Afraid of being seen as gay, are you?

[ABSTRUSE]

[B . I can't even wrap my head around it. [/B]

Totally taking this in the wrong context

 

[susurrus]

I don't know if this really fits with this thread, but since they started the public feedback thing, I've noticed a lot of disgruntled readers.

It appears, from what I've read on public feedbacks, that *any* sort of male-male contact, in certain readers' opinions, belongs in the gay category. It's the vehemence of reaction in these messages that makes me roll my eyes. I'd have said "surprises me" but I see too many examples every day of meticulous machismo-maintenance, that I understand from where such reactions spring.
It's almost as if a lot of men think they have to continually prove that they are still masculine for it to actually be true.

Example: There was one guy who was going to borrow my department's digital camera for something at home. He'd take the camera and the charger, but he didn't want the case to carry it all with, because he thought it looked too much like a purse.

But you are correct: More of our readers would rather read about an orgy where there's twenty women going at it together than read about one guy touching another guys' private parts, for anything other than a physical exam (and maybe not even that).

And god help the writer who forgets that.

If you're vote-conscious, unfortunately, if there's *any* kind of male contact in your story, you must either vociferously warn the reader ahead of time, or place it in the gay category. If it's in group, and you surprise some poor sucker, it's likely that he's gonna pound you for it.

 

[CharleyH]

(Across the Street)

I am interested in knowing how it was received by both men and women - although I suppose it also depends on the category. Did you receive many comments regarding this aspect - good, bad - was there any difference between the attitude of women vs. men?

Originally posted by The Earl
Here's a thought - following on from the pandering to male fantasies and 'normal' behaviour - it could be looked at that we are all personas rather than persons here. We each are a character, with a nickname to separate them from our real selves. Maybe that's why the girls feel it normal to act bi, even in jest, whereas we blokes feel like male/male flirting is forbidden. It's a tradition or an old charter or something and we're all staying in character.

I agree. Obviously, we are all personas and don't know eachother personally, with exceptions, and so one would think that it would be easier to play, mock flirt as you say - still, men don't, so do men get exceptionally offended? Interesting why they would. Even the persona is fragile? Fascinating perspective you have.

McKenna
So call me insane, but my fantasy would be to see a circle jerk with all our male Literoticans.

Perhaps you can write about it. I'd be interested

Alyxen
Most straight men will enjoy a lesbian scene, but you don't really hear about women wanting to read about a gay male scene.

Well, hm, I hear it from women all the time, and more and more frequently since the early 90's. I guess that's why I posed the question whether or not men would go to the video store and rent a gay male movie because it is what turns their wife/GF on, afterall, women have been subjected to the male fantasy forever.

Abstruse
Totally taking this in the wrong context

No, I don't think so

susurrus
It appears, from what I've read on public feedbacks, that *any* sort of male-male contact, in certain readers' opinions, belongs in the gay category. It's the vehemence of reaction in these messages that makes me roll my eyes.

How true. I have been told both gay and lesbian stories, though they may fall under voyeur or incest, are better off in the gay or lesbian stories sections because readers get upset. Though I hear that new categories will be set up for gay/lesbian specific genre's. I wonder if some gay and lesbian stories contain straight people. I wonder if the reaction is the same?

 

[doormouse]

Totally taking this in the wrong context

At least I'm not the only one LOL

 

[Liar]

Re: Re: Afraid of being seen as gay, are you?

Hmmm....interesting point to ponder...

It hadn't really crossed my mind, personally, 'cause I can't recall the last time I've ever encountered any of the male authors who've mentioned or implied that they or their personae might be gay or even bisexual.

Just to even that score...

It's right there in plain text to see on my bio page. I don't hide nuffin from nobody. I have written autobiographical homoerotic/romantic poems, and have mentioned that I play for any team there is, when the subject has been brought up. That happens quite rarely though. This is the first time in months that I have felt any reason to volunteer that info more or less unbidden.

The reason you haven't seen this is that I don't babble about my sexuality in every other post. Because frankly, there are other parts of my person that are more interresting.

And I also refrain from flirting with people who doesn't flag that they are open to the idea of getting flirted on by me, which means most men, as well as some women.

#L

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Homosexuality between guys disturbs me. Couldn't say why, exactly... but it does.

 

[Liar]

Homosexuality between guys disturbs me. Couldn't say why, exactly... but it does.

It's 2.45 in the morning here, so I blame fatigue for reading "homosexuality between gays", and almost replying with a big "what other kind is there?".

 

[gauchecritic]

I think Joe was being strict with the word Homosexual. Dictionaries don't specify a sex in their definition.

*

Actually Charley, the only feedback I got for that story didn't mention the anal sex (although I was told that it contained too much sex.)

A friend of mine's wife's favourite fantasy is to watch "two blokes shagging in the shower"

Gauche

 

[Belegon]

ALthough I don't consider myself bi, I am not threatened by gay sex like I feel a lot of hetero men are. Nor am I completely shut off to the possibility that someday I may "play for that team", to turn Liars analogy into a running gag.

It is just that my current focus is totally on the feminine.

No male here has ever flirted with me to my knowledge/memory. If one did, I expect I would flirt back, depending on mood of course, just like with a female. I mean, it is the internet. We can't really see each others body's and we certainly can not touch them. So obviously, we are into each other's personalities and minds. So why should I not flirt with a guy? At this point I would have to say it is just as likely I will wake up in bed with Liar, Gauche or Joe as it is I will wake up in bed with Cloudy, Honey123, Lucky, CharleyH or Abs.

I can, however, promise that I will never wake up in bed next to Amicus.

 

[matriarch]

I can, however, promise that I will never wake up in bed next to Amicus.

Phew, that's a relief..........had me worried for a minute that your good taste had deserted you.



Just to get back to the theme, gay themes and topics do not disturb me, I will happily read, and more importantly, enjoy and get turned on by, a well written gay story.

I had noticed the very noticeable lack of gay interraction and flirtation on AH. Intriguing. (BTW has anyone seen Dream Keeper lately? He seems to have disappeared.)

Mat

 

[CharleyH]

It's 2.45 in the morning here, so I blame fatigue for reading "homosexuality between gays", and almost replying with a big "what other kind is there?".

LOL, that's exactly what I thought.

Originally posted by Gauche
I think Joe was being strict with the word Homosexual. Dictionaries don't specify a sex in their definition . . . the only feedback I got for that story didn't mention the anal sex (although I was told that it contained too much sex.) A friend of mine's wife's favourite fantasy is to watch "two blokes shagging in the shower"

You know, I have often wondered why the word 'homosexual' seems only applicable to men.

There's such a thing as too much sex?

I venture to guess most of the men adding to this thread would have no problem renting gay porn if it meant they were going to make their lover happy, and yet I still wonder if those like Joe would rent it or if looking thru the video's would make them too uncomfortable in the first place, let alone actually watching it with their lover. (Hm, a potentially humourous and interesting story.)

Originally posted by Matriarch
Just to get back to the theme, gay themes and topics do not disturb me, I will happily read, and more importantly, enjoy and get turned on by, a well written gay story.

There have been a few threads, and it is also well known that many men write lesbian stories. I am wondering about female authors, and whether or not any would or have written write a male/male story?

 

[Liar]

There have been a few threads, and it is also well known that many men write lesbian stories. I am wondering about female authors, and whether or not any would or have written write a male/male story?

Svenskaflicka did.

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

 

[TheEarl]

I don't think these men are man enough to show that side of themselves.

Cheeky sod!

It is weird - more convention than anything real distaste for the matter. My friends and I have a running joke about "Bloke Law" - Bloke Law no 27 states that any man holding a tube or a rolled up magazine must pretend that it is a light-sabre or a cricket-bat at least once. Bloke Law no 3 is no talking and no looking at the urinals. It's not as clear cut and defined as that, but the unspoken laws are there. We're just brought up with the idea that there are things men just can and can't do. Peer pressure more than anything else and it takes a real extrovert like Pops (or me when I'm in the mood) to break it.

I read an article about the levels of homosexuality (dictionary def, rahter than just Gay Male). Some scientist postulated 10 levels of homosexuality - 1 was completely straight, can't even recognise any attractiveness in your own sex and 10 was completely gay, can't recognise any attractiveness in the opposite sex. Apparently interviews with their control group shows that 70% of straight men are in levels 1 and 2, whereas 70% of straight women are in levels 3 and 4, meaning that they recognise and admire beautiful women, but wouldn't act on it.

I'd say I was a 3-4, ie I can recognise that Joe's handsome, but it's not something I'd take up. I wonder how many men here can admit that they find Joe attractive opposed to women who can admit they find Tatelou attractive?

The Earl

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

After reading the all the Olympic stories, I have noticed that there are few references to gay males. I find this curious, since there are plenty of gay women in these stories.

I wondered why this is - if, in the fantasy of satire, humour etc. seemingly straight women can be gay, why the aversion to a gay male sex scene? Are people afraid of writing a scene in, afraid of offending tender male ego's? Why is it acceptable for lesbian scenes? Are we unconciously catering to the male reader?

I dunno, just a thought, and a conversation for a Saturday morning.

Well, let's see....considering my story had one of the male commentators sucking off the other one (also male) and also that the third male commentator was trapped because he had done something with a male hobo....and the fact that I had zero straight sex except in the audience....

I don't know. The lesbian side is certainly easier to make central to the action without fear of alienating readers whereas the gay male side is not. I remember the invective hate response I got (all from males) when I took the time to debunk the whole "the bible supports hating gays" thing. Would I insert a gay scene in a group sex scenario again? Probably, but it might not be the center of the orgy.

Overall, I'll write gay men when I find it appropriate and dyke women when I find it appropriate and that's the what not.


P.S. You did include me on the list of two, right, doormouse?

 

[CharleyH]

Re: Re: Afraid of being seen as gay, are you?

Well, let's see....considering my story had one of the male commentators sucking off the other one (also male) and also that the third male commentator was trapped because he had done something with a male hobo....and the fact that I had zero straight sex except in the audience....

Well, let me see, yes, I would say out of 24(?) stories, this is FEW. I hadn't meant it to be a promotion question, otherwise, I'd have included myself.

Still, from what I recall, you spent lots of time with the lesbian action, and not much detail on the male action. Why did you choose to go with Tom, Dick and Harry instead of one of the persona's on Lit? Did you not want to offend any of the male authors?

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Re: Re: Re: Afraid of being seen as gay, are you?

Well, let me see, yes, I would say out of 24(?) stories, this is FEW. I hadn't meant it to be a promotion question, otherwise, I'd have included myself.

Still, from what I recall, you spent lots of time with the lesbian action, and not much detail on the male action. Why did you choose to go with Tom, Dick and Harry instead of one of the persona's on Lit? Did you not want to offend any of the male authors?

I went with Tom, Dick, and Harry, because I couldn't resist the pun. As a bonus, I could make them as screwed up as they were without inadvertanly destroying someone's good name. Furthermore, it saved me the effort of finding out any "little facts" for the three characters most in the story. Also, I sent out a blanket statement asking for those who didn't mind being used for literally everything, even if it extended out of the realm of normality, and not many men responded.

The main thing though, was that the use of the three as non-authors, allowed me to use them purely as the comic relief of the tale. I could do anything to them. I could make one a drug addict, another a possessed bastard, and the final a poor shmuck with an embarrassing past. I'd need some heavy duty permission to get away with that level of defamation.

 

[Just-Legal]

It's the standard mainstream porn formula. Straight sex and lesbian sex is ok, and can be directed at the saem audience, since women are in general less homophobic than men. But man on man sex is considered alternative and aimed at a specialised audience of only gay men.

I guess we just follow that pattern out of habit.

#L

Except its not. I point you to the large "slash" communities of both Star Trek TOS and Harry Potter - they are generally written by and for a female audience.

 

[CharleyH]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Afraid of being seen as gay, are you?

I went with Tom, Dick, and Harry, because I couldn't resist the pun. As a bonus, I could make them as screwed up as they were without inadvertanly destroying someone's good name. Furthermore, it saved me the effort of finding out any "little facts" for the three characters most in the story. Also, I sent out a blanket statement asking for those who didn't mind being used for literally everything, even if it extended out of the realm of normality, and not many men responded.

The main thing though, was that the use of the three as non-authors, allowed me to use them purely as the comic relief of the tale. I could do anything to them. I could make one a drug addict, another a possessed bastard, and the final a poor shmuck with an embarrassing past. I'd need some heavy duty permission to get away with that level of defamation.

Actually, everyone who signed up to be a character in the Olympics in the first place had to give 'blanket permission' that any author could use personas in any way their imagination took them. They had to do this in an email either on the thread or in PM to Lou.

Still, not all the women you used are lesbians, not all into SM as for as I know . . . did you also ask if you could use them in such scenarios? In any case, it seems as if you made a conscious decision not to use male authors in a gay scenario because you did not want to offend them, so lesbians and three anonymous gay males, a drug addict, bastard and hobo ( Oh, you know I could . . . LOL.) were used.

 

[Liar]

Except its not. I point you to the large "slash" communities of both Star Trek TOS and Harry Potter - they are generally written by and for a female audience.

Ok, you'll have to fill me in here with a little more info, because I don't understand what you are talking about. What the hell has Star Trek and Harry Potter have to do with mainstream porn?

And what is a "slash" community?

#L

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Afraid of being seen as gay, are you?

Actually, everyone who signed up to be a character in the Olympics in the first place had to give 'blanket permission' that any author could use personas in any way their imagination took them. They had to do this in an email either on the thread or in PM to Lou.

Still, not all the women you used are lesbians, not all into SM as for as I know . . . did you also ask if you could use them in such scenarios? In any case, it seems as if you made a conscious decision not to use male authors in a gay scenario because you did not want to offend them, so lesbians and three anonymous gay males, a drug addict, bastard and hobo ( Oh, you know I could . . . LOL.) were used.

Actually I did ask them permission and explained that they were going to be used for SM scenes and lesbian scenes. I was worried about offending the girls most of all as they were the ones planned to be in bizarre sexual positions.

Perhaps, you want me to be a homophobe here, but sadly I lack that "manly" attribute.

 

[Just-Legal]

Ok, you'll have to fill me in here with a little more info, because I don't understand what you are talking about. What the hell has Star Trek and Harry Potter have to do with mainstream porn?

And what is a "slash" community?

#L

Sorry Liar, I keep forgetting I use random terminology.

Slash - male/male fanfiction pairings.

The majority of slash fan fiction is written by and for women, and a lot of it has high porn content... that was my point.

N/M LOL

 

[CharleyH]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Afraid of being seen as gay, are you?

Perhaps, you want me to be a homophobe here, but sadly I lack that "manly" attribute.

Not at all.

 

[Liar]

Sorry Liar, I keep forgetting I use random terminology.

Slash - male/male fanfiction pairings.

The majority of slash fan fiction is written by and for women, and a lot of it has high porn content... that was my point.

N/M LOL

And a good point it is.

Except that you seem to have a much wider definition of what "mainstream porn" is than me.

 

[Just-Legal]

*shrugs*

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Afraid of being seen as gay, are you?

Not at all.

I know I was just being cheeky about being on the defensive. I constantly wondered when writing the characters in the action if I'd cross the unwritten line and would receive a firm kick in the fracas. Luckily it all turned out okay and my fracas has remained unkicked.

If I wrote it again I might have asked permission to include a circle jerk among some of the judges, but as it stands I think it sttruck a nice balance dispite being outside of everyone's normal sexual activities.


P.S. Also what is up with the conotation that if one is a homophobe, he is thus manly. Isn't someone who is uncomfortable around gays actually revealing a complete lack of confidence in his own sexuality?