A question for the believers....

[stingray61]

PS for Sting:

St: During the time before Christ, all but the Jews that obeyed Gods law were to go to hell.
-----

Depending on the period, not all Jews believed in 'hell' in the present sense. In all periods, the possibility of 'righteous gentiles' was considered and live. Iirc correctly, Rahab is an example. In all, your point is not correct, imo.



Firstly, you don't have to believe in hell to go there after you die. Secondly I have no idea what this means....."the possibility of 'righteous gentiles' was considered and live. Iirc correctly, Rahab is an example. In all, your point is not correct, imo".



Further I *think you are suggesting the Christians were less exclusive (that they were more charitable about the fate of nonChristians); if so, I think that's another mistake, not supported in the facts, imho.


Can you explain this a little more clearly? If you're saying that I am suggesting the Christians thought non-Christians would NOT go to hell then I disagree. That's not what I'm saying at all.

 

[Pure]

Stingray,

You said,

During the time before Christ, all but the Jews that obeyed Gods law were to go to hell.
-----

I stated you were not correct, for I took you to be thinking within a historic Jewish framework

Your reply is,
Firstly, you don't have to believe in hell to go there after you die.

Since you apparently reject a Jewish framwork to address the question, consider the Christian framework, and the gentiles before the time of Jesus. You claim (as I read you), within a Christian framwork, they all are to go to hell [unless Jesus gives them a special dispensation]. This too is inaccurate, generally (the point is discussed by Paul, among others). Though you will find some Christians making that claim. It entails a number of absurdities, such as that Adam and Noah went to hell.

 

[cloudy]

This one's for Kassiana.....What's so hard about saying Christ died for my sins and I am going to live my life following his example? Which to say is to "Love everyone as myself and have no other gods before the one true God". Never mind in this case what you think of God just tell me why it's so hard for you to do that.

Oh, goodness, here I go again.....

I'm not Kassiana, and I don't presume to answer for her, but this just flies all over me. It smacks of the very arrogance I've been pointing out.

You want to know why it's so hard for me to say? Very simple....listen closely: BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVE IT'S TRUE, THAT'S WHY. Why would you want someone to say that if they don't believe it? Reread your post, think about how ridiculous that sounds to someone who doesn't believe the same thing you do. No wonder Christianity is losing people left and right if this is the way they're spoken to.

God, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit, are indeed one but they are also seperate and distinct as well. Just like St. Patrick used the shamrock to explain the Trinity to the Irish. Each leaf is separate by itself and yet each leaf is also a part of the entire flower. We too are each separate by ourselves and yet we are all a part of the Earth. I don't think Jesus *allowed* God to do what He has done but I also think Jesus knew why God did what He did and knows, as God does, that it's for the best. Just because we don't like it or understand it or can't see it that way doesn't make it not true. I can't see how the sun works and humans as of yet don't know exactly how it works but we do know it works all the same.

Want a history lesson? Would you like to know where the idea of the "trinity" actually came from? Guess what? Not from Christians....from pagans. Yep, that's right.

The triskel is a celtic symbol similar to a triangle or a three-pronged design. It symbolized mind, body, and spirit, forever entwined, forever linked. In Christianity's great quest to subdue every other religion, they saw a way to make the transition easier for the pagans and swallowed several customs whole, including that one. Do your homework, and you'll realize just how many Christian traditions aren't really Christian.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by cloudy
Want a history lesson? Would you like to know where the idea of the "trinity" actually came from? Guess what? Not from Christians....from pagans. Yep, that's right.

The triskel is a celtic symbol similar to a triangle or a three-pronged design. It symbolized mind, body, and spirit, forever entwined, forever linked. In Christianity's great quest to subdue every other religion, they saw a way to make the transition easier for the pagans and swallowed several customs whole, including that one. Do your homework, and you'll realize just how many Christian traditions aren't really Christian.

I'm not Sting, and I don't presume to answer for him, but this just flies all over me. It smacks of a heavy arm-chair theologan arrogance.

The Christian trinity was a philosophical compromise over the notion of divine substance, this much is pretty well documented. It was not some Da Vinci Code-esque hijacking of something more ancient in a religious aquisitions or merger.

 

[cloudy]

I'm not Sting, and I don't presume to answer for him, but this just flies all over me. It smacks of a heavy arm-chair theologan arrogance.

The Christian trinity was a philosophical compromise over the notion of divine substance, this much is pretty well documented. It was not some Da Vinci Code-esque hijacking of something more ancient in a religious aquisitions or merger.

Joe, I'm not an "arm chair theologan" and don't claim to be. I believe what I believe and don't care at all whether you believe the same thing or not. It's completely your business.

Sarcasm doesn't suit you, hon, it just makes you look petty, and very young.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by cloudy
Joe, I'm not an "arm chair theologan" and don't claim to be. I believe what I believe and don't care at all whether you believe the same thing or not. It's completely your business.

Sarcasm doesn't suit you, hon, it just makes you look petty, and very young.

You may well not be, but the decisive conclusion about the Trinity is hardly an accurate conclusion. It's lazy scholarship, or personal belief... neither of those make it accurate. I don't think you're qualified, on the topic, to give the history lesson you offered Sting. That's all.

I can live with looking young and petty, if at the same time I'm drawing a contrast between what's being said and what's accurate--should there be a difference.

 

[Guest]

I can see why you and your god get along so well, Joe.

You are as childish, two-faced and arrogant as your god is. Hope you get to meet him soon.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Dranoel
I can see why you and your god get along so well, Joe.

You are as childish, two-faced and arrogant as your god is. Hope you get to meet him soon.

And... as a curiosity, which God is that?

I suppose, bigotry and prejudice are alright now, I guess. Well, so long as it's "the right sort" of bigotry and prejudice.

 

[Guest]

And... as a curiosity, which God is that?

I suppose, bigotry and prejudice are alright now, I guess. Well, so long as it's "the right sort" of bigotry and prejudice.

Allah, Yahweh, Ungo Bungo, whatever name you're using these days. Just calling himself God, as if he is the only one, is arrogant enough.

As for bigotry, to say that anyone who doesn't believe in your god is a lesser person is bigotry too. And because you preach "Love thy Neighbor" it also makes it two-faced and arrogant. But that sort of behavior surely doesn't count for a christian, Does it?

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Dranoel
Allah, Yahweh, Ungo Bungo, whatever name you're using these days. Just calling himself God, as if he is the only one, is arrogant enough.

Calling him "God" is prima facia just easier for the purposes of the discussion. If you'd like, and want a more accurate term, I guess "Singular, plural, or infinite in number divine force by which we have creation, arbitration, and metaphysical existance".

As for bigotry, to say that anyone who doesn't believe in your god is a lesser person is bigotry too. And because you preach "Love thy Neighbor" it also makes it two-faced and arrogant. But that sort of behavior surely doesn't count for a christian, Does it?

I have never preached "Love thy Neighbor" or that those who aren't Christian are lesser people and I would be delighted for you to point out where you believe I have.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I have never preached "Love thy Neighbor" or that those who aren't Christian are lesser people and I would be delighted for you to point out where you believe I have.

I think that's the problem that's got Dranoel all riled up.

And that's all from this one on here. I'll leave you kiddies to rip each other apart and show Snoop all he needs to know about the eternal debate.

 

[Guest]

Calling him "God" is prima facia just easier for the purposes of the discussion. If you'd like, and want a more accurate term, I guess "Singular, plural, or infinite in number divine force by which we have creation, arbitration, and metaphysical existance".



I have never preached "Love thy Neighbor" or that those who aren't Christian are lesser people and I would be delighted for you to point out where you believe I have.

Isn't that exactly what you are doing here? Because we don't believe in your god, we are all pagan idiots and going to hell? Hell is a bad place and if we deserve to go there then we must all be lesser creatures in "His supreme Wonderfulness'" eyes. Isn't that what christianity teaches? :Whosoever believeth in me shall have eternal life..." Those that don't shall be damned to spend eternity burning on the lake of fire.

 

[English Lady]

Now it's getting nasty in here.

Dranoel...it's not as simplistic as you make it. I had a conversation with LC way back near the beginning of this thread talking about belief and hell and how it's not just as simple as it might seem. Also i dunno if hell is literally a pit of fire, i tend to think ofit more as just a place without God.

Which begs the question if you're not a friend of God on earth will you mind it in hell? I dunno.

Joe is a scholarly type and he likes to see facts stated and sometimes he's a bit blunt with his posting.

I know he isn't insulting anyone's faith just explaining stuff he knows and adding his knowledge into the fray.

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, Joe was just pointing out that just because a person believes something it doesn't make it right.

It works both ways that does if you think about it.

(EL trying to keep the peace but agreeing just a little with LC's post too *L*)

 

[stingray61]

Stingray,

You said,

During the time before Christ, all but the Jews that obeyed Gods law were to go to hell.
-----

I stated you were not correct, for I took you to be thinking within a historic Jewish framework

Ok, does that mean you're saying you were wrong?

Your reply is,
Firstly, you don't have to believe in hell to go there after you die.

Since you apparently reject a Jewish framwork to address the question, consider the Christian framework, and the gentiles before the time of Jesus. You claim (as I read you), within a Christian framwork, they all are to go to hell [unless Jesus gives them a special dispensation]. This too is inaccurate, generally (the point is discussed by Paul, among others). Though you will find some Christians making that claim. It entails a number of absurdities, such as that Adam and Noah went to hell.

Again, ok. Can you tell me where to go to find this information? I mean specifically.

 

[stingray61]

Oh, goodness, here I go again.....

I'm not Kassiana, and I don't presume to answer for her, but this just flies all over me. It smacks of the very arrogance I've been pointing out.

You want to know why it's so hard for me to say? Very simple....listen closely: BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVE IT'S TRUE, THAT'S WHY. Why would you want someone to say that if they don't believe it? Reread your post, think about how ridiculous that sounds to someone who doesn't believe the same thing you do. No wonder Christianity is losing people left and right if this is the way they're spoken to.



Well, go back and read ALL of the posts between kassiana and myself and then you might understand this question. I'm not going to explain it to you if all you're going to do is come here, get angry, and vent. That isn't what we've been doing.



Want a history lesson? Would you like to know where the idea of the "trinity" actually came from? Guess what? Not from Christians....from pagans. Yep, that's right.

The triskel is a celtic symbol similar to a triangle or a three-pronged design. It symbolized mind, body, and spirit, forever entwined, forever linked. In Christianity's great quest to subdue every other religion, they saw a way to make the transition easier for the pagans and swallowed several customs whole, including that one. Do your homework, and you'll realize just how many Christian traditions aren't really Christian.

LMBO....I'm pretty sure if I were to look into every culture that ever was I could find (if it exists) some info that some of them before the Celts had some triangular symbol to describe the same thing you're talking about. Either way it's irrelevant because you missed the entire point I was trying to make.

 

[cloudy]

Stingray:

I'm not angry, love. I'm secure enough in myself and my beliefs that you aren't going to make me angry talking about religion.

Laugh all you want. You're the one coming across as angry and confused.

 

[stingray61]

Isn't that exactly what you are doing here? Because we don't believe in your god, we are all pagan idiots and going to hell? Hell is a bad place and if we deserve to go there then we must all be lesser creatures in "His supreme Wonderfulness'" eyes. Isn't that what christianity teaches? :Whosoever believeth in me shall have eternal life..." Those that don't shall be damned to spend eternity burning on the lake of fire.

Dang I guess being on the left coast I miss all the good stuff.

NO-ONE including Joe, (according to what I have read of his posts, which is all of them), said anything about non-Christians being lesser people. You don't have to be a lesser person, if there is such a thing, to not believe in God or to go to hell. You just make a different decision about what you want to believe, and that doesn't make you lesser than anyone. If any Christians have ever told you this they're wrong.

Would you mind explaining to me how you get from John 3:16 to being a lesser human being all in one leap.

 

[Belegon]

Dang I guess being on the left coast I miss all the good stuff.

NO-ONE including Joe, (according to what I have read of his posts, which is all of them), said anything about non-Christians being lesser people. You don't have to be a lesser person, if there is such a thing, to not believe in God or to go to hell. You just make a different decision about what you want to believe, and that doesn't make you lesser than anyone. If any Christians have ever told you this they're wrong.

Would you mind explaining to me how you get from John 3:16 to being a lesser human being all in one leap.

Now, I am jumping in on the tail end of a discussion, but a real quick point. The perceptions of an individual thing are always colored by the environment it exists within. The negative thinking of much of the christian right wing in america has made those who do not believe as they do very quick to assume a defensive posture. and if you read the general tone of much of what is out there, you will see that the arrogance of the right is filtering in here and lending some other overtones to the posts of the christians here. regardless of whether or not you feel that you are deliberately implying that arrogance and attitude.

Christ the man seems to have been exceedingly compassionate and unwilling to look down on others, especially if your belief is that he had every right to do so. Use his forebearance and gentle teaching style as an example. He existed in a time of strife and distrust that eventually led to his execution. It was not his words but the way others presented them that created the misconceptions under which the romans put him to death.

Honor his memory by working to adopt his example.

I fell away from christianity precisely because of it's intolerance. I never stopped believing that the man Jesus of Nazareth had some great teachings. But those who have come after him have, for the most part, not followed his example. Goggle "childrens crusade", or "spanish inquitistion".

Jesus reserved the one great show of anger he made in public for people who supposedly believed as he did but acted otherwise. Beware those who change money in the temple.

 

[stingray61]

Stingray:

I'm not angry, love. I'm secure enough in myself and my beliefs that you aren't going to make me angry talking about religion.

Laugh all you want. You're the one coming across as angry and confused.

If this isn't being angry then I apologize..... I'm not Kassiana, and I don't presume to answer for her, but this just flies all over me. It smacks of the very arrogance I've been pointing out.


You're right about one thing....I am confused. I'm confused as to why you didn't read all the posts between Kass and I yet you want to assume you know what we're talking about by jumping right into the middle of things. I'm confused why you felt you had to get your boyfriend/alter ego or whatever to come in and talk to Joe instead of doing it yourself. Are you out of your league?

Anger is the furthest thing from me right now, and has been all along, pity is closer.

If you have anything to say that makes sense please feel free to do so but as far as I see you've just been speaking out of anger, or assumed anger from others, and haven't really given any clear information about Christianity, or even your own religion for the matter. If you go back and read everything I've said you'd understand what I'm saying, and that I'm NOT trying to convince anyone to become a Christian.

 

[stingray61]

Now, I am jumping in on the tail end of a discussion, but a real quick point. The perceptions of an individual thing are always colored by the environment it exists within. The negative thinking of much of the christian right wing in america has made those who do not believe as they do very quick to assume a defensive posture. and if you read the general tone of much of what is out there, you will see that the arrogance of the right is filtering in here and lending some other overtones to the posts of the christians here. regardless of whether or not you feel that you are deliberately implying that arrogance and attitude.

Christ the man seems to have been exceedingly compassionate and unwilling to look down on others, especially if your belief is that he had every right to do so. Use his forebearance and gentle teaching style as an example. He existed in a time of strife and distrust that eventually led to his execution. It was not his words but the way others presented them that created the misconceptions under which the romans put him to death.

Honor his memory by working to adopt his example.

I fell away from christianity precisely because of it's intolerance. I never stopped believing that the man Jesus of Nazareth had some great teachings. But those who have come after him have, for the most part, not followed his example. Goggle "childrens crusade", or "spanish inquitistion".

Jesus reserved the one great show of anger he made in public for people who supposedly believed as he did but acted otherwise. Beware those who change money in the temple.

Very good post. Since you qouted me should I assume you're talking about me? It's been my experience after many years on the web that you can't assume emotion in type written conversation. If however you feel I've been arrogant I aplogize as that isn't how I have been feeling as I type here.

 

[English Lady]

Now, I am jumping in on the tail end of a discussion, but a real quick point. The perceptions of an individual thing are always colored by the environment it exists within. The negative thinking of much of the christian right wing in america has made those who do not believe as they do very quick to assume a defensive posture. and if you read the general tone of much of what is out there, you will see that the arrogance of the right is filtering in here and lending some other overtones to the posts of the christians here. regardless of whether or not you feel that you are deliberately implying that arrogance and attitude.

Christ the man seems to have been exceedingly compassionate and unwilling to look down on others, especially if your belief is that he had every right to do so. Use his forebearance and gentle teaching style as an example. He existed in a time of strife and distrust that eventually led to his execution. It was not his words but the way others presented them that created the misconceptions under which the romans put him to death.

Honor his memory by working to adopt his example.

I fell away from christianity precisely because of it's intolerance. I never stopped believing that the man Jesus of Nazareth had some great teachings. But those who have come after him have, for the most part, not followed his example. Goggle "childrens crusade", or "spanish inquitistion".

Jesus reserved the one great show of anger he made in public for people who supposedly believed as he did but acted otherwise. Beware those who change money in the temple.

Amen Belegon.
I completely agree.

We can only do our bestthough -Jesus had an advantage being the Son of God and all. Us humans are more prone to bugger itup though.

we must strive to emulate Jesus and his teachings. Thank you for adding this thought provoking post!

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Amen Belegon.
I completely agree.

We can only do our bestthough -Jesus had an advantage being the Son of God and all. Us humans are more prone to bugger itup though.

we must strive to emulate Jesus and his teachings. Thank you for adding this thought provoking post!

Closest I saw happened to be atheist. Which is why I left this thread a long time ago.

And Bel is right about overtones.

 

[Pure]

Summing up one line of thought

Kassiana, you rock!

While this thread is very diffuse, I find your points well made, convincing--and non-hostile. {Shanglan, my buddy, is in the same general area, as far as I can see.} They form an interesting counterpoint to the hardnosed Protestantism of sting, and the compassionate orthodoxy of English Lady (esp. in her reliance on Matt 25, which I greatly admire).

So just to focus things, I've gathered the main points together for readers to see, all in one place.. Besides sting, only Joe has attempted to address them; not successfully, I will show.

Kassiana:
1. I don't believe the Bible gets God right. I think the Bible is a collection of what fallible, frail humans believed about God and that what they believed is largely wrong.

2. It's wrong to say any non-Christian, theist or not, has "rejected" God. I don't see any Gods here. I see HUMANS. I reject what seem to me to be human ideas ABOUT God. I believe I do know God and that She has no hell and no intention to send anyone to hell.

3. There are Bible verses which say God sends people to hell. They're in Matthew and Luke respectively and are attributed to Jesus, who is warning people to fear God because HE sends people to hell. Not that they choose to go there on their own, but God sends people there.

If you want to say the Bible got this wrong, more power to you. I think it did, too.
------


Kassiana: I have boatloads of faith in Gods, more Gods than you [sting] do.

The Gods never said anything in the Bible. People said God said all sorts of crap, like women should marry their rapists and that people are going to hell if they call him anything but Yahweh, but I don't believe they got it right. I don't believe anyone who claims to speak for God. It's like the guy who keeps saying "Trust me!" You shouldn't have to say "trust me" if you're trustworthy; you shouldn't have to say you're speaking for God if you really are.

Sting:We were given a choice, we know the options, we know where we'll go and what will happen yet some of us still CHOOSE not to follow Gods way.

--Kassiana: Well, that's not me. I know what the Gods want from me and I do it. And I know they love me so much that they'd never burn me forever for any mistakes I make. I "know" it just as surely as you "know" otherwise, whether you want to believe me or not. I know me far better than you do. I'd take my opinion on me over yours on me any day.

And I don't believe in "sin" as in "something which causes eternal separation from a deity." Nothing we do can separate us from the love of the Gods.

------

Considering Joe's attempted critique:

Joe
//It is rationally possible that God did say things that are contained in the Bible. //

The point is irrelevant, regardless of whatever in heck 'rationally possible' means. If a matter of (probable) fact is asserted

Kassiana: Toads do not fly.

it is no refutation, nor even countervailing evidence, to propose a *possibility.*

Joe (hypothetically): It's 'rationally possible' that toads might fly. And, equally rationally possible we can't see them, because they're flying so fast.
-----

Joe further said, //If Gods can love, why can't Gods cease to love? If Gods can love why is it impossible for Gods to dislike or punish? We can see how disobeying the rules of a parent can lead to alienation, happens all the time... why is it different on a cosmic scale?//

To Joe: If there is a God or gods whose essence is love/beneficence/'caring for'[His creation] then that cannot cease.

As to your parental analogy. In other postings you question or reject it. So you're trying to have it both ways. In any case, you give no reason to think God/gods is like an earthly parent with finite patience and mercy, and there are a good many Bible (OT)passages to the contrary, re 'everlasting mercy.'

 

[mismused]

Are you out of your league?


=======================

(*snicker*)

Oh, boy!

Uh, excuse me, but that was very "Christ" like, now wasn't it?

Tsk-tsk.

Stop it, Sting, you're insulting what you believe now. Too much arrogance here.

mismused

 

[stingray61]

Pure,

So if I say something about you, you being a moderator and all, and you don't like it do I get the boot from lit?


I don't understand why you get the idea I'm being hardnosed or have "Protestantism" beliefs. I have never been nor will I ever be a protestant. I'm simply answering the questions the best way I know how, and for the last time there isn't any anger in them what so ever. Please people stop assuming I'm angry or trying to convince you of something. All I'm trying to do is correct what I believe to be a mis-interpritation of scripture.

Funny how it is just Joe and myself that have been jumped upon by the non-believers here, and singled out by a moderator.

In any case I have nothing more to add as I find most just arguing for the sake of it and very closed minded and defensive. I wanted to have a nice discussion about religion and to correct some misbeliefs so that everyone has an equal chance to believe or dis-believe the Bible as long as they understand it correctly.

Ok now reply with how it was all my fault if you got angry because you didn't like what I posted. A discussion should never have anger or malice in it or else it will fall apart so please keep your anger and malice at home.