AH - not a safe space

[geronimo_appleby]

So, yes, if you don't want to actually show what someone is asking you to show, the response is to tell them them leave the discussion. OK, got that. And it's the typical response on this particular issue. I get that part about not wanting to hear from anyone who doesn't agree with a point that you won't substantiate when asked to do so.

i must be smacked off my tits. i can see a lot of words all joined together, but they make no fuckin' sense at all.

 

[sr71plt]

i must be smacked off my tits. i can see a lot of words all joined together, but they make no fuckin' sense at all.

OK, you have successfully harassed me off an AH thread that I was actually discussing the thread point on and you weren't. (You could throw in some gay bashing and then it would be directly to Naoko's thread point in some perverse way.) Wondering what Naoko has to say about that.

 

[geronimo_appleby]

OK, you have successfully harassed me off an AH thread.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6zEIJGmAhtg/VY6N8qxHb8I/AAAAAAAACHQ/zSW-jRFMDow/s1600/copywriting.gif

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Well, before one of the usual suspects generates another locked thread with his puffery. . . >sigh< I'll try to sneak in another comment that I hope is on topic.

I just want to say Bucky that I am following this thread and I'm glad that you're continuing to respond, I think maybe you as a man are in a better position to tackle this stuff, I just don't even know where to begin with a lot of the things that are being said here.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I don't know if a guy can be a feminist or not, but I'm all for equal rights regardless of race, gender, creed, sexual orientation, etc. I respect the value of an open discussion, too. Not every problem can be solved with good communication, but it's a nice place to start.

Like a lot of men, do I sometimes feel attacked? Sure I do. But I also view most issues as a swinging pendulum. Sometimes it can swing too far in the wrong direction before finding its resting place. I grow weary of how often males are portrayed in sitcoms (or commercials) as being hopeless sadsacks. At the same time, I'm tired of women portrayed as one-dimensional beings in search of a man to love them.

I can appreciate there's fine line between wanting to let someone know you're attracted to them, . . . On the other hand I feel that this issue pales into insignificance when compared with the sexism and harassment women face all around the world,

Yep, I gotcha on that one. Honestly, it took me a bit to sort out, "We're not necessarily talking abut YOU!" That's the problem with generalities, of course, they imply everyone: hence the NAMALT pushback. Hopefully most of the women reading this thread know a man (or men) who they can trust to keep it real. Just because all people have the ability to kill doesn't mean all people are killers, that sort of thing.

. . .and of course as a man, presumably there would be more common ground between you.

Presumably, though not necessarily. Isn't it amazing how some double down on their beliefs rather than entertain the idea that it's time for their beliefs to evolve?

I don't know what the best way to deal with this stuff is when it comes up, but I think it helps to talk about it, to get it out and put it on the table and unpack it, to clarify, as Naoko originally stated, the AH and more generally the internet is not a safe space, but also to let people know that despite this there is some awareness.

I agree. I don't think there is a BEST way to deal with this stuff, but putting out on the table, as you say, sure feels like a good start. Hopefully the bickering doesn't dissuade others from finding help, compassion, or an empathetic ear.

 

[TxRad]

I'm still waiting for the evidence that you're talking about the AH (as you claim to be) rather than the Internet as a whole--but not seen much on the AH. Where on the AH are you seeing this? Frankly I find your posts on this thread rambling and hard to figure out/follow.

GO... Back... And... Read... The... Original... Post.

Naoko did not refer to the AH in particular (Except in the Title) but to things that happen to female writers and female posters in general.

 

[jomar]

Yeah, that has me bowled over as well. The GB is a cesspool of hitting on women and just hitting anyone in the nastiest way when compared to the AH. And yet glynndah has her own thread running there at the moment.

It all depends on your agenda and how you behave there. Insults and alt wars are sport on the GB, but folk like glynnda, OGG and EL are well respected and don't get harassed.

I also with she'd elaborate why she feels less safe here now.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

As far as "no amount of conversation is going to change. . ." >shrug< I think it can help. I think calling attention to a problem can make a difference. Silence offers tacit a approval.

Firmly disagree. Drawing attention to a jerk or jerk behavior gives him the feedback he wants- he's a jerk, he doesn't care about your opinion, but you're talking about him so he wins. By deigning to notice him you legitimize him. Silence is what chills losers.

"Let's talk about it" is the girl solution to everything. I assume it works well with women, but men are generally capable of saying Yes Dear and smiling and silently thinking you're a babbling idiot. If it was commonly possible to reason jerks out of being jerks, we wouldn't need prisons.

You only win by not playing. Don't feed the trolls. My ignore list here is sizable because after an attempt.to reason with someone, I diagnose jerkism and hello ignore.

 

[NaokoSmith]

Please tell me what is wrong with the remarks I made on Glynndah's posts.

Since you ask politely, I will answer your question, on the proviso you understand this reply is not aimed solely at you - you are not the victim here. If you start ranting and trying to twist this thread into an argument with yourself at the centre of it, I won't bother to take part any more.

I don't know what Glynndah's thread in GB is like. It is not my business. It is not your business nor anyone's business except Glynndah's what she posts where. If you don't like her style, don't read her threads and posts.

People inferred on this thread that Glynndah shouldn't be posting sexually explicit material on GB while expecting to come on here and post clean friendly welcome comments.

People often infer to me that I should not post clean friendly welcome comments on here, and sexually explicit flirting remarks. They say I belong on GB.

Nobody says that any guy should not post overt flirting on here. Nobody tries to tell any guy how he should manage his flirtatious or clean friendly posts. Guys have posted forever in Misquotes in such a hardball way that until I went on it, it was a women-free zone. Nobody said: "You belong on GB," to them. Yet people think they are entitled to comment about where and what Glynndah and I and other women post.

 

[_Lynn_]

I expect the GB to be a raucous, sometimes offensive, place. Even so, I very carefully pick and choose what threads I post in and which posters I ignore.

The AH has changed dramatically since I first began writing for this site. I realize all things do change and it's inevitable.

I do that on the AH. It's not that hard to ignore a thread.

For what it's worth, I've not experienced any rude or demeaning behavior on the AH. I have kept my flirting very low key, but even in a past incarnation that was more interactive, I've not experienced the kind of issues Naoko mentions. Several reasons might include my purposely nondescript moniker, and the fact that I posted my age bracket on the story side, so I may be in that invisible class. Very occasionally I've had PMs but they've been polite and non-insistent. Thank you, gentlemen, for ignoring me, oh no, behaving so nicely. Seriously.

I've openly flirted on threads since the day I first posted to Lit. I haven't experienced negative issues because of that behavior.

 

[NaokoSmith]

I want to thank guys who have made the effort to show that not all men are pervy jerks who will send dirty PMs to every woman whose profile they happen to come (ugh) across in the threads, or make out they are offering editing support, and then harass women.

At the same time, I think there is a misapprehension here.

This thread is not aimed at men. Sheesh, if even ONE man posts in here that he has suddenly realised the way he behaves to women is exploitative and sexist when all this time he had imagined he was a golden boy feminist, I will take a f*cking day off! (I could do with one to write my FAWC story! )

This thread is aimed at WOMEN. I wanted to say: this kind of thing goes on behind the scenes, it happens on AH, just as much as it happens elsewhere. If you are suffering this, you're not alone. I wanted to say: Don't think you have to put up with it. A person who behaves like that is not a normal erotica editor, he is just a jerk who is hitting on you. Tell him to f*ck off. The world is full of jerks, but it is also full of decent editors who will give you excellent feedback and not dream of asking you for explicit photos in return, for Chrissake. (And it is also full of good men who will not hassle you for sex, but will woo you and engage in loving consensual sex if you happen to find them sexy too.)

In my blogpost I reviewed a comic strip which is very basic. It shows we have not come very far, that men still think they can blag their way round it when a woman says No to sex, and that women are sometimes hassled into coerced sex by this tactic. I tell a story about a very ordinary guy who was not a feminist, nor a gentleman, probably not a particularly nice man. I never got to know him well enough to find out - because he listened to me when I said No. That was a long, long time ago before men were allowed to be feminists. That is not feminist, it is just the way things should normally be, gurrrrllzzzz.

So, guys, if you want to argue with me some more about whether you think AH is a safe place - feel free to PM me. I was badly brought up to be very polite to men so I will probably reply.

Men and women - if you know a woman who has suffered harassment and you want to say you are sorry she had to experience that, don't go on about it. Just post a rose here.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Just one, instead of the multiples it deserves. Unfortunately, I've known too many.

 

[geronimo_appleby]

I want to thank guys who have made the effort to show that not all men are pervy jerks who will send dirty PMs to every woman whose profile they happen to come (ugh) across in the threads, or make out they are offering editing support, and then harass women.

At the same time, I think there is a misapprehension here.

This thread is not aimed at men. Sheesh, if even ONE man posts in here that he has suddenly realised the way he behaves to women is exploitative and sexist when all this time he had imagined he was a golden boy feminist, I will take a f*cking day off! (I could do with one to write my FAWC story! )

This thread is aimed at WOMEN. I wanted to say: this kind of thing goes on behind the scenes, it happens on AH, just as much as it happens elsewhere. If you are suffering this, you're not alone. I wanted to say: Don't think you have to put up with it. A person who behaves like that is not a normal erotica editor, he is just a jerk who is hitting on you. Tell him to f*ck off. The world is full of jerks, but it is also full of decent editors who will give you excellent feedback and not dream of asking you for explicit photos in return, for Chrissake. (And it is also full of good men who will not hassle you for sex, but will woo you and engage in loving consensual sex if you happen to find them sexy too.)

In my blogpost I reviewed a comic strip which is very basic. It shows we have not come very far, that men still think they can blag their way round it when a woman says No to sex, and that women are sometimes hassled into coerced sex by this tactic. I tell a story about a very ordinary guy who was not a feminist, nor a gentleman, probably not a particularly nice man. I never got to know him well enough to find out - because he listened to me when I said No. That was a long, long time ago before men were allowed to be feminists. That is not feminist, it is just the way things should normally be, gurrrrllzzzz.

So, guys, if you want to argue with me some more about whether you think AH is a safe place - feel free to PM me. I was badly brought up to be very polite to men so I will probably reply.

Men and women - if you know a woman who has suffered harassment and you want to say you are sorry she had to experience that, don't go on about it. Just post a rose here.

stop making excuses, just write it.

 

[sr71plt]

People inferred on this thread that Glynndah shouldn't be posting sexually explicit material on GB while expecting to come on here and post clean friendly welcome comments.

Who inferred that? Not me, whose post you chose to frame an apology on. Nothing that I posted was about Glynndah posting sexually explicit material whatsoever. Do not introduce such fallacious supposition to this thread, please. It would be insidious for you to go any further down this road.

The thread was about sexual harassment of female posters on the AH (my answer to TxRad is that the title of a thread does frame it. Your thread title is to the AH. If you didn't mean the thread to be about the AH, you shouldn't have titled it to the AH. Perhaps this is part of why I found your post rambling and unfocused). (And you can continue advertising your blog, which is supposedly against the forum rules.)

My point (and "why?" question) was that Glynndah has chosen to post that she avoids the AH on this issue (posters--presumably her-- being sexually harassed) but remains on the GB. My point was that this seems quite inconsistent, because I don't see much sexual harassing of women on AH at all--certainly not in comparison with what is being done on the GB and other parts of the Lit. forum. I just questioned why she saw so much of an unfavorable comparison of the AH to the GB on sexual harassment of women that not only would she leave the AH and stay on the GB, but that she posted to this thread about it.

Beyond that, I've been harassed off this thread by someone not even discussing the issue, so I'll agree that there is harassment on the AH--just not that I see much in the way of sexual harassment of women on the AH--and you can have your thread now to slide further into an "all men are pigs and no women have any responsibility for being misunderstood on giving mixed signals for not taking responsibility for where on the Internet they choose to play" rant.

 

[geronimo_appleby]

blah-blah-waffle-drone-bullshit-bullshit.

please, shut up, you absolute cunt!

http://www.insidersedge.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/gun-to-head.jpg

 

[sr71plt]

Naoko? It's your thread. You OK with this double standard on harassment?

 

[geronimo_appleby]

Naoko? It's your thread. You OK with this double standard on harassment?

you're kidding, yes? you whiny cry-baby. report the fuckin' post if you're upset. you dish it out, but can't suck it up. what's wrong with you?

 

[sr71plt]

you're kidding, yes? you whiny cry-baby. report the fuckin' post if you're upset. you dish it out, but can't suck it up. what's wrong with you?

I'm apparently not nearly as drunk and/or drugged up as you are at the moment.

Yep, people, this is what true/actual harassment on the AH looks like.

And the fact is, GA, that I take a whole lot of shit here--currently from you--and I endure it just fine. All of your obscene nastiness hasn't done you a bit of good, has it? It's still you ineffectually attacking and me going on about my business.

 

[Gorza]

The only worthwhile comment:

 

[Handley_Page]

GO... Back... And... Read... The... Original... Post.

Naoko did not refer to the AH in particular (Except in the Title) but to things that happen to female writers and female posters in general.

I do wish that more contributors would understand this remark.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6zEIJGmAhtg/VY6N8qxHb8I/AAAAAAAACHQ/zSW-jRFMDow/s1600/copywriting.gif

Amen!

 

[lovecraft68]

"Let's talk about it" is the girl solution to everything. I assume it works well with women, but men are generally capable of saying Yes Dear and smiling and silently thinking you're a babbling idiot.

What a sexist remark. Why am I not surprised at the source?

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm apparently not nearly as drunk and/or drugged up as you are at the moment.

Yep, people, this is what true/actual harassment on the AH looks like.

No, what this looks like is what it is and always has been with you. You state your case repeatedly and rudely, then get snarky then when people respond in kind you are being 'harassed'. Poor you.

And as always you try to throw in the 'gay bashing' remark, which is your final card in your persecution complex hand.

You have made yourself look very bad in this thread and everyone sees it and now everyone is picking on you.

 

[sr71plt]

Ah, my marathon harasser has shown up. Boo!

 

[Gorza]

 

[lovecraft68]

Ah, my marathon harasser has shown up. Boo!

Pilot, you have no idea what harassment is. You're a drama queen who thinks you're a martyr here and oh, my how you carry on nobly despite all the 'abuse' you take.

Its obvious you have no concept of what real life away from your computer is and no concept of what harassment really is here either, you just like to play 'poor me'

This thread has been very telling of that because you have somehow managed to take a thread about the bullshit women endure on the net and made it into poor you.

And the best part is everyone here sees that.

 

[lovecraft68]

Is that for me? Sorry, I'm married, but if you want to flirt well....aw shucks.