan]

The problem with the sentence is as follows. The narrator is expressing an opinion, and not the character. Sounds like the surrounding narration is third-person impersonal... well, this is a personal opinion.

A fair point, but I would argue that we can't tell from that small of a snippet whether the rest of the narration is voiced or impersonal. I for one would really hate to see the beautiful art of third person voiced narration shot down because of an author/character confusion. I think Dr. M's done fine work there.

Shanglan

 

[ABSTRUSE]

If that sentence wasn't pointed out I would have gone right over it. Doc, it's a great story, don't fret over a few words.

 

[lucky-E-leven]

What is offensive is that the sentence comes across as that the author or society views voluptuous women as no competition. I know this wasn't what was intended at all, but no doubt you would find yourself instantly trolled, regardless of how brilliant the rest of the story is.

I think society absolutely views overweight people as somehow inferior. It's a sad state of affairs, and I don't agree whatsoever, but it's a widely held paradigm in this country for sure. I understand it's different in different cultures, but I have heard people say similar statements damn near verbatim.

I know Penny re-worded it to try and explain the point, but I'll try something identical or similar that meets my standard of pc :

"Lia saw Candy as no competition because her friend was fat/chunky/bulky."

If you are going to be bitchy, you aren't going to say 'overweight' - hence, probably more confusion as to who is offering this view.

Rant over

I disagree here too. (Not to be a jerk, I just do.) Most of the success-hungry people I know are grotesquely PC on the surface and are somehow able to convince themselves that they're being polite by using 'overweight' in place of fat. The matter of viewing her as no competition is simply Darwinism at its finest; twisted right up in the logic of a shallow, 'win-or-die-trying' woman on her way up the corporate ladder.

This point is kind of moot in this situation, as I read this sentence as being an internal thought process of Lia's. No one hears it except the reader. Her actions later on may be obvious, but her prim & proper exterior (facade) exists internally as well, only it doesn't hold a candle to her drive for success.

~lucky

 

[wishfulthinking]

Disagree all you want!

I agree that people would verbally use the word 'overwieght' in an attempt to convince themselves and others of being pc. But while someone might say to another "you're not fat, just curvy" while thinking "Whoa, stop eating before you overdose on cholesterol."

I know Doc meant nothing by that sentence, but the way it is written it comes across to me that a male author is saying she is fat and therefore no competition/inferiour/unworthy whatever. That is why I think he would get trolled.

The sentence walks a very fine tight rope, and Doc should be comfortable not changing it, but I'm just saying beware

As to society's view - yes it is, but does that mean we should reinforce it in erotica?

 

[lucky-E-leven]

Disagree all you want!

I agree that people would verbally use the word 'overwieght' in an attempt to convince themselves and others of being pc. But while someone might say to another "you're not fat, just curvy" while thinking "Whoa, stop eating before you overdose on cholesterol."

I know Doc meant nothing by that sentence, but the way it is written it comes across to me that a male author is saying she is fat and therefore no competition/inferiour/unworthy whatever. That is why I think he would get trolled.

The sentence walks a very fine tight rope, and Doc should be comfortable not changing it, but I'm just saying beware

As to society's view - yes it is, but does that mean we should reinforce it in erotica?

I understand what you're saying, but maintain that I have known people that would never admit to themselves, under penalty of death or intense hypnosis or anything else, that they ever said or thought someone else was 'fat'. It's a conditioned behavior that helps them sail through life with the ability to pass underlying judgments about weight/competition and not feel remorse for it.

I think we're doomed if society is basing its opinions on written erotica. If that's the case, Rape and Incest statistics should be astronomical. I guess I feel that it's a general enough categorization and that the author is merely capturing it, rather than endorsing it.



~lucky

 

[gauchecritic]

Candy had a weight problem and so was no competition for Lia, therefore they were friends, or close enough.

---dr.M.

I'll tell ya what's wrong with it, it stinks; that's what's wrong with it.

The weight being a problem is from one of two sources, Candy or the author. Either one, doesn't matter. The non-competition is a result of the weight problem, again the source doesn't matter. What matters is that there is no therefore.

The implication of therefore is that fat and thin people are naturally friendly to each other. That fat people are insecure about their weight. That thin people are glad that fat people exist. That if they were both thin (or fat) they couldn't be friends.

Cut the therefore or explain who is actually thinking this.

 

[sweetnpetite]

"Lia saw Candy as no competition because her friend was fat/chunky/bulky."

If you are going to be bitchy, you aren't going to say 'overweight' - hence, probably more confusion as to who is offering this view.

Rant over

I don't know. Some people are so *nice* when they are being bitchy. At least that's my experience. Especially if she doesn't see herself as being bitchy, she just assumes (as most people do) that everyone feels the same way about things as she does.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I understand what you're saying, but maintain that I have known people that would never admit to themselves, under penalty of death or intense hypnosis or anything else, that they ever said or thought someone else was 'fat'. It's a conditioned behavior that helps them sail through life with the ability to pass underlying judgments about weight/competition and not feel remorse for it.

Without wishing to be antogonizingly provocative - how would one know about these sorts of deeply internal workings? How might one know or judge the thought processes of another person?

Shanglan

 

[Dar~]

I used to be one of those women. The ones who'd think I was sexier therefore better than other women I hung around with. Fortunately, I grew up. I think that really gets to the truth of their friendship with out mincing words. I applaud the sentence.