Aaarg! Prop. 8 (vent)

[Stella_Omega]

They don't think they're discriminating. You gotta see it from their perspective a little... is a little sadness for their sake. They're watching a steady death on the friges of their whole worldview... year by year. An ideological growing pain.

I feel absolutely no sadness for their sake, probably goes without saying.

That sense of righteousness has been predicated on the oppression of so many other beliefs, for so long. The people whom I feel a sadness for, are the ones that lived and died without recourse to secular law to protect themselves from the tyranny of religion-- still do, in much of the world.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Wordsworth
They don't think they're discriminating. You gotta see it from their perspective a little... is a little sadness for their sake. They're watching a steady death on the friges of their whole worldview... year by year. An ideological growing pain.

I feel absolutely no sadness for their sake, probably goes without saying.

That sense of righteousness has been predicated on the oppression of so many other beliefs, for so long. The people whom I feel a sadness for, are the ones that lived and died without recourse to secular law to protect themselves from the tyranny of religion-- still do, in much of the world.

I see what you mean, Joe, but I feel no sadness at all. I think it's something like a bully who is seeing his former victims growing and catching up to him, and he can no longer push them around with impunity. It may even be just a matter of time before some of those former victims begin giving back to the bully what he used to dish out to them. Hopefully, with interest.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I see what you mean, Joe, but I feel no sadness at all. I think it's something like a bully who is seeing his former victims growing and catching up to him, and he can no longer push them around with impunity. It may even be just a matter of time before some of those former victims begin giving back to the bully what he used to dish out to them. Hopefully, with interest.

I don't really want to go that far. Justice is damned important, but as we've seen in other cases-- racial and feminist-- the angst and wailing and gnashing of teeth when the controlling majority loses privilege--- make it seem that living well is the best revenge.

 

[Liar]

I did give the reason, though. Divine mandate. I made that quite clear. It colors the way they think about what they do and should do and shouldn't do. Can't really meaningfully argue with Divine mandate. Now, if your belief were Divine mandate--like Islam or something--that would definitely define the parameters of what you could reasonably be able to operate within. If your beliefs were based on, however, whatever you felt like when you woke up--then its an easier system to alter and change.

Its an important distinction.

Divine mandate in my book would be equalled with a doubtless conviction that religion is fiction and that believing fiction is real is delusion. These people needs to be saved from the brain-washing cults they're trapped in, and it's my moral obligation to do all I can to make that happen.

Would that work as a foundation?

Can you give me the question again (I'm not really able to go back and look, its complicated), I'll do my best.

Fughettabout it, it was just anohter repetition of the rest of the discussion. So eh.

They don't think they're discriminating. You gotta see it from their perspective a little... is a little sadness for their sake. They're watching a steady death on the friges of their whole worldview... year by year. An ideological growing pain.

Ok, I'm beginning to get what you're aimimng at. But there's one thing there that I don't really get. Why the practical intervention? Why the opposition to equal treatment under law? Is it a somehow roundabout compassionate act to try and save homosexuals from eternal hellfire?

Two problems there: One - it doesn't work. They'd have to be fantastically naive to think a measure like this would un-gayify anyone who is already gay. Two - if the basic premise is, via divine mandate, that homosexuality is wrong and shouldn't be practiced... why don't they just say that, instead of blathering on about how what those gay people do is somehow a threat to their Christian traditional family structure.

Which is why I don't buy that the premise is that simple and almost pure in nature as "homosexuality should never be practiced". Or if it is, nobody is owning up to it, and putting their ass on the line for what they believe in.

The whole "sanctity of marriage" argument reeks of the same thing as those who are fighting the teaching of evolution tooth and nail. If they need to have secular institutions to protect their faith, how piss weak mustn't their faith actually be?

 

[Boxlicker101]

I did a google search for "gay rally violence" "gay marriage violence" "gay rights violence" and came up with... zilch.
I did find this;


And an astonishing (not astonishing) amount of bloggers pointing to this one single incident to "prove" gays are violent.

I googled "Proposition 8 violence" and came up with this:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images

I can't guarantee the veracity of anything, but there are a lot of hits.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101

I see what you mean, Joe, but I feel no sadness at all. I think it's something like a bully who is seeing his former victims growing and catching up to him, and he can no longer push them around with impunity. It may even be just a matter of time before some of those former victims begin giving back to the bully what he used to dish out to them. Hopefully, with interest.

I don't really want to go that far. Justice is damned important, but as we've seen in other cases-- racial and feminist-- the angst and wailing and gnashing of teeth when the controlling majority loses privilege--- make it seem that living well is the best revenge.

I don't mean gay people will or should go aound beating up on fundies. I mean that organized religion has less and less clout all the time. Instead of being thought of as next to God, peachers and priests are thought of as ordinary people, and organized religion is losing adherents. Gay people might now be starting a movement to take away the tax exemptions that churches, etc. have always enjoyed. Things like that.

Personally, I think it might be a good thing, although religious groups do some good deeds.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I googled "Proposition 8 violence" and came up with this:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images

I can't guarantee the veracity of anything, but there are a lot of hits.

yeah, a LOT of those "Violent" episodes are about signs being stolen-- both ways. Someone claims they got email death threats, Ande a preacher, who, naturally has a drum to beat, says;

Rev. Jim Garlow says signs urging a "Yes" vote on Proposition 8 are being stolen, churches have been pelted with eggs, cars have been parked outside the homes of supporters bearing the message "Bigots live here," and some supporters have been physically assaulted. Garlow says a pastor even had the windows of his car shot out because he was displaying a "Yes on 8" sticker. "One man in Modesto was beaten as he was handing out 'Yes on 8' signs, and had stitches in his eye," he adds.

I don't think parking a car with a sign qualifies as violence or vandalism. And I can't find any confirmation of the modesto beating, or the shot out car window -- just random claims. Those poor misunderstood anti-gays are making a LOT of hay out of a little straw!

I don't mean gay people will or should go aound beating up on fundies. I mean that organized religion has less and less clout all the time. Instead of being thought of as next to God, peachers and priests are thought of as ordinary people, and organized religion is losing adherents. Gay people might now be starting a movement to take away the tax exemptions that churches, etc. have always enjoyed. Things like that.

Personally, I think it might be a good thing, although religious groups do some good deeds.

Yes, and some bad deed, huh...

 

[ottohauser1977]

A gay general strike, as suggested in the film "Wedding Wars" would be a great idea.

 

[xssve]

I googled "Proposition 8 violence" and came up with this:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images

I can't guarantee the veracity of anything, but there are a lot of hits.

Interesting - I googled "violence against homosexuals" and I found this:

* The arson of the The Upstairs Lounge in New Orleans, Louisiana on June 24, 1973 killing 32 people.
* The stabbing death of Robert Hillsborough in San Francisco, California June 21, 1977 by a man shouting "faggot."
* On November 27, 1978, openly gay San Francisco city supervisor Harvey Milk was assassinated by political rival Dan White at San Francisco City Hall, along with Mayor George Moscone. Outrage over Milk's and Moscone's assassinations and the short sentence given to White (7 years) prompted the White Night Riots.[14]
* Tennessee Williams was the victim of an assault in January 1979 in Key West, being beaten by five teenage boys. He escaped serious injury. The episode was part of a spate of anti-gay violence inspired by an anti-gay newspaper ad run by a local Baptist minister.[15]
* The beating death of Terry Knudsen by three men in Loring Park in Minneapolis, Minnesota on June 5th, 1979.
* The beating death of Les Benscoter on June 15, 1979 in his St. Paul, Minnesota apartment with the words, "fags will die" written in toothpaste on his furniture.
* The beating of Rick Hunter and John Hanson by Minneapolis police outside the Y'all Come Back Saloon on January 1, 1982. Hennepin County Hospital emergency room staff employees testified in court that the police called the two men queers and sissies while the men were being treated for their injuries.
* The beating to death of Declan Flynn in Fairview Park, Dublin in 1983. The murder and subsequent suspended sentences of the perpetrators who pleaded guilty to murder saw the emergence of a more vocal gay community in the aftermath.[16]
* The beating death of Charlie Howard in Bangor, Maine in 1984.
* On May 13, 1988, Rebecca Wight was killed when she and her partner, Claudia Brenner, were shot by Stephen Roy Carr while hiking and camping along the Appalachian Trail. Carr later claimed that he became enraged by the couple's lesbianism when he saw them having sex. Carr claimed the woman taunted him by having sex in front of him.
* The fatal stabbing of James Zappalorti, a gay Vietnam veteran (1945 – 1990)
* The death of Julio Rivera in New York City on July 2, 1990 by two men who beat him with a hammer and stabbed him with a knife because he was gay.
* The killing of Paul Broussard, a Houston-area banker (1968-1991)
* The killing of an unknown homosexual man in Lillehammer, 21st of August, 1992. The police investigations took about a year before Bård Faust, the drummer of the band Emperor, was arrested and convicted of the killing. Apparently the man had suggested gay sex to Faust and after they arrived at a nearby forest, Faust stabbed the man 14 times.
* The rape and later murder of Brandon Teena, a transsexual man (1972 – 1993). The events leading to Mr. Teena's death were depicted in the movie Boys Don't Cry.
* On March 9, 1995, Scott Amedure was murdered after revealing his homosexual attraction to his friend Jonathan Schmitz on The Jenny Jones Show.
* The murders of Roxanne Ellis and Michelle Abdill, a lesbian couple in Medford, Oregon in 1995, by a man who said he thought their "lifestyle" was "sick."
* The bombing of the Otherside Lounge, a lesbian nightclub in Atlanta, by Eric Robert Rudolph, the "Olympic Park Bomber," on February 21, 1997; five bar patrons were injured.
* The death by beating and exposure of Matthew Shepard, a gay student (1976 – 1998)
* The fatal beating of supposedly gay teenager Jeff Whittington in Wellington, New Zealand on May 8, 1999.
* In May 1999, Admiral Duncan pub, a gay bar in Soho was bombed by David Copeland, killing at least 2 people and wounding 73 people.[17]
* The murder of Pfc Barry Winchell on July 6, 1999. He was dating Calpernia Addams, a transgendered author.

John Atherton, Bishop of Waterford and Lismore, was hanged for sodomy under a law that he had helped to institute. His lover was John Childe, his steward and tithe proctor, also hanged. Anonymous pamphlet, 1641.

* The July 1, 1999, murders of gay couple Gary Matson and Winfield Mowder by white supremacist brothers Matthew and Tyler Williams. Matthew Williams claimed that by killing the couple he was following "obeying the law of God," because he believed homosexuality violated God's laws. Williams said he hoped his actions would inspire further violence against homosexuals and ethnic minorities.
* The murder of Steen Fenrich by his stepfather, in September 1999. His dismembered remains were found in March 2001, with the phrase "gay nigger number one" scrawled on his skull along with his social security number.
* In November 1999, Blah Bar, a gay bar in Cape Town, South Africa, was bombed injuring 2 people.[18]
* The murder of Arthur "J.R." Warren by three teenage boys on July 3, 2000, who believed Warren spread a rumor that he and one of the boys had a sexual relationship. Warren's killers ran over his body to disguise the murder as a hit-and-run.
* One notorious incident of gay-bashing occurred on September 22, 2000. Ronald Gay entered a gay bar in Roanoke, Virginia and opened fire on the patrons, killing Danny Overstreet and injuring six others. Ronald said he was angry over what his name now meant, and deeply upset that three of his sons had changed their surname. He claimed that he had been told by God to find and kill lesbians and gay men, describing himself as a "Christian Soldier working for my Lord".[19]
* Aaron Webster, a gay man in Vancouver, British Columbia, was beaten to death in Stanley Park in 2001.
* On June 16, 2001, Fred Martinez, a transgender student was attacked and beaten to death by 18-year old Shaun Murphy.
* On June 30, 2001, hundreds of soccer hooligans attacked participants of the first Serbian Pride Parade in Belgrade.
* The 2002 homicide of Nizah Morris, a transgender in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and the mishandling of the case by the Philadelphia Police Department.
* The non-fatal stabbing of Bertrand Delanoë, a gay politician, Mayor of Paris, France, in 2002
* The killing of Gwen Araujo, a transsexual woman (1985 – 2002). Michael Magidson, Jaron Nabors, and José Merél were charged with the murder as a hate crime, with Jason Cazares charged as an accomplice. Nabors made a deal with prosecution, receiving a manslaughter conviction in exchange for testimony, but his testimony was largely considered unreliable. The jury hung on Cazares, who then pled guilty to voluntary manslaughter to avoid a retrial. Magidson and Merél were convicted of second-degree murder, but the hate crime enhancement was not accepted by the jury.

* Sakia Gunn (May 26, 1987-May 11, 2003) was a 15-year old African American lesbian who was murdered in a hate crime in Newark, New Jersey. On the night of May 11, Gunn was returning from a night out in Greenwich Village, Manhattan with her friends. While waiting for the #1 New Jersey Transit bus at the corner of Broad and Market Streets in downtown Newark, Gunn and her friends were propositioned by two men. When the girls rejected their advances, by declaring themselves to be lesbians, the men attacked them. Gunn fought back, and one of the men, Richard McCullough, stabbed her in the chest. Both men immediately fled the scene in their vehicle. After one of Gunn's friends flagged down a passing driver, she was taken to nearby University Hospital, where she died.

* On June 17, 2003, Richie Phillips was murdered by Joseph Cottrell. His body was later found in a suitcase, in Rough River Lake. During his trial, Cottrell's relatives testified that he lured Phillips to his death, and killed him because he was gay.
* On July 23, 2003, Nireah Johnson and Brandie Coleman were murdered by Paul Moore, when Moore learned after a sexual encounter that Johnson was transgender.
* On July 31, 2003, 37-year-old Glenn Kopitske was killed by 17-year-old Gary Hirte. Hirte pleaded insanity, claiming he killed Kopitske in a murderous rage after a consensual sexual encounter with the victim, because he felt a homosexual act was "worse than murder."
* On June 5, 2004, Jamaican Gay rights activist Brian Williamson was murdered with a machete, suffering several stab wounds to neck and face.
* On September 28, 2004, Sierra Leonean gay and lesbian rights activist FannyAnn Eddy was murdered while she was working late in her office. Her attackers have escaped from prison and have never been recaptured and prosecuted.
* On October 2, 2004 two men in Waverly, Ohio beat Daniel Fetty to death with bricks and boards. Prosecuters believe it was because Fetty was gay.
* On January 28, 2005, Ronnie Paris, a three-year-old African American child died due to brain injuries resulting from abuse by his father. According to his mother and other relatives, Ronnie Paris, Jr., would slam his son into walls and force him to "slap-box" because he was concerned the child was gay and feared his son would grow up a sissy.
* On March 11, 2005, Jason Gage -- an openly gay man -- was murdered in his Waterloo, Iowa apartment by an assailant who claimed Gage had made advances and was killed when he fought with the victim. The district attorney in the case noted neither the victim or the perpetrator, or the apartment bore any signs of struggle. Gage was bludgeoned to death with a bottle, and stabbed in the neck with a shard of glass.
* On June 30, 2005, Yishai Shlisel, a Haredi Jew stabbed three marchers in a gay pride parade in Jerusalem, Israel, claiming he acted on behalf of God.[20]
* Jody Dobrowski, murdered in 2005 in London, the two murderers were later sentenced to life in prison.
* In September 2005, Lauren Harries, a former child antiques expert who had gender realignment surgery to become a woman, her father and brother were attacked by 8 young men in their home in Cardiff. According to court, the youths were shouting and swearing and were heard to shout out the word "tranny" - a term of abuse associated with hate crime.[21]
* In December 2005, a Jamaican mob chased an alleged gay man who, fearful of the crowd, jumped into the water and drowned.[22]
* In February 2006, Gisberta Salce Júnior, a homeless Brazilian transsexual living in extreme social exclusion in the Portuguese city of Oporto, was tortured and anally raped with sticks over a period of three days and then thrown into a pit and left to die in an abandoned construction site. A group of twelve to fourteen adolescent boys between the age of 12 and 16 admitted to committing this crime.[23]
* On February 2, 2006, 18 year-old Jacob D. Robida entered a bar in New Bedford, Massachusetts, confirmed that it was a gay bar, and then attacked patrons with a gun and a hatchet, wounding at least three.[24]
* In April 2006, students rioted at the University of the West Indies in Jamaica and attacked an alleged gay student.[22]
* On April 6, 2006, two American television producers, CBS Evening News senior producer Richard Jefferson and 48 Hours producer-researcher Ryan Smith, were beaten with a tire iron outside the Sunset Beach Bar on the Caribbean island of St. Maarten by a group of four men and two women. The attack left Smith unable to speak properly, having suffered a skull fracture and brain damage.[25]
* On June 10, 2006, Kevin Aviance was robbed and beaten by a group of men who yelled anti-gay slurs at him
* On July 30, 2006, six men were brutally beaten after leaving the San Diego, California Gay Pride festival. One of the gay men was beaten so badly that he had to undergo extensive facial reconstructive surgery. All but one of the attackers were adults the exception being a 15-year-old. The attackers were charged with hate crimes.[26]
* On October 8, 2006, Michael Sandy was attacked by four heterosexual young men who lured him into meeting after chatting with him online, while they were looking for gay men to rob. Sandy was hit by a car while trying to escape his attackers. He died five days later, never having regained consciousness.
* On February 14, 2007, three gay men and the gay activist Gareth Williams were stoned by a huge mob in a homophobic attack in Kingston, Jamaica. International human rights organisations have described Jamaica as one of the most homophobic places in the world[27][28]
* On April 8, 2007, approximately 100 men gathered outside a church where 150 people were attending the funeral of a gay man in Mandeville, Jamaica. According to mourners, the crowd broke the windows with bottles and shouted, “We want no battyman [gay] funeral here. Leave or else we’re going to kill you. We don’t want no battyman buried here in Mandeville.” [22]
* On May 12, 2007, Roberto Duncanson was murdered in Brooklyn, New York. He was stabbed to death by Omar Willock, who claimed Duncanson had flirted with him.
* May 16, 2007, Sean William Kennedy, 20, was walking to his car from Brew's Bar in Greenville, SC when Andrew Moller, 18, got out of another car and approached Kennedy. Investigators said that Moller made a comment about Kennedy's sexual orientation, and threw a fatal punch because he didn't like another man's sexual preference.[29]
* On May 29, 2007, Michael Marcil, better known as drag queen Dixie Landers was beaten outside of an Ottawa, Ontario gay pub. Andrew Lefebvre and Sheri-Lee Rand have been charged for the attack.[30]
* On July 7, 2007, 30 participants at a gay pride event in Croatia were attacked by multiple assailants. The attackers had also prepared Molotov cocktails but were stopped by the police before using them. Many people taking part in Gay Pride marches in Eastern Europe (e.g: Romania, Russia, Serbia) have been beaten after leaving the marches.[31][32]
* In September 2007, Osvan Inacio dos Santos, 19, was attacked and murdered in a street near a bar where he had just won the local "Miss Gay" competition in the town of Batingas in northeast Brazil. dos Santos' naked body was found on Sunday morning and forensic examination found his skull had been fractured and indicated sexual assault.[33]
* On December 3, 2007, Craig Gee was attacked by four men whilst holding his boyfriend's hand walking down Crown Street in Surry Hills, Sydney, Australia. Part of his skull was reduced to powder and his leg was broken during the attack. [34] This incident prompted a vigil against the rising level of homophobia in the city and alleged apathy from police [35], and despite the attack, Gee and his boyfriend joined the Chief of Parade Margaret Cho to lead the 2008 Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras parade. [36]
* In January, 2008, three gay men were attacked in the privacy of their dwelling by an angry mob who had days before threatened them if they did not leave the community in Mandeville, Jamaica. According to reports, two men were hospitalised, one with serious injuries, while another man is still missing and feared dead.[28][22]
* In February 2008, Brazilian gay rights activist Alexandre Peixe dos Santos was attacked and beaten at the Sao Paulo's Gay Pride Association offices in Brazil. Activists estimate that more than 2,680 gay people were murdered in Brazil between 1980 and 2006[37]
* In February 2008, transsexual Duanna Johnson was beaten by a police officer while she was held in the Shelby County Criminal Justice Center. Johnson said the officers reportedly called her a “faggot” and “he-she,” before and during the incident.[38][39]. In November 2008, she was found dead in the street, reportedly gunned down by three unknown individuals.[40]
* On February 12, 2008, Lawrence "Larry" King, a 15 year old junior highschool student was shot by a classmate at E.O. Green School in Oxnard, California. He was taken off life support after doctors declared him brain dead on February 15. According to Associated Press reports, "prosecutors have charged a 14-year-old classmate with premeditated murder with hate-crime and firearm-use enhancements".[41][42][43]
* In Rochester, New York on March 16, 2008 police say Lance Neve was beaten unconscious because Neve was gay. A man attacked Neve at a bar leaving him with a fractured skull, and a broken nose.[44]
* In Baltimore County, Maryland on May 29, 2008 eighteen year old Steven Parrish—a member of the Young Swans subgroup of the Bloods—was murdered by Steven T. Hollis III and Juan L. Flythe after they found "gay messages" on his cell phone. They felt having a gay member would make their gang appear weak and that by killing Parrish they could prevent that perception.[45]
* September 7, 2008 - Tony Randolph Hunter, 27, and his partner were attacked and beaten near a gay bar in Washington DC. Hunter later died from his injuries on September 18th. Police are investigating it as a possible hate crime.[1][2]
* On November 14, 2008, Moses "Teish" Cannon was shot and killed in Syracuse, NY for being openly gay.[46]

wikipedia: Violence against LGBT people

Ok, so it's just a partial list.

 

[DeeZire]

Your list would look good on a wall like the Vietnam Memorial. No doubt, Box would show up with scotch tape and add a one page list of violence against prop 8 supporters.

 

[Vermilion]

* On January 28, 2005, Ronnie Paris, a three-year-old African American child died due to brain injuries resulting from abuse by his father. According to his mother and other relatives, Ronnie Paris, Jr., would slam his son into walls and force him to "slap-box" because he was concerned the child was gay and feared his son would grow up a sissy.

I think I'm going to be sick

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

That's why I contend that the real issue here is the hierarchy of "Next-of-kin" with "spouse" at the top and "contractual partner" at the bottom. If you start with that premise and "follow the money" you'll find most of the non-religious opponents of same-sex marriage.



Who would you rather have making laws?

A: A group of people chosen to represent the interests of a constituency; whose full-time job is, at least nominally, to read understand, and evaluate proposed legislation before voting on it.

or

B: A mass of voters whose entire knowledge of the issue is the blurbs on the sample ballot, the opposing propaganda campaigns, or even just the wording on the ballot?

'Group A' isn't going to guarantee good laws, but it has a better chance of passing good laws than 'Group B' does. If nothing else, 'Group A' tends to be generally better educated than 'Group B.'

AND THATS THE ISSUE IN A NUTSHELL..."WHO GETS TO DECIDE?"....BUT WHAT IF THE NEXT TIME YOUR PHILOSOPHER KINGS OPPOSE YOU? I CANT IMAGINE YOU LIKING THAT VERY MUCH. SO IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WHAT YOU REALLY WANT IS ANARCHISM WHERE EVERYONE DOES THEIR OWN THING.

 

[stephanie_webster]

the wording on this (well the one I voted on in Florida) was it really about gay marriage?

Sorry. I have to get this off my chest.

Okay, here's the deal: Sacramento theater director Scott Eckern made a $1,000 donation in support of California's Proposition 8 ban on same-sex marriage, and, when this was discovered, he subsequently resigned from the California Musical Theatre to "protect" the organization from controversy. (Obviously, there are a lot of gays in this theatre, supporting it and going to it.)

All these letters to the L.A. Times pour in. Poor Scott! How can gays preach tolerance then be so intolerant of this guy's personal decision. This is McCarthyism! This is hypocrisy! You know what? This guy didn't just vote for this measure which would have been bad enough. He helped fund it. Which means he helped steal away important rights from a lot of people.

To be intolerant of intolerance isn't quite hypocrisy or McCarthyism! That's like saying that blacks are being hypocritical if they don't tolerate supporters of Jim Crowe laws!

I am so pissed at this! Here are all these pro-prop-8 people moaning and complaining about the boycotts and protests and controversies over prop. 8. Are they even thinking? Never mind. Stupid question. Obviously not! If someone said, "Sorry, we voted and you can't get married to the person you most want to marry, and you can't have these rights we who can marry do...." wouldn't you protest? You make a decision to take away those rights, then you'd fucking better be prepared to take the consequences of that decision!

My gawd! These conservative whiners put every bleeding-heart liberal to shame with their "you're picking on me!" cries. Typical of bullies. They want to pick on everyone else but start weeping when they get picked on. They bitch about people taking responsibility but aren't willing to suffer or hear of others suffering for their decisions.

Everyone seemed to think, "Oh, we'll make the law just man & woman, and all the nice gays will go back to hiding in their closets and we won't have to hear about them again....La-de-dah!" Now those nice gays are pissed and not being so nice and everyone's trying to shame them...for being mean! For being intolerant?

I'm glad Scott had to resign! I'm glad he, at least, had to suffer some consequences for his decision. If we all vote for no new taxes then we all agree to take the consequences of that decision if no new taxes mean that potholes remain and there aren't enough police to answer all 911 calls in a timely manner. That's what we decided, that's what we get. I think everyone who funded 8, never mind voted for it, should suffer the consequences of that decision. They made it, so deal with the fall out. And Scott, you took away something precious and important to these people, and if you thought it was that right you should be willing, without tears or complaint, to sacrifice something you hold dear as well. If you really believed in it, then it should be no sacrifice at all.

I am so fucking furious at all this! It's like someone went into people's homes, robbed them, and are now complaining because they can't enjoy their ill-gotten gains in peace! Hey! You made the bed, you lie in it!

And yes, please, feel free to quote me, plagiarize me, re-write me, use what I just said in any blog, protest, letter, e-mail or argument against these idiots. Life does not just go on after you've robbed someone of something that important! Accept the consequences of your fucking actions!

 

[Vermilion]

the wording on this (well the one I voted on in Florida) was it really about gay marriage?

What do you mean Stephanie? Was 3113's rant really about gay marriage or was Prop 8 really about gay marriage? It may just be me, but your post doesn;t seem very clear

x
V

 

[Belegon]

Your list would look good on a wall like the Vietnam Memorial. No doubt, Box would show up with scotch tape and add a one page list of violence against prop 8 supporters.

I feel a need to defend Box. While remarkably myopic, he was also against Prop. 8.

ETA:

Stephanie, the Florida initiative I can not speak to directly. But CA Prop 8 was very specifically targeted against gay marriage and gay marriage alone.

 

[freshface]

Ok, I'm beginning to get what you're aimimng at. But there's one thing there that I don't really get. Why the practical intervention? Why the opposition to equal treatment under law? Is it a somehow roundabout compassionate act to try and save homosexuals from eternal hellfire?

Two problems there: One - it doesn't work. They'd have to be fantastically naive to think a measure like this would un-gayify anyone who is already gay. Two - if the basic premise is, via divine mandate, that homosexuality is wrong and shouldn't be practiced... why don't they just say that, instead of blathering on about how what those gay people do is somehow a threat to their Christian traditional family structure.

Which is why I don't buy that the premise is that simple and almost pure in nature as "homosexuality should never be practiced". Or if it is, nobody is owning up to it, and putting their ass on the line for what they believe in.

The whole "sanctity of marriage" argument reeks of the same thing as those who are fighting the teaching of evolution tooth and nail. If they need to have secular institutions to protect their faith, how piss weak mustn't their faith actually be?

I don't think it's a need to have secular institutions protect their faith. It's more their unshakable belief that their way (faith) is the only way, and that everyone must live according to their beliefs. I think they fight teaching evolution because they want kids in school to be taught the true faith.

They fight homosexuality in society because they don't believe it should exist. I think the premise really is that simple and pure, but they recognize that that argument won't get any traction in today's society. Better to do it incrementally-erode homosexual rights a little at a time until people go back in the closet again. I also think that this group recognizes that the tide is against them. It's a lot easier to demonize a group when members of the group are not well known. Kids today grow up with classmates who have two mommies or two daddies, teachers who have pictures of their gay partners on their desks, television shows that show normal people who happen to be gay. The more open and accepted homosexual relationships are, the more difficult it is for the opposition to remove them from society. This scares the bejeezus out of the social conservatives.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

FRESH FACE.

It seems to me you dont understand conservatives very well. Let me illustrate my claim with a metaphor about conservatives.

Twenty years ago, before the expressway was built, there was a lovely meadow near my home. In April, when the wild Phlox bloom, it was a magical kind of place to see. Sometimes I drove there at lunch, just to sit and look at it for a while.

Then one day I went there and it was gone. The state cleared it and built an expressway overpass on the land. To many people the expressway was a better use of the land, to me it was a loss. To my way of thinking, the state could have run the highway over adjoining shrub thickets that are mostly sterile and the habitat for rattlesnakes. Paving over the rattlesnakes and leaving the flowers alone would have been a win-win for everyone.

Conservatives believe that liberals are too hasty to act, and dont think about consequences or precedents. Our problem isnt Darwin or evolution (I agree with Darwin, myself); our problem is the unnecessary confrontation between opposing world views. Said differently I DONT BELIEVE IN JESUS OR SANTA CLAUS BUT I CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS BECAUSE IT'S A GOOD THING TO DO. That is, Judeo-Christianity works better than sterile materialism.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
I googled "Proposition 8 violence" and came up with this:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&a...i=&safe=images

I can't guarantee the veracity of anything, but there are a lot of hits.

Interesting - I googled "violence against homosexuals" and I found this:

Your list would look good on a wall like the Vietnam Memorial. No doubt, Box would show up with scotch tape and add a one page list of violence against prop 8 supporters.

I googled that just to add to the discussion. There are items there about anti-Prop 8 violence and Pro-Prop 8 violence.

I am fully aware that bashing of GLBT people has a long, bloody and shameful history. Except for a few, like the poo-flinging monkey, you are preaching to The Amen Corner.

One of the characters who occasionally appears in a story I write iis based on Gwen Araujo, a young T-girl whose murderers are doing a lot less time than they should be.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

BOX if its any consolation to you, I'm all in favor of hanging every murderer and his accomplice. But you guys want your cake and eat it, too.

You want faggot-bashers dead but you oppose capital punishment. Huh? Your ambivalence about punishment makes everyone crazy. Your attitude of PUNISH THEM BAD, BUT NOT TOO MUCH deserves all the Cheetah Chips I can fling.

I think my way is congruent and about as even-steven as you could want. HANG EM ALL, LET GOD SORT THEM OUT.

 

[sweetness6280]

I did give the reason, though. Divine mandate. I made that quite clear. It colors the way they think about what they do and should do and shouldn't do. Can't really meaningfully argue with Divine mandate. Now, if your belief were Divine mandate--like Islam or something--that would definitely define the parameters of what you could reasonably be able to operate within. If your beliefs were based on, however, whatever you felt like when you woke up--then its an easier system to alter and change.

Jim Jones had a Divine mandate, as did David Koresh. Anyone can have a so-called Divine mandate, more often than not with disastrous results.

The issue here is not arguing with Christians, Jews, LDS, or any other organized or disorganized religion. No one is suggesting that they change their views on the "sin value" of homosexuality.

At issue is the legality of a state's constitutional amendment that takes away the rights of a specific segment of the citizenry.

Can someone logically explain to me how this is not covered by the 14th amendment?

Our government recognizes marriage as a contract, with legal benefits and responsibilities. This is not a religious discussion, but a legal one.

Would you be so cavalier if it were your rights that had been stripped from you?

 

[Boxlicker101]

.

We don't agree on much, but we do agree on capital punishment. Personally, I think everybody who is charged with murder should have several possible verdicts, besides acquittal. One of them should be capital murder, and a conviction of that, by a jury, is also a sentence. If there happened to be any doubt in the defendant's mind, the judge would inform him or her as soon as the verdict is read, and the convicteed person would immediately be confined, with no appeal bond. An appeal would be automatic, but the sentence could not be reduced, except by an acquittal or a conviction of a lesser level of murder. And the sentence would be carried out by public hanging.

 

[Belegon]

Box, you know better.

Do not quote it.

 

[Shwenn]

Our government recognizes marriage as a contract, with legal benefits and responsibilities. This is not a religious discussion, but a legal one.

And this is precisely why this issue is so very important to me on a very personal level. As it is with almost every atheist I know. I'm so passionate about it, it's often assumed that I am gay.

They are trying to legislate their religion. It's not something they make any attempt to hide.

If we let that happen, we're next. Ain't no two ways about it.

The Bible is as clear about atheists as it is about homosexuals.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Box, you know better.

Do not quote it.

Okay. I just deleted what JBJ said, even though I do essentially agree with him on this one point.

 

[Liar]

They fight homosexuality in society because they don't believe it should exist.

Ah, but they don't fight homosexuality. it may be homosexuality that they're against. But they fight homosexuals. Denying gays equal right does not, in any way, shape or form, make them less gay. It just makes them angry.