Anyone one seen The Christ,

[Couture]

God and Jesus are one and the same BUT Jesus is the sacrifice that makes the difference. You can say God came to earth and took human form. God died on the cross and was ressurected. God now lives and reigns in Heaven. You need to believe in God's sacrifice to get salvation.

This is where we get into the Trinity. God,Jesus and the Holy spirit being all one and the same but dufferent. This is how it was explained to me.

Water is water wether it is in it's solid state ((Ice) or it's gaseous state (steam) or it's liquid state (water) .

God is God in his solid form (Jesus) His spirit form (The Holy Spirit) or his original form (God)

Jesus didn't just take a nap. Nope he left us his Holy Spirit and miracles and great acts of God are being done in churches and outside of churches all over the world to this very day.

This is where the belief bit steps in. I believe I have the Holy Spirit of God in me and so God in all his forms is with me at all times. Yes ALL times. He never left. He will never leave and my eternal life starts here on earth...it's just going to step up a gear when I get into Heaven

But why would God place so much on the sacrifice? Because God is all powerful and omnipresent. If God made man as imperfect creatures, and God with his vast powers didn't stop the Roman aggression...really, wouldn't one of the God's have stepped to the plate and helped God's son out? It seems to me that God was just as responsible for his own death as we were.

And what about all those people who came before Jesus? They didn't even have a chance to believe in Jesus. Where did they go? And why did God pick then to come forth. I would have an easier time in believing if he had picked a better time...at least during the Renaissance when there was some sort of scientific method.

And you say that miracles are being done every day. Where is this happening? I mean cause back then we had flying saints, parted seas, people getting zapped into pillars of salt. Now a days we really don't have this at all. Now I know that someone is going to say, "Well, so and so got healed last month."

That's all well and good, but people have these sorts of remissions in other cultures that worship other gods. And speaking of which, shouldn't God have sent a manifestation of himself to the asians, africans, and native americans? I just doesn't seem very fair to me.

 

[English Lady]

Ok so I looked back over the thread to get osme answers for you. DM has a better way with words than me in these things :


Why is a sacrifice needed?

"This all started back in the Garden of Eden in Genisis. God told Adam that if he ate the fruit from the "Tree of knowledge of good, and evil," that he would die. Adam, and Eve did eat the fruit against God's wishes, and therefore commited the first sin by disobeying God's will. In trying to hide their sin, not their bodies, they put on fig leaves. But God pointed out to them that all sin is punishable by death. That blood has to be shed for sin to be forgiven, and forgotten by God. And so God himself slew, and skinned several animals for Adam, and Eve to wear to cover their sins before ousting them from the Garden of Eden. This is where the blood of innocents ritual began. As English Lady explained that later the blood of a goat was sacrificed for Abraham's son. So that it would be understood that one innocent life's blood had to be spilled for to cover the sins of one man. Then later as we learn from Moses during the Passover ceremony, just before God gave man his ten sacred commandments, one innocent lamb's blood could cover the sins of a whole household. Then later one lamb's innocent blood could be shed for the sins of a whole nation. The point here being that unless innocent blood was shed, God could not forgive, nor forget the sin's of man because it was uncovered, and in plan sight to him. In fact the entire Old Testement points to the true Messhia Jesus Christ's coming to deal with all sin by shedding his life's blood for all mankind's sins."


What about all those who came before Jesus?


"Right at the very beginning, when Adam, and Eve sinned, and were thrown out of the Garden of Eden, they were told by God that they would die, and return to the dirt from whence they came. But that Eve would be the mother of all mankind, and bare an heir to the kingdom of heaven who would one day raise them out of iniquity. Her third son, Seth was that child. His linage in the bible is traced to King David, and King David's linage is traced to Jesus Christ. That's why all those begats are in the Holy Bible. The Hebrews knew this because they kept up the cronicals, but the rest of mankind had long forgotten. They knew that when the Messiah came he would raise the dead of all those who had been faithful to the Lord God unto death for that day when Jesus would take them out of Sheol, and the corruption of Earth into the presence of God in Heaven. As I said, the whole Old Testement points to Jesus Christ. When Jesus rose up from death, and returned to his heavenly father he took all of those faithful souls with him who had died up to that point, including Adam, and Eve. As for Moses, most figure that he was taken up to heaven, spirited away if you will by God after bringing the Hebrews out of the wilderness. Moses basically disappears from written word once the Hebrews cross the Jordan river. However if he wasn't spirited away, then he arose with the rest of the faithful when Jesus returned to heaven."


both of those Answers come from Dirt Man but I agree with them


Miracles are done every day. People are healed of terrible illnesses. Cancer's disappearing without trace and other such things. I have met people who have been part of miracles. They do still happen but as they we're in new testament times they are rare and only happen now and then. Just because alot of them show up in the New testament doesn't mean they were any more regular than now,it's just they were recorded and put together in the Bible so it looks like lots all together at first glance.


Also what makes the miracles is believe and faith. It might just be a natural remission but when you are a Christian you see it as the word of God because you see EVERYTHING as the work of God.


Now the Jew's are God's chosen people. It's there in the old testament to see (someone better on bible verses will clarify it for me i hope!) and so it seems natural that Jesus would be a Jew and come to the Jews because they were expecting him as the M essiah. Then his disciples we're told to go off and tell the rest of the world about Jesus and spread the Holy Spirit around. *thinking of pentecost in particular here* and so The Word spread.

Although if you're a Mormon you do believe Jesus popped over ot America for a brief interlude...or so is my understanding....I often get distracted by American accents when being preched to by Mormons. They send out American lad's over here to get converts. I nearly always let them in because of the accent*chuckles*

 

[Pure]

English L, I'd really like to hear your ideas with DM is being so laconic these days.

If you remember, the last quote of his you used didn't help the point at all.

I do however appreciate his capsule history from Adam, in particular:

From Dirt Man's history: But that Eve would be the mother of all mankind, and bare an heir to the kingdom of heaven .

It does explain Mel's minimal use of clothing in the crucifixion scenes, I suppose....

 

[Couture]

"This all started back in the Garden of Eden in Genisis. God told Adam that if he ate the fruit from the "Tree of knowledge of good, and evil," that he would die. Adam, and Eve did eat the fruit against God's wishes, and therefore commited the first sin by disobeying God's will. In trying to hide their sin, not their bodies, they put on fig leaves. But God pointed out to them that all sin is punishable by death. That blood has to be shed for sin to be forgiven, and forgotten by God.

But see if God makes the rules, then why should God need the whole blood sacrifice thing? I mean cause God determines who gets into heaven and all that. What difference did killing a few animals make? Matter of fact, there being eternal salvation etc. what difference if God smote Adam and Eve? Really, it would be doing them a favor.

Now I can imagine that way back in the day they would believe that blood would have all kinds of magical powers. You watch it run out of a man or animal and you would surmise that blood was the only thing keeping it alive. But, nowadays we know that blood is really...well...it's just blood. If you lose too much you die, but we can give transfusions and all kind of neat stuff. And we know that air is just as important as blood.

It makes no more sense to me than the Aztecians sacrificing their enemies to the gods. I'm sure that their peoples figured the next years bountiful crop was a miracle and likewise if the crop was weak, it was a sign for more sacrifice.

 

[Couture]

Right at the very beginning, when Adam, and Eve sinned, and were thrown out of the Garden of Eden, they were told by God that they would die, and return to the dirt from whence they came. But that Eve would be the mother of all mankind, and bare an heir to the kingdom of heaven who would one day raise them out of iniquity. Her third son, Seth was that child. His linage in the bible is traced to King David, and King David's linage is traced to Jesus Christ. That's why all those begats are in the Holy Bible. The Hebrews knew this because they kept up the cronicals, but the rest of mankind had long forgotten. They knew that when the Messiah came he would raise the dead of all those who had been faithful to the Lord God unto death for that day when Jesus would take them out of Sheol, and the corruption of Earth into the presence of God in Heaven. As I said, the whole Old Testement points to Jesus Christ. When Jesus rose up from death, and returned to his heavenly father he took all of those faithful souls with him who had died up to that point, including Adam, and Eve. As for Moses, most figure that he was taken up to heaven, spirited away if you will by God after bringing the Hebrews out of the wilderness. Moses basically disappears from written word once the Hebrews cross the Jordan river. However if he wasn't spirited away, then he arose with the rest of the faithful when Jesus returned to heaven."

So are you saying that Adam and Eve would have lived forever? Well, I for one am glad they sinned...because I for one am glad to be alive. If no one ever died, then there wouldn't be enough room on this earth for those of us at present time.

And do you mean to say that all those poor folks that died before Jesus, had to wait until Jesus came around before they could get into heaven? Bummer. Why in the world would someone follow the old testament? And what about the evil folks? Did they get a free pass to heaven?

You know, cause there were some pretty damned evil sonsabitches back then. It doesn't seem fair that they got a free ticket to heaven, and I don't...just because I have a hard time believing in the whole religion thing.

 

[KenJames]

But why would God place so much on the sacrifice? Because God is all powerful and omnipresent. If God made man as imperfect creatures, and God with his vast powers didn't stop the Roman aggression...really, wouldn't one of the God's have stepped to the plate and helped God's son out? It seems to me that God was just as responsible for his own death as we were.

And what about all those people who came before Jesus? They didn't even have a chance to believe in Jesus. Where did they go? And why did God pick then to come forth. I would have an easier time in believing if he had picked a better time...at least during the Renaissance when there was some sort of scientific method.

And you say that miracles are being done every day. Where is this happening? I mean cause back then we had flying saints, parted seas, people getting zapped into pillars of salt. Now a days we really don't have this at all. Now I know that someone is going to say, "Well, so and so got healed last month."

That's all well and good, but people have these sorts of remissions in other cultures that worship other gods. And speaking of which, shouldn't God have sent a manifestation of himself to the asians, africans, and native americans? I just doesn't seem very fair to me.

Not all Christians hold the views Dirt Man and English Lady are expressing.

If you were to ask a Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, Quaker and Mormon (to name a few denominations) the same theological question you would get different, often radically different, answers.

Many Baptists believe the King James Bible, written in the seventeenth century, is the one true revealed Word of God. If that's the case, what happened to the Christians who lived and died before the Word was revealed? What's happening to the Christians who use a different Bible today? I'm not bringing this up to pick on Baptists, but only to show that Christians disagree on fundamental issues.

It all comes down to faith. My faith teaches, and I believe, that God does not trap people with arbitrary rules and does manifest Himself to different peoples in different ways.

 

[English Lady]

Pure...The quotes i used might not be faultless in your eyes but they are far better than anything i could come up with,so that's why I quoted them


I think DM is sick of arguing for arguings sake actually...but i dunno..you'd be better asking him.


Couture.... God made us in his image. I can only assume that is why he gave us free will and we buggered it up. We gave into temptation at the first hurdle. Now this was possibly in God's plans....I don't know...maybe he sees myriads of futures and in each of those futures something different happens. (If you read Pratchett I'm talking about the trousers of time theory) The thing is he had to work with what he got which in the end was two imperfect sinners. God is a perfect being who can't abide sin so Adam and Eve had to be banished. (cause and effect I guess) and God, not wanting to give up on his creation came up with the blood of the innocent idea,that innocence form the pure animal sacrifice cleansed the people of the old testament from their sin so they could commune with God.




Yes Adam and Eve would have lived forever. I don't know how that would have worked but i think it would have been,well Heaven really. Its a concept hard to get your head around because we don't have constant joy and we can't really imagine it either.


Blood is just blood. I think the word blood could be subtituted with the word essence or spirit. An innocent spirit was needed to bring Man close to God so like he used animal skins to cover his nakedness he used Innocent animal spirit to cover his sin stained human one.



Adame and Eve wsould have lived forever in paradise with God. I don't know how it would have worked but it would have been heaven. Complete perfection. Our human minds can't grasp this concept as really not much in our lives is perfection! But I am pretty sure that Adam and Eve would have been happy and content forever.

Time is a linear thing to us...to God who knows how he views time? once you die i don't know how time effects you but I am pretty sure that Moses,Abraham etc weren't sat in a waiting room before they could get into heaven...or if they were it wasn't very long at all to them. That is all guessing on my part, I really don't know BUT I am sure that God looks after his own so i don't think the Old testament folks suffered whilst waiting for Jesus.



The blood sacrifice gave you the opportunity to commune with God, it wasn't a get out of jail free card. You had to sincerely repent of your sin,not just sacrifice a handy bull to even have a chance at Heaven!

Evil is as evil then as it is now and as evil as it will be till the end of the Earth. Evil and sinful persons don't get to Heaven. Only those who seek forgiveness do. Back in the Old testament this meant repenting of every sin. Now we have Jesus' Sacrifice which covers the forgiveness thing.



*EL apologises for typos,spelling mistakes or garbled sentances..it is nigh on midnight and past my bedtime*L**

 

[KarenAM]

I must confess that I find theology confusing, and English Lady, I both appreciate and admire your efforts to explain this to those of us who aren't Bible scholars.

Here's what's confusing me right now:

The thing is he (God) had to work with what he got which in the end was two imperfect sinners. God is a perfect being who can't abide sin so Adam and Eve had to be banished. (cause and effect I guess) and God, not wanting to give up on his creation came up with the blood of the innocent idea,that innocence form the pure animal sacrifice cleansed the people of the old testament from their sin so they could commune with God.

So God isn't omnipotent? God has rules that he has to follow, and one of those is that he can't abide sin even though he loves his human creations? If so, who made these rules that God has to follow? Does God have his own God that he has to obey? Does God have to do what the Bible tells him to do? Why?

Because if God is actually omnipotent and perfect, it seems to me that God wouldn't be bound by the rules that theologians use to justify theological dogma, would he? He could abide sin the same way a loving parent abides it in their children, correcting it on a case by case basis with the intention that the child will grow up to be a good, moral adult. An omnipotent God would be able to guide us in our free will directly, because he's omnipotent.

So you can see my confusion, I hope. I'm not a Bible expert and I can't rattle off verses and passages or anything like that. When I've read the stories about Jesus in the Bible I've always been impressed with how kind and forgiving he was to the poor and dispossessed. He fought against evil by being kind, right? Why can't God do that? Is it against the rules for God to be kind like Jesus was? Why?

Anyway, I hope you will all forgive my questions, since you all seem to know this stuff so well and I don't. Maybe I'm just stupid and have missed something.

 

[Couture]

And if God was so perfect, how in the world did he make so much imperfect stuff. Adam and Eve was made in God's image, yet, there was sin in them. And then there was that whole Lucifer thing.

See, I'm not perfect and if I were to build a house and it leaked...well it would be silly to blame the house for the leak. I'm the builder...it's my responsibility in the end. The house has no more choice to leak than I do to do the things I do.

 

[KenJames]

I must confess that I find theology confusing, and English Lady, I both appreciate and admire your efforts to explain this to those of us who aren't Bible scholars.

Here's what's confusing me right now:



So God isn't omnipotent? God has rules that he has to follow, and one of those is that he can't abide sin even though he loves his human creations? If so, who made these rules that God has to follow? Does God have his own God that he has to obey? Does God have to do what the Bible tells him to do? Why?

Because if God is actually omnipotent and perfect, it seems to me that God wouldn't be bound by the rules that theologians use to justify theological dogma, would he? He could abide sin the same way a loving parent abides it in their children, correcting it on a case by case basis with the intention that the child will grow up to be a good, moral adult. An omnipotent God would be able to guide us in our free will directly, because he's omnipotent.

So you can see my confusion, I hope. I'm not a Bible expert and I can't rattle off verses and passages or anything like that. When I've read the stories about Jesus in the Bible I've always been impressed with how kind and forgiving he was to the poor and dispossessed. He fought against evil by being kind, right? Why can't God do that? Is it against the rules for God to be kind like Jesus was? Why?

Anyway, I hope you will all forgive my questions, since you all seem to know this stuff so well and I don't. Maybe I'm just stupid and have missed something.

No, you're not stupid or missing something. You're asking very good questions. The answers come down to faith and individuals have to work that out for themselves.

 

[KenJames]

And if God was so perfect, how in the world did he make so much imperfect stuff. Adam and Eve was made in God's image, yet, there was sin in them. And then there was that whole Lucifer thing.

See, I'm not perfect and if I were to build a house and it leaked...well it would be silly to blame the house for the leak. I'm the builder...it's my responsibility in the end. The house has no more choice to leak than I do to do the things I do.

You do have responsibility for your actions. I don't think God cares what Name you call Him or what words you use to worship Him, but you do have to choose between doing good and evil and face the consequences of your decision.

 

[Linbido]

Ok, there are alot of big questions flying about here. How about a totally different Christian perspecive, quite far from church dogmas: Mine. No, I'm not alone in this sentiment, but I'm not a theologist, so I don't know what 'we' are called.

It's all very simple. The Bible is 90% fairy-tale and metaphor. Yes, I say this as a convinced believer in God and Jesus Christ. God did not create the world in one week, and Adam and Eve as individuals never existed. It was a convenient and impressive way of explaining something much more complex and monumental for an audience some millennia and a half ago. And most of the tales of the old testament is just that, moral guidelines and more complex historical events told so that the reader would understand anything of what was being said.

We are all mammals, and we are all derived from the amoebas of the primorial snot. And this is exactly why I do belive in a higher power. Evolution is a process that is so bloody ingenious that I can't see that it just happened by accident.

Ok, question nr 2. Does God have a God? Is He the big guy only for mankind and this planet, or for more? Fuck knows. Or rather, God knows, and he ain't about to tell us.

Which brings us to question nr 3: If God is perfect, why is his creation imperfect? Well, either God is not perfect, or he designed us with imperfections. I believe in the latter. There is a grand scheme here. My best guess would be that it is our task as individuals, with the guidance of our faith and morals, to overcome those imperfections. Maybe that's God's way to weed out the good, strong souls by yet another layer of natural selection. A minister and friend of mine explained it like this:

I think God made life so that a spieces intelligent enough to have conscious souls would appear. And now that we are here, God collects the harvest. Your body is a cocoon for your soul, and the longer you keep it in the body, the more time you have to nuture and shape it into something that God wants.

I rather like that idea.

Edited to add: If English Lady (or the real fanatics) is right, then I am definitely in the risk zone for being kept out of the afterlife with the rest of the pagans- On the other hand, if I'm right, both she and I and many of the pagans will join her.

 

[smutpen]

Well.

I respect the right of believers to view this as they wish.

But from the point of view of an unbeliever, things look very different.

The most controversial aspect of the film is that it focuses heavily on the Jews' responsibility for Christ's death. Being of Jewish descent, I'm rather sensitive to that.

It's not at all surprising to me that the Nicene council, deliberating under the watchful eye of Emperor Constantine, chose to endorse versions of the story which portrayed the noble Romans being manipulated by the evil Jews to execute Jesus.

From Matthew:

27:24
When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

27:25
Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.


These words and the attitude they convey do not justify all the hatred and suffering and death they led to. Yet the result should have been predictable to any intelligent human, to say nothing of an allegedly omniscient deity.


And to one who has studied other beliefs and traditions, the Eden story seems to have a very different meaning than the one commonly accepted.

Read it again, carefully. This appers to me to be a "Prometheus" type of story. God is the villain, and the serpent is the friend of humanity, who suffers for it.

God lies, and the snake tells the truth. God spills the beans in Gen 3:22 -- 24:

3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil (note: just as the serpent said; God said they would die if they ate it): and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

3:23
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.



So, if they had managed to eat from the tree of life, then they'd have lived forever just as the serpent said. Apparently God could not negate or overcome the power of the fruit; he had to have it guarded, instead?

Of course, there are other problems. If the humans were ignorant of right and wrong before eating the fruit, how could they know it was wrong to disobey?

The evidence against them was their recognition that their nakedness was a bad thing. If they were the only two people on earth, and had been naked together since they were made, how could it be wrong or evil for them to be naked?

etc.

Just my viewpoint; luckily we're all free to have our own.

 

[Pure]

Linbido and Smutpen, those are good postings.

IMO, there are two root issues:

1) the adequacy of Judaism, and its people allegedy being rightly supplanted by Christians as 'the new Israel'

2) the death of the messenger.

On 1) You can NOT have Jesus blood, death, or even "belief in him" as a crucial part of 'saving sinners' or the whole OT is a buncha crap. (indeed an early group of Chrisitian wanted to drop the OT.)

Even Paul says that Abrahams faith was reckoned to him as righteousness, and indicated that Abe was 'saved.'

On 2) It's very embarrassing if a messenger, not to say 'son of God' (no cap) gets executed. What the heck is that supposed to mean???? Where is the model???? Well there are *occasional prophets who got killed, but that's a slender reed.

There is the 'suffering servant' stuff that Mel has put on his souvenir nails; the figure who is 'wounded for our transgressions.' (in late Isaiah 53).

That aint much. Apparently Paul had the bright idea to build on that: that the death was planned, and that it was a kind of sacrifice (God propitiating himself by having his own son killed).

And so all the puzzling stuff is turned on its head. The First HAD to be last. Jesus HAD to die, etc. The death isn't a problem it's a necessity! Brilliant! Clever! Further this is a crucial selling point of early Christianity; the persecuted ones will get the gold crown; following the pre-ordained path of Jesus, who HAD to die to be raised up.

Matthew took up the sacrifice thing from Mark who {Added: perhaps} took it from Paul, but it's not without problems. It's kinda crude. Cruder than any 'blood sacrifices' of the OT. And if it does propitiate God and cleanse the sinner, what's supposed to happen next? (Look at Falwell, and you'll see! [sound of fly being unzipped])

In my view, by the time of Luke it's quite downplayed, almost absent-- read late Luke on the last supper etc. In John, it aint there at all.

"I am the bread from heaven". JC is to be eaten and his blood drunk. Symbolically. ( Better in my opinion: I am the true vine and ye are the branches. ) The Jews are going to off him, but that's just cuz they can't bear hearing the truth.* It isn't what his death does for us, except to open new chapter of 'being in Christ.' Now there's a task**. Not unknown to Paul, of course, in his non propitiatory states of mind. (We are all members of Christ.)

J.


---
*It's debatable if John's an improvement over Matthew in the respect for the Jews dept. What do you think Smut? But then again, that wasn't John's objective. John did have a little more class than to come up with Pilate yielding to the crowd howling for blood... and its own punishment forever.*** But making the Jews part of a cosmic "dark force" isn't such a compliment either!

** One Quakers set themselves

***{Added 2-03: This is not entirely accurate: Matt and John both have pre crucifixion scenes with many details inculpating the Jews. John has it that "the Jews" wanted Jesus killed--no qualification. It's Matt however who adds the anti Semite's favorite line "His blood be on us, and on our children."}

 

[smutpen]

*It's debatable if John's an improvement over Matthew in the respect for the Jews dept. What do you think Smut? But then again, that wasn't John's objective. John did have a little more class than to come up with Pilate yielding to the crowd howling for blood... and its own punishment forever. But making the Jews part of a cosmic "dark force" isn't such a compliment either!

I think John may be the worst of all in this regard:

19:12
And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.

While the synoptic gospels refer to the priests and elders, or to the multitude -- the crowd that was present -- John refers, again and again, to "the Jews."

What if the setting were America? What if Jesus and all his followers were American? What if a description were written that repeatedly attributed guilt for his suffering and death to "the Americans?" Would that seem fair? Truthful? Divinely inspired?

Not to me.

 

[shereads]

There are biblical scholars who will say that "The Jews" is a broad interpretation of the Jewish power elite, and that it was likely never intended to mean all of the Jewish people - Why would it, when Jesus was born of a Jewish mother and had Jewish disciples? After all, he was being persecuted because his popularity made him a threat. If the entire community was calling for his blood, with whom was he so popular that the power structure was threatened?

 

[smutpen]

There are biblical scholars who will say that "The Jews" is a broad interpretation of the Jewish power elite, and that it was likely never intended to mean all of the Jewish people - Why would it, when Jesus was born of a Jewish mother and had Jewish disciples? After all, he was being persecuted because his popularity made him a threat. If the entire community was calling for his blood, with whom was he so popular that the power structure was threatened?

The intent may not have been to blame the Jewish people en masse, nor to contribute to centuries of persecution. If not, the difference between intent and result does not make a strong case for divine inspiration or guidance...

Again, the probable results of such phrasing should not have been difficult to predict.

 

[Pure]

Hi Smut,

Pure: John did have a little more class than to come up with Pilate yielding to the crowd howling for blood... and its own punishment forever. But making the Jews part of a cosmic "dark force" isn't such a compliment either!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Smut:I think John may be the worst of all in this regard:
19:12
And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar. [end Smut's quotation of John]
---------------------

I tend to agree with you, Smut, though GJohn is a favorite of many of my friends. The "sayings" of John, esp at 6:53 sound most UNJewish (eat my flesh and drink my blood).

GMatt seems closer to Judaism in many ways; probably Matt was a Jew. There is a fine book by a rabbi pointing out the rabbinic sources of the "Jesus sayings" of Matthew, the most well known and obvious example, at 22:37-9 (Love God. Love thy neighbor).

At Mt 5:17, J says he has NOT come to abolish the law and the prophets.... Mt, like Mark, makes the arrest of J, part of a plot by the high priests. Mt is not a bad starting point for comparison to the great Jewish teachers, like Hillel, for instance on forgiveness.

Malcolm Hay, in _Thy Brother's Blood_ the classic on Christian hatred of Jews, is most concerned about John. *{1950/1975 p. 15)

What did you think of the Safire review I posted. Do you know if S is a Christian or a Jew or ??.

Best,
J.

*Added: Hay shows how Christian saints and thinkers for centuries DID take John at face value, regarding "the Jews," e.g., St. Chrysostom, Gregory of Nyssa etc. The liberal scholars mentioned by Shereads are doing a bit of very late 'lawyering' for John, and I'll bet, writing after WWII (when there's a bit of guilt floating around!). John is a very popular gospel, cited, for instance by Dirt Man, earlier in this thread; and there's a need for a helluva lotta lawyering to clean it up.

 

[English Lady]

This is where I really wish I was a theologian! By gum what a set of posts to be greeted with first thing in a morning! OK , EL steps up to the plate and TRIES to explain things. Please note EL is human and therefore fallable...I'm just doing my best here ok?*L*


Karen AM, I certainly can understand your confusion and i guess I share in it a bit too *L* Now the only thing I am clear on is that God is a perfect being with no sin at all but he has free will,intelligence, the ability to think and create.....all seen in the creation story. God is pure,he's got the nicest looking freshly laundered suit on you can imagine. We however are sinful (that whole free will thing backfiring i guess*L*) and our clothing is mud stained. God can't hug us without that mud transfering onto him..if he gets dirty he's no longer the perfect God is he? So that's where the quandry is.

Now we as parents put up with sin and we forgive sin....so does God....quite happily he forgives but we have to aks forgiveness now if we don't believe we're in the wrong it doesn't matter how much God forgives us because we won't accept it because we don't believe we're in the wrong anyway! So theats when we get back to the sin preventing us form getting To God thing again.




Now Why this is how it is I don't exactly know..as Ken James said its a matter of Faith and this is what I believe. I will do my best to explain what I believe but I can do no more. My faith is my faith and is unique like that.


Couture I think I explained the imperfections in what I just said. We were made in his image...we had the capacity to be like God which meant he gave us decision making skills,free will,creative thought etc. If he made us into Perfect little clones we wouldn't be like him because we wouldn't have those intrinsic Godly characters I just mentioned.


Linbido...I agree a little with what you say...i think certain things are illustrations...like the creation story but you can't just dismiss the Old testament so quickly. They we're real people wioth real Faith and Jesus when he came along pointed back to the things they said and on occassions explained them further. The OT points to the Messiah....To Jesus himself.

Also I do see why the idea of the "perfect" human being evolved is an attractive idea....but well if that's so I am completely buggered. I don't have the intelligence needed to grasp the theologies and I sure as hell haven't got the strong will needed to reign in my sinning. I would be off to hell with every bugger else if that was the case.

Now Here is A passage from 1 corinthians 1. This to me is very reassuring:

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things -- and the things that are not -- to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."


So it doesn't matter how complex or simple your belief is what matters is that you do believe. Which is a great relief to me I can tell you.

So I believe it is the death and resurrection of Christ and the belief in that that really matters. As I have said before...this is my belief...I can't 100% say it's the 100% right belief...I'm human afterall.


(gonna start a new post this is getting looooooong!)

 

[shereads]

This is where I really wish I was a theologian! By gum what a set of posts to be greeted with first thing in a morning! OK , EL steps up to the plate and TRIES to explain things. Please note EL is human and therefore fallable...I'm just doing my best here ok?*L*


Karen AM, I certainly can understand your confusion and i guess I share in it a bit too *L* Now the only thing I am clear on is that God is a perfect being with no sin at all but he has free will,intelligence, the ability to think and create.....all seen in the creation story. God is pure,he's got the nicest looking freshly laundered suit on you can imagine. We however are sinful (that whole free will thing backfiring i guess*L*) and our clothing is mud stained. God can't hug us without that mud transfering onto him..if he gets dirty he's no longer the perfect God is he? So that's where the quandry is.

Now we as parents put up with sin and we forgive sin....so does God....quite happily he forgives but we have to aks forgiveness now if we don't believe we're in the wrong it doesn't matter how much God forgives us because we won't accept it because we don't believe we're in the wrong anyway! So theats when we get back to the sin preventing us form getting To God thing again.




Now Why this is how it is I don't exactly know..as Ken James said its a matter of Faith and this is what I believe. I will do my best to explain what I believe but I can do no more. My faith is my faith and is unique like that.


Couture I think I explained the imperfections in what I just said. We were made in his image...we had the capacity to be like God which meant he gave us decision making skills,free will,creative thought etc. If he made us into Perfect little clones we wouldn't be like him because we wouldn't have those intrinsic Godly characters I just mentioned.


Linbido...I agree a little with what you say...i think certain things are illustrations...like the creation story but you can't just dismiss the Old testament so quickly. They we're real people wioth real Faith and Jesus when he came along pointed back to the things they said and on occassions explained them further. The OT points to the Messiah....To Jesus himself.

Also I do see why the idea of the "perfect" human being evolved is an attractive idea....but well if that's so I am completely buggered. I don't have the intelligence needed to grasp the theologies and I sure as hell haven't got the strong will needed to reign in my sinning. I would be off to hell with every bugger else if that was the case.

Now Here is A passage from 1 corinthians 1. This to me is very reassuring:

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things -- and the things that are not -- to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."


So it doesn't matter how complex or simple your belief is what matters is that you do believe. Which is a great relief to me I can tell you.

So I believe it is the death and resurrection of Christ and the belief in that that really matters. As I have said before...this is my belief...I can't 100% say it's the 100% right belief...I'm human afterall.


(gonna start a new post this is getting looooooong!)

As gentle and humble an explanation of faith as I've ever heard. I may not share it, but I envy it and it's nice to hear it expressed as you have, and illustrated with such an inclusive passage of scripture. Thank you, EL.

 

[shereads]

The intent may not have been to blame the Jewish people en masse, nor to contribute to centuries of persecution. If not, the difference between intent and result does not make a strong case for divine inspiration or guidance...

Again, the probable results of such phrasing should not have been difficult to predict.

A keyword search for "bible" will bring up sites offering anywhere from eight to more than a dozen English-language translations of the new testament. Not having read the original books and having been exposed almost exclusively to the King James version when I was growing up, I don't know how much of that is a translation issue. As Gary C. once pointed out in a religion thread here (WHERE IS GARY C? WAS HE OFF SOMEPLACE WITH MATH GIRL?), as originally written, the word "virgin" was the same as the word for "young girl." Whether there's been a serious misunderstanding because translators chose one meaning over another a millennium ago, is anybody's guess.

 

[English Lady]

Now I have seeen half of this film (waiting for hubby to get the other half) I am up to the bit where the roman soldiers are flogging him. Yup it's graphic. Yup it's bloody and I can't deny that...is it completely neccesary to the film? Well I won't know that till I finish it will I.


As for the Jews being at fault it doesn't mean the Jewish race en masse. In fact It was the jews in positions of power that plotted to get Jesus killed that seems to me to be quite clear in the Gospels. Pilot was just trying to do the best thing to stop an uprising...that was his job. It doesn't make him any less guilty mind. He could have stopped it if he really wanted to....but he was thinking of (in his mind ) the bigger picture and the fact he'd be in trouble if there was an uprising of any sort within the jews.


Now call me niave but i didn't see this anti-jew thing at all. I just saw lots of angry people beating the crap out of Jesus....buth Roman and Jew.


Now to be honest most of smutpen's and pure's posts go over my head....totally so infact*L* I told you i wasn't that intelligent didn't i?*L*


SmutPen...as for the genisis theory....eh?

God doesn't lie....

in Genesis 2: 16-17


And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."


So God told them...eat the fruit and you cop for it big time!


Ok so Genesis 3 goes like this: (I use the NIV version btw)

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
The man said, "The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,

"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

To the woman he said,

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'

"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.
The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


Now my take on this is that.

The devil came along and said.

"bah humbug! you won't die...you'll be on an equal footing with God and he doesn't want that"


Eve looks at the fruit....decides it looks damn good...and well ultimate knowledge of good and evil sounds like a good thing...so she gives into the tempatation and has a bite.....she persuades Adam to have a go to and then suddenly BAM! they have guilt.

Naked is symbolic I think. They realise they have done something wrong and they realise that God will be able to see it as sure as he can see their naked bodies...so they hide themselves. They don't want God to know what they've done. You know how children often cover there mouth when they lie...to hide it....this is what Adam and Eve were doing by covering their bodies...well thats my take anyway*L*

Notice then how both Adam and Eve shift the blame....they don't confess their sin and ask for forgiveness...because now they know they've done wrong and surely knowing that they know the consequences...banishment. Oh and they were so eaten up by shame and guilt they didn't even seem to think about going to the tree of life and living forever....they we're to concerned with hiding their disobedience.


God didn't lie. They ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and they surely would die. He knew what the knowledge of good and evil would introduce into Adam and Eve's life...guilt and responsibility. He knew they could not live forever as the guilt/worry/shame would kill them in the end....and it would be sheer agony for them to live forever with that....so he banishes them and gives them a way to actually get to Heaven...via the sacrifice.


Thats how I see it anyway.



Ok I've spent hours on this this morning..I'm going to let my brain cool down now*L* Any questions.....just ask and i'll answer'em to the best of my ability later*L*

 

[English Lady]

PS....thanks Shereads...I'm just doing my best....God's doing the rest

 

[shereads]

Because if God is actually omnipotent and perfect, it seems to me that God wouldn't be bound by the rules that theologians use to justify theological dogma, would he? He could abide sin the same way a loving parent abides it in their children, correcting it on a case by case basis with the intention that the child will grow up to be a good, moral adult. An omnipotent God would be able to guide us in our free will directly, because he's omnipotent.

I had the same questions when I was a child, but I kept them to myself because my church taught me that questioning meant you lacked faith, and lacking faith meant you were doomed. An oversimplification, maybe, but that's how it was presented in the place where I was instructed. I spent a long time trying to be an atheist, but I realized I don't believe there is no god. I don't see proof of God's existence as he's described in the Bible. But until science can explain why anything and everything exists - and why life evolved and why life struggles to create and recreate itself - then there's also no reason to believe there is not a creator of some sort behind it all. In another thread a few months back, Gauche pointed out the absurdity of that reasoning as an argument for the existence of God. But that isn't why I believe there is something more to us than meat and bone and gonads. I believe it instinctively, as you probably do - not because of anything I've been told, but because there are things like conscience and compassion, that exist independent of people's religions or lack of, and regardless of culture and ethnicity. Almost every child and most adults will acknowledge a basic understanding that it's wrong to make people or other creatures suffer unnecessarily; and that it's good to create art and music and things that have no benefit if our only purpose is to keep replicating our DNA.

I never put those thoughts into any reference frame that made sense of them, until I became friends with a very spiritual person whose beliefs are not based on any one religon, but on what he's gleaned from being brought up Catholic, rejected it, studied theology and Eastern religions and engineering, turned to Buddhism - and concluded that Buddhism didn't satisfy him fully because it led, ultimately, to nothing.

When my dad was dying, and I was torn between a lack of faith and the desperate need to believe that my mother's version was true - that she and my dad would be reunited - I was so frustrated because I wanted to believe, to stop questioning, and couldn't. This friend said, "It doesn't matter if you believe in god. If there is a god, a creator of you and everyone else, he believes in you." He made the comparison others have - of god as the parent - and said he rejected the old testament description of god long ago, because even the most neglectful parent wouldn't condemn a child to eternal hell for even the most grievous failure. My friend has a view of god that I've derived tremendous comfort from - and I've stopped fighting it, stopped comparing it to the frightening view of god and hell and heaven that I was taught as a child and couldn't bring myself to believe no matter how threatened I felt by my failure to believe. Like you, I had always questioned why a loving creator would make us so flawed. Why make us capable of letting him down? My friend asked me to imagine an intelligent presence in an otherwise empty universe - He/it would be lonely, would create other spirits from pieces of his own - like tossing sparks into the darkness, for the joy of seeing some of us recognize him in each other and bring some light to the darkness. He would have to make us fallible, because if we were perfect we would not be capable of loving god or each other by choice. We'd be robots, and the loneliness of the creative spirit would not be helped at all by having created us.

It's a view of creation that settled a lot of unanswered questions for me. There is no judgement of us, because the creator of whom we are all a part, knows our frailty and knew we'd make mistakes. He doesn't decide who gets sick and is cured, and who dies; doesn't set obstacles in our path to test us. Is sad when we suffer, is deeply sad when we're deliberately cruel to each other, but is infinitely patient because he has all the time in the world. He takes joy in our love of each other, our creation of art and music , our enjoyment of sex and dirty stories. The only hell is of our own making; outwardly, it's what we're doing to each other that shows up on the nightly news; inwardly, it's when we inflict our own punishment on ourselves by giving up on each other and becoming isolated from the bond that connects us.

Self-serving? Sure it is. It's a bit like my nephew making up new rules for checkers whenever he was losing. But it also is the first interpretation of a creator and the relationship of all life that instantly made sense to me. I could be wrong, but if I am I don't think there's going to be a hot-foot at the end of it and a horned man with a pitchfork. It's just as likely that there's nothing at the end, just a long dreamless nap. And that will be okay too.

Didn't mean this to be a sermon, but when I see someone suffering through the doubts that bothered me throughout my childhood and young adulthood, I like to propose other options so you won't torture youself if you're unable to accept the biblical view.

 

[English Lady]

Thanks for the Shereads you've put alot of yourself in that post