Anyone one seen The Christ,
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Dirt Man
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In the Beginning Part II:
Now where was I? Oh yes, in the Beginning.
And on the 6th day of Creation, (As days are figured in heaven, not Earth), God created Man. Quite a statement really, but as everyone is now aware Man is basically made up of chemical compounds worth little to next to nothing significant which can be found in the Earth itself. Zinc, Iron, and whatever. Add some water, and breath the breath of life in him, and God had created man, a sentient being. Evolution aside, however long it took God to create Man he created him, and named him Adam. The proof of that is that we are here.
What isn't evident, or even provable is how God stepped outside of himself at that moment to become the defense attorney when Lucifer took up the position of prosecuting attorney for the Dark side as their leader in the heavenly court. Only in this manner with the best from both sides of the issue defending their positions in the heavenly court could a fair trial be held for each individual down on Earth in the great experiment. So the Way, the Truth, and the Light had to step out of himself, and still being acting Judge also take on the role of the defense attorney at the same time. In essence, on the throne, omnipresent, and also now the defense attorney. Only something that God could do, as after all he is God the Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost. Now in all fairness the son, (Also the Way, the Truth, and the Light.) with his power as defense attorney had the right to go back and forth between Earth and heaven as a witness just like Lucifer, but only for all of Mankind in this issue concerning each individual, or item about men as it is brought before the court by Lucifer to testify on behalf of the dark side's position in this issue. He couldn't bring up what he already knew was the truth about Lucifer, as that would break the agreement of the truce in heaven. (We know of this ongoing court battle from the Book of Job by the way.)
Okay, so now we have Adam in the Garden of Eden, created in the image of God, but lacking the knowledge of good, and evil, or immortality as having either of these two things would have made man equal to what had already taken place in the heavens with the Angels. And for the experiment to work at all, Mankind would have to play out every issue between the sides of darkness, and light. In as much as free will was what God needed from his companions, and also a part of the problem, man was given free will even in his sublime innocence. And the clock started ticking...
To help Adam tend a garden that needed no tending, God put Adam to sleep, and took one of Adam's ribs from him to create a woman. And Adam named her Eve. And it was then that God gave these two first human beings the very first commandment on the planet Earth. Basically, he told them that they could eat of any fruit in the garden at all, EXCEPT the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good, and Evil. As to eat the fruit from that one tree would cause them to die.
What immediately always came to my mind when reading that passage in Genesis was: "What part of die didn't they understand?" I mean they could have eaten the fruit of the tree of more common sense, or fruit from the tree of ever lasting passion, well, maybe they did eat from that one at least. In any event they may have even eaten of the tree of life for all I know, and not liked the taste so spit it out. They did live a long time after getting kicked out of the garden after all. But I digress.
And on the 7th day God did rest from all of his creating. Obviously, time had not just begun on Earth, but also up in heaven, even if not tick tocking at the same speed as we later find out in the old testament. Some equate that a day in heaven is about equal to a year of Earth's time. In any case God did rest from his creating on the 7th day. Obviously he was comfortable enough with all of what he had created thus far to take a break. And he had proclaimed everything he had created; Good, as he created each. EXCEPT: Man. It's all there in Genesis, check it out for yourself. In fact he made a point of calling each of his creations Good before he created Man. His Omniscience, and Omnipresence would not allow him to say it. He already knew the future of Mankind. Disobedient, hardheaded stubborn, and blasphemous, ignorance steep within his own intelligence, greedy, loathsome, and in general morally corrupt unto death, that was the future of mankind. So he could hardly pronounce his last creation Good already knowing the nature that mankind would inherent after eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good, and Evil as he already knew Adam would.
Now most theologists agree that either the serpent was Lucifer in disguise, or that Lucifer had used his powers of intervention with the serpent to end the issue right off from the start by getting the Serpent to trick Man into eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good, and Evil. He may have lied to the Serpent promising it something that the Serpent deemed worthy of having. Whatever the reason, or how it happened, there is no doubt the Serpent initiated the temptation, and for the side of darkness. It went something like what English Lady posted earlier on this thread:
Ok so Genesis 3 goes like this: (I use the NIV version btw)
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Right off you get the feeling that this is where all of those dumb blond jokes come from. Because the woman embellishes what God said by adding the word Touch to what God said. However she probably said it because she was so startled to hear an animal speaking to her for the very first time. This is why theologians believe it was Lucifer in the guise of the Serpent, but I let that lay for now. In any event since Eve hasn’t spoken the entire truth, the Serpent feels free to answer in kind here, and seduces Eve with an outright lie embellished with a dash of the truth as a reward incentive. Regardless, Eve is seduced into eating the fruit from the Tree of knowledge of Good, and Evil, and does. Then turns around and offers it to Adam, who doesn’t even argue about it, just gulps it down because she gave it to him. Talk about dumb, Adam didn’t even have to be seduced. That’s what pussy does to a man. Makes him dumb as dog shit. Blame Eve all you want for being kicked out of the Garden of Eden, but Adam didn’t even protest, and she at least argued against it first before eating the fruit.
Now of course God knew it would happen before it happened, he even knew Lucifer’s part in it. But so now did ever Angel. Which was the whole point to this experiment. I’m sure at that point that Lucifer felt the stares of every Angel at that moment. Here in a microcosm what had basically happened in heaven had just taken place in front of every Angel created. And, in as much as Lucifer had used his power to intervene, God was free to use his power of intervention with man also. What God did then must have surprised the Hell out of Lucifer.
The physical Way, the Truth, and the Light, as we know had actually talked, and walked in the Garden of Eden with both Adam and Eve up to this point. His physical presence always preceded by a special breeze that Adam had become accustomed to as God’s way of shall we say knocking before entering man’s life. Yet this time when the special breezed came there was no physical presence that followed, just God’s voice in Adam, and Eve’s head. And it sounded thunderous to them. Doctors and scientists have wondered for centuries about certain areas of the brain that don’t seem to have any function, or any significant reason for being there. Well, it has been a long time since God has spoken to any man in the manner that God spoke to Adam that day, isn’t it. But the point is, God could no longer face man in his physical form face to face at that time because man’s body after eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good, and Evil was corrupted unto death. (As would be all of Man’s offspring from this moment on.) So it would have instantly killed Adam to see God face to face then because Adam was no longer innocent. God could see his sin as if it were a sun shining out brightly. Even through the fig leaves.
Okay, this is the part that gets all of the animal lovers in an uproar. God immediately replaced the fig leaves on Adam, and Eve with the hides of innocent dead animals down here on Earth. At the same time up in heaven he poured out a measure of the life’s blood of the innocent animals on the two Cherubs known as Justice, and Mercy that sit before God’s throne. The same blood attached to the skins that Adam and Eve now wore in the Garden. With the innocence of the blood of those innocent animals now covering Adam, and Eve’s sin temporarily from the eyes of God, God could deal with Man thru his infinite mercy, and not strike them down dead where they stood. Snapping them out of existence and starting all over again would have given the same results anyway, and God knew this. But he’d had a plan in mind all along. One that he could only hope, against hope, would bring Lucifer, and his fallen third of the Angelic horde back into the fold, but that he knew already wouldn’t because they’d never want to see their own sins as sin at all. Still, he had to give them the same chance he was about to give all of mankind. Redemption. Well, once again I’ve gone overly long. Time to let someone else post.
As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man
Now where was I? Oh yes, in the Beginning.
And on the 6th day of Creation, (As days are figured in heaven, not Earth), God created Man. Quite a statement really, but as everyone is now aware Man is basically made up of chemical compounds worth little to next to nothing significant which can be found in the Earth itself. Zinc, Iron, and whatever. Add some water, and breath the breath of life in him, and God had created man, a sentient being. Evolution aside, however long it took God to create Man he created him, and named him Adam. The proof of that is that we are here.
What isn't evident, or even provable is how God stepped outside of himself at that moment to become the defense attorney when Lucifer took up the position of prosecuting attorney for the Dark side as their leader in the heavenly court. Only in this manner with the best from both sides of the issue defending their positions in the heavenly court could a fair trial be held for each individual down on Earth in the great experiment. So the Way, the Truth, and the Light had to step out of himself, and still being acting Judge also take on the role of the defense attorney at the same time. In essence, on the throne, omnipresent, and also now the defense attorney. Only something that God could do, as after all he is God the Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost. Now in all fairness the son, (Also the Way, the Truth, and the Light.) with his power as defense attorney had the right to go back and forth between Earth and heaven as a witness just like Lucifer, but only for all of Mankind in this issue concerning each individual, or item about men as it is brought before the court by Lucifer to testify on behalf of the dark side's position in this issue. He couldn't bring up what he already knew was the truth about Lucifer, as that would break the agreement of the truce in heaven. (We know of this ongoing court battle from the Book of Job by the way.)
Okay, so now we have Adam in the Garden of Eden, created in the image of God, but lacking the knowledge of good, and evil, or immortality as having either of these two things would have made man equal to what had already taken place in the heavens with the Angels. And for the experiment to work at all, Mankind would have to play out every issue between the sides of darkness, and light. In as much as free will was what God needed from his companions, and also a part of the problem, man was given free will even in his sublime innocence. And the clock started ticking...
To help Adam tend a garden that needed no tending, God put Adam to sleep, and took one of Adam's ribs from him to create a woman. And Adam named her Eve. And it was then that God gave these two first human beings the very first commandment on the planet Earth. Basically, he told them that they could eat of any fruit in the garden at all, EXCEPT the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good, and Evil. As to eat the fruit from that one tree would cause them to die.
What immediately always came to my mind when reading that passage in Genesis was: "What part of die didn't they understand?" I mean they could have eaten the fruit of the tree of more common sense, or fruit from the tree of ever lasting passion, well, maybe they did eat from that one at least. In any event they may have even eaten of the tree of life for all I know, and not liked the taste so spit it out. They did live a long time after getting kicked out of the garden after all. But I digress.
And on the 7th day God did rest from all of his creating. Obviously, time had not just begun on Earth, but also up in heaven, even if not tick tocking at the same speed as we later find out in the old testament. Some equate that a day in heaven is about equal to a year of Earth's time. In any case God did rest from his creating on the 7th day. Obviously he was comfortable enough with all of what he had created thus far to take a break. And he had proclaimed everything he had created; Good, as he created each. EXCEPT: Man. It's all there in Genesis, check it out for yourself. In fact he made a point of calling each of his creations Good before he created Man. His Omniscience, and Omnipresence would not allow him to say it. He already knew the future of Mankind. Disobedient, hardheaded stubborn, and blasphemous, ignorance steep within his own intelligence, greedy, loathsome, and in general morally corrupt unto death, that was the future of mankind. So he could hardly pronounce his last creation Good already knowing the nature that mankind would inherent after eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good, and Evil as he already knew Adam would.
Now most theologists agree that either the serpent was Lucifer in disguise, or that Lucifer had used his powers of intervention with the serpent to end the issue right off from the start by getting the Serpent to trick Man into eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good, and Evil. He may have lied to the Serpent promising it something that the Serpent deemed worthy of having. Whatever the reason, or how it happened, there is no doubt the Serpent initiated the temptation, and for the side of darkness. It went something like what English Lady posted earlier on this thread:
Ok so Genesis 3 goes like this: (I use the NIV version btw)
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Right off you get the feeling that this is where all of those dumb blond jokes come from. Because the woman embellishes what God said by adding the word Touch to what God said. However she probably said it because she was so startled to hear an animal speaking to her for the very first time. This is why theologians believe it was Lucifer in the guise of the Serpent, but I let that lay for now. In any event since Eve hasn’t spoken the entire truth, the Serpent feels free to answer in kind here, and seduces Eve with an outright lie embellished with a dash of the truth as a reward incentive. Regardless, Eve is seduced into eating the fruit from the Tree of knowledge of Good, and Evil, and does. Then turns around and offers it to Adam, who doesn’t even argue about it, just gulps it down because she gave it to him. Talk about dumb, Adam didn’t even have to be seduced. That’s what pussy does to a man. Makes him dumb as dog shit. Blame Eve all you want for being kicked out of the Garden of Eden, but Adam didn’t even protest, and she at least argued against it first before eating the fruit.
Now of course God knew it would happen before it happened, he even knew Lucifer’s part in it. But so now did ever Angel. Which was the whole point to this experiment. I’m sure at that point that Lucifer felt the stares of every Angel at that moment. Here in a microcosm what had basically happened in heaven had just taken place in front of every Angel created. And, in as much as Lucifer had used his power to intervene, God was free to use his power of intervention with man also. What God did then must have surprised the Hell out of Lucifer.
The physical Way, the Truth, and the Light, as we know had actually talked, and walked in the Garden of Eden with both Adam and Eve up to this point. His physical presence always preceded by a special breeze that Adam had become accustomed to as God’s way of shall we say knocking before entering man’s life. Yet this time when the special breezed came there was no physical presence that followed, just God’s voice in Adam, and Eve’s head. And it sounded thunderous to them. Doctors and scientists have wondered for centuries about certain areas of the brain that don’t seem to have any function, or any significant reason for being there. Well, it has been a long time since God has spoken to any man in the manner that God spoke to Adam that day, isn’t it. But the point is, God could no longer face man in his physical form face to face at that time because man’s body after eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good, and Evil was corrupted unto death. (As would be all of Man’s offspring from this moment on.) So it would have instantly killed Adam to see God face to face then because Adam was no longer innocent. God could see his sin as if it were a sun shining out brightly. Even through the fig leaves.
Okay, this is the part that gets all of the animal lovers in an uproar. God immediately replaced the fig leaves on Adam, and Eve with the hides of innocent dead animals down here on Earth. At the same time up in heaven he poured out a measure of the life’s blood of the innocent animals on the two Cherubs known as Justice, and Mercy that sit before God’s throne. The same blood attached to the skins that Adam and Eve now wore in the Garden. With the innocence of the blood of those innocent animals now covering Adam, and Eve’s sin temporarily from the eyes of God, God could deal with Man thru his infinite mercy, and not strike them down dead where they stood. Snapping them out of existence and starting all over again would have given the same results anyway, and God knew this. But he’d had a plan in mind all along. One that he could only hope, against hope, would bring Lucifer, and his fallen third of the Angelic horde back into the fold, but that he knew already wouldn’t because they’d never want to see their own sins as sin at all. Still, he had to give them the same chance he was about to give all of mankind. Redemption. Well, once again I’ve gone overly long. Time to let someone else post.
As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man
sweetnpetite
Intellectual snob
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shereads said:
I was just thinking the other day that a resonable person has got to be able to realize that with all of the different beliefs and religions in the world, the odds that *their* was is the one true way are absolutly against them! And in accepting that, it would be ok to say, "I'm willing to accept that my way could be wrong, and anothers right, but I am willing to take the chance and have faith for myself that I have chosen correctly."
Wouldn't that be beautiful? They wouldn't need to kill over there beliefs, or even convert others unless they were willing to be converted. To me, I think that is what faith should be about
sweetnpetite
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Dirt Man said:
I always thought that pussy *was* the forbidden fruit, and that the whole tree thing was just a metaphore. Think about it, you've got the Tree of *Knowledge* and For Unlawful Carnal *Knowlege* and of course *original sin* has somehow been transformed from what would have been the original sin, (eating the fruit) to sex- unless of course, it was sex all along. And then we say that Jesus was concieved without original sin- some say perhaps because he wasn't decendant of Adam- but wouldn't he have inherited the original sin from his mother (a decendant from Adam and Eve), unless you read original sin as sex again- thereby neccesitating a Virgin Birth.
Just some thoughts from my twisted mind...
sweetnpetite
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Dirt Man said:
Did you ever notice, dirtman, that what the serpant said was true? God said that they would die in the day that they ate of the fruit- but they didn't die that day. They did however have there eyes open and have knowlege of good and evil.
This part throws me for a loop. It certainly seems to me that God lied, and the Serpant told the truth. Am I missing something?
Dirt Man
Literotica Guru
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sweetnpetite said:
God didn't lie:
Their innocence died the moment that they ate that fruit. So in a manner of speaking they did die that day. Before they ate that fruit, and disobeyed God they could have done anything they wanted to, other than eat that fruit, and it wouldn't have been a sin. And I mean anything but eat that fruit too. To them there was no good, or evil, just God, them, and the Garden of Eden. That's what innocence is all about.
The moment we are born the grave digger readies our grave. We inherited that from Adam, and Eve, they began to die the moment that they ate that fruit, and eventually they did die as we know death now.
G
Guest
Guest
DM, How come you're now saying:
When before you said
There are worrying signs that you might be running out of steam.
Please remember:
1: And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2: And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3: And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4: And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5: And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6: For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7: And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8: And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9: And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10: And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11: And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12: And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13: And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14: For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15: Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16: And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17: And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18: And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19: And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20: And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21: And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
This should also be compared with
1: And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2: Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3: Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
7: And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9: Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11: Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12: Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21: To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Personally, I find it quite illuminating to compare the above with:
1: And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2: And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3: And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4: And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5: And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6: And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7: The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8: And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9: And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10: And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11: And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
12: And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
13: And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
What do you think?
Dirt Man said:
When before you said
Dirt Man said:
There are worrying signs that you might be running out of steam.
Please remember:
1: And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2: And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3: And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4: And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5: And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6: For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7: And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8: And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9: And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10: And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11: And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12: And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13: And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14: For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15: Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16: And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17: And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18: And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19: And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20: And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21: And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
This should also be compared with
1: And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2: Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3: Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
7: And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9: Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11: Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12: Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21: To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Personally, I find it quite illuminating to compare the above with:
1: And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2: And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3: And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4: And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5: And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6: And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7: The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8: And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9: And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10: And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11: And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
12: And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
13: And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
What do you think?
English Lady
Erotic English Rose
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Smutpen
Apparently So..it's just a condensed bit...I didn't use the NIV for that reason it is just the version of the bible I use and know best.
Well i assume God threw them out of Eden because now they've got this knowledge they cant get to the tree of life. I guess it's illustrating that the sin has stopped them from having life but that life would be attainable if they could fight through the guard of angels.
But in that case then,the humanity slipped to us by the serpent is not a terribly good thing to have anyway and I don't see it as a gift. Humanity=guilt,doubt,fear etc etc.
Sorry, I over simplify becasue i was always taught that the serpent was the devil but really the serpent was an evil influence working for Lucifer so it amounts to the same thing in the end.
Literally then they were worried about their nakedness...showing themselves in all their glory to God. I guess they began to feel insecure about their bodies and how suitable it was to flaunt'em in front of God.
It is a symbolic story...I was IN the story explaining it,it does not mean that I literally believe it but that I was trying to get over some points brought from the creation and fall story itself.
Why are so many people pulled towards believing in a higher being? Why do so many people in trouble pray and look to the intervention of something supernatural and super human? There seems to be an intrinsic need in humanity for Faith in something other than themselves because humans are flawed and to put your faith solely in humanity is to ultimately be very disappointed.
I believe it is the humanity of a person with faith that pushes people to do the evil acts they do in the name of religion. Also I am sure our "good friend" Lucifer has a hand in it too. Humans like to be right. They like to be proved right and to not have anything or anyone challenging them and their beliefs. This is where so called holyt wars and other such atrocities come from. If you take away the issue of God how do you know these individuals wouldn't find some other excuse to go and slaughter another set of people? Not all war etc is over religion....land,pride,human rights etc all have the same effects on people so to be honest iwth oyu I see all such things as a weakness in humans.
Faith and Acts should go hand in hand. At the end of Galations 5 it talks about the fruits of the spirit. Faith is needed but if you have faith (and therefore the holy spirit inside you) you will show your faith by your acts. Faith without action is well, not real Faith.
By accepting Jesus' sacrifice for you you become a vessel of the Holy Spirit. The fruit of the Holy Spirit will then shine through in your actions. Ok maybe not all of them (that humanity thing again) and having a faith means you have to do alot of the practical down to earth stuff,it's not all about the supernatural.
Jesus death and ressurection are at the heart of the Christian Faith and it's very exciting stuff from the positon of a film maker I guess. I think those last hours of Jesus are more important than you might think. It shows his resolve, his love, his humanity,his pacive nature the lot. It is my faith in action.
We're all still responsible for our actions. Yup its our human nature that casues us to sin. The devil might shove a bit of temptation under our noises but we are the ones who sin. We'll see all our misdeeds when we go up to Heaven(I can't remember the exact text but it's a revelations bit i think) and we will have to answer for them. The difference being that my big long list of sins will be chucked out of the window because i've accepted the gift of Jesus death and ressurection.
We are all responsible for our own actions but we asll seek forgiveness. If you hurt a good friend you do not feel at ease until that good friend has forgiven you in some way. We all seek out forgiveness on some level or another being forgiven does not relieve us of the responsibility of our sin,it is still our sin after all BUT it allows us to leave that sin behind and move on again,to try again.
You are a stronger person than I smutpen.I could not live with the belief you have but as I have explained we do still have the responsibility for our actions but we have a way to learn from them,repent of them and move on.
The ressurection has always been a sticking point for people. I mean it is a miracle. It is a super human occurance it is hard to believe.
Blaming someone else is very prevalent in this world right now. if you fall and slip you can sue someone else for your own clumsiness. Blaming something other than yourself is something we humas are really good at. passing the blame to something or someone else.
When A christian becomes a Christian they have to accept their responsibility. they have to recognise their sin and then repent of it. In fact as christians we take on responsibility for the sins of everyone. I will say more on this later..I need to og and find a particular song to fully make my point...but I don't have the time right this second to do so*L*
Jesus died so that we wouldn't have to pay the wages of sin (Death) not so that we could shrug off all responsibility of it.
Now
Missionaries travel the world over to preach the message and to save souls. That is one of our many responsibilities infact. If a person has never heard the message of Jesus then I am sure God would know if they would accept the message or not....but thats another thing i'm not totally clear on myself (will have a look into it)
Why does the free will explaination not work for you smutpen? What is your take on it...I'd really be interested to hear youir opinion actually
Lucifer's sin was in believeing himself to be more important than any other being. The minute you start thinking like that you become selfish and mean and others lives become insignificant. again i will expand on this later as I was reading something on Satan last night....I will come back later and add more...there are many other posts i want to reply to but i have my 2 year old toddling around me and I have to get to the post office before it shuts.
Shereads....again thank you for your kind words...you really are a lovely person!
General apologies for typo's etc.....this is a rushed reply (still took me nearly an hour to write*L* and i don't have time to go back over it to check for spelling mistakes*L*)
Apparently So..it's just a condensed bit...I didn't use the NIV for that reason it is just the version of the bible I use and know best.
Well i assume God threw them out of Eden because now they've got this knowledge they cant get to the tree of life. I guess it's illustrating that the sin has stopped them from having life but that life would be attainable if they could fight through the guard of angels.
But in that case then,the humanity slipped to us by the serpent is not a terribly good thing to have anyway and I don't see it as a gift. Humanity=guilt,doubt,fear etc etc.
Sorry, I over simplify becasue i was always taught that the serpent was the devil but really the serpent was an evil influence working for Lucifer so it amounts to the same thing in the end.
Literally then they were worried about their nakedness...showing themselves in all their glory to God. I guess they began to feel insecure about their bodies and how suitable it was to flaunt'em in front of God.
It is a symbolic story...I was IN the story explaining it,it does not mean that I literally believe it but that I was trying to get over some points brought from the creation and fall story itself.
Why are so many people pulled towards believing in a higher being? Why do so many people in trouble pray and look to the intervention of something supernatural and super human? There seems to be an intrinsic need in humanity for Faith in something other than themselves because humans are flawed and to put your faith solely in humanity is to ultimately be very disappointed.
I believe it is the humanity of a person with faith that pushes people to do the evil acts they do in the name of religion. Also I am sure our "good friend" Lucifer has a hand in it too. Humans like to be right. They like to be proved right and to not have anything or anyone challenging them and their beliefs. This is where so called holyt wars and other such atrocities come from. If you take away the issue of God how do you know these individuals wouldn't find some other excuse to go and slaughter another set of people? Not all war etc is over religion....land,pride,human rights etc all have the same effects on people so to be honest iwth oyu I see all such things as a weakness in humans.
Faith and Acts should go hand in hand. At the end of Galations 5 it talks about the fruits of the spirit. Faith is needed but if you have faith (and therefore the holy spirit inside you) you will show your faith by your acts. Faith without action is well, not real Faith.
By accepting Jesus' sacrifice for you you become a vessel of the Holy Spirit. The fruit of the Holy Spirit will then shine through in your actions. Ok maybe not all of them (that humanity thing again) and having a faith means you have to do alot of the practical down to earth stuff,it's not all about the supernatural.
Jesus death and ressurection are at the heart of the Christian Faith and it's very exciting stuff from the positon of a film maker I guess. I think those last hours of Jesus are more important than you might think. It shows his resolve, his love, his humanity,his pacive nature the lot. It is my faith in action.
We're all still responsible for our actions. Yup its our human nature that casues us to sin. The devil might shove a bit of temptation under our noises but we are the ones who sin. We'll see all our misdeeds when we go up to Heaven(I can't remember the exact text but it's a revelations bit i think) and we will have to answer for them. The difference being that my big long list of sins will be chucked out of the window because i've accepted the gift of Jesus death and ressurection.
We are all responsible for our own actions but we asll seek forgiveness. If you hurt a good friend you do not feel at ease until that good friend has forgiven you in some way. We all seek out forgiveness on some level or another being forgiven does not relieve us of the responsibility of our sin,it is still our sin after all BUT it allows us to leave that sin behind and move on again,to try again.
You are a stronger person than I smutpen.I could not live with the belief you have but as I have explained we do still have the responsibility for our actions but we have a way to learn from them,repent of them and move on.
The ressurection has always been a sticking point for people. I mean it is a miracle. It is a super human occurance it is hard to believe.
Blaming someone else is very prevalent in this world right now. if you fall and slip you can sue someone else for your own clumsiness. Blaming something other than yourself is something we humas are really good at. passing the blame to something or someone else.
When A christian becomes a Christian they have to accept their responsibility. they have to recognise their sin and then repent of it. In fact as christians we take on responsibility for the sins of everyone. I will say more on this later..I need to og and find a particular song to fully make my point...but I don't have the time right this second to do so*L*
Jesus died so that we wouldn't have to pay the wages of sin (Death) not so that we could shrug off all responsibility of it.
Now
Missionaries travel the world over to preach the message and to save souls. That is one of our many responsibilities infact. If a person has never heard the message of Jesus then I am sure God would know if they would accept the message or not....but thats another thing i'm not totally clear on myself (will have a look into it)
Why does the free will explaination not work for you smutpen? What is your take on it...I'd really be interested to hear youir opinion actually
Lucifer's sin was in believeing himself to be more important than any other being. The minute you start thinking like that you become selfish and mean and others lives become insignificant. again i will expand on this later as I was reading something on Satan last night....I will come back later and add more...there are many other posts i want to reply to but i have my 2 year old toddling around me and I have to get to the post office before it shuts.
Shereads....again thank you for your kind words...you really are a lovely person!
General apologies for typo's etc.....this is a rushed reply (still took me nearly an hour to write*L* and i don't have time to go back over it to check for spelling mistakes*L*)
English Lady
Erotic English Rose
- Joined
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- Posts
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Karen AM you are doing a good thing in questioning what you're reading. don't apologise for not getting it...you don't have to apologise! Justr keep asking and I'll try and keep up
Ok so the serpent is the guy doing the tempting..I guess it's taken that this was the devil doing his bit either in the guise of the serpent (it doesn't say any of the other animals regularly talked..that might be a give away..who knows?*L*) or through the serpent. Sorry if that confused you but since being little I've thought of the serpent as the devil and so i guess I oversimplified there
The major bit of the punishment was them being seperated from God and sent out into the world and kept away from Eden..there were many other punisghments metioned too.
I think God says "us" because of the angels..they're on a similar par to God and from the way the passage looks he'd be addressing the other Angels as well as Adam and Eve at the time.
He keeps them from the tree of life because of the sin they commited in eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. As i think i mentioned before it was probably for there own good. Imagine living forever as a human full of guilt,shame,regret,hurt etc and also to live forever away from God. God didn't want to banish those he made in his image forever but he had to do something because of the sin thing...hence the fact that eating the fruit sentanced them to die...eventually.
We are made in God's image..I think we were on a very similar level with God I mean it says Adam and Eve walked around Eden with God so they must have been very similar. I don't think God was afraid of us and he defintely isn't afraid of us now. We can't do anything to endanger God but i do think we hurt his feelings.
I believe God see's all possible futures...every choice that ever is made is registered by God and he knows all the possible outcomes. So he has our future in his hands but we can still do something about it,we aren't just doing Something we're pre-programed to do.
God was hoping that Mankind and God could live in peace but knew there was a posssibility of temptation coming along and buggering that all up.
I don't think you're at all stupid and i really don't mind trying to explain my faith to you....so please feel free to keep asking*L*
Thanks for your well wishes..the abcess is drving me bonkers and i am taking enough painkillers to floor an elephant right now and it still hurts....but i'll live*L
you are doing a good thing in questioning what you're reading. don't apologise for not getting it...you don't have to apologise! Justr keep asking and I'll try and keep up Ok so the serpent is the guy doing the tempting..I guess it's taken that this was the devil doing his bit either in the guise of the serpent (it doesn't say any of the other animals regularly talked..that might be a give away..who knows?*L*) or through the serpent. Sorry if that confused you but since being little I've thought of the serpent as the devil and so i guess I oversimplified there
The major bit of the punishment was them being seperated from God and sent out into the world and kept away from Eden..there were many other punisghments metioned too.
I think God says "us" because of the angels..they're on a similar par to God and from the way the passage looks he'd be addressing the other Angels as well as Adam and Eve at the time.
He keeps them from the tree of life because of the sin they commited in eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. As i think i mentioned before it was probably for there own good. Imagine living forever as a human full of guilt,shame,regret,hurt etc and also to live forever away from God. God didn't want to banish those he made in his image forever but he had to do something because of the sin thing...hence the fact that eating the fruit sentanced them to die...eventually.
We are made in God's image..I think we were on a very similar level with God I mean it says Adam and Eve walked around Eden with God so they must have been very similar. I don't think God was afraid of us and he defintely isn't afraid of us now. We can't do anything to endanger God but i do think we hurt his feelings.
I believe God see's all possible futures...every choice that ever is made is registered by God and he knows all the possible outcomes. So he has our future in his hands but we can still do something about it,we aren't just doing Something we're pre-programed to do.
God was hoping that Mankind and God could live in peace but knew there was a posssibility of temptation coming along and buggering that all up.
I don't think you're at all stupid and i really don't mind trying to explain my faith to you....so please feel free to keep asking*L*
Thanks for your well wishes..the abcess is drving me bonkers and i am taking enough painkillers to floor an elephant right now and it still hurts....but i'll live*L
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2001
- Posts
- 15,135
Hi Dirt Man, {revised; much harsh wording deleted}
With all due respect, where do you get this stuff? Do you have a pipeline to God? I say this because much is not Biblical, even from a fundamentalist pov.
To call your position "Christian" mainstream (if you do) would stretching things a wee bit. No doubt you'll say the Baptists, Anglican, Catholics, and Methodis don't quite have the truth--lacking that pipeline--but you aren't really in the ballpark of mainstream Christianity. Which is OK, neither am I. I just think readers should be aware that your faith, is not particularly similar with English Lady's orthodox Christianity.
Your distortions and misrepresentations of the Bible, however unintended, would require days to refute. Bible material and interpretation are freely intermingle at many parts of your posting.
I shall point out only one false interpretation for now.
And on the 7th day God did rest from all of his creating. Obviously, time had not just begun on Earth, but also up in heaven, even if not tick tocking at the same speed as we later find out in the old testament. Some equate that a day in heaven is about equal to a year of Earth's time. In any case God did rest from his creating on the 7th day. Obviously he was comfortable enough with all of what he had created thus far to take a break. And he had proclaimed everything he had created; Good, as he created each. EXCEPT: Man. It's all there in Genesis, check it out for yourself. In fact he made a point of calling each of his creations Good before he created Man. His Omniscience, and Omnipresence would not allow him to say it. He already knew the future of Mankind. Disobedient, hardheaded stubborn, and blasphemous, ignorance steep within his own intelligence, greedy, loathsome, and in general morally corrupt
This is overall false, with a mere grain of truth. It's true that after creating each type of thing, God says it's good, e.g.,
25 And God made the beast of the earth...and everything that creepeth on the earth after his kind: And God saw that it was good.
It's also true that the verses
27. And so God created Man in his own image, in the image of God created he him: male and female he created them.
28 And God blessessed them, and God said unto the, Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it: and hav edominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Are NOT followed immediately by "And God saw that it was good."
But, you did leave out the "in his own image." I'd say it's cuz you're banging the drum of man as sinful and rotten, and needing the DirtMan's Original Version of the Savior.
The reason, however, is quite clearly NOT what you say, but because the list is finished. God doesn't comment on the last item, since he's about to comment on the list as a whole Here are God's comments on the list as a whole.
Simply read ahead to to v. 31. The whole list being given and "man" being told to take charge and eat certain certain items, roughly animals and plants. Then God looks over 'everthing' as says as follows:
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and behold _it was_ very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
And here he doesn't add: Except 'man.'
I wouldn't come down on you for a simple mistake; but this isn't. You blacken the character of human beings, in a way neither the Jews nor the mainstream Christians do. A Jew in particular, would be appalled since Judaism never got into innate human corruption and 'original sin.'
J.
{{Added: 12:03 pm est Mar 4. I have deleted a number of harsh words and cutting pieces of rhetoric, above. Sorry Dirt Man. }}
With all due respect, where do you get this stuff? Do you have a pipeline to God? I say this because much is not Biblical, even from a fundamentalist pov.
To call your position "Christian" mainstream (if you do) would stretching things a wee bit. No doubt you'll say the Baptists, Anglican, Catholics, and Methodis don't quite have the truth--lacking that pipeline--but you aren't really in the ballpark of mainstream Christianity. Which is OK, neither am I. I just think readers should be aware that your faith, is not particularly similar with English Lady's orthodox Christianity.
Your distortions and misrepresentations of the Bible, however unintended, would require days to refute. Bible material and interpretation are freely intermingle at many parts of your posting.
I shall point out only one false interpretation for now.
And on the 7th day God did rest from all of his creating. Obviously, time had not just begun on Earth, but also up in heaven, even if not tick tocking at the same speed as we later find out in the old testament. Some equate that a day in heaven is about equal to a year of Earth's time. In any case God did rest from his creating on the 7th day. Obviously he was comfortable enough with all of what he had created thus far to take a break. And he had proclaimed everything he had created; Good, as he created each. EXCEPT: Man. It's all there in Genesis, check it out for yourself. In fact he made a point of calling each of his creations Good before he created Man. His Omniscience, and Omnipresence would not allow him to say it. He already knew the future of Mankind. Disobedient, hardheaded stubborn, and blasphemous, ignorance steep within his own intelligence, greedy, loathsome, and in general morally corrupt
This is overall false, with a mere grain of truth. It's true that after creating each type of thing, God says it's good, e.g.,
25 And God made the beast of the earth...and everything that creepeth on the earth after his kind: And God saw that it was good.
It's also true that the verses
27. And so God created Man in his own image, in the image of God created he him: male and female he created them.
28 And God blessessed them, and God said unto the, Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it: and hav edominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Are NOT followed immediately by "And God saw that it was good."
But, you did leave out the "in his own image." I'd say it's cuz you're banging the drum of man as sinful and rotten, and needing the DirtMan's Original Version of the Savior.
The reason, however, is quite clearly NOT what you say, but because the list is finished. God doesn't comment on the last item, since he's about to comment on the list as a whole Here are God's comments on the list as a whole.
Simply read ahead to to v. 31. The whole list being given and "man" being told to take charge and eat certain certain items, roughly animals and plants. Then God looks over 'everthing' as says as follows:
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and behold _it was_ very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
And here he doesn't add: Except 'man.'
I wouldn't come down on you for a simple mistake; but this isn't. You blacken the character of human beings, in a way neither the Jews nor the mainstream Christians do. A Jew in particular, would be appalled since Judaism never got into innate human corruption and 'original sin.'
J.
{{Added: 12:03 pm est Mar 4. I have deleted a number of harsh words and cutting pieces of rhetoric, above. Sorry Dirt Man. }}
Last edited:
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2001
- Posts
- 15,135
Josh, Dirt Man running out of steam? He's simply cut and pasting large chunks of Revelation, generally without proper referencing or any attempt at commentary.
A Christian like English Lady, will try to engage you, have a conversation, and admit they don't understand everything.
J.
{edited to remove harsh wording. 12:15 pm EST. Sorry Dirt Man}
A Christian like English Lady, will try to engage you, have a conversation, and admit they don't understand everything.
J.
{edited to remove harsh wording. 12:15 pm EST. Sorry Dirt Man}
Last edited:
Dirt Man
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
- Posts
- 800
I guess you just don't get it Pure, I refuse to lower myself to your standards of Name calling, Putting words in peoples mouths, and even twisting what others say to fit your outlook. So instead I just witness, and basically ignore what I think is improper. If this offends your faith I apologize. I realize this is YOUR thread after all. If you don't like my point of view, hey, that okay. It's still a free internet. But being free also means that I don't have to responde to every provocation either.
As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man
As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man
Pure
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Keep posting, my friend, but (from my pov) less pasting would be nice. NO thread is owned, and all comments are welcome even from new prophets and latter day saints.
Sorry, got a little carried away. BUT.
Do you still say God did not declare 'man' good as part of His overall creation?
PS, to calm things if pssible, I'm deleting some harsh rhetoric, above.
Sorry, got a little carried away. BUT.
Do you still say God did not declare 'man' good as part of His overall creation?
PS, to calm things if pssible, I'm deleting some harsh rhetoric, above.
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KarenAM
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Thank you, Dirt Man.
This is quite true, isn't it? But I do put a lot of faith in humanity. Maybe that's one reason I have such trouble understanding religion, because I hear a lot about sin and how bad humans are, and then I go out and I see the most wonderful, kind, loving things being done by people of all faiths and no faiths. And I try and put some of that wonderful human spirit into the characters in my stories and novels, because it makes me feel good to write that sort of thing.
I can see part of this (though I've never quite understood what the devil is, or why such a creature would need to exist), but I'm not sure I would want all my misdeeds to simply be chucked aside. I think I'd rather that I had to explain myself, just as I do in life when I make a mistake or act out of anger or malice. I'd like to think that those who have done real harm, like a murderer or a rapist, would have to explain themselves too. I'm troubled by the thought that so many criminals in prison get to repent and therefore have their wrongdoing cast aside while their victim, who may not have been Christian, has to answer for theirs. That doesn't seem fair to me. So, in short, I don't want an easy forgiveness; I'd rather answer for the things I have done, both good and bad; taking my lumps, as it were.
The thought that Jesus, like Mother Theresa, would be there to comfort me as I did, is nice. And you're nice, too EL (and you too, DM, though I'm sorry I'm not enough of a scholar to follow all your discussions!
.), as well as Pure and shereads and everyone.
Pure
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Hi English Lady, if I may comment on one line of yours (realizing there is much other stuff).
By accepting Jesus' sacrifice for you you become a vessel of the Holy Spirit. The fruit of the Holy Spirit will then shine through in your actions.
Neither a Jew nor a Quaker could accept this formulation, since God's spirit is, AND has always been available. The 'sacrifice' of Christ, alleged 'atonement' or paying man's debt, are not accepted as valid concepts, insofar as they purport to fundamentally alter a) human's character and capacity to receive from God, including spirit and the gift of grace, and b) human's position in respect to being 'saved' i.e., confer an advantage; which is to say, make living in the light, post Jesus' time, any easier, or any better as regards outcome.
If I may point out a couple passages that support what i'm saying about the Spirit NOT coming to humans as a *result* of Jesus' life or death:
Psalm 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore into me the joy of thy salvation, and uphold me with thy free spirit."
Isaiah 48:16 introducing a set of prophecies.
Come ye unto me; hear ye this;.... and now the Lord GOD and his spirit have sent me.
Joel 2, 27-28 speaking of the restoration of Israel to plenty, under God:
And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God.....And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour our my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and daughters shall prophesy....
Note that the last text is a very fine support for women being in the ministry as equals. An old quaker concept.
Best,
J.
By accepting Jesus' sacrifice for you you become a vessel of the Holy Spirit. The fruit of the Holy Spirit will then shine through in your actions.
Neither a Jew nor a Quaker could accept this formulation, since God's spirit is, AND has always been available. The 'sacrifice' of Christ, alleged 'atonement' or paying man's debt, are not accepted as valid concepts, insofar as they purport to fundamentally alter a) human's character and capacity to receive from God, including spirit and the gift of grace, and b) human's position in respect to being 'saved' i.e., confer an advantage; which is to say, make living in the light, post Jesus' time, any easier, or any better as regards outcome.
If I may point out a couple passages that support what i'm saying about the Spirit NOT coming to humans as a *result* of Jesus' life or death:
Psalm 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore into me the joy of thy salvation, and uphold me with thy free spirit."
Isaiah 48:16 introducing a set of prophecies.
Come ye unto me; hear ye this;.... and now the Lord GOD and his spirit have sent me.
Joel 2, 27-28 speaking of the restoration of Israel to plenty, under God:
And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God.....And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour our my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and daughters shall prophesy....
Note that the last text is a very fine support for women being in the ministry as equals. An old quaker concept.
Best,
J.
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English Lady
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Oh We do seem to dwell on how trerrible humans are don't we but remember we are made in God's image and I agree there is a lot of good in humantiy too. Humans are well capable of doing good stuff with or without faith and that is why I think it doesn't come down to just good deeds becasue i can't see how it works.
Say you tell a lie..how many good deeds should you do to cover it or you murder someone..can you earn forgiveness in good deeds for that? That is why I find the the death and resurrection of Christ as our redemption as being fair....anyone can be forgiven if they believe.
I wish i could remember the whole flippin' verse and where it actually comes form but there is a reference (somewhere) about ever person having to give account of themselves before God when they die. You don't loose responsibility for your sin you just don't have the condemnation that goes with it.
A murderer/rapist in prision can't use a proper conversion as a get out of jail free card. To realise Jesus as his/her saviour they will have had to confess their sin and come to terms with that. Just going "oh hey i think i'll be a christian now" doesn't mean a person is getting into Heaven. A person who truely is sorry,truely refrets there acxt surely deserves to be forgiven?
Oooh thats a doozy and i am sure it'll raise alot of debate in itself*L*
Thanks Karen AM
Say you tell a lie..how many good deeds should you do to cover it or you murder someone..can you earn forgiveness in good deeds for that? That is why I find the the death and resurrection of Christ as our redemption as being fair....anyone can be forgiven if they believe.
I wish i could remember the whole flippin' verse and where it actually comes form but there is a reference (somewhere) about ever person having to give account of themselves before God when they die. You don't loose responsibility for your sin you just don't have the condemnation that goes with it.
A murderer/rapist in prision can't use a proper conversion as a get out of jail free card. To realise Jesus as his/her saviour they will have had to confess their sin and come to terms with that. Just going "oh hey i think i'll be a christian now" doesn't mean a person is getting into Heaven. A person who truely is sorry,truely refrets there acxt surely deserves to be forgiven?
Oooh thats a doozy and i am sure it'll raise alot of debate in itself*L*
Thanks Karen AM
English Lady
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I'm not saying it's the only way Pure love but it comes as part of the deal when you do the whole "being saved" thing.
You get the Holy Spirit. This isn't the only way the Holy Spirit moves (personal view here again folks) well least i don't think so anyway.
I know God's spirit moved in the old testament...obviously, it just didn't come into being at pentecost. The Holy Spirit chose the Earth as a Good place for God to do his creating right back in the beginning there. The Holy Spirit came down on Jesus when he was Baptised. This all sounds like the Holy Spirit working under his own steam. I'm guessing that the anointing of the Holy Spirit at pentecost was a new thing.(Not 100% sure here) and that the Holy Spirit could reach far more people through being inside of believers and would be a helper (in fact i am sure that bit about the spirit being a helper is scriptual) to each and everyone. Like your own piece of God with you ever and always. Cool huh?
I'm all for women ministers btw*L*
You get the Holy Spirit. This isn't the only way the Holy Spirit moves (personal view here again folks) well least i don't think so anyway.
I know God's spirit moved in the old testament...obviously, it just didn't come into being at pentecost. The Holy Spirit chose the Earth as a Good place for God to do his creating right back in the beginning there. The Holy Spirit came down on Jesus when he was Baptised. This all sounds like the Holy Spirit working under his own steam. I'm guessing that the anointing of the Holy Spirit at pentecost was a new thing.(Not 100% sure here) and that the Holy Spirit could reach far more people through being inside of believers and would be a helper (in fact i am sure that bit about the spirit being a helper is scriptual) to each and everyone. Like your own piece of God with you ever and always. Cool huh?
I'm all for women ministers btw*L*
shereads
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rgraham666 said:
Thank you, I had forgotten that. I admire Stephen Hawking so much; I've often wondered if his brilliance owes anything to the fact that his non-functioning body means he's trapped inside his brain in a unique way. Reading fiction and fantasizing about things that will never be part of his reality would be more torture than diversion. There is nothing in his world to distract him from pure thought.
Imagine how many people through the millennia have been as brilliant and imaginative as Stephen Hawking, and no one knew? If he had been born twenty years earlier, there would have been no technology through which he could write and speak.
His books give me headaches; my mind is able to wrap around something like algebra, but geometry and abstract mathematical ideas were always beyond me. To read Stephen Hawking is both enlightening and frustrating, because I can follow him just far enough to want to understand more, and then I'm lost. He's fun to read, despite the frustration, because there's no condescension. He's like the few teachers you remember who were in love with the subject matter and made you love listening.
rgraham666
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sweetnpetite said:I was just thinking the other day that a resonable person has got to be able to realize that with all of the different beliefs and religions in the world, the odds that *their* was is the one true way are absolutly against them! And in accepting that, it would be ok to say, "I'm willing to accept that my way could be wrong, and anothers right, but I am willing to take the chance and have faith for myself that I have chosen correctly."
Wouldn't that be beautiful? They wouldn't need to kill over there beliefs, or even convert others unless they were willing to be converted. To me, I think that is what faith should be about
As my sock puppet Tanglefinger would put it. "Belief is so much easier than thinking."
shereads? Hawking makes my head ache too. And my heart sing. As the saying goes, "Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it's stranger than we can imagine."
Pure
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English Lady said,
Say you tell a lie..how many good deeds should you do to cover it or you murder someone..can you earn forgiveness in good deeds for that? That is why I find the the death and resurrection of Christ as our redemption as being fair....anyone can be forgiven if they believe.
Quakers, and probably Jews refuse to get drawn into this "faith vs. works' thing. Your life, how you've lived it, counts: outcomes, intentions, resolutions; opennes to God's grace.
IF one accepted the dichotomy, your solution is not any better than the 'works' solution. As you yourself point out. Converting and getting 'faith' could instantly get Hitler into heaven; and even if he had a few 'slips' after.
I wish i could remember the whole flippin' verse and where it actually comes form but there is a reference (somewhere) about ever person having to give account of themselves before God when they die. You don't loose responsibility for your sin you just don't have the condemnation that goes with it.
Matt 25:33 is quite clear as to judgment and accounting: it's one's life; those who did it to the least of them (e.g., did not feed the hungry) did it to me; the 'goats' pay the price. Note that no implicit or initial 'condemnation' is mentioned (for the sheep).
Now, as to this 'condemnation' thing: I've said it a couple times: You're implying that every Jew before Jesus' time, at death, stood condemned before God. a) That wasn't the case: original sin or normal imperfections did NOT cause unfavorable judgement (so far as we know), as is obvious with Moses, David, etc. b) WERE it to have been the case, it's manifestly unfair, and further a condemnation of Judaism: It would be the case that this God revealed practice/faith/living is (and was) totally ineffective in securing enough grace for (almost) anyone, in all cases.
A murderer/rapist in prision can't use a proper conversion as a get out of jail free card. To realise Jesus as his/her saviour they will have had to confess their sin and come to terms with that.
Exactly. But in most cases the person, now said to be 'washed clean' is not averse to having his sentence commuted or reduced!!
But leaving aside actual jail, you are saying that this 'step of faith' true conversion, is going to get even Hitler off the hook cosmically; i.e., he gets a 'get out free' card from the 'eternal jail.' That offends moral intuition.
Best,
J.
Say you tell a lie..how many good deeds should you do to cover it or you murder someone..can you earn forgiveness in good deeds for that? That is why I find the the death and resurrection of Christ as our redemption as being fair....anyone can be forgiven if they believe.
Quakers, and probably Jews refuse to get drawn into this "faith vs. works' thing. Your life, how you've lived it, counts: outcomes, intentions, resolutions; opennes to God's grace.
IF one accepted the dichotomy, your solution is not any better than the 'works' solution. As you yourself point out. Converting and getting 'faith' could instantly get Hitler into heaven; and even if he had a few 'slips' after.
I wish i could remember the whole flippin' verse and where it actually comes form but there is a reference (somewhere) about ever person having to give account of themselves before God when they die. You don't loose responsibility for your sin you just don't have the condemnation that goes with it.
Matt 25:33 is quite clear as to judgment and accounting: it's one's life; those who did it to the least of them (e.g., did not feed the hungry) did it to me; the 'goats' pay the price. Note that no implicit or initial 'condemnation' is mentioned (for the sheep).
Now, as to this 'condemnation' thing: I've said it a couple times: You're implying that every Jew before Jesus' time, at death, stood condemned before God. a) That wasn't the case: original sin or normal imperfections did NOT cause unfavorable judgement (so far as we know), as is obvious with Moses, David, etc. b) WERE it to have been the case, it's manifestly unfair, and further a condemnation of Judaism: It would be the case that this God revealed practice/faith/living is (and was) totally ineffective in securing enough grace for (almost) anyone, in all cases.
A murderer/rapist in prision can't use a proper conversion as a get out of jail free card. To realise Jesus as his/her saviour they will have had to confess their sin and come to terms with that.
Exactly. But in most cases the person, now said to be 'washed clean' is not averse to having his sentence commuted or reduced!!
But leaving aside actual jail, you are saying that this 'step of faith' true conversion, is going to get even Hitler off the hook cosmically; i.e., he gets a 'get out free' card from the 'eternal jail.' That offends moral intuition.
Best,
J.
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KenJames
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Many of your postings don't make much sense to me. Possibly that's due to my own intellectual and theological inadequacies, or it might be that you're not as clear in your arguments as you think.Dirt Man said:
In any case, I don't see you showing much tolerance for other people's beliefs. You might get more respect if you showed more to others.
Pure
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Dirt Man,
Politely, pretty please,
Do you deny that the LORD, as per Gen 1; made man(humans, male and female) 'in his image'?
Do you deny that, after having made 'man' (humans), He looked at ALL creation and said that it was good?
A one word answer--yes or no-- to each is appreciated, with such sermon added as you may wish.
Yours in Truth,
J.
Politely, pretty please,
Do you deny that the LORD, as per Gen 1; made man(humans, male and female) 'in his image'?
Do you deny that, after having made 'man' (humans), He looked at ALL creation and said that it was good?
A one word answer--yes or no-- to each is appreciated, with such sermon added as you may wish.
Yours in Truth,
J.
KarenAM
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Forgiveness is a noble thing and I certainly won't argue against it, though it's not always easy to do. But are good deeds and bad deeds like math? I've always seen them as existing, to some degree at least, seperately. You can try to atone for something you do wrong (and you probably should), but the idea that good and bad deeds could be balanced off against one another doesn't really make sense to me.
Certainly I've known a number of Christians who deal with their flawed and imperfect selves in the way you describe, by having the grace of Christ guide them. This is good. But as well, forgiveness and redemption are two different things, right? Forgiveness is done by the victim of wrongdoing, putting it past them (and this is why some things just can't be forgiven, like Hitler). But redemption is the return of a wrongdoer into the healthy community, which requires them to change so they won't do the wrong thing again. Have I got that right?
Also...
This idea is cool. The idea that there is a bit of God in each of us appeals to me. It fits my feelings when I write, as though creating calls upon an energy within me. It would also help explain why my Jewish, Hindu and Muslim friends talk about feeling God in their lives just as my Christian friends do. We're all human so maybe we all share this.
And I'm all for women ministers too, even though I'm not qualified to be one.
KenJames
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Except for the last sentence, everything you've said in this post is exactly right. You have an excellent intuitive feel for God, humanity, right and wrong.KarenAM said:Forgiveness is a noble thing and I certainly won't argue against it, though it's not always easy to do. But are good deeds and bad deeds like math? I've always seen them as existing, to some degree at least, seperately. You can try to atone for something you do wrong (and you probably should), but the idea that good and bad deeds could be balanced off against one another doesn't really make sense to me.
Certainly I've known a number of Christians who deal with their flawed and imperfect selves in the way you describe, by having the grace of Christ guide them. This is good. But as well, forgiveness and redemption are two different things, right? Forgiveness is done by the victim of wrongdoing, putting it past them (and this is why some things just can't be forgiven, like Hitler). But redemption is the return of a wrongdoer into the healthy community, which requires them to change so they won't do the wrong thing again. Have I got that right?
Also...
This idea is cool. The idea that there is a bit of God in each of us appeals to me. It fits my feelings when I write, as though creating calls upon an energy within me. It would also help explain why my Jewish, Hindu and Muslim friends talk about feeling God in their lives just as my Christian friends do. We're all human so maybe we all share this.
And I'm all for women ministers too, even though I'm not qualified to be one.
You're better qualified to be a minister than some people I know in the profession. If you ever feel the calling, I think you'd make a good one.
