A question for the believers....

[Pure]

To Luc,

Before your last spew, I was going to compliment you on one of the better postings in this wild, woolly and chaotic thread.

Luc said, If God is just and worthy of devotion then what matters are your works and deeds not your faith. Be a good person and God or whoever will bestow upon you the kingdom of Heaven. Be an asshole and say hello to eternal hellfire. Its the path of Christ not the worship of Christ that matters.

If God is not just and only Christians, regardless of their behavior, get into Heaven, then fuck Him. He is not worthy of any worship or praise at that point. He is an egotistical megalomaniac and there is no worth in trying to get into his Heaven. If he is not just, He lies about Hell and Hell isn't as bad as all that. Besides the company's better.

Maybe I'll wait.

Oh hell, congratulations, well said. (I believe the eloquent Ms. Kassiana would agree, here. English Lady, too, if she focusses on Matt 25.)

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Here's something I've never been able to get a secure answer out of (except for a PhD colleague of mine who is a Buddhist and teaches religion):

Are pagans proposing that their view of the metaphysic is true? Or are they proposing that its just their own personal psychological crutch?

Which is to say, "True for me" isn't really a statement about the truth value of a propsotion. No moreso than saying "Five dollars is real to me"... well, that's fine, but are you saying that five dollars actually exists or that you just prefer to think of it in your mind out of preference?

And, if they are asserting that their view is true, what are the mechanics of it? For ought that we may have bees in our bonnets put there by the great Christian oppressors... they have put a lot of work into explaining the cosmos.

More work than "It's real to me".

 

[stingray61]

Sting:

Dranoel is not my alter ego, and is quite capable of forming his own opinions. I don't tell him what to think, just like he doesn't tell me what to think. As a matter of fact, spiritually, we believe very different things.

I still haven't seen you answer joes questions or refute his thoughts.

I'm quite happy to leave you to believe whatever you choose, and as a matter of fact, have stated that several times. I just think you're doing more harm by showing your faith in the light that you have.

*shrug*

And, no, I'm not going to preach my beliefs to you, because, to be honest, you wouldn't get it, and it's none of my business what you believe, just like it's none of your business what I believe.


so are you saying that you're afraid I'll be able to show you your faith is wrong? Or is it possible you don't have anything to back up your faith?

btw - I've read every post here, sweetie......don't make assumptions that you don't have a clue whether they're right or wrong.

If you have read every post then it's my opinion that you're just trying ti stir up trouble.

mismused:

Kassiana: *standing ovation* even though I think you're wasting your time. He's right and everyone else is wrong, don'tcha know.

Why is it ok for you to make assumptions but not me? (see your standing ovation for Kassiana) A discussion is by definition two people having different beliefs and talking about them. I don't believe I ever said nor will ever say that I'm right and anyone who doesn't believe as I do is wrong.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Mystery religions... pfft. It's like talking to John Ashcroft. "When you're where I am, you'll know. Until then, you don't get to know. But it's true. Stop asking"

 

[stingray61]

=========================

Even more arrogance, or is it just ignorance now?

Whose bible? Will you now take on the Vatican, or Protestants, or all the other "interpretations" of the bible? Is yours the only interpretation that counts?

Please, Sting, you do really seem like a nice person at heart, but you are really coming off as a prime example of the saying that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

There is a lot of room for "interpreting" what is called "the bible." See my original post for that, and do a little extrapolating.

mismused

Since The King James and NIV Bibles are all the Bibles I believe in then that is what I'm basing my beliefs on. Coming here and putting me down for what I believe but not posting any proof that I'm wrong or info about what you believe isn't having a discussion it's just harrasment.

 

[cloudy]

Why is it ok for you to make assumptions but not me? (see your standing ovation for Kassiana) A discussion is by definition two people having different beliefs and talking about them. I don't believe I ever said nor will ever say that I'm right and anyone who doesn't believe as I do is wrong.

The reason I won't discuss what I believe with you is because it's personal, and I don't discuss it with people who are obviously as close-minded as you are, if I discuss it at all. And, I don't have to back anything up, sweets, as I've said before, I could care less if you believe the same things I do or not. I'll leave all the preaching and the aiming for mass conversions to y'all.

Nope, not trying to stir up trouble, why do you think I am? Because I don't believe the same things you do? Because I'm a heathen that dares to question what you believe?

No mystery religion here, just something personal, that I won't argue about.

 

[stingray61]

I just want them to undrestand the Bible correctly
--Does that equate to agreeing with you? Do you think you really understand the Bible correctly?


Not precisely. I just believe if you truly understand the Bible you will see that what I believe about it is correct. I'm not certain or anything but I think that's what Jesus and all the authors of the Bible would say as well. and NO I don't think I understand the entire Bible correctly but I think I understand enough to believe it's the Word of God and infallible and the only true way to Heaven. I also realize I may not be arguing the case for the Bible correctly as you would think of as correct but I'm human and doing the best I can. The thing is everyone is just arguing with me about how I'm saying things and not refuting anything I have said.

www.jewsforjudaism.org also disagrees with you.

Haven't the Jewish people as a race always disagreed with the Bible? Isn't Judaism very different from Christianity? I'm asking because I think the answer to those is yes but I'm not entirely sure. If the answer is YES then for them to disagree with me would be understandable.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Jesus Christ (I apologize for the blaspheme but its neccesary), Joe, you must be the single most arrogant idiotic braindead intellectual on the planet. Are you really listening to half of what your saying or are you so wraped up in your Pascal's Wager superiority that it all escapes you?

Stop preening, you're naked, it's not silk clothes. Get over it. At least sting has the strength of her convictions, a well-meaning intention, and her sometimes moments of arrogance are accidental.

Eckh, I was hoping to escape this thread with a smidgeon of dignity, but oh well.

And sting, cloudy believes that religion is personal, not public as do I. You wish to discuss your religion and that's cool. I have a modest background in it due to friendships and cloudy used to be a member. But that doesn't mean we have to discuss our beliefs in direct antithesis to said beliefs. Doing so is trying to make us destroy our own faiths, an act none here besides maybe Kass, Pure, or Joe has called you to do.

Please have respect for that.

 

[Kassiana]

FYI, Sting, many people belong to non-proselytizing or anti-proselytizing religions. I'm one of them. Cloudy, apparently, is another. Her desire to keep her faith to herself does not imply anything other than, at most, a distaste for arguing about it.

Not all faiths are (if you'll pardon the expression) hell-bent on converting everyone else and trying to argue everyone else into their religion. If you'll notice, I haven't told you to believe in my Gods. I wouldn't. I don't want you to. I want you to find the Divine in the way that's meaningful to you.

I'd like it, sure, if you didn't say that God killed babies, because I think that's an insulting view to hold of God, but that's not trying to convert you to another religion. Many...heck, most Christians I know in real life don't believe God had a hand in the actions credited to him in the OT. (Old Testament)

I'd also like it if you'd let Cloudy practice her faith as she sees fit. She doesn't want to argue religion? Fine. She wants to point things out that she sees here? Fine. It's an open discussion that anyone can say anything they want about.

If we have to "agree to disagree" on this too, I guess we do, but I'm asking anyway.

 

[matriarch]

I hear a lot of rabbitting on about 'right' and 'wrong' in these discussions.

Personal belief has nothing whatsoever to do with what is right or wrong.

It is exactly what it says. Personal belief. To expand further, it is a faith, a belief in a way of living -and dying - that is personal to that one person, irrespective of what other people believe.

What I believe in is absolutely no business of yours or anyone else's.

And for me, the absolute, the most arrogant, patronising act is for one person to say to me, that their belief system is right and mine is wrong, simply because I do not stand up and say I agree with them.

I have never stated what faith system I believe in - or not, and I never will. It is personal to me, and is only relevant to me. That is how it should be.

I respect your right to believe in God and heaven and hell, and all the other bits and pieces that make up your faith system.

I respect Cloudy and Kassia's right to believe in Gods(plural), and nature and spirits, and all the other things that make up their faiths.

Never, never, never, would I dare to be so arrogant as to ask either of you to justify to me why you believe what you do, and why you do not believe the same as the other.

It is the ultimate intrusion.
Arrogant, unforgiveable.

Mat is done now, back to the den of iniquity called Abs, for a brandy and some smut.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Because I'm not in the mood for hotheads:

Originally posted by Lucifer_Carroll
Jesus Christ (I apologize for the blaspheme but its neccesary), Joe, you must be the single most arrogant idiotic braindead intellectual on the planet. Are you really listening to half of what your saying or are you so wraped up in your Pascal's Wager superiority that it all escapes you?

Whoa... someone said something about Pascal's Wager? Where? Whose bringing up that old crumb...

...

...oh, you are.

I'm afraid I have nothing intelligent to say about Pascal's theory of the existence of God with respect to what's being talked about at the moment. How is it relavent?

Stop preening, you're naked, it's not silk clothes. Get over it. At least sting has the strength of her convictions, a well-meaning intention, and her sometimes moments of arrogance are accidental.

No... no... tell us how you really feel.

 

[Kassiana]

Haven't the Jewish people as a race always disagreed with the Bible?
--Considering that they wrote most of it, of course not. You're forgetting how much of the Bible is their scripture, aren't you?

Isn't Judaism very different from Christianity?
--Yes. But when it comes to "disagreeing with the Bible" ... who do you think wrote Genesis, Jesus Christ himself, or a Jew?

I think human beings wrote down the words that were later assembled into the Bible, and most of those authors were Jewish.

I just believe if you truly understand the Bible you will see that what I believe about it is correct.
--I believe I do understand the Bible, truly, and I believe that what you believe about it is wrong. So do lots of other Christians, including Marcus Borg, Dominic Crossan, and John Spong.

I think I understand enough to believe it's the Word of God and infallible and the only true way to Heaven
--You're talking about Jesus here, right? The Word of God is Jesus. The Bible is a book, as a Christian friend of mine says regularly. Or do you really mean that without the Bible no one would get to heaven?

I think this is Bibliolatry. This sounds like the Bible and your limited, finite, flawed, human understanding of it are higher than your God. I'm pointing it out so you can correct it, if I'm mistaken.

 

[cloudy]

Thank you Luc, Kassiana, and Mat.

Just so.



udohiyu adalihelitsedi

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I asked my Buddhist friend about whether or not we are to assume that religion is the asserting of what is metaphysically real and whether or not keeping that information to one's self was ideal.

Naturally, he told me that to have faith is to believe that the cosmos works in some way. That it has some components and processes and that these things can be known. Him being Buddhist, he very much believed there was a method to the metaphysic. He believed there was a direction and there were ways to participate closer to it and further from it.

He and I both agreed that a faith that doesn't purport itself as real isn't a faith at all... it's a distraction. Like observing a holiday, but saying that the day doesn't deserve the status. To be spiritual is to believe in the spiritual, it is to believe something about the spiritual.

In doing so, we're believing it to be true. If we weren't, we'd be believing a comforting lie.

He felt the highest good one could do was show others how to participate more closely to the divine. He understood missionaries, didn't understand mystery religions (well, he thought they were pyramid schemes).

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Kassiana
Haven't the Jewish people as a race always disagreed with the Bible?
--Considering that they wrote most of it, of course not. You're forgetting how much of the Bible is their scripture, aren't you?

Isn't Judaism very different from Christianity?
--Yes. But when it comes to "disagreeing with the Bible" ... who do you think wrote Genesis, Jesus Christ himself, or a Jew?

The Jewish People didn't write most of the Bible. A great deal of Genesis was concieved before there were even Jews. There's a difference between inaccuracy and ridiculousness... it's being flirted with.

 

[Kassiana]

Thank you Luc, Kassiana, and Mat.

Just so.



udohiyu adalihelitsedi

You're my favorite cannibal. What else could I do?

 

[English Lady]

Chill Joe I know it's frustrating..but don't get yourself all riled up ok?

I get where you're coming from but sometimes you've got to step away from the debate.


I wonder why people keep coming back in here if they don't believe in arguing for their faith and thatthis is all pointless bickering.

I'm not trying to be funny or sarcastic or anything like that. Just wondering is all!

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

*sigh*

 

[cloudy]

You're my favorite cannibal. What else could I do?

Maybe we could make you an honorary Retarded Cannibal?

 

[stingray61]

Re: Sting response

If your god or gods are so sweet and benevolent how come they allow evil to exist in the world.
--I tend to see this world as a learning experience, a place where we can learn things we need to know, that we couldn't in the realm of the Gods. But I admit I'm not sure.

So you have been speaking of loving and caring gods that would never send anyone to hell or murder babies but allowing it to happen here on Earth is ok as long as we learn from it? I wonder what all those murdered babies and raped women, and the like would have to say about that

assume for the sake of argument that there is a hell and answer the question?
--Fine. The below is what I would think if there were verifiable evidence that there is a hell and that kids don't go there. I do not believe there is verifiable evidence of a hell, so do not credit those beliefs to me. Sting's asked for the sake of argument. I don't believe the following paragraph and never will.

If there is a hell and children can avoid it and spend their time blissfully in heaven, I think that all human beings who love children and want the best for them should start killing them right now. Fully fund abortion and encourage people to have abortions rather than have kids. Eternal torture is evil and I think most of us would love to spare anyone we can from it, so yes, if kids get a free ride I think everyone should kill them and then let all other human beings die off so there will be no more need for hell.

LOL good one. Fortunately murder for whatever reason is still a sin. And NO I'm not agreeing that God has commited murder. I can accept that you don't really believe the above response. Are you saying that if you believe in Heaven and hell that you also believe every child, even newborns, would be sinners and go to hell because they obviously haven't and can't be saved in the way the Bible sates we must be in order to go to Heaven?

in closing I really appreciate your point of view
--Thank you.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Earth to Dipshit

Private Religion (aka religious belief that states that ones own personal connection to the divine and their beliefs on the exact nature of said divine) is not the same as "Mystery Religion".

To believe in said power can indeed mean that you privately believe all others to be wrong. It can still be a full-on strong full-faith belief.

Furthermore, if one of the maxims of said private belief is eternal justice then there is no need to prostelyze. There is no need to convert, because the private religionee believes that the others will find a "lie" that allows them to reach the same end goal through deeds.

It's like that old Jethro Tull song. The folks who are quicker on the uptake will get it.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Lucifer_Carroll
Private Religion (aka religious belief that states that ones own personal connection to the divine and their beliefs on the exact nature of said divine) is not the same as "Mystery Religion".

I don't believe I said that personal religious conviction was the same as a mystery religion... I'd be delighted for you to show me where I did, though.

To believe in said power can indeed mean that you privately believe all others to be wrong. It can still be a full-on strong full-faith belief.

Furthermore, if one of the maxims of said private belief is eternal justice then there is no need to prostelyze. There is no need to convert, because the private religionee believes that the others will find a "lie" that allows them to reach the same end goal through deeds.

That doesn't resolve then why one is apt to complain about another religion's either inaccuracy or ineffectualness... when one is disinclined to offer a metaphysical alternative because it's personal. If there is something more accurate and speakable but not allowed to enlighten, then complaining about the inaccurate is poorly justified.

If we can tolerate the notion of preference exempting questioning, then why are we denying Christianity the right to preference in the same manner? I'm afraid its just not an equitable discussion without equitable anaylsis.

It's like that old Jethro Tull song. The folks who are quicker on the uptake will get it.

Or those that are just familiar with Jethro Tull songs.

 

[Kassiana]

if you believe in Heaven and hell that you also believe every child, even newborns, would be sinners and go to hell because they obviously haven't and can't be saved
--You can. The verses literally state you must believe in God to be saved. If you can't believe in God, you can't be saved, can you?

The people who most often espouse this view are Calvinist Christians. Look them up some time. They're scary.

I'd be glad to be an honorary retarded cannibal, Cloudy.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I wonder why people keep coming back in here if they don't believe in arguing for their faith and thatthis is all pointless bickering.

I'm not trying to be funny or sarcastic or anything like that. Just wondering is all!

Before?

It was getting ugly and I tried to intervene a little.

Right now?

Because the utter ignorance of the statements cast at the private belief system. Just cause I don't want to talk about my own beliefs doesn't mean I can't chip in the odd statement about others. I'm perfectly capable of imaging worlds where other people's faiths are the right ones and I have learned about Christianity, secular humanism, and paganism out of neccessity in order to communicate better to good friends. Call me a hypocrite if you will, though how it applies temporarily escapes me (prolly because I am a moron), but that's the way it is.

 

[stingray61]

Re: To Luc,

Before your last spew, I was going to compliment you on one of the better postings in this wild, woolly and chaotic thread.

Luc said, If God is just and worthy of devotion then what matters are your works and deeds not your faith. Be a good person and God or whoever will bestow upon you the kingdom of Heaven. Be an asshole and say hello to eternal hellfire. Its the path of Christ not the worship of Christ that matters.

If God is not just and only Christians, regardless of their behavior, get into Heaven, then fuck Him. He is not worthy of any worship or praise at that point. He is an egotistical megalomaniac and there is no worth in trying to get into his Heaven. If he is not just, He lies about Hell and Hell isn't as bad as all that. Besides the company's better.


Sorry for responding to Luc on this post but I didn't see his original. You are not allowing that if you have faith you will or rather should automatically want to do the wroks. One without the other is not what Christ taught.

Maybe I'll wait.

Oh hell, congratulations, well said. (I believe the eloquent Ms. Kassiana would agree, here. English Lady, too, if she focusses on Matt 25.)