America can do better than Capitalism

[BoyNextDoor]

Anyone watch the video?

 

[PoppingTom]

I can't believe that we've actually got people here on this forum defending Stalin, defending Communism, and our course, the inroads of socialism into our own American economy.

Stalin was a mass-murderer second only to China's Mao. Nations with Communist governments build walls to lock their people in, and will shoot them if they try to escape (see: Cuba & North Korea, even today!)

Hitler was a mass murderer, too. And despite calling his party "national-socialist", he wasn't socialist at all. In fact, his hate of socialism was the main reason of his war with Russia.

Chiles Pinochet was a mass murderer, too. No socialist.

And by the way: China is still a socialist country. Same party like Mao. Same old people. No change in the system. Supporter of North Korea.

Yes, thankfully, the most people aren't bigots like you. It's hard to understand that socialism isn't the big bad evil anymore.

 

[Curmudgeonly]

I know. Doesn't matter. Those kinds of things only happen in authoritarian police states, regardless of ideology or economic system, and the only forces currently pushing America that way come from the right. What police-state Communism did tells us nothing about what democratic socialism or social democracy might do.

If only the world were one giant fvcking 1960's hippie commune....

Of course it tells you what "democratic socialism" or a "social democracy" will do...If Stalin...could not get his good little communists to produce and thrive with the threat of the gulag...what makes you think putting it all to a vote changes anything?

People are inherently lazy...all socialist systems fall apart because of this...Stalin may have been a brutal sadist....but the brutality was necessary for the state to function....It always is.

Statism...that will finally work....as long as we get enough idiots to participate...democratically.

 

[PoppingTom]

Anyone watch the video?

Yeah, I did.

I don't know if the bigots will ever get what a big advantage of capitalism it is to be able to criticize itself. When we watched western TV in socialism, we found out that all they told us about capitalism - unemployment, degrading social welfare, high criminality, high costs of living - was true. But discussions were possible, different to socialist media. This gave the western media a great credibility.

I think, all the people thinking socialism has to be bad don't understand that nobody creates a system with the goal to be worse than before. It's even hard for me to imagine a system that has the same dynamics like capitalism without its disadvantages. Weaken the disadvantages seems to be the only compromise in the power play of both systems. Don't imagine you can kill one of both systems for all time. The more you try, the more the other side benefits from your bigotry.

It weren't bigots who killed socialism in East Europe. It weren't bigots in the communist parties who survived these changes and are still in the government.

 

[Que]

Why is it that with all of the experiments historical and on going in that economic model no one ever talks of a desire to emigrate into one of such societies. Always, the fantasy is to transform the place that they live into a newer, better, "this time it will REALLY work version."

If one has such fervent beliefs why would it not be easier to go somewhere already closer to that ideal and work to transform that to your liking?

Canadians, for example, are already welcomed in great numbers visiting Cuba. The climate is better. Just stay.

You have to be schizophrenic to be thrilled with the prosperity that reunification has brought, yet pine for ideals that were never realized in the East.

The fantasy of bringing a "little democratic socialism" into a thriving economy brought to you by capitalism is frankly nuts. Sure, a thriving economy can afford a bit of social welfare policy here, a little there, and in no time you are dragging an anchor.

Madness.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I'm a talented gardener and raise excellent fruits and veggies. No one ever offers to help with the work or costs but most suggest I should give the produce away, to the deserving. Its the Liberal Mindset noted by Lincoln in 1858: ITS THE OLDEST FORM OF TYRANNY KNOWN TO MAN, THE PROPOSITION THAT YOU TOIL AND SWEAT AND EARN YOUR DAILY BREAD, AND I'LL EAT IT.

 

[Que]

I'm a talented gardener and raise excellent fruits and veggies. No one ever offers to help with the work or costs but most suggest I should give the produce away, to the deserving. Its the Liberal Mindset noted by Lincoln in 1858: ITS THE OLDEST FORM OF TYRANNY KNOWN TO MAN, THE PROPOSITION THAT YOU TOIL AND SWEAT AND EARN YOUR DAILY BREAD, AND I'LL EAT IT.

The word "deserve" comes up a lot doesn't it? A person who chose to develop no skills, did not avail themselves of educational opportunities and who possess a limited, at best, work ethic "deserves" a living wage. And "decent" housing, food and health care.

"Deserve has got nuthin' to do with it." -Clint Eastwood as Wm Munney in "Unforgiven."

 

[Sean Renaud]

Why is it that with all of the experiments historical and on going in that economic model no one ever talks of a desire to emigrate into one of such societies. Always, the fantasy is to transform the place that they live into a newer, better, "this time it will REALLY work version."

If one has such fervent beliefs why would it not be easier to go somewhere already closer to that ideal and work to transform that to your liking?

Canadians, for example, are already welcomed in great numbers visiting Cuba. The climate is better. Just stay.

You have to be schizophrenic to be thrilled with the prosperity that reunification has brought, yet pine for ideals that were never realized in the East.

The fantasy of bringing a "little democratic socialism" into a thriving economy brought to you by capitalism is frankly nuts. Sure, a thriving economy can afford a bit of social welfare policy here, a little there, and in no time you are dragging an anchor.

Madness.

Because people love their homes and families and friends. And yes it will work this time and it's working around the goddamn globe!

 

[BotanyBoy]

The fantasy of bringing a "little democratic socialism" into a thriving economy brought to you by capitalism is frankly nuts.

Capitalism has brought no thriving economies to the world.....you live in a fantasy world.

 

[Que]

Because people love their homes and families and friends. And yes it will work this time and it's working around the goddamn globe!

Capitalism has brought no thriving economies to the world.....you live in a fantasy world.

OK, thanks gentlemen...good to know.

Got it now. Capitalism=failed economic model; Communism=boon to mankind, world-wide.

I guess I had that completely bass-ackwards.

 

[Disgustipated]

The word "deserve" comes up a lot doesn't it? A person who chose to develop no skills, did not avail themselves of educational opportunities and who possess a limited, at best, work ethic "deserves" a living wage. And "decent" housing, food and health care.

"Deserve has got nuthin' to do with it." -Clint Eastwood as Wm Munney in "Unforgiven."

You have raised very talented fruits and vegetables. One vegetable was so talented she married a black bean to even further her distance from you.

 

[BotanyBoy]

OK, thanks gentlemen...good to know.

Got it now. Capitalism=failed economic model; Communism=boon to mankind, world-wide.

I guess I had that completely bass-ackwards.

And of course just goes full extreme other end, nothing grey, no shades of color...in Query's world it's black or white, 100% or nothing.

Who the fuck said communism = boon to mankind? There aren't any very good looking communist countries either....China has money but what a shit hole.

But you can't name a single nation where free market capitalism did fuck all but make a couple folks rich as fuck, and everyone else miserable.

Why do I even try? It's query....All iron fisted fascism all the time and anything else is communism and evil!! O'reilly told him so and that's like the word of gawd!

 

[Sean Renaud]

OK, thanks gentlemen...good to know.

Got it now. Capitalism=failed economic model; Communism=boon to mankind, world-wide.

I guess I had that completely bass-ackwards.

Capitalism is a failed economic model or more accurately an outdated one. That part isn't really up for debate. What is up for debate is what precisely we should be aspiring to accomplish in the modern era.

 

[Que]

And of course just goes full extreme other end.

Who the fuck said communism = boon to mankind? There aren't any very good looking communist countries either....China has money but what a shit hole.

But you can't name a single nation where free market capitalism did fuck all but make a couple folks rich as fuck, and everyone else miserable.

I would say that despite of the government's stifling of free market capitalism, your own little experiment in the concept is serving you well. If it were 100% legal and planned by the state, how would that enrich you, or anyone like you?

 

[Que]

Capitalism is a failed economic model or more accurately an outdated one. That part isn't really up for debate. What is up for debate is what precisely we should be aspiring to accomplish in the modern era.

You do realize that ever generation that has ever lived was living in the "modern era" and labeling it such does not imbue any special wisdom or insight?

We are struggling right now. That has nothing to do with "too much capitalism" and the unfettered free market mal-investment of capital.

Free enterprise is far from free these days. It takes miles of red tape, an accountant, and often a lawyer as the minimum bar one must reach for entry.

I would bet you could much easier start a little sideline in Communist China at the moment then open so much as a (being literal here) lemonade stand on the corner anywhere in the great State of California.

Neither you, nor I have lived under anything even remotely resembling a free market in our lifetimes.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I would say that despite of the government's stifling of free market capitalism, your own little experiment in the concept is serving you well.

The black market is the ONLY free market and America hates free markets like no other.

If it were 100% legal and planned by the state, how would that enrich you, or anyone like you?

How about no 20 year mandatory minimum prison sentences?

Getting to pay taxes on money so we could actually spend the shit...That would enrich a lot of people lives like mine. People laugh when I say I give my shit to legit dispensaries, I can't spend it!!Can't do it....so I just give it to other vets who can't grow their own for whatever reason. That's what forced me to whore my Dr.Greenthumb skills out to other parts of agriculture....gotta make real money. There isn't any in weed, not unless you get big enough to find yourself in deep shit and I'm not about money laundering and shit. I do too well otherwise to risk it for a fat Christmas bonus. Shit is all paid for and I'm retired military, all I gotta do is smoke bombers and go fishing for the next 30-40 years.

Just the fact that I MAYBE only have to worry about a 400 and some odd DEA agents instead of EVERY LEO on the beat has made my life considerably richer. The fact that I'm a disabled vet and within state rules makes me SO not even worth their time gives me uber cover man....uber cover. So as long as there are thugs in the national forest building 3,000 plant gardens and I stay above board with the state I have relatively little to worry about. So yea legalization = tha shit.

Planned by the state? It would be a private enterprise man.....the only government planning would be the basic rules and regs for agriculture set up by the USDA and EPA. But at least it would be one.....I could have greenhouses going up, steel building with 5,000 sq feet for cultivation/breeding. Hire full time salesman to go make distribution happen. Pay taxes and spend money....as it is now...it's non profit and I donate my extras to other vets because can't spend cash.

Outside of DOD/gubbmint projects how much 100% planning of industries do you think the gubbmint does?

 

[Sean Renaud]

You do realize that ever generation that has ever lived was living in the "modern era" and labeling it such does not imbue any special wisdom or insight?

We are struggling right now. That has nothing to do with "too much capitalism" and the unfettered free market mal-investment of capital.

Free enterprise is far from free these days. It takes miles of red tape, an accountant, and often a lawyer as the minimum bar one must reach for entry.

I would bet you could much easier start a little sideline in Communist China at the moment then open so much as a (being literal here) lemonade stand on the corner anywhere in the great State of California.

Neither you, nor I have lived under anything even remotely resembling a free market in our lifetimes.

It's not about special wisdom or insight, it's about the fact that the world I live in isn't the world that my grandparents lived in and the systems and practices that worked for them are not going to work for me because the system doesn't.

Of course we're struggling right now and yes parts of it are because of too much capitalism.

Yes, there is a ton of red tape and with good reason. We want things done right and safely and we don't want people stealing shit either.

There hasn't been a free market in the in America EVER because it's that bad of an idea.

 

[PoppingTom]

Why is it that with all of the experiments historical and on going in that economic model no one ever talks of a desire to emigrate into one of such societies. Always, the fantasy is to transform the place that they live into a newer, better, "this time it will REALLY work version."

Yeah, you're right, query. People always head to the better version of whatever. The better car, the better haircut, the better system. That's why socialism could establish anyway.

What you repress in your mind is the fact that there is more than one capitalism. Yours is different from ours (and no, we don't have socialism), and as much as you don't want mine, I don't want yours. But both capitalisms are on the market with many others,and sorry to say that, but the American capitalism has a very bad reputation. And it's pure arrogance to think you don't need to change that, you don't need to advocate it, as deep in their hearts, everybody wants American capitalism. No, they don't. Even lots of your own people don't.

You may think that Cuban socialism has failed. But no, it's still there, Castro's still in power. And you don't hear much about Cuban people complaining, despite Cuba is a relatively open country, compared to North Korea or the former DDR. Why?

No, it's not that they're satisfied with their system. But they don't have much of a choice, with such a bigot neighbour. They think "our system may be bad, but its better than the US system" or "even if I would prefer another system - if the change comes, someone like me will die, because we're all seen as commies". And let them see all those teabaggers going mad in front of the White House, shouting that all people prefering a state run healthcare insurance are "commies" and "only a dead commie is a good commie". They watch these videos everyday in their propaganda tv, and they believe it, as they don't know better.

So I never understood why people in America complain about Obama opens realtionships with Cuba. History told us that THIS is the way to bring changes. It worked in East Europe, it even worked in China. Openness from both sides brought relaxations in the system, and with the changes came the people demanding more changes. That's how socialism broke down.

So if you think bigotry is the only answer to communism, you're dumb or ignorant. Or, maybe, you doubt on the strength of your system.

 

[Dumpington]

The intolerant left

Communism has failed. No Communist nation has ever trusted free elections or a free press. The Hollywood left admires Cuba because nobody in Hollywood has to live there.

Socialism strangles economic growth everywhere it's ever been tried. If you oppose socialism, the intolerant left will accuse you of being a bigot without any evidence.

If you say that President Obama is corrupt (citing the many "Nixonian-like" scandals currently plaguing his administration) or incompetent (citing all of the ongoing foreign policy buffoonery being conducted by this administration), you will probably be accused of watching the FOX News Channel --- which, to the intolerant left, somehow makes you a bigot.

Again, capitalism is what made America great & powerful. When you come up with a better system, let us know.

 

[PoppingTom]

Dumpington prays again.

 

[Dumpington]

Here we go again...

Popping Tom says: "Dumpington prays again."

If Dumpington was praying to Allah, the liberals would be supporting him, as libs fear & respect Islam.

But if Dumpington was praying to a Christian God, then that makes him a FOX News-watching bigot!

 

[PoppingTom]

... if Dumpington was praying to a Christian God, then that makes him a FOX News-watching bigot!

There is much much more that makes you a FOX news watching bigotidiot than praying to a Christian God.

 

[Dumpington]

Popping Tom --- If I watched MSNBC & Al Jazeera instead for my news, I guess that would make me more fearful & respectful of Allah and of the Islamic religion?

And I'd probably be a member of that shrinking minority of Americans who votes for Democrats, as well?

"I'm not on the ballot... but my policies are... every single one of them!" --- Barack Obama

 

[PoppingTom]

Popping Tom --- If I watched MSNBC & Al Jazeera instead for my news, I guess that would make me more fearful & respectful of Allah and of the Islamic religion?

I don't know if there's anything keeping you from your war driven bigotidiocracy. You're not open to the truth, and this is what Islamic radicals love on you.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

You do realize that ever generation that has ever lived was living in the "modern era" and labeling it such does not imbue any special wisdom or insight?

We are struggling right now. That has nothing to do with "too much capitalism" and the unfettered free market mal-investment of capital.

Free enterprise is far from free these days. It takes miles of red tape, an accountant, and often a lawyer as the minimum bar one must reach for entry.

I would bet you could much easier start a little sideline in Communist China at the moment then open so much as a (being literal here) lemonade stand on the corner anywhere in the great State of California.

Neither you, nor I have lived under anything even remotely resembling a free market in our lifetimes.

I have a garden with fruits and veggies. There are no laws or rules against it in this county but I'm harassed by the county government for it. WE GOT A COMPLAINT ABOUT YOUR GARDEN. And they leave after I ask for a citation and fine they cant issue. One of my neighbors, a county employee, tried to dupe me into selling him tomato plants for his garden. He has no garden. I gave the plants to him and he hasn't been back.