A Man Has a Right to Control HIs Own Wallet

[sweetnpetite]

It's a fact that rich people have fewer kids, and poor people spawn like rabbits with little or no regard for the consequences on their kids. When I'm king, women who are on public assistance will be sterilized after the second child. At least that way, the social cost will be minimized.

Ok, that's the attitude that pissed me off.

I was about to appologize for misunderstanding you until that line. Maybe you work with kids who's parents were/are on assistance who don't take care of there kids, but that doesn't mean that everyone on assistance neglects or abuses there kids. Now, I also realize that you didn't quite say that. Just that we are breeders and leaches. Hell, I've been off assistance for years now, and I still identify- oh well. I'm poor and I have three kids. Sorry we burden your society. Geuss my youngest should have never been born.

 

[sweetnpetite]

If you were one of the people whose children Seattle Zack was trying to help, you could cop a bit less of an attitude about his frustration.

Yes, it's irresponsible to have children you can't care for. I'm glad your life has worked out so that you can care for yours, but that doesn't give you the right to condemn women who chose not to do so.

That really is what this is about for you. You called women in this forum murderers - called their doctors murderers - to justify your own choice. No one would have condemned you for saying, "I couldn't imagine having an abortion, but I can understand why other women might have chosen differently." But instead, you decided to demonize one of the resources that exist for women who find themselves pregnant and can't deal with it in your particular way.

Choice.

You made yours.

Let others make their own.

I don't condemn women who choose not to care for there children. My problem is with women who choose to =terminate= them. You will not accept the fact that I truly believe an fetus/embryo to be alive. If you looked at it from that point of view, just long enough to understand were I am coming from, you would see why I say that it is murder. The best that I could ever hope to say about an abortion is that it may have been a 'justifiable homiside' When I read your words, you seem to say that it's justifiable, therefor its' not killiing. I don't think that just becaus there may be reasons, even good reasons that it is not killing. I dont' say that to be viscous or mean.

When you say 'find themselves pregnant' to me that means 'find themselves with life growing inside of them.' human life, not potential for. I agree that it's not fair, but from that point of view you can't just have an abortion and 'unmake' the problem. It has nothing to do with justifying my own decision. Your choice is to let the life continue to grow or kill it. There is no other way to end life.It doen't just evaporate.

I think that because this little life is tiny and inside were it can't be seenn, it's easy to imagine that it just 'went away' Life doens't just go away, it dies. Life is not an oppinion, there are scientific qualifications for what is alive and what is not.

I'm tired, it's my birthday. Goodnight.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I'm sure we all understand and appreciate the difficulties and sacrifices you've gone through to raise your own progeny, SnP, but why is it so difficult to admit that it might not have been the best choice? Maybe going to college (which was never an option once you had a child), actually planning for children rather than having them suddenly thrust upon you?

What makes you assume that I didn't go to college? I did, I went and I had two kids at the time. I also know lots of moms in college, or various diferent ages. Maybe I'd be a millionare right now if I'd have made different choices. Maybe not.

I do know that before I got pregnant the first time, I was about to fail out of highschool. Then I got pregnant and everyone expected me to fail. I graduated with my class, with one B and all my other grades A's.

I think more girls could do the same, if they belived that they could. If we said, hey, stay in school, it's important for your baby and yourself, rather than- oh now your a mom, you're going to have to drop out.

**

Happy birthday to me. I'm 29 today. (March 1)

shereads said:
Ironically enough, the pro-life movement draws most of its support from the right-wing extremists who want to end funding for those social services. That's the most frustrating thing about this. We're fighting an uphill battle against a group of Reagan-worshippers who think they can wish away teenaged pregnancy by "protecting the sanctity of marriage" and removing sex education from the schools and limiting access to birth control and condoms to students (because offering affordable or free birth control will make kids decide to have sex) and who don't want their taxes to pay for school breakfasts, afer-school care for working mothers who work the wrong hours to be at home with their children.

SNP said:

I guess that's what makes me a moderate. I'm opposite all that. I believe in sex ed, birthcontrol, gay marriage, after school care, and free luch (even though all that's just me making a mighty drain on society when you come to think about it.) I'm not really in a movement. I just state my mind.

I read somewere that girls who believe that having sex is wrong are less likely to use birth control, but not less likely to have sex. I know that in my own case, that was true. I will teach my daughter that the decision is hers and hers alone when she will have sex and that there is nothing wrong or sinful about it, but that it is important for her to protect herself. I think every girl (and boy) should be taught that. Sex should be considered to be a health issue, a relationship issue and a personal issue and not a moral one. I am not a right winger. I just believe that a fetus is a person.

Lucky said:

I'm not here to bash your life experiences, SnP. But is it safe to say that a large part of the reason you're pro-life is because you can't imagine life without your particular kids and believe that since you managed to make it work beneath such hardships that all others can and will as well?

~lucky

I don't know. I was pro-life when I got pregnant the first time. I've changed a lot of views since then, but not that one. Others can make it work, why couldn't they? I'm not trying to be glib, but people have done better than me, people have done worse than me. Having a kid doent' garantee either way, nor does not having a kid. It's only one factor. I know a girl who 'had to have an abortion' cause she got pregnant in highschool. She had the abortion, and later dropped out for other reasons. At 20 she didn't have her GED she was in a fucked up relationship and she missed her family. She got pregnant, had a daughter, things got about 100times worse for her, she ended up in jail and they gave her an option of going back to her home state or going to jail. Having no other choice, she went home- leaving the bad relationship behind. Oh yeah, and she's working on that GED finally If you'd have looked at her when she got pregant and seen the relationship she was in, you'd have thought a baby could only make it worse (even I thought that) If she hadn't had the baby she'd still be with the guy. I'm not saying she *should* have had the baby in those circomstances, but you can't predict life's chain of events.

I'm upset by the idea that most women have that having a baby at an inopertune time will ruin there lives. I suppose it could, but there is no reason that it has to. Before you give birth isn't the only time in your life that you are presented with choices. The choices you make after giving birth determine weather or not you ruin your life, not just that one.

 

[Pure]

The issue of child support obligations has been debated within the 'libertarian' community. Rothbard apparently denied there were such while affirming, on a non religious basis, a strong right to abortion.

http://www.l4l.org/library/rothopen.html

An Open Letter to Murray Rothbard on Andre Marrou, the Libertarian Party, and that "vexing" hole in the libertarian system , from Doris Gordon
===

Children's rights versus Murray Rothbards 'Ethics of Liberty.' by John Walker

http://www.l4l.org/library/chilroth.html

======

It's a tricky question in some cases, as for instance where there's disagreement about abortion, and the woman wants never to see the man again beginning at that point, as is her right. But certainly I agree with the continuing obligations of a person who's been married(or equiv.) and had children. And with the tracking of 'deadbeats.'

J.

 

[shereads]

I'm upset by the idea that most women have that having a baby at an inopertune time will ruin there lives. I suppose it could, but there is no reason that it has to. Before you give birth isn't the only time in your life that you are presented with choices. The choices you make after giving birth determine weather or not you ruin your life, not just that one.

It would be great if every mother were able to overcome the obstacles. But you're dealing with human nature here. There are so many people who can't hold a job even in a good job market; whose social skills are so poor, and whose opinion of themselves and their prospects in life are so low, that for them to bring children into that equation is a disaster for both. Not all women are as capable of you were, able to overcome the obstacles of homelessness, able to attend school and somehow care for their children at the same time. It's not society telling them they can't; it's society recognizing the pattern and not wanting to make the problem of unwanted, under-cared-for children even worse by denying these women the option of abortion.

It's also unfortunate that a lot of teenaged mothers live in communities where the only value a woman has is that she provides her man with sex, and becomes a mother. I'm not implying that you were one of those people; I'm talking about the predominance of teenaged mothers and fatherless homes in inner city poverty pockets. For a certain tragic segment of society, becoming a mother is a badge of adulthood, just as joining a gang is a passage into manhood. The availability of birth control and abortion won't solve that problem. But adding to the problem by making any of the options unavailable only means there are fewer and more thinly spread social services for the children who are born.

 

[SlickTony]

Something changes in your heart," says Adams, 51, a dentist in Traverse City, Mich. "When she walks through the door, you're seeing the product of an affair."

Jesus, that poor kid. What did she do to deserve losing the love and affection she thought she had?