A monster in the making.

[butters]

the mother needs the support to be able to assume the proper role of parent, to not feel browbeaten into being controlled again and that she is capable of making suitable decisions

the kid needs to know he doesn't need to try and fill the gap of a parent in control, that he can safely allow himself to be a kid and feel secure that he's being parented

the relationship is out of balance; help from external sources will be a good thing if they can be accessed, but support from friends and family are even more important.

 

[FL30]

Tell me what you would/wouldn't do or say in this situation.

You know a single mum of a pubescent boy. His father is a manipulative controller, but was never violent. His mother has been conditioned by years of mental and emotional abuse, and is all too easily bullied and browbeaten into compliance.
The boy, despite barely being in his teens, is making (not unsuccessful) attempts to take control of the house. To the point where he believes he has the right to decide which car she should buy, how much of her wages she is allowed to spend on herself, and how the maintenance from his father is spent (it should be put into his personal account for when he wants to buy a car). His latest demand is that they move house to his preferred neighborhood.
He stays up all night on his multiple phones, computers, TVs, and frequently wakes her up with either the volume or his demands to fix an issue.
He has violent tantrums when he doesn't get his own way, but can also carry out a prolonged period of hostility and browbeating.
She has taken on large debts in order to pander to his various demands, but each time one is met another immediately arrises to take it's place.

What you see in the future? He's going to be a domestic abuser. No child is born bad, but this is how badness is made.

You've talked to her, and she understands in theory, but the reality is that he's with her and working on her every day and he's broken down almost every scrap of her resolve and authority. At this point, it's like trying to talk a battered wife into taking her husband in hand.

What do you do?

She's already LOST control and therefore can never get it back because he has already defeated her.

If she does try to stand up to him she is likely to get hurt by him because he will lose control in a temper tantrum.

She needs to get someone else to take control and turn this POS into a respectable boy.

 

[Comshaw]

Spare the Rod and Spoil the Child.

FUCK THAT SHIT! If you can't discipline your child without hitting them, you aren't much of a parent or human being for that matter. Neither of my kids ever had a hand laid on them. My son is now a police detective, my daughter a nearshore biologist. I made the determination that I would never use corporal punishment on them before they were born. My oldman used it, a lot. I won't go into the details but suffice it to say I carry momentos of his use of willow switches.


Comshaw

 

[doowdniw]

Probably would be.

If Spearechucker HAD ACTUALLY SAID "Marine air arm" instead of "Air force."

So if he had instead said, "It's like trying to compare the Marine air arm to the Marines", you would probably agree with me? You know you're not really making any sense, right? This is really all just performance art for you, isn't it?

 

[Debbie]

the mother needs the support to be able to assume the proper role of parent, to not feel browbeaten into being controlled again and that she is capable of making suitable decisions

the kid needs to know he doesn't need to try and fill the gap of a parent in control, that he can safely allow himself to be a kid and feel secure that he's being parented

the relationship is out of balance; help from external sources will be a good thing if they can be accessed, but support from friends and family are even more important.

I agree. Don't give up on the boy.

dolf, is there support where the mum is to do with child services? Not to remove him from the home but support with counselling? Ideas she can use and get some emotional and physical support.

One of my step sons went to a great school with a home liaison officer (sort of a social worker) and when his mate went off the rails after the boys dad went to jail the liaison officer got the boy and his family in to anger management programs, camps, sports and a lot more to help them out.

 

[SpeareChucker]

I wouldn't say that because, for all my flaws, I'm not a completely callous arsehole who believes children are disposable.

Or should be beaten...

 

[dolf]

I agree. Don't give up on the boy.

dolf, is there support where the mum is to do with child services? Not to remove him from the home but support with counselling? Ideas she can use and get some emotional and physical support.

One of my step sons went to a great school with a home liaison officer (sort of a social worker) and when his mate went off the rails after the boys dad went to jail the liaison officer got the boy and his family in to anger management programs, camps, sports and a lot more to help them out.

Child mental health is chronically underfunded here. As are social services. The school has been threatening exclusion, but she's talked them into trying to find some sort of support for him instead... It may or may not bear fruit, and it might take years of pushing for anything to happen.

Or should be beaten...

The resort of parents who lack either self control, or the ability to take control any other way.

 

[surdeep]

If anyone needs a boot in the ass, it’s that boy.

 

[HisArpy]

FUCK THAT SHIT! If you can't discipline your child without hitting them, you aren't much of a parent or human being for that matter. Neither of my kids ever had a hand laid on them. My son is now a police detective, my daughter a nearshore biologist. I made the determination that I would never use corporal punishment on them before they were born. My oldman used it, a lot. I won't go into the details but suffice it to say I carry momentos of his use of willow switches.


Comshaw

Lol.

You poor little idjit. Thinking that the ONLY tool in the toolbox is a paddle is where you went wrong.

Posting that thought on the GB was your second mistake.



It's no fucking wonder you support the Democrats.

 

[HisArpy]

So if he had instead said, "It's like trying to compare the Marine air arm to the Marines", you would probably agree with me? You know you're not really making any sense, right? This is really all just performance art for you, isn't it?

Lol.


So you fucked up and inserted your own words, then tried to tell me I was wrong. And now you're making an argument to yourself over it and trying to blame me for your mental failings.


Note: NONE of that is my fault.


Please try and keep up with the rest of the class.

 

[HisArpy]

The resort of parents who lack either self control, or the ability to take control any other way.

https://heavy.com/news/2018/02/nikolas-cruz/

 

[dolf]

https://www.psychiatryadvisor.com/h...ating-nature-vs-nurture-in-methods-of-murder/

 

[HisArpy]

https://www.psychiatryadvisor.com/h...ating-nature-vs-nurture-in-methods-of-murder/

Quoted for you. In case you missed it:

Not all abused children become serial killers, and not all serial killers are victims of childhood abuse

Then there's this:

https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking


(off to the job thing)

 

[dolf]

And then there's this.

 

[butters]

Quoted for you. In case you missed it:



Then there's this:

https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking


(off to the job thing)

from this very article:

While conducting the meta-analysis, which included 62 years of collected data, Gershoff looked for associations between parental use of corporal punishment and 11 child behaviors and experiences, including several in childhood (immediate compliance, moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent, and physical abuse from that parent), three in both childhood and adulthood (mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior) and one in adulthood alone (abuse of own children or spouse).

Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences. Ten of the associations were negative such as with increased child aggression and antisocial behavior. The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child.

The two largest effect sizes (strongest associations) were immediate compliance by the child and physical abuse of the child by the parent. Gershoff believes that these two strongest associations model the complexity of the debate around corporal punishment.

"That these two disparate constructs should show the strongest links to corporal punishment underlines the controversy over this practice. There is general consensus that corporal punishment is effective in getting children to comply immediately while at the same time there is caution from child abuse researchers that corporal punishment by its nature can escalate into physical maltreatment," Gershoff writes.

But, Gershoff also cautions that her findings do not imply that all children who experience corporal punishment turn out to be aggressive or delinquent. A variety of situational factors, such as the parent/child relationship, can moderate the effects of corporal punishment. Furthermore, studying the true effects of corporal punishment requires drawing a boundary line between punishment and abuse. This is a difficult thing to do, especially when relying on parents' self-reports of their discipline tactics and interpretations of normative punishment.

10 negative, one positive... and that positive,"immediate compliance", can be both helpful in certain situations but also can condition a child's mind to accept and comply with, unquestioningly, the demands of 'authority figures'--above and beyond what might be healthy for them or for others

 

[HisArpy]

from this very article:

10 negative, one positive... and that positive,"immediate compliance", can be both helpful in certain situations but also can condition a child's mind to accept and comply with, unquestioningly, the demands of 'authority figures'--above and beyond what might be healthy for them or for others

You parse in order to support your nonsense. The conclusion is that corporeal punishment is EFFECTIVE at curbing misbehavior.

That you don't like it, and so you looked for ways to try to deny the conclusion, is irrelevant.

 

[HisArpy]

And then there's this.

So, what we have is a battle of experts.

Interesting that the "new" experts are 180* opposite the "old" experts who have been looking at this problem since mankind first walked upright and have concluded that spanking works.

Meanwhile the "new" experts are having to deal with all kinds of childhood behavioral problems, as a result of the "new" ideology, never seen before in the current number of incidents.


Strange how that works out at the core - traditional child rearing is effective, but modern methods seem to create out of control serial killers in vast numbers.

And you vote for following the modern guidelines while your friend's kid is on his way to becoming a "monster in the making".

 

[doowdniw]

Lol.


So you fucked up and inserted your own words, then tried to tell me I was wrong. And now you're making an argument to yourself over it and trying to blame me for your mental failings.


Note: NONE of that is my fault.


Please try and keep up with the rest of the class.

Nope, never said you were wrong regarding this matter. Just said you weren't making sense.
Try to keep up with reality.

 

[HisArpy]

Nope, never said you were wrong regarding this matter. Just said you weren't making sense.
Try to keep up with reality.

The ONLY ONE HERE who isn't making sense is you.

You fucked up and didn't follow the conversation so you decided to insert your own mental meanderings in there instead. Then you decided to try and make a point about them and fucked that up too.

Now you're insisting on continuing your line of deflection under this rubric because you have no other way of saving face. Which is as illogical as your first intrusion into la la land.


It's not like we can't see you doing it.

 

[dolf]

It's like the new experts have even more information, even more data, even more diagnostic tools.

The old experts said the earth was flat.

 

[HisArpy]

It's like the new experts have even more information, even more data, even more diagnostic tools.

The old experts said the earth was flat.

If this is what you believe, then no one is stopping you. What I'm saying is that right now we have youths committing all kinds of heinous acts. Youths whose parents ascribed to the philosophy being espoused by the "new" experts.


There is often a correlation between 2 events that is easily discovered when one examines ALL the data with an eye toward failure analysis rather than supporting a biased desired outcome and conclusion.

 

[dolf]

Some youths have always been arseholes. Always. And, i my own personal experience, it was the kids from the roughest families that were the worst.

Have you found any evidence that violence towards children prevents violence from children? Or just that it makes them comply when they are being witnessed by someone who might cause violence?

 

[HisArpy]

Some youths have always been arseholes. Always.

Have you found any evidence that violence towards children prevents violence from children? Or just that it makes them comply when they are being witnessed by someone who might cause violence?

This is BS.

If you want to believe spanking is "violence toward children" no one is going to be able to tell you differently. Because intransigence on your part is not wrong think by the rest of the world even if that's what you want to believe despite the eons of evidence to the contrary.

 

[dolf]

"blistering his backside" does not imply the occasional swat on the rump. You clearly implied violence.

 

[Sean]

This is BS.

If you want to believe spanking is "violence toward children" no one is going to be able to tell you differently. Because intransigence on your part is not wrong think by the rest of the world even if that's what you want to believe despite the eons of evidence to the contrary.

Yeah, kids that got knocked around by their parents are always the calmest adults. I should take you round the pubs in Wythenshawe and Burnage some time.